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How do Pocket PCs stack up to handheld consoles?

I did a quick search but didn't find anything about the PSP or DS that I could view at work, besides maybe the PSP having a 333Mhz core and a 166Mhz core for graphics. I'm curious as to how PPCs compare to the current handheld gaming systems.
I realize that emulators have to run on top of the operating system, but lets say there was a way around that - perhaps loading a secondary, minimal OS that would allow for more resources to be allocated to the emulator/platform.
Could a PPC device stand with or surpass these current handheld consoles?
I guess an even more direct question would be:
When do you think PPC will advance to the point that it can also serve as a game system in much the way these handhelds do?

dont know much about ds and psp
but if they have special chips to handle
tasts like graphics and sound
their software is spicial written to handle those tasks
and a emulator have much much more overhead then the os they run on
everytime the bins of the software say "mov register0x0f to alu1" or something like that it have to be wrapped to whatever register and value
the emulator's hardware support

IMHO, a massive no.
When I bought my PSP I was horrified as to the massive difference between graphics and presentation on the dedicated device compared to a PDA. The PSP blows all current pocket PCs away in terms of graphics capabilities - the old established standard for pocketpcs didn't require any form of specialist hardware acceleration. Unfortunately, games are increasingly moving over to 3d and high CPU load processing (on PCs and consoles), and "old" PDAs were not designed with that in mind, or to address that.
However, have a look at some of the PDAs that have come out with dedicated high end graphics processors built in, eg the Dells.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/games/98674-x50v-x51v-2700g-accelerated-game-list.html
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=661&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
With the dedicated Intel 2700g graphics look good, but still not quite as good as a PSP.
The newer line up of PDAs will probably have better chips, but until Microsoft starts to mandate some kind of hardware benchmark for the platform, it'll still be more of a productivity/enterprise device, that also plays some games well. So it's more of a jack of all trades, quite good at some.
IMHO.
V

The O2 XDA Flame has a NVIDIA® GoForce® 5500 3D Hardware Accelerator I have not seen or tested it but it must be impressive.
http://www.seeo2.com/product/XdaFlame/template/XdaFlameProductInfo.vm

but it only does any good if the software is made to take advantage of it
otherwise it will still be the cpu doing all the work
ms is not really ready with a true dx for wm yet
and any game maker who put alot of work into supporting it only have a rather small market

Rudegar said:
but it only does any good if the software is made to take advantage of it
otherwise it will still be the cpu doing all the work
ms is not really ready with a true dx for wm yet
and any game maker who put alot of work into supporting it only have a rather small market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What exactly does this mean? I've been looking into code for DirectX in PPC and some of the samples I've seen have had the software check for hardware support.
Still, theoretically, if a high-end PPC with 400-600MHz CPU and a GPU with very little overhead, one would think that a descent game could be created.

I just got done playing Wolfenstien on my 8525 .. which is 400mhz and such .. and it kind of sucked.. lol..

The gap between PSP and PPC is so huge, it can't even be classified in the same device category. The PSP simply put is a real gaming portable, the Pocket PC is a PDA. No ifs and buts about it.
Now the DS, that's a lot closer to the PPC, and I would say many PPC models push out better visuals and audio compared to what a DS can provide. But don't expect any games on the DS to run on the Pocket PC!

Touch Pro performance

Let's talk about the Touch Pro performance.
I will post some quotes.
branko.savic said:
Ok, so just to be fair I did some more testings on all three of my devices to find the optimal settings, here is the results:
Test performed on same video, with coreplayer 1.2.5, and optimal settings for each device:
Omnia:
Raw framebuffer: 442.74%
Universal:
Direct Draw: 165.28%
Touch Pro:
QTv display: 152.44%
Smooth Zoom and Dither turned off on each device!
So in conclusion, again Omnia wins by a huge 277.46% over the next best device that is the Universal. And even then the Universal is 12.84% better then the Touch Pro!
Please bare in mind that the Universal is a three years old device with only 64MB ram, while Touch pro is brand new and 288MB ram! They have same clock speed but Touch pro is supposed to have a better/newer chipset then the Universal!
There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Touch pro is missing the video drivers, or could it just be that qualcomm chipset just sucks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DSF said:
poor directdraw, framebuffer/video performance. Just to make an idea: an old device from 2005 with omap 850 200mhz CPU performs better in this area than the touch pro @ qualcomm 528mhz. what a shame. The test were done in this topic (in romanian, sorry). CorePlayer was used for benchmark. I will summarize.
- HTC Tornado overclocked (262Mhz) max performance: 174.22%
- Touch Pro max performance: 172,67%
Both in Raw framebuffer mode. When used QTV it gains only 162,64%. How come?
It's pitty, 262Mhz from OMAP performs better than 528!!!Mhz from Qualcomm?!
The video used for tests is this one. (320x240 @ 25FPS)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do you think? Are the qualcomm chipsets just junk or we got poor drivers? Personally, I was hoping that HTC did learn something after the HTC TyTN II issues..
Another prove of sh*ty graphics on touch pro: Touch Pro landscape redraw issue (videos included)
Furthermore I would like to make some recommendations to see the true performance of touch pro:
- Rats!! http://clickgamer.com/download.htm?pvid=15358
- Ubulis TSE http://www.ionfx.com/product_windows_mobile_obulisTSE.htm (note the req: "200Mhz CPU or higher"
- Spore
- Prince of Persia HD
- Assasin Creed HD
- etc.
Wonderfull, the graphics are so fluid... NOT.

How about GL benchmarks between the iPhone, Kaiser, Raphael, and Toshiba G810 Portege?
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....ser)&D3=HTC Touch Pro&D4=Toshiba G810 Portege
A lot of it is the quality of HTC's drivers since the Portege does better, but the rest is Qualcomm's fault because even the Protege is inferior compared to an iPhone, N95, etc etc.
However, I cannot find a better phone that has a decent 3D chip on it, has at&t 3G, touch screen, and isn't NDA locked.

If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!

NuShrike, Touch Pro has a newer CPU that the one found on Toshiba G810 Portege, however, the benchmarks are still unsatisfying.
Here's some interesting information
Q: HTC, Qualcomm and the missing drivers—where do we send the angry mob with torches?
A: Qualcomm has a tiered pricing policy with their chipsets—so although you bought the chip, you have not bought all the features. So you have to pay additional fees per phone to get things like aGPS, graphic acceleration, etc.
In the past, HTC had no problems when using the older MSM-6500 chips (ARM9 processors) without drivers hence their reluctance to pay for any or additional support with the new MSM-7500 chips (ARM11 processors), especially since the newer processors were advertised to match or outperform the older generation.
Unfortunately, Qualcomm’s ARM11 performance does not match their previous ARM9 processor and is therefore, not quite as advertised. To get the proper performance out of the ARM11, one has to have knowledge of the processor’s implementation and design, but since that processor is not publicly available; the solution requires cooperation and assistance. HTC in this instance does not have this knowledge and is therefore unable to directly fix the problem, so they are put in a tough situation as they already have millions of these devices sold but they don’t want to pay Qualcomm more than they have to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full article: http://wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/qualcomm_htc_chipsets_and_feat.html
And here we've got a comparison between touch pro and dell axim v51v (a VGA PocketPC from year 2005).
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....whide=true&D1=HTC Touch Pro&D2=Dell Axim X51v
(I've bold the VGA because there are some users that are trying to find excuses of poor performance because of VGA resolution)

branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Qualcomm owns wcdma! Anyone developing chipsets will have to pay them royalties which in the end increases cost of the chips and handsets.

branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They probably make their hardware really cheap compared to other solutions.
There aren't many others (or at all) that package 3G WCDMA, asymmetric dual-core ARM11/ARM9, GPS, (WiFi?), BT?, and 3D GPU all into one at a pretty good power envelope.
The problem sounds like it's $$$ to access any of Q's advanced features, and they're not even that good.
Funny part is the CPU design was licensed from ARM in 2002 and is only hitting mainstream last year with the Kaiser/N95. However, it seems Qualcomm never licensed FPU capable ARM11 design, versus TI (N95 cpu) and Samsung (iPhone cpu) whom did.

If the video issue was the only problem...
Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)
I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).
An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.
It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)
I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!
BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM
What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..
then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.
Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused

Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.
And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.

Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..

DSF said:
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?

The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they
marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different
story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.
I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.

@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..
No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.
@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.
Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.
So..
I've made more comparisons.
Quake III Arema
Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA
TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: PowerVR MBX
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA
Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004
Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)
Same emulator on both devices.
The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.
HTC Tornado (SPV C600)
TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?

Point taken....the only response I could say would be HTC & graphics DON'T go together LOL...
DSF said:
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I saw some xperia drivers posted once that people were saying made the touch pro run better. Anyone ever look into this?

i'm from Diamond forum, but totally get what you're all saying here

I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....

Ouzo said:
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them
so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!
And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..
Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing..
And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....

Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.
Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.
I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.

Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.
C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!

i do agree.
i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.
what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.
THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.
best regards
Kevin

Qualcomm - numbers, promises and lies

Well, we know the under-performing WM devices with qualcomm CPU, especially when coming to graphics. For example the MSM7200(A) & MSM7201A devices, such as: HTC Touch Pro, HTC Diamond, HTC HD, HTC TyTN II, etc
Reading different docs from qualcomm:
QUALCOMM provides wide range of best-in-class integrated
graphics solutions with the MSM7200 comparable to the DS
or PSP
APIs Accelerated: OpenGL ES 1.0 Common + some OpenGL ES 1.1, Direct 3D Mobile, SM2, JSR 184, BREW Render2D, Direct Draw, GDI
“Qualcomm Announces Highly Integrated Dual-CPU Single Chip Solutions for High-Performance Multimedia Wireless Devices”
“The 7xxx series addresses the growing consumer demand for higher-performance wireless devices delivering high-quality audio-visual and 2D/3D gaming”
“Very high performance 2D and 3D graphics, and video encode and decode support”
Peak performance: 3D: 4M TRIS /SEC, 2D: 133M PIXELS /SEC
Source:
http://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2003/press1217.html
http://sakajati.com/download/?nav=display&file=70
You can see how pathetic performs such a qualcomm device here: http://www.youtube.com/sergiowmo . You can find many videos where I've tested different games. They say that the graphics is comparable with PSP.. just look at the emulators comparison.
Where is the promised graphics performance?
Can this company be sued because of these notorious lies?
I'm starting to hate this company more & more (qualcomm). I don't care if htc has to pay for drivers, etc. They should provide what they promise. And anyway TP, Diamond comes with openGL HW drivers.. and let's be real, the performance is extremly poor in comparison to other HW-enabled devices (older devices, devices with lower CPU).
What irritates me more is the high graphics performance Qulacomm is advertising and in reality perform so badly. In other words I hate when someone is misleading and lying such way.. Just thinking at PSP (PlayStationPortable) comparison..

I learned my lesson with the HTC Touch Dual, the models of the brand are beatifull, but slow and dumb, like that crazy blond you will always stay away from, in the future.

It's not qualcomms fault, the devices might be capable of this performance, but it's HTCs fault, which refused to pay for drivers.

But the latest htc devices DOES have driver for 3D graphics. They have OpenGL hardware libraries and I'm really not satisfied with the 3D performance.
I've already seen this excuse so many times.. but ALL WM the devices that are using Qualcomm CPU are worse. Other vendors such as LG, TOSHIBA. All those companies haven't payed for the drivers? There's something in the middle..
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....tege&D2=HTC P4550 TyTN II (Kaiser)&D3=LG KS20
What's with this qualcomm crap policy? Haven't heard anything like this from Marvell, to promise something and in reality to be something else.
The 2D graphics aren't hardware accelerated indeed.. at least this is how it looks..
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .

Excellent thread. Just a couple of things to bear in mind though:
- There are developers working on graphics here.
- The Mobinnova ICE and LG Incite are both said to have the same processor as the SE X1 Xperia, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro and the HD, i.e. the Qualcomm MSM7201A 528Mhz processor. Hence we should wait for reports from owners of these devices to see if any drivers have come to fruition. The reason I say this is because in the past, it seems some drivers were taken from the LG KS20 (same MSM7200 400Mhz processor as TytN 2, Touch Cruise, Touch Dual and Sprint CDMA Touch) in the past for the aforementioned.
However, this is an important thread, so please keep it going, unless Qualcomm can clearly not be brought to account here.

DSF said:
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was playing around with an Omnia at the local Verizon Wireless store [only US carrier to offer it], and I was really f**kin impressed! The camera was as responsive as a good digital, and the screen/mouse combo is beautiful!

I am not an expert but I am totally agree withthe disapointing qualcomm...
Just let´s hope that HTC has noticed this and take it in mind for the next generation of 09 models just about to launch!
Great thread!

@nuke1 I've read that topic, but no resolution yet. Also, many people are benchmarking using diffrend D3D drivers, which is wrong, because that benchmark tool is using OpenGL not D3D (which is only a wrapper for OpenGL, D3D<=>OpenGL).
So.. we have 3D hardware accelerated drivers.. (unlike previous HTC devices, such as TyTN II) but we got poor performance.. I really would like to trust that porting the drivers from another device (eg: LG Incinte) will improve the (3d/2d) graphics experience on our phones.
@orb3000, actually they will continue the partnership with qualcomm, HTC is very proud of their colaboration, CEO Peter Chou said something like:
"qualcomm is one of our top very important ??? partnership ..
and i believe that this partnership will continue to go the next 10-20 years"
See http://www.qualcomm.com/who_we_are/success/index.htm#/HTC-video/ .
So, HTC seems preety happy with qualcomm solution.. yeah, i know that qualcomm provide a chipset (SoC) implementing various function, such as and not limited to: cpu, gpu, gps, wireless ...
Thanks guy for your support. Now let's spread to a global scale! I had enough of qualcomm lies or whateva.
@NotATreoFan I really hope that Samsung will focus on more powerfull WM devices and get ride of the damn proprietary connectors! Samsung really has potential.

I totally support this thread.
I bought my Diamond with a 528MHz CPU. This means, that this phone has to have a power of 528MHz CPU equipped phone. And I don't care how it will be done, and whether it will be in next models. Tbh I would feel screwed if they used the CPU in a better way in upcoming phones.
Also I wonder why we have 3D acceleration, but no 2D? Anyways, I feel we have some kind of 2D slowdown. My previous smart phone was a Siemens SX1 (S60, Symbian 6.1, 120MHz OMAP CPU, released in 2003 or 2004, 176*208 res). I was able to play fluent Sega Master System (SMS Plus S60, free and excellent) games with sound, nearly-perfectly fluent Picodrive (no sound for S60, some frameskip but no close to Touch Pro vids on youtube) and well, playable GBA (vBagX trial, commercial). Picodrive is not tested, Sega Master System via morphgear (atleast the trial) is less fluent, and GBA via PocketGBA has too much frameskip. And please don't tell it is everything because screen is X times bigger. Architecture of CPU should be better. Come on, we have also a CPU to emulate, sound, input... And I am pretty sure SX1's OMAP had no graphics chip inside.

Just wanted to jump in and make a quick small comment:
I have a vogue, it is terrible (speed, graphic performance etc..)
I also have android on that vogue, and when using android things are SSOOOO much smoother it blows my mind, and makes me realize how much is truly the fault of another MS crap product.
In android I can flick that screen to scroll in the browser and it is so smooth with never a single hiccup or anything of the sort...
My 2 cents,
Jim.

That's one of thereasons why SONY broke up with HTC
I guess SONY will continue to move on over the WinMo platform, maybe with another partnership with another company (ASUS?)
HTC should be worried now that SONY is in town
I bet we will start to see better devices as the second generation Xperia soon
An after having the tytn, diamond, etc, I can confirm the XPERIA performance blows away them all, OMG no comparison here: it's a step further

here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
it disgusts me that the 528Mhz Qualcomm chip that has 3D acceleration (but no working drivers) relies on the CPU core to do all the "desktop" windows drawing and even 3D (unless you hacked drivers).

Two things!
1. CPU or GPU overload?
Today I did a small test. I thought that if the CPU is overloaded any more load will slow down the emulator. So I fired up WMP with a MP3 and the emu. I felt no slowdown at all.
Don't forget we don't drivers for CPU. We need them for GPU.
2. HTC/Qualcomm vs math
MSM7201A can render 133000000 pixels a second.
A fluent gameplay is 60 fps.
By dividing 133M by 60 we get 2216666 frames each 1/60th a second.
VGA screen is 640*480 pixels = 307200.
So how much screens we can fill during 1/60 of a second? Let's see... 2216666 / 307200 = 7.215709635 screens to fill.
Where we lose 6 screens?

p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.

NuShrike said:
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they have different graphics hardware, yet we should be getting an experience that is at LEAST recognizable as in the same graphics ballpark as opposed to the pathetic sorry state we have now.

p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ah yes... need for speed mobile.. i need an fruit phone now!!

Oh yeah how great it is. I understand graphics are really great but controls are tragic. Playing this using accelerometer must be a pain. I played asphalt gt racing on iphone and I turned it off after 2 minutes (I'm surprised that I lasted this long trying to play it).
If apple want to make iPhone good for mobile gaming give it some psychical button or help guys working on iControlPad with it and release it ASAP.
For now iPhone is nice graphics but lacks at control.

Unluckily all phone manufacturers (including HTC) seem to get rid of d-pads.
What you got in Diamond is barely useful. Up/down is good, left/right is usable only with one hand if you want to be fast (left hand for right, and right hand for left), and the center button is easy to press.
back to topic: thanks to Qualcomm even if we had awesome joysticks we wouldn't be able to play better games with them.

If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing

Wishmaster89 said:
If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Poor dpad is inexcusable on a $800 device. You also must be a horrible Wipeout player.

i dont understand the hype of N97.

our HTCs has long been able to do things like weather... maps.. etc
why is N97 so hyped?

because its made by the biggest phone maker inthe world
and a lot of nokia user dont like to switch hanset brands
which means theyll have not had this amount of features
be nice to them though
they dont dont know there better phones

N97
The N97 is Nokias newest N series device.
N series is VERY famous for all in one smartphones that actually kick the crap out of all HTC's efforts.
lol sounds unbelievable doesnt it......Nokia....smartphone....cant be in the same sentance!
I had an N95 and I now own an N95 8GB. The N95 was my introduction into the symbian world.
Simple facts for you guys:
The n95 n85 all the old N series devices run S60 V3 operating system. After first round of updates etc this has been my favorite OS yet. Very stable very fast, very capable of multitasking - No touch screen on s60 V3. They run OMAP 2420's etc just like windows mobile. Oh but Nokia didnt feck us like HTC did without giving us proper drivers.
I play quake 3 arena full GL on my N95 - flawlessly connected to bluetooth mouse and keyboard and TV out.
Most N series phones have up to 5 MPXL Carl Ziess Camera's which are arguably the best in their range out of all manufacturers. My N95 is fully capable of recording VGA vids at 30 FPS.
All the N series devices have full in line remote controls for Audio playback (play pause stop rewind fstforward answer volume etc)
The N series devices have all been hacked at and all system files are accesible for enterprising users. (freeloaders rejoice - yes!)
The built in web browser supports flash video out of the box, its fast and works well.
Built in music player is flawless..
Most major apps have been ported to S60 V3.
- Coreplayer with support for my GPU on my N95? Yes!
- Mobipocket for ebooks! Yes
- Opera mini? Yes
Its rare that I find things that work on smaller windows mobile devices but not on S60 V5.
So, the old N series devices have a huge following. The N86 with its 8mpxl 128 ram and tiny form factor is probably the best mini smartphone in the world in terms of raw power - multimedia capability and functionality....
I was waiting for the N97 thinking that it would push the envelope further.
The N97 runs S60 V5 which is now part of the symbian foundation and has gone open source. This means its very cheap for users to make apps for it.
The main difference is that users cant develop app and send it round for people to install......just like the err SDK certs was on older windows mobile - you couldnt install somehting unless it was signed! It is posisble to sign apps for your own device but you have to spend 10 mins researching. Easy really.
So this N97 has S60 V5 which is a touch smartphone OS based upon all that Symbian has learned throughout S60 V1 V2 V3 and UIQ....
So when I found out that the N97 was running the SAME CHIPSET! OMAP 2420 with a faster processor and NO DEDICATED 3D chip!!! I WAS SHOCKED!!
In some ways it seems like its a step back from previous gen with the Power VR chips.....
So after investigation I found that the Samsung i8910 Onmia HD actually is the REAL world evolution of the N95. It is running OMAP 3 not 2 and has a FULL power VR SGX chip (same chip as IPony 3 G S. Which might be a pale comparision of the OMnia HD - I have not played with one yet....
The omnia HD also runs S60 V5 (same as Nokia 5800 and N97)
I think this OS is going to be a very very big contender over the next year.
The main selling point of the N97 is that it has full functionality out of the Box.
It comes with proper facebook support and social networking apps that all sit on the home page. All easy to access and very swish...
It has proper keyboard and all the old N series reasons to keep - Carl ziess optics with a proper camera......proper music player with inline remote.
Its also not bloated OS so will have plenty of multimedia power....
If someone seriously offered me a touch pro 2 or a N97 the N97 would be first choice. Why would I want a nice phone, nice screen substandard MP3 player some stupid adapter - no 3.5 jack. No decent camera....mutimedia playback which is less powerfull than my old i900 omnia......
Then on top of that, using HelloX you crack the N97 and customise to your hearts desire. Download install what you want, rip it chop it hack it.......
2 years ago I would laugh at someone telling me that they would get a Nokia over HTC. I would say - yeah go get a expensive brick that cant do anything.....
Now days the simple facts - 3.5 jack, similar fully customisable OS and installable apps, proper camera.....all sell it to me. Gotta be slightly blind to think Nokia dont deserve some kudos for their devices - even if they cocked up a bit with N96 and now potentially N97 without Omap 3 and Power VR
Palm pre and iphone 3g S and Samsung i8910 are the beasties to watch!

well said ^^^^. Though i think My old touch is more customizable. And yes palm pre, and new omnia range rocks.

yarod.. it is less laggy?? because my experience from the s60s .. n82 etc is somewhat not so good

Symbian is really similar to Windows Mobile - an OS from the dark ages.
But they've shown a lot better progress and growth since the launch of the iPhone than Windows Mobile.

yeah, I remember everybody being jealous about 7650 all these years ago. Multitasking and copy&paste. See, it took apple over 2 years to add these. I stopped to like symbian just after the new version being released (few apps, first phones were slow, etc.) So sold my 3230 and got myself Wizard.
They lost it few years ago and now catching on again, but I fell in love with these crappy htc devices, windows and that messing around :]

yarod_g14 (or anyone), Does Symbian have anything like bluetooth mono for their devices? This is what I would miss the most if I were to switch to the n97. As much as I like how the Omnia Pro sounds, I think I'll be getting a tilt screen, so that means the TP2 or the N97.

Hmmm The N97 may well be a good device but it's still missing soo much. The default browser has no copy and paste from a web page and as we speak you have the choice of opera MINI or the rather painful safari which has to be said is useless at caching pages...wait wait and wait some more and thats just to view a page you looked at not 2minutes earlier! Again as we speak, you cannot view different video formats..I certainly wouldn't pay 500pounds for a device that can't play .mpg, xvid etc ok I know coreplayer will arrive but still!! Then that all conquering n97 has a terrible office suite..show me a symbian app with even 10percent of softmakers functionality. Symbian apps are in the lightweight category. The user accessible RAM seems on the low side too. Symbian in it's current state is too closed...very little quality freeware and users cannot fix os flaws. I do dig the design though....

"I think this OS is going to be a very very big contender over the next year."
The biggest problem with Symbian when I had my N95 is that apps weren't back compat. Symbian v2 apps wouldn't work on V3 and vice-versa.
I also had the N95 and the N95 8GB. Although Symbian is OK it's not as fast and bug free as you make it out to be. The N95 constantly crashed, rebooted, gave me "sim not inserted" errors. Sometimes it lagged and was slow. This was consistant in all symbain devices I had, N70, N73, N80, N95 and N95 8GB.
To the OP. I don't know weather you're American or not but Nokia is BIG in Europe hence the hype of the N97. Nokia are THE mobile phone company to be honest. They've been around for donkeys years and introduced a whole load of concepts to the mainstream... Changeable Fascias, Cheap Colour Screens, WAP on the 3330. Also IMO they were the first company to bring a Smart Phone into the Mainstream. Before they early Nokia Symbian phones all there was was Windows Mobile and that was Business Orientated.

Is your smartphone faster than your PC?

Just to get it out there, I'm not a complete idiot, obviously this is debatable due to architectural differences and what have you but I think we're at the stage where modern phones can hold their own against the average PC.
For example my laptop (AMD-E450 1.65GHz dual/Radeon 6850/4GB RAM) plays 1080p video with a lot to be desired. YouTube 1080p plays at low fps, and local 1080p is just straight up lag.
A lot of our devices today can breeze through such tasks without breaking a sweat and we take it for granted!
What do you think? Is your smartphone 'faster' than your PC?

I was thinking the exact same thing the other day, while I agree with the different architectures between phone and PC, my phones blow it to hell as far as YouTube is concerned. Same as you really, sluggish lag on PC when handling 1080p but on my smaller devices it's a breeze. And my pc is not low end nor high end by any means.

Sometimes my Smartphone is faster even than my PC, who has a AMD Phenom II X4 955 BE processor, 4GB of RAM. But of course I can't complain too much because I am on my PC one of heavy users, and on my smartphone - not. And on the future perhaps I will upgrade my PC (especially RAM) :silly:

When comparing raw performance, x86 will almost always beat out ARM (the type of processor in your phone). When comparing performance per watt, ARM beats x86 -- that's why your phone usually outlasts your laptop.
However, there are a few other different reasons for the gap in performance.
1 - Hardware decoders. Most smartphones, in order to save CPU power and wattage, include video decoders in the hardware. That way, whenever you want to watch a YouTube video, the dedicated chip takes care of the processing and CPU usage remains minimal. On the PC side, hardware video decoders usually only appear in some types of video cards. Chances are, if you have a cheap, $349 notebook, you've got minimal processing power to start with, and the CPU gets stuck with everything.
2 - Software. If you took the same computer you have today and put a Linux distribution on it, you'd probably get better raw performance than Windows with the usual Windows overhead + PC maker crapware + spyware infections + whatever other applications are in the background combination I usually see. I say "probably better" because there are always PCs with hardware that isn't fully supported yet, which causes performance issues particularly when it comes to video hardware.

i have been thinking of this for some time now. but compared to my computer, my computer is way faster with an intel i7 2700k and a radeon hd 7870 but compared to some laptops and low end desktops our phones can handle just about the same thing that they can handle. our phones can play some nice graphic games like real racing 3. im sure that game would make some low end computers lag at playing that game

not fast but i can play amazing spiderman and the dark knight in my phone
but cant play it in my pc :/

I have no idea, as Android still can't run Windows games. (What I wouldnt give to be able to run Skyrim on my tab... Splashtop is useless without wifi.) But the blame for that lies with game developers, not Google or Android itself.
I need to replace the gpu in my laptop as it's starting to become a bottleneck, (gt 130m), but other than, my laptop is probably faster.
Also, screen resolution on my phone is WAY lower than my computer, so it's a seriously unfair comparison, lower resolution always means higher framerate, as it has to render less.
On an 1280x800 screen, it only has to render 74% of a Full HD video, as opposed to the full 100% (and more) on a 1920x1400 screen.
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yeah , my pc is just like a slow runner(need to find new one !!!!) , my new xperia is just like ALIENWARE !! Thanks SONY Corporation

I think PC is faster. My alienware beats the s**t out of my note 2 anyday.

My PC is faster.
I can certainly see that this is not the case for everyone. My friend's laptop can't run a DS emulator very well, my phone can at about 2/3 speed, and my PC can at full speed.
My PC can run both an HD Game of Thrones rip (we own it on Blu Ray) and run the Dolphin Game Cube emulator playing Twilight Princess at full speed - at the same time.
And it's not even that great a PC - it's just a mid-range gaming set-up that I built because I wanted to play GW2 and Skyrim (not the most demanding games) at maximum shininess.

Did some googling and it appears today's phone CPUs would be equal to about a Pentium D computationally.
You need a few more generations to really close the gap. Any perceptions of them being faster is based on the overall architecture of the phones.
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PC faster, my galaxy mini is slow, galaxy w is normal
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Additions from a stranger
crayz9000 said:
When comparing raw performance, x86 will almost always beat out ARM (the type of processor in your phone). When comparing performance per watt, ARM beats x86 -- that's why your phone usually outlasts your laptop.
However, there are a few other different reasons for the gap in performance.
1 - Hardware decoders. Most smartphones, in order to save CPU power and wattage, include video decoders in the hardware. That way, whenever you want to watch a YouTube video, the dedicated chip takes care of the processing and CPU usage remains minimal. On the PC side, hardware video decoders usually only appear in some types of video cards. Chances are, if you have a cheap, $349 notebook, you've got minimal processing power to start with, and the CPU gets stuck with everything.
2 - Software. If you took the same computer you have today and put a Linux distribution on it, you'd probably get better raw performance than Windows with the usual Windows overhead + PC maker crapware + spyware infections + whatever other applications are in the background combination I usually see. I say "probably better" because there are always PCs with hardware that isn't fully supported yet, which causes performance issues particularly when it comes to video hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to add to what this poster has already stated:
3 - Possessor Channels. They are kinda like interstate highways for programming languages that pass information that is recognized as a supported without a whole lot of extra emulation or superfluous handling. Apparently ARM has many more channels than IBM or AMD; google it and be surprised.
4 - Openstack. Why compare differences and get all caught up with what can and can't be done on an individual hardware set-up(s), instead lets join them all together into one virtual machine and never worry about speed or ram again.. this is what I'm working on and there is promise that one day we will all be able to run any program or operating system with any collection of old hardware.

my HOX now with viperx 3.6 is iqual in speed to my laptop.(lenovo p4)

My pc still faster
Sent from jamban umum.

Yeah I agree my HTC is faster than my old P4 Windows XP.

Well, yes. Nexus One 1GHZ 512MB RAM vs Athon 850Mhz 364MB RAM

My htc desire plays 720p 10x faster than my P4 desktop. It's a real shame, my mother paid 3 grand for that HP back in 2004. Look at the progression of technology...

It's a shame that my phone faster than my PC ,, but thanks to my PC i can finish my assignments faster.. can i use phone to do it ?LoL :what:
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pc: 4gb ram dragon, ati radeon hd 4870, amd phenom quadcore, disk Samsung 1tb with linux mint 14 nadia xfce enviroment. vs galaxy s3 i9300
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