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Hi Guys,
i pointed out that if you have G4 you wont be able to bring it back to the original stand-so you will loose your warranty in any case if you update your G4 model with new ipl/spl cause so far i know there is no way to downgrade it again.You wont be able to install original Software until your device is CID locked and there is no solution for cid unlocking for G4 so far.
charliess said:
i pointed out that if you have G4 you wont be able to bring it back to the original stand-so you will loose your warranty in any case if you update your G4 model with new ipl/spl cause so far i know there is no way to downgrade it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why to upgrade IPL/SPL ???
charliess said:
You wont be able to install original Software until your device is CID locked and there is no solution for cid unlocking for G4 so far.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no free CID unlock, it's different
And you be able to install original software but not able to install official Operating System from other country , really different.
you can flash any Rom you want without any CID unlocked, just you can't downgarde the SPL, so just remove the SPL from any rom, so you are the Newbie here, there was a lot of threads bout this, sorry
IPL SPL, the software that runs the hardware, it is like bios of the motherboard or firmware of any hardware, it is important to update them
paradis_pal said:
you can flash any Rom you want without any CID unlocked, just you can't downgarde the SPL, so just remove the SPL from any rom, so you are the Newbie here, there was a lot of threads bout this, sorry
IPL SPL, the software that runs the hardware, it is like bios of the motherboard or firmware of any hardware, it is important to update them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ähm sorry...but in any case -then tell me please how to get back the warranty it is not possible or?if you update ipl/spl what happens normally just by updating your os with the files you can download from here-gullums etc. then there is no way back to install the original updates from o2.Sure you can CID unlock for money- who wants that?i want it for free but there is no solution.So i started this thread juust to warn noObs not to update cause there is no way back without paying.got it? also i flashed my phone without ipl/spl i ve never said it doesnt work but i guess doing that wont give back warranty cause they also check ipl and spl and see that the device has been upgraded with some other versions->warranty gone.So instead of telling me what to post and saying that im the "dumb" you should bring solutions or simply not comment this thread-cause nobody could helped me with my problem i got no answers,so now to answer this thread is anything but not useful-sry guys my opinion
please check this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=300356
if you missunderstand someting please ask me
paradis_pal said:
please check this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=300356
if you missunderstand someting please ask me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you for this thread but i already know it,even it is possible to install the different os versions without CID lock by following steps in this thread you wont be able to use the updates provided on the O2 site and IPL / SPL is still different to the originial ones-i wanted to sell my phone i have 1 year warranty left but i guess it doenst matter-who would buy a prophet with warranty if O2 would say it as none,cause it has being modified and who would buy a prophet if you are not able to install original software without spending money for this or something like that.but thx for your help
online warranty, will check the SPL? is that what you mean?
you may wait for my solution to write SPL using pdocwrite,
IPL can be downgrade without any problem, only spl has the problem, and if you write the SPL using pdocwrite, and install all using nb2nbf it will be again your old phone
SPL has nothing to do with OS, if you just install os.nb and extention.nb, no one can check it online,
I think, you may download your o2 orginial rom, and extract the nb files, make new one without only SPL it will work and maybe the supports guys will not notice, it will be your phone again
untell I write how to write the SPL using pdocwrite, if you restore your old SPL even the HTC support can't notice you istalled other roms
I had 2 modified prophet back to warranty and they don't check the IPL/SPL stuff.... lol do you think they care about that ? And spend a tech to check dead devices for boot loaders ? no way
Maybe HTC do, but then they don't care anymore.
You just have to put your old rom back.... if you had back it up or are able to find a download that suits.
@paradis_pal: if I understood correctly, your solution will downgrade the IPL/SPL but with a higher version number to fake the protection, so it will still appear as modified
no, using pdocwrite will flash 2.20 again
and you misunderstood me, I was writing what charliess was thinking, I think no one will check the SPL as you wrote, if you read my first post in this thread you wouldn't misunderstood me
So I have followed the guides, two of them conflicting each other (one tells me Wizard Love while other says Button)
So I pick wizard love because I did the factory update a few years back to 2.25
use loki3
run tmobile 2.26 and it fails
run the 3.08 and it works
try to install TNT roms... all get stuck at 99% except one but the rom doesn't work because I am still on windows 5.1
Now on my third attempt it gets stuck at bootloader. Can't get the phone to turn back on to normal mode just to use it and forget about trying these roms
Any ideas?
Got button to work some how
Now I am at IPL 1.01 and SPL 3.08
Hopefully I can redo everything and get 6.1 to work
It tells me my CID/SIM but no where does anyone tell me where I need to insert this ID code at.
ID code? What do you mean by that?
I ment CID, it was telling me the CID like if I needed to enter some sort of menu and run it
Running t-mobile rom again, hopefully this works
You sure that it wasnt asking for a SIM unlock code? OR was it giving you a "data crashes" message?
Nope neither of those.
Anyways
Tmobile screen pops up now with 2.26/2.26
In regards to installing new roms, do I just launch ROMUpdateUtility or Do I need to do a CID unlock again?
Also saw there is 3.08/3.08 available, Update before or after upgrading the wm6.1 rom?
Well, lemme ask you this, what is your device? Is it a G3 or a G4, if G3, then sure, update your IPL/SPL after you upgrade. If it is a G4 however, FOR THE LOVE OF TUNA DO NOT upgrade your IPL/SPL or you will have a brick on your hands. And also, if you have used HardSPL, then no, you do not have to CID unlock your device again. Personally, I just use the SoftSPL method each time I load a ROM. If your device is a G4, I have made a guide in the G4 section that should help you. Its got screenshots and such aswell.
G3
Yay somehow it worked this time, 6.1 is nice
I did softspl
3.08 worth it?
If you device is G3 - FORGET HARDSPL
You mention that you have IPL 1.xx and SPL 3.xx
get WST - Wizard Service Tool and follow the instructions to cid unlock you device, unfortunately you cannot unlock your SIM with the SPl that you have for now
After that flash a carrier ROm to align your IPL/SPL to 2.xx
Ohh it now displays 2.26 on both IPL/SPL
From what I read, 3.08 is mainly for the european radio brand in terms of what the focus on it was for
<---AT&T
Hopefully this will be my last month with this company, figured I try some things out before I put the phone away or give it away to a friend.
Ok, you have a G3 device
Get WST: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=329170
Install in your PC (XP not Vista), check the situation about your CID and SIM
If you have CID unlock = SUpercid you can flash any ROm you want, if not you must downgrade to IPL/SPL 1.xx (Button Rom)
WST Unlock only works with IPL/SPL 1.xx
Note that SIM can only be unlocked with your SPL as 1.xx
go on run, type msconfig and open that, close all microsoft services and install,
Ckamc said:
Ohh it now displays 2.26 on both IPL/SPL
From what I read, 3.08 is mainly for the european radio brand in terms of what the focus on it was for
<---AT&T
Hopefully this will be my last month with this company, figured I try some things out before I put the phone away or give it away to a friend.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DUDE! I'm your friend you can give it to me
Or you could use tmobile with that phone (or any other company that uses sim chips for service) .
Once you have it completely unlocked (cid/sim) you can take it traveling to other countries and use their prepaid sim cards... This is an open phone. dont get rid of it.
on second thought, I will buy it from you if you dont see a reason why you would keep it. I could use a backup to test my cooking on PM me
HAHAHAHA
S.V.I said:
DUDE! I'm your friend you can give it to me
Or you could use tmobile with that phone (or any other company that uses sim chips for service) .
Once you have it completely unlocked (cid/sim) you can take it traveling to other countries and use their prepaid sim cards... This is an open phone. dont get rid of it.
on second thought, I will buy it from you if you dont see a reason why you would keep it. I could use a backup to test my cooking on PM me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You know when an oportunittie comes huh!
I can buy it too but its more glad to see a wizard function well with 6.1
hope you can unlock and upgrade... if not... READ a lot.
Losing Mind (again)
OK, here we go.
First off, I am in no way new to Flashing or the logistics behind it. I am sure this is just something that I cant find by searching. But my problem is this.
I have a G3 TMOBILE USA MDA (Wizard). I have used the lokiwiz2 unlock software several times and according to the program I am SUPERCID unlocked. I am able to flash ROMS all day long. I get no error about loading. What is happening is that I almost always end up with the same default ROM after the FLASH is completed. I am now sitting with the Button ROM on the unit. I assume if the Button ROM loads, then I should be CID Unlocked otr it would not load (or is this my mistake in thinking?)
As my MDA sits now, I have the Beer Mug Displayed, IPL 1.05
SPL 2.26 GSM 01.12.10 OS 1.5.4.2
Now, if I go and try to Flash to one of the Two ROMS I want to go to
TMOUS_MDA_5.2.1629_Wing_Port_1.1 (Boring ROM) or I try with SNN 3.1 it will run the procedure perfectly, and I will end up with a Barebones version of Windows Mobile 5.0. This is wild.
Has anyone seen this happen and is laughing and going "Been there, here is the problem,,) or do I need to discuss this in more detail.
Im wondering if the ROM Upgrade Software is grabbing a ROM from elsewhere on my Hard Drive and is installing it from cache or something like that. Is there another version of the OS Upgrader that allows me to tell it exactly what ROM I want installed, instead of just installing whatever it wants.
Thanks for the help, after two days of searching and looking around, I can deal with amteur hour emabreesment, just HELP!!
My xv6800 and my 8125 was a breeze compared to this nitemare. (BTW, I also flashed this 2 years ago with the TMOBILE USA Official Release, no issue)
wyreless
Well,these are symptoms of CID not unlocked.Button's Rom flashed doesn't mean its CID unlocked,its a patched IPL/SPL rom simply to downgrade to IPL/SPL 1.xx for CID unlocking.
Simply,download WST_4.2.2 and run it to verify the CID lock/unlock status of the phone and do the right thing onwards.
Thank You Zabardast for the quick and to the point answer.
I was thinking in the back of my head it was a CID issue. It was just that everything seemed to be "moving right along". I sthere an easier or better Unlocking soiftware then lokwhiz for the Wizard Series, specifically my USA Tmobile MDA?
Well,if you have Button's Rom running successfully,so its IPL/SPL must be 1.xx already,there shudn't be any problem to use lokiwiz02b to CID unlock the phone,you can even use WST_4.2.2 tool also to easily CID unlock the phone.
There's no other method known to get CID unlocked a wizard freely,unless you are ready to pay to IMEI company to get a unlock code
hey alll..ok i screwed up
i downloaded Charecters ROM..i used WST and it showed that my device is G3 and its CID locked..well i just started the Flashing and it stuck at 99%
now it wont load any ROM and just as i came from school..its not evening starting..its not evening charging..please help any one
for one to flash a rom you must CID unlock it first...
Phone info in sig
Used KaiserUnlocker (NOT kaiser-supercid - OP claims it doesnt work with hardspl 3.28 nor 3.29).
I can only find a relocker for the superCID unlocker
Can anyone help me relock my CID since I used KaiserUnlocker?
Have you called cust care yet? If not, call and ask for your unlock code because you plan on taking an extended buisness trip to canadialand. Say your company is using Rogers up there and is providing you a phone, but you cannot imagine your life without your tilt.
Then warranty it.
not sure if u looked at the "reverting" thread for this request here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=335568
phantomy2g said:
not sure if u looked at the "reverting" thread for this request here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=335568
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see anything in that thread about reverting CID back to OEM..unless I missed it.
cbass said:
Have you called cust care yet? If not, call and ask for your unlock code because you plan on taking an extended buisness trip to canadialand. Say your company is using Rogers up there and is providing you a phone, but you cannot imagine your life without your tilt.
Then warranty it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i need not to unlock my phone. it is already unlocked. i need to lock it so i can return it.
but lets say i call cust care, can they give me my OEM CID code to relock? All i can remember is mine starting with 8 lol
richabi said:
i need not to unlock my phone. it is already unlocked. i need to lock it so i can return it.
but lets say i call cust care, can they give me my OEM CID code to relock? All i can remember is mine starting with 8 lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It shouldn't make any difference. ATT is not like Sprint in this matter I believe. They don't care. Just put the original stock ROM on ATT with the Original Radio and it should be ok. Make sure the software is exactly as it is when its NIB (new in box). No customs ROMs or the Super eMo radio.
Thats what I did when I returned mine and nothing happened.
Although I might have been lucky. But in my opinion nothing should happen.
Att is just anal about giving the unlock code.
They don't care if you return in unlocked.
Once again this is my opinion.. Do it at your own risk.
I was saying that you should get the unlock code from them and return the phone unlocked. That way they can't question your phone being unlocked.
I hope this helps
richabi said:
i need not to unlock my phone. it is already unlocked. i need to lock it so i can return it.
but lets say i call cust care, can they give me my OEM CID code to relock? All i can remember is mine starting with 8 lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used the relocker just yesterday. I don't think it matters what you used to unlock it. Just flash a compatable SPL before starting. I too was using SPL 3.29 comex. The instructions were a little tedious.
First: follow the steps to lock only replace file Super CID with relocker.exe in step two. {you must do this before you remove Hard SPL by Olipro, because you have to have hard spl to start the unlocker} This relock your phone. Left to do is remove Hard SPL and flash the correct ROM
Second: flash your OEM SPL because you haven't removed hard SPL you shouldn't need jump spl
Third: Flash your OEM ROM
This should have your good to go. I did deviate from the recommended sequence in that I fould that when I followed the steps in the thread I'd already removed hard spl and it was needed to get relock/unlock to work. PM if you need assistance I will provide you with my IM user name. and we can have a live chat to get you through it.
Fourth: Re
wow
you guys are amazing. thank you all for your replies.
I called them for the unlock code and CID number and the lady said don't worry about it. just to return the phone unlocked and she will make a note on my account.
of course, my account doesnt claim that i called in before that and was issued an unlock code so i dont know how that is going to work. the lady sounded a bit perplexed about my request so i don't know if i should trust her lol
I don't think its a big deal if a phone is unlocked. i wouldn't think it would void warranty. some ppl NEED to travel internationally and they have issues with their AT&T branded phones every day, ya know?
Well let me set the record straight. It's not a big deal. I've RMA returned two Tilts now back to AT&T, the first one I still had an HTC based cooked ROM on it from here (Dutty's Dualtouch v4) and the second had Garmin 4.2, but I reinstalld the AT&T Tilt ROM. But I didn't relock it. Anyways they can't tell, they rewipe it from scratch so the evidence of if it's locked or unlocked goes bye bye. They'd have to try to flash a nonstandard ROM to know for sure. They aren't going to do that obviously
Hello everybody, excuse my poor english, i am french.
I just have installed a cooked rom i will try it for a few days but it's possible that i will want to return back to the original orange Rom. I have the 3.29 hard spl and superCID unlocked (000000000).
Can i just execute the installation of the original rom ? or have i to do something before ? (i have killed a C500 by doing this kind of operation)
Thx for your help and have a nice day.
McAlister said:
Hello everybody, excuse my poor english, i am french.
I just have installed a cooked rom i will try it for a few days but it's possible that i will want to return back to the original orange Rom. I have the 3.29 hard spl and superCID unlocked (000000000).
Can i just execute the installation of the original rom ? or have i to do something before ? (i have killed a C500 by doing this kind of operation)
Thx for your help and have a nice day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've answered to your PM...
Yeah. I returned a Tilt with HardSPL installed and got a refurb back. The coolest part was that the refurb had a 1gb card in it with a bunch of rom flashing stuff on it. I was laughing.
It didn't have HardSPL installed, though. Wonder if someone bricked it.
Hey Everyone-
This post has probably already been answered but i have been searching the forums (and google) and getting mixed results.
I looking to flash the ROM on my HTC Touch Pro (Fuze). However, I've read that my phone must be unlocked to flash a new radio, but not a new ROM. However I've also read that with a new ROM comes a new Radio. So which is it? Do i need to unlock my phone to flash a new ROM because if not i will have a phone w/o a Radio?
Thanks alot, these forums are awesome.
From my understanding, you only need to unlock the phone if you want to use another device's radio. For example, you have a Touch Pro, if you wanted to put a Touch HD radio on it then the phone needs to be unlocked. However, if you want to put another Touch Pro radio on your touch pro you shouldn't need to unlock the phone.
To answer your second question about Roms with or without radios.... They come both ways but I have mostly seen Roms without included radios. Just read the desired Rom info page to find out if it includes a radio or not.
Unlock (HardSPL) is always necessary. No matter if u flash a radio, a rom or a radio/rom.
The only moment when u do not need to unlock is if u flash an official update , radio or rom, that is made from ur provider for ur phone. Or if its unbranded , the update is downloaded from htc itself with ur serial number entered befor.
BTW: Unlock (HardSPL) means that the loader of ur phone accepts NOT signed Roms or radio files for flashing.
Thank you both for the quick replies. So that i have this clear-
I can download and run hardspl according to the instructions etc, etc. Then if i choose to flash a rom without a radio i can. Then (or before) I can flash a Fuze Radio to my phone all without sim unlocking my phone?
Do i have that right?
Thank a million
Fuzer_Guy said:
Thank you both for the quick replies. So that i have this clear-
I can download and run hardspl according to the instructions etc, etc. Then if i choose to flash a rom without a radio i can. Then (or before) I can flash a Fuze Radio to my phone all without sim unlocking my phone?
Do i have that right?
Thank a million
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not shure if I got u correct in the first post:
By unlock do u mean SIM unlock ? Means use sims from any provider.
By unlock u mean entering the pin number to use ur phone ?
By unlock u mean (what I thought first) enabling the phone to accept any kind of rom ?
Normally a new radio is not always needed, I flash most of the times leaving my radio as it is, if its good in reception and power consumption
2. What are the different types of Unlock? (answer by DaveShaw)
The three stages of unlock are:
SIM: Allows you to use SIM's from another carrier. Can be done using codes or unlocker programs on xda-devs.
Security: Allows you to flash radios from another device (i.e. Raphael) - It does other stuff, but this is all the casual user will use it for
CID: CID unlocking is an old concept, nowadays you flash Hard SPL instead. This lets you flash any ROM, Splash or Radio (depending on sec unlock) to your device. N.B. the CID is the carrier ID (e.g. HTC__001). The stock SPL's only let you flash ROM's that match the CID in the ROM image with the CID on your device.
Also, SuperCID is an even older concept no longer valid on newer devices.
Last edited by mskip; 29th January 2009 at 09:19 AM..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These are what I understand as the levels of Unlocking... so you're right. I was talking about a security unlock (my apologies). The carrier shouldn't have anything to do with the process. And i don't need special software to security unlock the phone right? (that's where i was getting confused)
As for that last part--
So assuming i like the reception and battery usage i get right now I can flash any ROM i want w/o worrying about losing the radio? And if i do get a ROM with a radio is the radio installed automatically or are there two steps? Thus enabling me to install the ROM without the radio that came with it?
Many Thanks
Fuzer_Guy said:
These are what I understand as the levels of Unlocking... so you're right. I was talking about a security unlock (my apologies). The carrier shouldn't have anything to do with the process. And i don't need special software to security unlock the phone right? (that's where i was getting confused)
As for that last part--
So assuming i like the reception and battery usage i get right now I can flash any ROM i want w/o worrying about losing the radio? And if i do get a ROM with a radio is the radio installed automatically or are there two steps? Thus enabling me to install the ROM without the radio that came with it?
Many Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, first u have to HardSPL (What does: Ur Phone accepts any radio and/or rom)
From here:http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=410150
NOTE 3: this is unsigned Hard-SPL. no limitations on flashing ROMs or radio packages. also, this has overwrite protection, if someone needs to revert to stock SPL for warranty reasons, we will soon post a stock SPL downgrade package.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If u have a touch pro and want to use Diamond or Blackstone radios then u have to do look here, first.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=426609
Then:
Flash ROM -> ur radio stays the same
Flash Radio -> ur rom stays the same
Flash all in one -> Both are changing, radio and rom.
Look in the roms thread, they tell u if it comes with or without radio. I think most of the times without. The original Raphael rom from HTC is WITH radio btw
Thank you very, very, very much!!!
Im gonna give this a try now.
Once again, many thanks.
Fuzer_Guy said:
Thank you very, very, very much!!!
Im gonna give this a try now.
Once again, many thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make sure to thoroughly read through the stickys on flashing a rom........
overall, as mentioned, hardspl first, then falsh rom, hard reset, then flash radio, hard reset, then install rilphone cab and you're good to go....
read read read....
Hi ,
Wanting to get rid of 3 uk junk and flash to normal UK RUU
Do we need super CID?
My bootloader is unlocked , can't download the RUU from from the Dev section as all the slots are gone , or when it seems to work it errors out .
Has anyone got the latest UK RUU file they can share with me and can someone confirm if I need Super CID to run RUU to unbrand
Thanks in Advance
Just flash Modaco or the Virtuous roms through recovery, these are unbranded and really good.
You will need to flash a Recovery image first though.
Hi and thanks
Yes , I understand this but I want to just unbrand through RUU then re-lock my bootloader.
Do we need Super CID ?
Ok can someone remind me if I need S-Off to change the CID , playing around with ADB at the moment
If Im honest mate, no idea what you mean by CID...
But if you want a new rom, all that needs to be done is unlock bootloader, flash recovery, flash rom.
Thats all anyone has done in the dev threads, and worked fine for me (coming from a retail, unbranded unit).
You can 'lock' the bootloader again, BUT it never goes back to its true original state. This is as HTC designed their unlocking/locking process to be (and is stated in their terms when you go to their site to unlock).
Edit: OK, just read up on it. Possibly then! Depends how annoying 3 are I suppose... Probably best to ask one of the devs
Edit 2: CHeck the following, may be of help (though its for the One X)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1594262
http://android.modaco.com/topic/353106-debrand-one-x/
Edit 3: If you're applying a flashable zip, does the CID limitiation on RUUs even come into play?
Hi thanks ,
Yea what I want to achieve is this .
My CID is HG3____001 this will need to be changed to a CID that is HTC UK specific usually HTC_____001
To find out your CID in ADB
Fastboot Getvar CID
To get to a retail version from a branded version , what usually needed to happen was this .
Unlock bootloader , change CID to 11111111 via ADB
Run the specific UK RUU.exe
Change your CID to the HTC_____001 which is the usual default for UK unbranded devices .
re-lock your bootloader and then you should receive OTA updates from HTC instead of your network supplier which can take months
I can't remember if S-off was needed to do this. I have just checked revolution site and One s is not listed , will play around tonight though and see
Thanks for the help so far
Hi, I know what CID is - coming from the Sensation.
I dont think its possible to change CID without S-OFF, you cant use advanced ADB functions with S-ON
Until revolutionary or someone else makes tool for S-OFF, we will just have to stick with HTCDev, Its not the best, but it allows to flash recovery and ROMs so its better than nothing.
Im pretty sure there will be some progress in the next few weeks, Once the phone is available worldwide
Ahh ok , thanks , yea this phone is set S- on , so S-off will be needed sooner or later
yeah, as development develops and more rights are needed from the phone, S-0FF will eventually be a MUST.
I wish it was available already, I hate the fact that HTC know i have tampered with my HBOOT and voided my warranty.
Luckily enough, if i have a problem, my provider fixes / repairs the phone, Not HTC, So i might just get off lightly
I think HTC will know if you have tampered with the phone period if they wish to look that far into it .
Unless you fry your processor where you have set it too high etc then shouldn't be a problem. If you have a hardware problem such as your screen fails , battery etc then should be fine .
As you say though , if you brought it through a retail unit then that is where it is returned so in some respects is a bit easier as they will use a third party repairer acting for HTC .
well with the sensation it was possible to return everything back to stock, Including the bootloader and S-ON..
There was no way it could be diagnosed as being tampered with, If you did it properly..
But with HTCDev. youve already submitted a code (which i assume contains serial number) so all they have to do is check whether that device matches anything on their database of tampered devices. Thats why i dislike it so much..
But i need root for most of my apps so there was no workaround for me...
I see on the One X forum S-off is under way . Can't wait to get this baby to true stock.
Just did another Google search for S-Off on the S but nothing as yet .