Related
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/what.s-w...ow-wm7-and-wm8-are-going-to-fix-it-333536.php
Very interesting article
Wow, that was a great article! The author hit his points right on the head. Sounds like WM8 will be the one to go for, however who knows how long that will take to come out.
Also, in the meantime HTC has to get their heads out of their asses and release some quality and speedy hardware! What the hell happened to the OMNi, the Universal successor?! There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old! On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise) but its ugly as sin and the build quality will most likely be lower than HTC...I also hear that i-Mate is in financial trouble now too...
Oh well, I have finally completed the process of flashing a new WM5 ROM that I'm happy with, and my Uni is working great for now. I just hope that the future looks good for WM8 and HTC...I'll be sitting in my waiting chair for now, to see how this all develops over time.
well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile#Photon_.282009.29
wm7 will be out next year so it could take awhile before wm8 come around
The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.
Thats how I feel too. I have very little problems but a new OS is always exciting. I know I was losing my mind the first time I found Faria's Crossbow for the wizard. That was my first taste of windows mobile 6 and it was great.
I almost wanna check out the ETEN x800. I havent seen any in the states. But im gonna keep my eye out. I love my Herm200 but hey thats got the memory of a 8925 and I think its like 500.
scar45 said:
There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old!
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I think I'll go back to the separated-device route. The iPAQ 214 for the workhorse, quality PDA and the Nokia N95 for the phone + GPS + camera + 3D hardware-accelerated gaming machine + HSDPA modem + push mail client.
scar45 said:
On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise)
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Too bad it's only PXA270-based... already outdated. A no-go for me. Why would I buy a non-PXA310-based device in 2008, when the iPAQ 214 already has the new CPU?
@Menneisyys
I think you may have made a tiny error, the iMate 9502 is the ugly one with a Qualcomm MSM7200 processor.
njakobs said:
The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.
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Click to collapse
Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.
2manyphones said:
Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.
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Click to collapse
I guess you are right in a lot of aspects. However, Apple's flaw (and quite possibly the iPhone's downfall) is the lack of capability for the power users. Both my mom and my brother have iPhones so I have had plenty of chances to mess around with them. Not only did I not find it addictive, but after using it for 10 minutes, I just put it down and started messing around with my Blue Angel (now 3 years old and running WM6). I personally consider myself a medium (on the salsa scale ) power user of WM, but after watching a couple of YouTube videos and scrolling through album covers with my fingers while tilting the device back and forward, I started thinking: "well, now what?"
There are numerous advantages of iPhones over WM devices and vice-versa, but the article is mainly comparing the WM interface with the iphone's interface, and that is what this is all about. M$ interfaces have been progressively getting worse over the years (or at least not getting any better), while Apple completely hit a homerun with their interface. This sole fact gave birth to the future of WM. If you do not believe me, check out the "development and hacking" section of this forum and tell me how many new UIs you can see floating around. I personally have 4 in my device (FreeStyle, PointUI, iTask (came out yesterday), and Slither's Cube.
Hopefully, they will be able to do something based on what is out there (i.e. HTC X-Button (true closing any app), PointUI, PocketCM, TCPMP, etc, etc...). But make no mistake, there is a lot to be done to our devices, and hopefully M$ truly knows about it and are planning to do something about it...
Long Live XDA-Devs!!!!
another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec
heck here kids write sms's on their phones even in school under the table so the teacher dont take their phones even if the iphone keyboard is easier to use the defualt ms tiny keyboard phone pad and normal phones got a better chance of being used "blindfolded"
I do agree, the WM UI sucks by default and the usability leaves a lot to be desired. The good thing is that almost anything is possible. Luckily HTC and the devs of this site have fixed a huge number of WM flaws. My Touch was pretty usable out of the box. The devs here improved it even more by adding PocketCM for example. I just flashed the Shadow Wm 6.1 rom yesterday and it's damn fast, like having a new phone.
I would like a better browser and a more finger friendly UI. PointUI looks very promising but still has some issues. We'll get there, it just takes a while.
I do think WM has made big improvements over the years though. I remember my first WM phone (Orange SPV, Smartphone 2002), it was the worst phone I ever had although it did have some nice things at the time. I swore I would never ever buy a WM phone again. This summer I fell in love with the Touch and keep tinkering with it.
Rudegar said:
another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec.....
"
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Very good point Rudegar, another reason the iPhone will never fly in Asia is the lack of stylus for writing Chinese characters. MANY people who buy a touchscreen devicedo so exclusively so they can handwrite characters. The iPhone is going to have to change a lot for that to happen. Really, people shouldn;t think about the iPhone so much. It's going to probably never even make it to the asian market, which frankly is such a large market that US iPhone sales don't even make a difference. The real powerhouses are going to continue to be the people who dominate the asian handset markets.
I been using the iphone today.....what a smooth operator...everything just flows...the page animations the opening of applications...the look and feel, the way touch works. The typing (mind you Cooteks Touch and icontact is on par with it )very impressive...it even takes batter pictures than the cruise and its only got a 2meg camera...using my cruise everything is laggy....I cant wait for the drivers or update. If people like larna and others can do wonders to the speed of applications then what the hell are original developers and manufacturers doing. I say thank you for this forum...If HTC/Microsoft had been thorough as Apple was with the iphone the cruise/WM would be a different beast altogether.
I think Microsoft must be going through what Mercedes and BMW went through when the first Lexus model came out and caught them sleeping.
Nice phone the iphone but very limited when compared to ours....but things could change.
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
I think a capacitive Display would help much. I'm often not sure if pressing a soft button worked. That makes working on it feeling laggy (beside slow program starts).
The WM developers have ignored any work on the UI for years. Now they got payback, the WM UI looks like an ugly Windows 95 UI and is totally outdated.
You can see that a smooth UI is possible by looking at pointui.
But do not forget the WM advantages.
All the availabe software, for example WMwifirouter.
That on iphone? I think it will never be...
Agreed....I can only fault Microsoft in Slow Deveopement....whereas the Manufacturers trying to make everyhing generic compatible instead of optimizing....now if they even aimed for the latter, no only would our devices be useably versatile, they would be decently fast and efficient.
We can only hope that WM7 will better developed for touch and hopefully not a memory hogger ...aka Vista.
On June 2008 the rumor say we will have a 3G Iphone + integrated GPS + open SDK. All for not more than $500 USD.
Nobody will touch the touch cruise with a stick at that point (unless the price will be reduced to $250, or something close). So I believe we're going to see new phones from HTC pretty soon.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
Noam23 said:
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
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I hate to say it but I think he's right.
I can and only will speak for myself, even though that may be the case for everyone else as well; but I use a WM based device because of the software. While the iPhone is faster, better looking, smoother flowing...as of right now it is locked down and requires hacks just to browse the file system!!
TheOnly1 said:
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are reffering to the current iPhone, i would have to say you are DEAD on. However, if the new one lives up to what people are saying about it (an SDK, gps, 3g),
Then apple would have successfully created something that achieves both outcomes: A cool device with a fast, smooth flowing UI WITH functionality and productivity.
remoh said:
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, it is up to the OEMs, not microsoft, to optimize windows mobile for each of their devices. This is where HTC fails time after time in my mind.
Microsoft gives them every opportunity to implement things accelerated graphics, among other things. HTC does not do it!!
And then has the audacity to blame the customers for buying devices based on their chipsets instead of what is actually implemented (or NOT implemented -- LOL).
Since my last HTC purchase of the Touch Cruise, which cost me almost $900 I am extremely upset and dissapointed, not to mention disillusioned. The kaiser and the TC could have been great, but HTC did not want them to be -- they are slow, clunky, unresponsive at times, and i don't see why HTC even put a camera on them 'cause the pictures and video are better left not being captured at all.
If the new iphone lives up to it's promises, i see no reason to ever purchase, nor use another htc product ever again. That is the thing though...Apple is one of those companies I just do not trust and/or like....but just having the possibility of a device like the new iphone will keep my interest peaked!
If everything goes as planned, I believe that mobile developers will definately take advantage of the SDK.
While it will take many months for all the developers out there to create good applications, it will happen.
I'll actually go as far as saying that iPhone software will in fact exceed that of WM software in the future -- Provided that apple releases a decent sdk and does not place absurd restrictions on developers.
Think about it...how long have WM devices been out for...and what is their popularity?
Compare that to how long the iPhone has been out for, and it's popularity...
While currently they are for two completely different concepts;
one for user friendly every day usage, and one a "business" device...
apple seems to be combining both concepts into something that I would consider a "dream" device that I have been waiting for from HTC to put out for years now.
I thought that the TC would in fact be something closely resembling my "dream" device -- And after I actually used it and saw all of the problems with it first hand, I quickly recognized I was completly wrong.
Let's see if Apple can successfully accomplish what HTC has consistently set out to -- and subsequently failed to do so many times.
If they can pull this off, I will definately consider myself a proud iphone owner / user.
i have to admit the only reason i did not buy an iphone its because i did not want to switch to at&t and evryone where i work has one. i just wanted something different so i bought the touch cruise. i am regreting it even as i type. 700plus usd down the drain. when the new iphone is out this summer i am definitely getting one and switching to at&t
i wish i could get my hands on one of the htc developers. i would beat the life out of him. for real. i am mad and pissed. even the clone iphone, the hiphone which i saw with my own two eyes and held in my hands is better than touch cruise. its only 200usd
There are a lot of Touch user using WM device not having too many complaint. I like UI and build of iPhone, but I never forget the experience what smart phone of Nokia and Sony Ericsson running in Symbian. People will just imagine what Apple will enhance the iPhone and offer what we have used in WM device. Just like people asking why manufacturer not offering VGA device. Why don't have a look of the delay of Sony Ericsson X1? Keep an eye on what Apple implement the SDK into their iPhone and software developer introduce program, and to compare what we have with WM device. Looking forward to have a device running in X OS with VGA display with weeks of power with plenty choice of softwares .... and lastly without lag. Just like years ago we are looking for a VGA WM device. Manufacturer like HTC will make such device if it can.
Are you guys serious about the Touch Cruise camera being poor? It has one of the best cameras I've ever seen on a mobile, save for the lack of flash.
-3 Megapixels
-Autofocus
-Excellent macro mode (try taking a picture of anything close up (~3inches) with this vs. a normal camera under normal lighting...TC holds its own, or better yet take a picture of something close up and compare those results to those of an IPhone)
-Auto switch to night mode in poor lighting (remember camcorders with night mode also exhibit lag in night mode, but normal cameras don't lag as they don't use a night mode since they have a flash!)
I must agree with Sonus on the camera. I actually printed out some pictures I took with my TC and they were pretty much OK on paper.
i do believe the tc is a very good device with advantages and disadvantages same as the iphone.
the thing that annoys me most (also while writing this text) the input lags in the touch keyboard or other apps, e.g. switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.
the good things are:
100% customization
tons of apps - navigation, wlm etc
lastly, i have see the iphone hanging - it could not connect immediately to wifi
I'm positive Apple is not going to put HTC out of business on June 2008, when the 3G iphone is supposedly coming out.
HTC will definitely release formidable competition on fall 2008, probably the dream machines we always wanted to have. My only complaint is that the Touch Cruise / Kaiser have the hardware to be much of that "dream machine", but aren't so because HTC doesn't think it is necessary since these products are competitive enough as it is, in today's market.
I agree with the only1.
Just think of it in business terms, the iphone and touch cruise are aimed at different markets. HTC could probably produce a iphone type device but why should it. HTC devices are more business orientated and sold as such, they are not (imho) trying to compete with consumer based ideas and what looks sexy when playing music or videos. They are aimed at different markets.
If people want a device to look good show off pictures and videos and play music they buy a iphone, for gods sake its a ipod touch that makes calls, so no comparison.
If people want to do all of the above and have a device that can be used as a great business tool buy a touch cruise.
Okay there are some faults but they will probably be fixed on the next device but that too will have its shortcomings and we will give out **** about it and compare it to the newest goddam wonderful iphone, jphone, kphone or whatever with hdtv or can make coffee but thats life. I know we paid big money for what we have but for jaysus sake its "not ****en dark". i.e. you could see what your were buying.
Just my opinion.
A bit strong maybe but thats life.
I dont know what you guys have done to your devices to make the camera so good, but unless i am taking pictures outside when it is sunny out, it will NOT come out clearly at all -- it is very distorted and grainy, not to mention it slows down to a crawl! I have a sony cybershot 2.1 MP camera from 2002 that takes better pictures than a TC cam -- and it cost about 150$ 6 years ago. When its dark or indoors, the LCD on the cybershot doesn't slow down to 1-5 FPS.
Now people say that the TC is a business device and that's true.
But, I for one am sick of trading off functionality for performance on the business devices produced from HTC.
Why can't it be both at the same time?
Unfortuneately, I did go in the dark on this one. Before I bought the TC I didn't research the video driver problems.
I only looked at the specs, researched the chipset and thought I was getting something that would (at least) out perform my PPC-6700 that I purchased over 3 years ago. I was wrong. I don't think HTC will go out of business...not at all, but i DO think that alot of people are in a similar boat that I am in...betrayed by HTC and will continue to hold a grudge against them, and subsequently switch to someone who can provide something better in the future...hopefully, that can be Apple...but I definately have some doubts to say the least, considering what the current iPhone came out as -- a Media player with a phone on it.
PseudoReal said:
switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.i
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Click to collapse
OMG, i have the SAME problem...it is the WORST!!
you have to tap the stupid triangle like 50 times just to get it to switch.
It's an atrocity. Devices from 3 years ago do not even have this problem.
Business device or not, this is just plain unacceptable.
Unless there is a fix for this problem, or I am doing something wrong and do not know about it?
How many ppl have similar experience?
I have that same problem. Takes multiple clicks and major lag to get the input keyboard to show up. The reason I have to chance keyboards is I often use Opera 9.5 and for some reason none of the Touch keypads work with it, so I have to switch them (I think that's another problem could be related to Opera still being beta). Also every once in awhile I can't get to the PocketCM keyboard and instead get the lame Windows default one. But that also is another problem.
Back to the lag, every once in awhile I will get lag here or there, e.g. will click on the task manager on the top right and not get anything, keep clicking around with no response. Then all of a sudden all the clicks take effect and I will see the task manager menu open and close in succession real quick.
All in all it's a good device, great functionality, just a few quirks here or there. Maybe it's time to hard-reset or flash a new ROM that might solve some of these things, who knows.
Oh forgot, as for the camera lag with the low FPS in low light conditions, check out this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=365345
HTH
thanks for that... the "trick" described in the first post does increase the response by 10 fps or so, but the thing is, the picture quality also goes down...its a lose/lose situation i guess lol...I also noticed that there is a new .dll fix on the HTC E-club, but only for the kaiser. I tried to login but it says theyre doing maintainance right now, so I can't check if there's anything released for the TC...even so I doubt there is
but my issue is, and always has been..why should i need to do all of these tricks and patches for a device that costs as much as the TC does? I shouldn't. No one should.
also another thing that came to my mind...people and HTC say this is a "business device"...so i was thinking, wouldn't business users want their devices to be MORE responsive than a media player / cool trendy "sexy" device?
I mean when you need to wait 5 seconds and tap the screen multiple times to play a music file, it's not really that big of a deal...it's an annoyance yes but it doesn't result in you losing work time..or a loss of productivity
but when you need to tap the X button 5 times to close out of a document and switch to your email...or taking notes and browsing web pages for work related stuff...or trying to switch between SIP's...and having to wait because the device lags worse than windows 95...it becomes a loss of productivity...
even if it's only seconds, those seconds add up, and the annoyances stock pile into one big ball of rage for me at least, heh.
I do admit that my own foolishness and quickness to buy a new device is partly to blame here. I should have looked into it more. But I also think that HTC holds a good part of the blame as well.
hopefully the geniuses here can come up with some good fast custom roms that will deal with these issues...i won't hold my breath waiting for this patch to come out from HTC at the end of the month. I'm doubtful that it will do anything at all.
I couldn't find the right place to put this thread, so I put it here in there general forum.
Any, I received my AT&T fuze today. I was using a BB Bold for a while, but I started missing WinMo.
Anyway, this fuze is nothing short of pathetic. My main gripe is the buttons just below the screen. The up/down/left/right buttons surronding the center button are absolutely awful. Right and especially left are almost impossible to push. Each time I try pushing the left button, I end up hitting the "home" button or "send" button. On the right, same thing, I end up pushing the back/ok button, and the end button. Its almost impossible to push the left arrow button.
I must say that BB's hardware eats any WinMo phone for dinner that I have seen. On the other hand, I like Winmo's OS much better than BB's OS.
Does anyone know of a solution for these awful buttons?
Also, I wouldn't mind changing phones. I just want a WinMo phone with TV-Out. The fuze has it. Any others?
I had an issue with the directional buttons, then realized I never had to use them ever again with a touchscreen.
They're completely pulled from the Touch Pro 2 (the Fuze is the original Touch Pro rebranded) as well as that center button, because they're kind of pointless to have on a PPC device.
The thing I hated about the Fuze was the PTT button being incredibly sensitive. I'd hit it a few hundred times a day and get the "PTT CHARGES MAY APPLY, JERKFACE" message.
I currently have an Xperia, and the only button I use is the hangup button to send me back to my home screen. Everything else just clutters the face.
your welcome
http://www.fuzemobility.com/learn-the-att-fuze-htc-touch-pro-d-pad-sweet-spot/
Thanks for the link, I will try it.
toiletduk,
Thanks, but I HATE touchscreen, I like buttons.
george9999 said:
...
I must say that BB's hardware eats any WinMo phone for dinner that I have seen. .....
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bit of a bold statement don't you think? Used them all have you? Every Winmo phone? Really? You sure? Wonder how many you have actually seen?
Monty Burns said:
bit of a bold statement don't you think? Used them all have you? Every Winmo phone? Really? You sure? Wonder how many you have actually seen?
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Click to collapse
I am 100% sure. And here is the list of the WinMo phones that I have owned:
IPaq (forgot the model) from waaaay back.
XDA Exec - Way to big
Palm Treo 750 - Was ok, but got old
AT&T Tilt Kaiser - Got old and too big
Palm Treo Pro - QWERTY keyboard was meant for baby sized fingers.
AT&T Fuze - Buttons are absolutely awful.
I think that qualifies me to have a valid opinion.
Like I said, I like the WinMo OS much better, but as for hardware, WinMo phones are awful. Mainly due to the touch screen, and now more recently that they are all trying to make pathetic imitations of the already lousy iphone.
This Fuze is absolutely loaded, and blows away almost any other phone that I have ever had features-wise. But the problem is that the buttons are so rediculously close, that it becomes very hard to use. Everything I do, I feel like I am playing the old kids game "operation". Hitting the sides is like hitting the wrong button on this phone. Whenever I speak on the phone, my face opens and closes a bunch of applications.
Why the hell do we still need styli. A trackball like blackberry would be much better.
Give me a good Winmo phone with the following, and I will buy it now!
3.5G Speed GSM that works in both US and Europe.
GPS
Wifi
Querty keyboard like palm treo (slider ok, but not if it means I have to rotate the phone sideways)
Real buttons, not flush buttons that make the phone look cool, but unusable and unpractical.
TV Out - This is the real hard to find one.
george9999 said:
toiletduk,
Thanks, but I HATE touchscreen, I like buttons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then a PocketPC is not for you. I would suggest something like the Samsung Jack or Epix, as they're WM Standard devices.
toiletduk said:
Then a PocketPC is not for you. I would suggest something like the Samsung Jack or Epix, as they're WM Standard devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought of that, but from what I understood (I may be wrong), the non pocket-pc versions of winmo are watered down versions, and a lot of the software doesn't work. I really liked the jack when I saw it. Any chance it has tv out?
That's really the problem.
You're not going to find TV Out on any WM Standard devices that I know of, and WM Pro is designed around use of the touchscreen. Standard is designed to compete with the Blackberry, which no models have TV Out that I know of as well. Pro is more geared to be the jack of all trades device for the end user and the corporate user.
And to correct my prior post, the Epix is a Pro device.
I was pretty anti-touchscreen for a while, but I got annoyed with scrolling around on my BlackJack II with the d-pad/wheel.
I ended up getting a Fuze for a while before I switched to an Xperia X1, and I can't really go back to a non-touchscreen device. Navigation is a lot faster with that interface, even if you're going one handed, and things become a lot less of a chore to do.
I could live with the fuse if the buttons we easier to click. Even playing Ms. Pac Man which comes with it from AT&T is almost impossible since my fingers keept hitting the 4 corner buttons by accident.
Maybe I'll try the experia. Does it have TV out?
Also, since I am still with the fuze, how do i lock the touchscreen when talking on the phone? The Palm pro had this option, so I am assuming that it is possible.
Thanks for the tips.
My understanding is that while there is some optimisation for finger use in WM6.5, there are other parts of the OS that are still best suited to a stylus. For example accurately selecting text in Word, or selecting a range of cells in Excel.
One of the reasons Apple took so long to come out with copy/paste in the UI is because they knew they had to make it work with a fat finger.
My point is that I wonder how wise it is to combine a capacitive screen with WM6.5 on the Leo. I'm sure it will work fine with the basic stuff, particularly in TF3D applications. However, if I can't easily use a finger for everything, then it's going to be a real pain either struggling to touch accurately with a finger or carrying around a capacitive stylus that I'll just lose after a couple of days.
What do you reckon?
How optimised? The short answer is "not very". By default, the WM6.5 finger-friendliness is only skin deep. A few clicks and you'll quickly find yourself back at the ancient ugly stylus-designed interface from 2002.
TF3D makes things much, much nicer, but no matter how much you customise WM, there are many applications designed only for stylus use. Pocket Informant, for example, is a very useful PIM - but is difficult to use with only fingers. Many, many pieces of third-party software out there are the same. Really only a few applications are truly designed for fingers rather than stylus.
This is a problem that WM can't really fix. It's just a byproduct of the OS's age - it's been around in various forms since at least 2000. For the most part, applications written 5 to 10 years ago still work on modern WM devices. This is compounded by the fact that modern WM phones are still shipping with styluses.
I suppose if WM7 requires finger-friendly support, then things will improve considerably from third-party software companies. But until then, things are pretty dire.
microsoft fired their director for windows mobile and is putting a fire under its mobile division's ass to make winmo7 a homerun. microsoft isnt sleeping on this anymore, expect big things next year for windows mobile...
I have a Touch Pro2 running a 6.5 ROM and I actually find that, in combination with the large WVGA screen, I rarely need the stylus even in applications made for previous versions of WM. Though TouchFLO helps, even when disabled I can still navigate without a stylus. However, occasionally finger precision isn't enough and I need the stylus, but for the most part, 6.5 is actually pretty finger friendly.
However, the 6.5 Build can make a huge difference with how finger friendly the ROM is, so it's not terribly accurate to say that all 6.5 builds are finger friendly when the features of different builds are so diverse.
Windows 6.5? Not very. Practically not at all. The outside is different but the insides are almost identical to 6.1
HOWEVER 6.5.1 is VERY finger friendly. There is a lot of difference and you can expect a lot more finger friendliness with the future builds of windows mobile.
I am really looking forward for more detailed reviews about Leo, especially working with tiny UI elements, which are still there in WM 6.5. Actually, the changes of 6.5 are minor and it is not nearly as touch optimized OS. And in all of this hype about Leo no one talks about how we are going to work without stylus on this device. There already are a couple previews and some videos with a lot of "wow’s" about the first capacitive screen with multi-touch zoom in WM, but no any word or demo about using Excel or some other application that has many small buttons or things to click, drag and move. And aren't exactly these apps the real power of WM not the useless fancy weather effects, beautiful scrolling gallery (out of use for more than 20 pics) or multi-touch zoom only in few apps? I am not sure if the capacitive screen is an advantage or at least not for Windows. Nevertheless, soon we’ll see if I’m wrong (hope I am ).
martoto said:
And in all of this hype about Leo no one talks about how we are going to work without stylus on this device.
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Well with my current 2.8" screen (Touch Pro) I genuinely can't remember the last time I had to get the stylus out to do anything. Moving to a device with over 2x the screen size, I can't see there being a big problem. Sure I'll be using more of my finger and less of the nail, but a >2x bigger screen should more than compensate for that!
That said, resistive is still probably going to be the technology of choice for smaller screens, especially since for a while at least MS plan for smaller(/cheaper) devices to stick with 6.x instead of 7.
As for 6.5's general finger-friendliness, it's ahead of 6.1 in some places but the difference isn't that big. 6.5.x is where the action is on that front, and at least we enthusiasts will be making the most of that, even if the average buyer won't be. Well, we'll be making the most of it until we first get the v7 leaks
mr_Ray said:
Well with my current 2.8" screen (Touch Pro) I genuinely can't remember the last time I had to get the stylus out to do anything. Moving to a device with over 2x the screen size, I can't see there being a big problem. Sure I'll be using more of my finger and less of the nail, but a >2x bigger screen should more than compensate for that!
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You can't use a nail at all on a capacitive screen, only skin.
I have a Touch Pro2 (3.6" screen) and I have to say that I use the stylus all the time - Opera 9.5 would be totally unuseable without it, and any time you start using a Windows app with radio buttons and checkboxes, the stylus is far easier. That would even more true if I couldn't use a fingernail for added accuracy compared to a finger. It remains to be seen how much difference WM6.5 and production Opera 9.7 make to that.
I for one, just don't know what Microsoft is doing with this half arsed attempt of a finger friendly OS,
They are shipping 6.5.....the OS looks like one of the worst put together it looks very very rushed (we know its not...they've had more than enough time)
HTC with thier TouchFlo is a far more elegant solution.
Microsoft can stick 6.5 where the sun don't shine....
No such thing as a finger friendly Microsoft OS...yet
mr_Ray said:
Well with my current 2.8" screen (Touch Pro) I genuinely can't remember the last time I had to get the stylus out to do anything. ...
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A very simple example with app that every WM has - the mobile Excel. Open a new file and try to change the row height without using a stylus or a nail. It is possible but not near as easy, isn’t it? On a twice bigger screen, the row border will be almost the same thickness. So here a bigger screen won't help. Just imagine that you need to work with a similar interface every day. Now, tell me is there anything that can be done with capacitive screen but cannot with resistive? Don't get me wrong, I know that if you work only with fingers, capacitive screens are far better. But here we have windows mobile, and for these users that often leave the TouchFlo to use the true power of windows, the lack of possibility of precise pointing on the screen could be a big issue.
martoto said:
A very simple example with app that every WM has - the mobile Excel. Open a new file and try to change the row height without using a stylus or a nail. It is possible but not near as easy, isn’t it? On a twice bigger screen, the row border will be almost the same thickness. So here a bigger screen won't help. Just imagine that you need to work with a similar interface every day. Now, tell me is there anything that can be done with capacitive screen but cannot with resistive? Don't get me wrong, I know that if you work only with fingers, capacitive screens are far better. But here we have windows mobile, and for these users that often leave the TouchFlo to use the true power of windows, the lack of possibility of precise pointing on the screen could be a big issue.
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I never claimed that my usage was a template for every other person on the planet, and would never think to do so. For *me* capacitive has a few advantages over resistive, and likewise a few disadvantages, it pretty much comes out as a wash. I'd stil be as happy with the HD2 if it had a resistive screen.
My use of Excel on the go is purely simple data entry or just viewing. There are also other ways to resize than clicking on and dragging a line a pixel or two wide. I also recognise there are many people who would find such things infuriatin with *their* usage patterns, applications, and habits.
This whole issue really highlights Microsoft's biggest issue in Windows Mobi... er Windows Phone today. It's a stylus-based PDA OS trying to be a finger-based phone OS. The heritage is based entirely in yesterday's PDAs - where it was fantastic for the job and thrashed PalmOS in the marketplace.
However there's been a gradual change in usage of the OS from PDAs to phones, and the underlying systems just haven't adapted to the changes. The UI today is much the same as it was in 2002. If you want your OS on a modern smartphone where people want to pull their phone out of their pocket and tap and slide with their fingers, you just can't get away with an interface and screen tech from a 2002 PDA.
Be one or the other - create a side branch for the dwindling userbase who want a PDA or PDA/phone if you have to - but the core of the OS itself if you want it on a phone - just has to adapt to survive.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. It seems to me that if WM6.5 is not fully optimized for finger use, which it's not, then HTC really shouldn't combine it with a capacitive screen. Simple as that.
Moandal said:
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. It seems to me that if WM6.5 is not fully optimized for finger use, which it's not, then HTC really shouldn't combine it with a capacitive screen. Simple as that.
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Well, that's a large part of the reason for TouchFLO/Sense UI, of course; WM6.5 by itself isn't sufficiently finger-friendly, but with the HD2's customised UI on top of it, it is (in HTC's opinion, anyway).
But is it just where the balance of their expertise and development lies? One looks at the HTC Leo and it looks like an android device.....lots of hardware supported under Android, but not under WM.....and the whole thing kludged together to work on an operating system with built in short term obsolescence.
It seems to me that we are in a transition period. Hardware too sophisticated for WM 6.5, but development of WM7 and Android not yet complete.
I think WM is a dead duck until (and maybe beyond) WM7, and the inroads that other systems can make between now and it's release will probably give an indication of the future direction of mass market smartphones.
Given the apparent inability of Microsoft to deliver a satisfactory platform for ordinary users and developers alike, and Androids success in doing exactly that (although still early days), I see it going only one way for the mass market.
I've bought my last WM phone (I think). It was Blackstone.
in short like only 1 or 2 have already said.... 6.5 is not
6.5.1 [aka towards wm7] is very much finger optimised.
if u guys are not clear, then only the versions which have start buttons on bottom are 6.5.1 and can be used with one hand. 6.5 its a mixed bag and u have to use both hands sometimes.
atifsh said:
in short like only 1 or 2 have already said.... 6.5 is not
6.5.1 [aka towards wm7] is very much finger optimised.
if u guys are not clear, then only the versions which have start buttons on bottom are 6.5.1 and can be used with one hand. 6.5 its a mixed bag and u have to use both hands sometimes.
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What's the big difference between 6.5 and 6.5.1 then? I wouldn't have though a 0.0.1 version change would be much different. Also which version does the HD2 have? The specs I've seen say it's got 6.5.
Windows has really lost it's way. They need to pick a path tha makes sense and stick to it.
The way I see it there are two camps. the iPhone is for entertainment and the blackberry is more business oriented. Why they are going after the iPhone is beyond me. The pocketpc was an awesome business tool and they are trying to evolve it into an iPhone.
Look at Blackberry, most of their phones have no touch screen. They have a trackball! Yikes! But that works for business...
I routinely use my phone for powerpoint presentation, I use excel, I am an original PPC user and they are making the product stylus unfriendly and removing the hardware buttons...
I have the TP2 and I would trade in the touch screen for a scroll wheel, and a d-pad...
I don't think Windows can win against the iphone. They should go after blackberry...
I think there's 2 things here.
Windows Mobile as an OS needs a lot of work IMO. The current hardware is so capable but still windows manages to be sluggish at times. This needs to be fixed, it should be rewritten for the ground up for the more capable modern hardware, better resource management, using all resources to make the thing go as smooth as possible.
Then for the interface ... well ... it's all in the name 'Pocket PC'. It's like a small computer, it even has a startmenu etc... that's how it was build. Devices changed though, and now we need finger friendly interface with eye candy and 3D.
Let's hope that Windows Phone 7 will be as good and revolutionary as Windows 7 for desktop. And let's hope that we won't have to buy a new phone to run it
Moandal said:
Also which version does the HD2 have? The specs I've seen say it's got 6.5.
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6.5.1 hasn't been released yet and won't be until somewhere around February. I wouldn't be surprised if the HD2 gets a 6.5.1 upgrade, although there's no guarantee. If you don't mind installing a "cooked" ROM then it may be available sooner in beta form.
I had no trouble using my big nail-less thumbs on 6.1. WinMo 6.5 is better but not much different. You want something better install the 6.5.1 ROM. I've been using it for the last month and it's the most finger freindly version of WinMo.
I'm a two year Kaiser user and have been happy with it generally. But the small screen and resolution, plus sluggish CPU is making me want to upgrade.
However HTC (and seemingly other manufacturers) seem to be shifting all UI interaction to the screen only (practically). I know I'm not the only one saddened by this, as d-pads and jog dials have their place and offer guaranteed responsiveness and precision which no screen tech can easily match. Unless you have fingers that look like stylii and a permanently steady hand.
Anyway, I'm just interested to hear if there are other people out there wishing for a Touch Pro 3 / Leo / Kaiser hybrid? Nice big screen, Snapdragon but a little d-pad squirrelled away at the bottom and jogger on the side. I wouldn't mind the phone being a bit longer to make it all fit.
Oh and I'm a business user and can appreciate that on a device like the Leo aimed more at the mass-market, the missing buttons aren't so important. But I think the Touch Pro line could do with them.
More than agree!
hardware keyboard is a must for me also, 2 lines of production I can see:
One for more multimedia non professional use like Leo and the second with more business capabilities like the keyboard
I´m sure TP3 will come out with larger screen, snapdragon and more surprises, but we have to wait at least 6 months for that.
just my opinion
Here some possible options:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=556749
i agree completely !
one of the things that i hate about mobile phone design is that everyone thinks that to make a better phone than the iphone you have to copy it rather than take the best ideas and improve on them.
i'm eagerly awaiting news of the touch pro 3 (rather than the touch hd2 / leo) because a hardware keyboard is important to me - i'm hoping that they'll include a scroll wheel and d-pad like my old kaiser in a form factor of my current xperia with a decent processor and the latest version of tf3d. they're all htc devices so it shouldn't be too hard ...
I agree, too. I still use my iPaq 210 daily not only because of the 4in screen, but for the dpad. It just doesn't feel like a pda without one. I would actually prefer phones to come wit jog dials on the side, but that's just a personal preference. How are we supposed to get anything done without them? I recently got a TD2, and while i like it, i don't think I will ever have it replace both my phone and PDA for lack of buttons. The main reason my BA was used so long was for all of its buttons.
I'm surprised to see people sticking up for jog dials -- I'd argue that the dial on my Kaiser is terrible, and WM doesn't handle 'em well anyways.
Dpads are nice, though. I'm particularly fond of the "stealth" pad on the Touch Pro.
At the same time, they're getting less and less useful. As more and more apps are designed to be finger-friendly, the usefulness of the dpad will decrease. I already find myself using it much less than I did, say, two years ago.
I agree that they are being used less in programs, but honestly how could you like the touch pro dpad? It is probably the worst i've ever used
typo said:
As more and more apps are designed to be finger-friendly, the usefulness of the dpad will decrease. I already find myself using it much less than I did, say, two years ago.
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Finger friendliness is one thing, but buttons just can't be beaten in some cases. E.g. I use Profimail for email and when replying, I often need to position the text cursor (?) at the very top. If I do this with a finger it's very tricky to get it in the right place. Or positioning the cursor between the words for adding / removing characters etc. is easier with a D-pad. Or when walking and wanting to do things on the phone without giving the full concentration you'd need by focussing on and positioning your finger on the display.
I agree though the usefulness is decreasing but I just don't think it will ever decrease to the point the D-Pad should be removed, but HTC obviously do.
But people are concentrating on the benefits of faster cpus and forgetting the drawbacks of slower input.