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Question: Would you still buy HTC phones if they were largely Android-based?

Reason for my question? This: http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/22/htc-adopting-android-on-50-of-its-handsets-in-2010/
Going to quite a few iPhone topics here (and made one myself), I know that a lot of you guys here seem to love WinMo (at least more than OSX), so seeing this piece of news was kind of interesting.
As we all know and as the article reiterates, the vast majority of current HTC phones are WinMo-based. The rumor is that it's eventually going to go down to 50%-based with the other 50% being Android. Of course, it's a rumor, but the articles states that HTC is already on the way to being 30% Android-based, so how unlikely is it really?
Now let me go a bit further: As it is, HTC is currently 90% WinMo-based. With the speed at which they seem to be moving (2% to 50% Android-based in one year?), who is to say they won't eventually be 90% Android-based? If this does happen, though, as we see now, XDA could easily simply add the Android-based phones with little issue. On the other hand, as we also see now with Android-based phones, the design may become more limited instead of the numerous designs available for WinMo-based phones.
But...would you guys continue to purchase HTC phones? Is your love of HTC phones all dependent upon the support of XDA-developers or can you simply not switch from WinMo?
Personally, I am pretty OS independent. I can work with any phone. However, if I do have to switch from WinMo, then I would prefer to switch to either iPhone (yeah, yeah, I know) or the Palm Pre (WebOS' increasing popularity and great usability). As it is, I'm not very interested in Android, and Google...has done/say a few things in the past to make me doubt if they'll give proper support to Android. So personally, if HTC does switch to being almost completely Android-based, then truthfully, I probably would not continue purchasing HTC.

ofcourse.
however, i am not "loyal" to any OS or company. whoever makes the best device that suits my needs gets the money.

Well
They would increase their Android models but WM will still be there, so it´s just another option to stay with HTC
Personally I think Android can be good in the future, when they achieve a more mature and solid OS, meantime I´m with WM and of course HTC

crazy talk said:
ofcourse.
however, i am not "loyal" to any OS or company. whoever makes the best device that suits my needs gets the money.
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Well, I wasn't referring to company/OS loyalty; my apology if I gave that impression. What I really meant was a question of how much one likes using Windows Mobile vs how much one likes XDA support.
As I said, I'm presuming there's a certain number of people here who likes WinMo, so I'm trying to gauge how many people would stick with HTC in the case of such a large move. From your post, I'm assuming you'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support, though?
orb3000 said:
They would increase their Android models but WM will still be there, so it´s just another option to stay with HTC
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True, but I'm guessing one's choices may also become a bit more limited if HTC's Android support increases even further. Look at HTC's list of Android-based phones now. If you happen to not like any of the *three* choices, whether it be due to design, specs, or whatever other reason, then you're pretty much out of luck, aren't you?
On the other hand, if you don't like one HTC WinMo-based phone, you literally have a dozen other choices in various designs and specs to fit your desire.

My Understanding is that MS doesn’t work and listen well with the manufacturer. There are many complains on current WinMo capabilities and how time consuming it is to write application for it. Furthermore complains also go in to the development speed of the WM7 which no one knows anything about it. Therefore some HTC press release could be aiming of putting serious pressure to MS. Furthermore been only on WinMo leads HTC very depended on MS. I believe that is very important point by certain negotiations between HTC and MS.
Therefore it is only understandable that HTC starting put more weight on a second pillar. Besides developing own OS the Android is the best option for HTC for shaping and driving an Operation Platform for their Devices.
Anyhow that Large Companies like HTC, Samsung and some others paying serious attention to Android indicating very bright future for Android. It is most likely now that those companies will speed up the process growing young OS to maturate. WinMo and MS is really under pressure now, if Wm7 doesn’t bring the expected wowww change then it will no other way then to say... Good bye WinMo

Not sure if I really need another OS in the mix. I wouldn't mind a device that can do both Android and WinMo but only Android ... probably not. Then I might as well make the jump to the iPhone.

I certainly wouldn't rule out Android. As somebody who uses a lot of Google's webservices, Android has a definite appeal. There's a few WM-specific apps I'd miss, but the app ecosystem for Android will only improve as time goes one.
However, I've been pretty darn happy with Microsoft's direction lately (Win 7, Zune, and the Xbox 360 are all great products). I wouldn't buy another WM6 device, but I'm definitely going to be following WM7 closely.
I still think HTC has some of the best ID guys in the business (aesthetically I prefer the TD2 and TP2 to anything on the market) and they're very talented and making software tweaks, but they really need to raise the bar for hardware specs and quality if they want me to keep buying HTC devices, regardless of the OS.
edit: And agreeing with coolVariable, I'd love a device that could easily be configured to run either natively. That would be an instant sale from me. I have a feeling MS's licensing wouldn't make it easy, though.

I'd switch in a heartbeat to anything different from HTC/WinMo as long as it's available on my Sprint SERO plan.

Bulldog said:
My Understanding is that MS doesn’t work and listen well with the manufacturer. There are many complains on current WinMo capabilities and how time consuming it is to write application for it.
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Hmm, if this is the case, it may explain partly why HTC is betting so much on Android so suddenly. To be honest, if it is the case, I wouldn't be surprised either. I've seen similar techniques employed by other companies in other industries recently too.
Still, corporate shenanigans or not, 50% still seems like a massive shift to me, but I'm guessing the plan might change if their 2009 30% path becomes bumpy.
coolVariable said:
Not sure if I really need another OS in the mix. I wouldn't mind a device that can do both Android and WinMo but only Android ... probably not. Then I might as well make the jump to the iPhone.
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Both Android and WinMo? You mean sort of a dual boot deal or simply a device that can install either Android or WinMo roms? That would be fantastic; I think we can all agree on that. I think we can all agree too that it's unlikely.

8525Smart said:
True, but I'm guessing one's choices may also become a bit more limited if HTC's Android support increases even further. Look at HTC's list of Android-based phones now. If you happen to not like any of the *three* choices, whether it be due to design, specs, or whatever other reason, then you're pretty much out of luck, aren't you?
On the other hand, if you don't like one HTC WinMo-based phone, you literally have a dozen other choices in various designs and specs to fit your desire.
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I don´t think so, there are so many models with WM to choose from, and there will be more coming.
The actual number of Andorid models is low, and as you said, it will increase, but that is good so more options will be available.
As I said, I´ll stick to HTC WM models, at least in following 2 years...Then we can see what is Android doing and perhaps I can consider...

Great thread!
I think I will continue buying HTC phones even if there was a large Android base, even more than 50%. I like Android and all, and maybe in the future I may even take one myself, but WM is so customizable and i have it just the way i like it and wouldnt change it for anything (except for a newer more powerful device maybe tegra/snapdragon which im holding out for)
I have to give credit where credit is due: if it wasn't for this site, my tp may have been my first and last winmo phone. I wouldnt have the functionality and great experience that i do now without the help of the folks here.
BTW, I think this thread would benefit greatly from a poll, as many dont have the time to post, but everyone has time to vote.

orb3000 said:
I don´t think so, there are so many models with WM to choose from, and there will be more coming.
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Yes, currently, but if HTC does shift to majority Android-based phones, then the number of WinMo-based models will inevitably go down (in favor of Android-based models instead), which will then result in a lack of choices.
Nonetheless, I do agree with you. If Android eventually shows more promise, I would reconsider too, but at this point, I still prefer to switch to OSX/WebOS if I have to leave WinMo.
euphoria47 said:
BTW, I think this thread would benefit greatly from a poll, as many dont have the time to post, but everyone has time to vote.
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Hmm, you're right. I don't know how I missed that simple bit of fact. Unfortunately, I think it's a bit late for me to make a poll now.
P.S. Thank you for the compliment.

8525Smart said:
Well, I wasn't referring to company/OS loyalty; my apology if I gave that impression. What I really meant was a question of how much one likes using Windows Mobile vs how much one likes XDA support.
As I said, I'm presuming there's a certain number of people here who likes WinMo, so I'm trying to gauge how many people would stick with HTC in the case of such a large move. From your post, I'm assuming you'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support, though?
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i knew what you were asking. and you are correct. i'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support right now.
i mean, right now im using an IPhone because it was the best for me at the time. and now i want to switch to the Tp2. saying "i won't buy XXXX device because it is made by XXXX company and runs XXXX Operating system severely limits choices.

Why of course!!!!

How safe are custom roms to use?

I was wondering if anyone knows a real answer for this. How easy would it be to cook in something that would send back your email login and password? Or other logins to stuff like banking sites. The people who make the roms seem to be hard working enthusiasts, but it still makes me nervous.
The reason I am asking this is because WM6.1 seems pretty buggy and slow and I was hoping that maybe updating to 6.5 would help, however Sprint is being super slow and vague (as usual) about if they will ever release an official rom.
And please no "then just don't use custom roms" replies. I am just hoping someone has some way to show that they are safe and then I will happily use it!

I was wondering the same thing. I don't use any cooked rom for anything banking related for this possible risk.

I know there are other threads that have the answer but can't find them maybe someone hid them?
Anyway what would the average chef gain, second of all how do you know a member of Opera or IE is not taking down your details or even Bill? "by that i mean there is more to worry about"
My point being chefs cook ROMs to give users better phones than stocks... Also the world of WM isn't laden with virus's/spyware so even doing so would be hard and no one would be bothered to spend there time considering how much time cooking consumes.
Just Hard-SPL your device and start flashing

I find cooked roms are the best! They are tweeked, customized, optimized, flexable, etc. Happy Flashing

Im still leary. Im going to wait until you all flash...then i will know its safe

If any chef here did anything as dumb as that, I guarantee you everyone would know in VERY short order what was done, and that chef would be hung up by his ankles and verbally flogged by everyone here.
Trust me, it's never happened here, and it's not GOING to happen; because we have a great community here with great chefs who do nothing but make life better for everyone else. Choose a ROM, flash it, and quit being so paranoid.

FloatingFatMan said:
If any chef here did anything as dumb as that, I guarantee you everyone would know in VERY short order what was done, and that chef would be hung up by his ankles and verbally flogged by everyone here.
Trust me, it's never happened here, and it's not GOING to happen; because we have a great community here with great chefs who do nothing but make life better for everyone else. Choose a ROM, flash it, and quit being so paranoid.
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That is a very argumentative answer to a very simple and valid concern that allwires has regarding the security of using cooked rom's. Some people that use these rom's like to use their device's web capabilities for banking and for storing personal information and he brings up a very valid question regarding the safety of using these rom's for these purposes. Then you insult the poster by saying he or she is being paranoid when we all know that the capabilities for wrong doing via viruses and other malicious software are very valid concerns in this day and age. I would like to hear an intelligent and informative answer to this question since I'm sure as this sort of thing becomes more mainstream as it is bound through time to become there will be many more inquiries made as to the safety of their usage.

I'm with FloatingFatMan here, any cook daft enough to do such a thing to a ROM would very quickly be found by his peers, tried, convicted and summarily thrown to the lions.
For all that how do we know Messrs Gates, Jobs, well their minions anyway , and other sundry "professional" ROM cooks are not hiding sneaky payloads in?

deedee said:
I'm with FloatingFatMan here, any cook daft enough to do such a thing to a ROM would very quickly be found by his peers, tried, convicted and summarily thrown to the lions.
For all that how do we know Messrs Gates, Jobs, well their minions anyway , and other sundry "professional" ROM cooks are not hiding sneaky payloads in?
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Well, but you see that is my point exactly. Whether it is the big guy or the small guy doing it history has shown that where there is a will there is a way, especially when there is a profit to be made. Its like when Norton got busted for spyware found in their AV software in the early 2000's, remember that? I just wonder if such an attempt will be made with this newly emerging technology that is similar to the PC of the late 90's and the early 2000's, vulnerable. No one is offering (at least no one that I'm aware of) AV or firewall software for these various mobile OS's and I think that it is only a matter of time before the bad guys find a way to take advantage of these opportunities the same way they did the PC. Al least over time there became ways to detect these types of illegal practices with firewall software and packet capture software that made the average user capable of some control over his or her personal data.

qqa92 said:
Well, but you see that is my point exactly. Whether it is the big guy or the small guy doing it history has shown that where there is a will there is a way, especially when there is a profit to be made. Its like when Norton got busted for spyware found in their AV software in the early 2000's, remember that? I just wonder if such an attempt will be made with this newly emerging technology that is similar to the PC of the late 90's and the early 2000's, vulnerable. No one is offering (at least no one that I'm aware of) AV or firewall software for these various mobile OS's and I think that it is only a matter of time before the bad guys find a way to take advantage of these opportunities the same way they did the PC. Al least over time there became ways to detect these types of illegal practices with firewall software and packet capture software that made the average user capable of some control over his or her personal data.
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Hey There,
Not wanting to be unkind but i think you are being very paranoid here and btw, you can indeed purchase AV software for mobile devices; youve only gotta google AV software for windows mobile to see that
The limited OS and how its written means the "baddies" would have nothing to gain/find it difficult to exploit so whats the point.
The only "virus" (and i use the term loosely) i ever came across actually asked you "do you want to install blah blah blah" to which the obvious answer was no.............oooo that was dangerous
To summerise, dont get your knickers in a twist about it and enjoy!

^^ And to add to Tim's comments. Just make sure you get your cooked ROM from an established chef if you're worried, and there won't be any problems.
Now, if the ROM was from someone with a tiny postcount and wasn't known, then you might have cause to think twice; but that's not going to happen here...

timmymarsh said:
Hey There,
Not wanting to be unkind but i think you are being very paranoid here and btw, you can indeed purchase AV software for mobile devices; youve only gotta google AV software for windows mobile to see that
The limited OS and how its written means the "baddies" would have nothing to gain/find it difficult to exploit so whats the point.
The only "virus" (and i use the term loosely) i ever came across actually asked you "do you want to install blah blah blah" to which the obvious answer was no.............oooo that was dangerous
To summerise, dont get your knickers in a twist about it and enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well then why not let the cat out of the bag. I'm just in here to see if I can get a large portion of the members in here's knickers in a twist so that they will all go out and buy my mobile AV since mine is the biggest one out there currently. Lots of potential there, in terms of cha-ching you have to agree. LOL!

There's also the option of downloading a kitchen and cooking your own ROM ... this method permits you to look at each package in detail.
Cheers,

I once opened my yahoo on a cooked room, later on I was trying to log on on my laptop and password was rejected. I freaked out and kept trying, later that day I was able to log in after few hours for some unknown reason...
I stopped using my HTC fuze for emails since.
The myth that ALL cooked ROMs in here are completely clean sounds like an old familiar story of when the young man said to the girl "don't worry it will not hurt a bit" lol
I wish there was a tool that scans for such security gaps in a ROM

I'm not sure what your reasoningn was to stop using email on the phone because of a failure to login to yahoo from a laptop. Did you notice any malicious activity on your yahoo account? Have you since? Have you changed that password? Just seems strange.
As for the security of cooked ROMS, I've never used one but I have a new phone coming and I'm going to try one from a reputable party here. I'm not nervous about it and I use online banking all the time. Here is why I am not concerned:
1.) As several people pointed out already, your PC is more vulnerable just because of sheer numbers. WinMo has a small market share and cooked ROMs would represent an even smaller market share. Even then, there are many custom ROMs to choose from. Then if EVERY user of a specific tainted ROM used their online banking on their phones, there is still little they could actually do with that information. For example, chase uses text messaging which means yes, someone could get my balance and stuff, but I actually have to login to the site to authorize my phone rather than login through the phone. So the information itself may or may not be useful. At the end of the day, it just wouldn't make the chef much money since there would simply be too few potential victims.
2.) The liklihood is very high that the perp would be caught by their peers and exposed in order to 1 - protect their own integrity, and 2 - get bonus points for being the one who exposed the bad guy (or girl). When you add this level of risk to the low reward, it just doesn't make sense. High risk, lots of work, little reward.
3.) Then of course, if someone fraudulently accesses your account, you can usually get that money back.
So I'm perfectly comfortable froma security standpoint. It's the stability standpoint I'm a bit concerned about but that's why I'm waiting till I get my new phone to try one out so I can go back to my old phone if it all craps out.

RedScorpion78 said:
I once opened my yahoo on a cooked room, later on I was trying to log on on my laptop and password was rejected. I freaked out and kept trying, later that day I was able to log in after few hours for some unknown reason...
I stopped using my HTC fuze for emails since.
The myth that ALL cooked ROMs in here are completely clean sounds like an old familiar story of when the young man said to the girl "don't worry it will not hurt a bit" lol
I wish there was a tool that scans for such security gaps in a ROM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was thinking the same thing and how much it would cost to have Lavasoft or AVG or Symantec evaluate ROMs as an impartial third party.
If anybody is thinking peer review would snuff out cheaters there are plenty cases where Ebay and Craigslist deals go bad and everybody is in on it - even (inadvertently) the local police authority that doesn't have the technical knowhow to deal with a cyber-based threat.

startluvova said:
I was thinking the same thing and how much it would cost to have Lavasoft or AVG or Symantec evaluate ROMs as an impartial third party.
If anybody is thinking peer review would snuff out cheaters there are plenty cases where Ebay and Craigslist deals go bad and everybody is in on it - even (inadvertently) the local police authority that doesn't have the technical knowhow to deal with a cyber-based threat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey there,
Way to go to ressurect an old thread
Nothing has changed, i have never heard of seen of a custom rom that has a virus cooked in, or one that has been intentionally created to spy on the user.
That said, i guess you have to make your own decision after reading the comments from some experienced chefs/flashers here
CHeers.

webOS for android? might sound dumb but is it even possible?

ok saw a post on the sprint hero boards and wanted to ask over here aswell since the g1 area has a lot more developers for it.
would porting webOS to an android phone seem possible? I had a palm pre for a bit was cool and fast, I like android more but the thought of running it would be cool

Noooooooooo

You mean porting over apps?
or running webOS on your phone?

In a word:
No.
In more words:
We need drivers. There are no WebOS drivers for Android devices. Many of the existing drivers that we need are proprietary, meaning (and I'm not sure on this part) most likely the hardware specifications necessary to write drivers are closed as well. If they are not closed, it would be possible--but not for a team of geeks like XDA. You'd need a major entity, like Google, to do it, which won't happen. Besides, not all of WebOS is completely open-source, just like not ALL of what goes into Android phones is. It's just not possible--even if the driver issue could be overcome, which it can't.
Yet another word:
This is a question, so it belongs in Q&A. Not to be a jerk or anything, but just letting you know, so next time you can post there.

Doesn't seem possible at this current time however I disagree with the post above if all of xda devs came together then it might be possible due to the fact cyanogen im guessing could make his own drivers etc. However as said above it would not be possible due to the fact it is not completely open-source
ps: Why would you want webOS it is nothing compared to android - IF you agree then post back with this a smile ^_^

xillius200 said:
Doesn't seem possible at this current time however I disagree with the post above if all of xda devs came together then it might be possible due to the fact cyanogen im guessing could make his own drivers etc. However as said above it would not be possible due to the fact it is not completely open-source
ps: Why would you want webOS it is nothing compared to android - IF you agree then post back with this a smile ^_^
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you ever written a device driver? You need detailed spec of the interfaces of the piece of hardware you're trying to talk to. Without them you're trying to build the Empire State Building blindfolded with a teaspoon and pair of pliers.

linuxluver said:
Have you ever written a device driver? You need detailed spec of the interfaces of the piece of hardware you're trying to talk to. Without them you're trying to build the Empire State Building blindfolded with a teaspoon and pair of pliers.
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Click to collapse
Okay so simply put we would need MacGyver to write the drivers...

you know, none of this is true, as the drivers for all of the HTC android phones have the drivers built into the kernel (as opposed to running as modules with the exception of wifi) because of GPL, they have released this information, albeit kinda late (*cough* CDMA hero) one stumbling block is how WebOS is going to interface with the drivers may be different, keep in palm has its kernel modifications "drivers" also available (once again because of GPL) so if interfacing is different, it COULD possibly be reverse engineered... the actual WebOS platform IS closed source however, making this all much much more difficult.
http://developer.htc.com/
http://opensource.palm.com/
dont let anyone tell you its impossible, its not. Are you going to port it? No, if you had to start this thread, then its not likely.

mbazdell said:
Okay so simply put we would need MacGyver to write the drivers...
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rofl..............

Napoleon said:
Impossible is a word only to be found in the dictionary of fools.
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That said I like my android

linuxluver said:
Have you ever written a device driver? You need detailed spec of the interfaces of the piece of hardware you're trying to talk to. Without them you're trying to build the Empire State Building blindfolded with a teaspoon and pair of pliers.
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Click to collapse
Also yeah without knowing about the phone it is like building the empire state building. That's why you buy the phone open it up find details on the phone first off and try and figure it out by taking a long look and experimenting otherwise you will never get anywhere. It is like life without actually doing it and just saying about it you will never achieve it so you do it
If Cyanogen or another dev decided to do this it is not impossible as long as they know how to build a device driver which i know 4 of the devs on here can do it is not impossible. The question is would they actually do this project?
Personally I do not see a point in this project if you wanted a webOS why didn't you buy a palm sry if i may sound a little rude but it is the truth why buy a android?
If i may have sounded rude in the sentence above i am very sry you can shun me down

xillius200 said:
For linux once never went my way and stop having a go i was just voicing my opinion it is a free country im just saying with cyanogenmod, Wesgarner, Ctso, Kingklick etc. we stand a great chance at doing it and i bet cyan must have made a device driver before. so please don't go off on one i don't care if this get's made as stated below android is better anyway so get off my back linuxluver and stop being a jackass all I was trying to say is it could be done and not impossible you are making it sound like we have no hope in hell.
ps: I only wan't to come on here to chat and make friends not to be abused
ps2: Also yeah without knowing about the phone it is like building the empire state building. That's why you buy the phone open it up find details on the phone first off and try and figure it out without taking a long look and experimenting you will never get anywhere. It is like life without actually doing it and just saying about it you will never achieve it so you do it
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You really have no idea whatsoever as to how computer hardware works. Like the other person said, there just isn't a chance in hell of a small group of people working in their free time without the cooperation of hardware manufacturers to do what you're saying.
Look at AOSP, think of all the people working on it, and we still don't have everything working on it correctly. And that's with an open-source OS, not to mention Android was meant to use on these HTC phones anyway.

Web OS is really nice but doesn't seem very popular considering only 2 phones have it while. 10+ phones will come out with Android. I bet if this was done the person asking would use it for like a month then go to another ROM. Which means all that work trying to make drivers would go in vain.

xencor said:
You really have no idea whatsoever as to how computer hardware works. Like the other person said, there just isn't a chance in hell of a small group of people working in their free time without the cooperation of hardware manufacturers to do what you're saying.
Look at AOSP, think of all the people working on it, and we still don't have everything working on it correctly. And that's with an open-source OS, not to mention Android was meant to use on these HTC phones anyway.
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Click to collapse
So is a small group of people not good enough look at bill gates for example creator of microsoft started of with the apple man 2 people now we have microsoft windows and apple so are you saying a small group of people can't do something amazing every now and again?
Also i do not care about webOS i hate webOS in fact i just wanted to extract my opinion and further fourth nothing is impossible look at wireless electricity about a few years ago seen as a myth now look at it. This could be done one day maybe not now but sometime in the future. Most of webOS is in java anyway and most of it is using dbus.
I thought that emulating it on a jvm may be possible? like freedsb running over the top of windows in a vm.
Also all those who port drivers from windows to linux and max to windows etc. have no help from the manafacturers and they still manage to do it and they work alone.
Im not going to voice my opinion in this thread again i have had enough with people who don't let people talk their mind all it was was an opinion nothing more and a possible chance of it working instead of it sounding like it's impossible unless you try you will never know and that is that stuff this thread i have had enough with you people i am out of here don't bother replying to this because i will not read it.

xillius200 said:
So is a small group of people not good enough look at bill gates for example creator of microsoft started of with the apple man 2 people now we have microsoft windows so youre point is?
Also i do not care about webOS i hate webOS in fact i just wanted to extract my opinion and further fourth nothing is impossible look at wireless electricity about a few years ago seen as a myth now look at it. This could be done one day maybe not now but sometime in the future.
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Do the developers on XDA have a source of revenue that I'm unaware of? Do they have billions of dollars in profits that spurn growth and encourage new, more experienced developers to join the business and help? Is there even a business at all?
The answer is no. There is no R&D department behind XDA. There is no venture capital firm supporting cyanogen or kingklick with money.
Again, you really have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't just a "take open the phone, look at the serial number on the board, and then write your own driver." This is something that computer manufacturers spend years developing their own proprietary code and then design specific chipsets to work with it. Years and money, lots and lots of money.
And you're still forgetting that webOS and even parts of android are not open sourced, which complicates it even further, even to the extent of making a webOS port technically illegal under copyright laws.

xencor said:
not to mention Android was meant to use on these HTC phones anyway.
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Click to collapse
not 100% true, both android and WebOS run on top of the linux kernel, drivers are already written, like I said, its not a rewrite of drivers, rather interfacing with hardware may be different, but thanks to GPL, we can more easily figure out how the software interfaces with the drivers since we have drivers (albeit for some different hardware) for both Palm AND Android devices... obviously this would all be no easy task... but hell, android work tits on my Kaiser, with the radio/sms/wifi/camera/gps.... and it WASN'T designed to run android!
something else to mention I suppose is the work done to get Mer Linux (Open source replacement for Maemo) running on the Kaiser/Vogue, it booted and its X system worked enough to get to setup information, albeit the screen was too low of a res to do much and it has far too little ram to be useful... let me put it this way... it would be entirely possible for someone to port WebOS over, though the radio/BT/Wifi/accel/etc. may not work initially. I'd be stoked to try out test builds, and I think so would MANY other people.
*broken down: android wasnt meant to run on these phones, linux was meant to, and android was meant to run on top of that*

xencor said:
Do the developers on XDA have a source of revenue that I'm unaware of? Do they have billions of dollars in profits that spurn growth and encourage new, more experienced developers to join the business and help? Is there even a business at all?
The answer is no. There is no R&D department behind XDA. There is no venture capital firm supporting cyanogen or kingklick with money.
Again, you really have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't just a "take open the phone, look at the serial number on the board, and then write your own driver." This is something that computer manufacturers spend years developing their own proprietary code and then design specific chipsets to work with it. Years and money, lots and lots of money.
And you're still forgetting that webOS and even parts of android are not open sourced, which complicates it even further, even to the extent of making a webOS port technically illegal under copyright laws.
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Click to collapse
I have already said in my earlier post that it is not open-source so read b4 you post and even the smallest one man on his own can do someting incredible look at DA cracked the psp 14-15yo and wrote his own drivers and software and look at the ps3 hacker who has found exploit through the memory neither of them have a company or backing just normal people and are you saying that is not possible?
i will not talk any longer all in all webOS is a stupid idea it could be possible one day and end of
ps: I don't like but jmhalder is cool

jmhalder said:
not 100% true, both android and WebOS run on top of the linux kernel, drivers are already written, like I said, its not a rewrite of drivers, rather interfacing with hardware may be different, but thanks to GPL, we can more easily figure out how the software interfaces with the drivers since we have drivers (albeit for some different hardware) for both Palm AND Android devices... obviously this would all be no easy task... but hell, android work tits on my Kaiser, with the radio/sms/wifi/camera/gps.... and it WASN'T designed to run android!
something else to mention I suppose is the work done to get Mer Linux (Open source replacement for Maemo) running on the Kaiser/Vogue, it booted and its X system worked enough to get to setup information, albeit the screen was too low of a res to do much and it has far too little ram to be useful... let me put it this way... it would be entirely possible for someone to port WebOS over, though the radio/BT/Wifi/accel/etc. may not work initially. I'd be stoked to try out test builds, and I think so would MANY other people.
*broken down: android wasnt meant to run on these phones, linux was meant to, and android was meant to run on top of that*
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for talking some sense on the subject that it is possible thank you very much i respect you because you think anything is possible you may go far in the world. the one's who never try may never know and for that will fall behind. You are the only one on here who talks sense and for that i applaud you
ps: Very Much thanks from Xillius200 for believing it to be possible instead of just shooting it down
ps2: It takes a true person to not give up and takes a less person to give up straight away so never give up

xillius200 said:
I have already said in my earlier post that it is not open-source so read b4 you post and even the smallest one man on his own can do someting incredible look at DA cracked the psp 14-15yo and wrote his own drivers and software and look at the ps3 hacker who has found exploit through the memory neither of them have a company or backing just normal people and are you saying that is not possible?
i will not talk any longer all in all webOS is a stupid idea it could be possible one day and end of
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DA did not write his own drivers. "Cracking" and using existing drivers is not nearly the same thing, nor is using a loophole in a PS3 memory chip.
Again, i'm sorry, but you just have no idea what you're talking about.
As someone else has pointed out by now, it might actually be possible to get webOS on an android phone, but that's only because the drivers already exist, not because cyanogen and XDA are gods and can do what you're proposing.

xencor said:
DA did not write his own drivers. "Cracking" and using existing drivers is not nearly the same thing, nor is using a loophole in a PS3 memory chip.
Again, i'm sorry, but you just have no idea what you're talking about.
As someone else has pointed out by now, it might actually be possible to get webOS on an android phone, but that's only because the drivers already exist, not because cyanogen and XDA are gods and can do what you're proposing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not calling them gods writing different drivers seperate to a device is possible and DA did write some of his own drivers for the psp for addons and linking to the pc. Also to gain access to the memory he had to make a device and write a driver for it that devices already came wth a driver but he wrote his own. This was a different person XD
And i have had enough i am out of here dont know why the hell we are argueing you do not know much about android either so leave it at that and keep the forum open
I here by cease this fighting going on and say good day

is bootloader finally "cracked"?

http://www.wix.com/palmercurling/project-bootloader-freedom
seems that kexec methods works...and probably today or tomorrow source code will be released....

if that's true, then it'll be good news
that will make Dexter porting of 2.2 even easier

Hm... Maybe if this work.. Dexer can try with 2.3

grigorbg said:
Hm... Maybe if this work.. Dexer can try with 2.3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dexter already explain why 2.3 is not going to work

He didn't say it's not gonna work, he say it MIGHT not work but he'll test it. That's what he said.

Vistaus said:
He didn't say it's not gonna work, he say it MIGHT not work but he'll test it. That's what he said.
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Click to collapse
Well, he said that 2.3 may need newer kernel, not an 2.6.29 that works on xt720, cause of bootloader...
So, i hope that will helps!

That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. He said MAY need a newer kernel, but it's not clear yet 'cause he doesn't have the XT720 yet nor 2.3, so maybe it'll work.
And btw, I dunno if you guys actually read the first post in this thread but if the bootloader is cracked in some way, then it doesn't matter anymore 'cause we can flash any custom kernel then.

Sure, it's only was message about why Dexter says it's not going to work.
People from droid-developers.org also already tried much attemps... with kexec also...
For now.. no success =(

Motorola just marked the request to unlock the Droid X bootloader as "Implemented" here!!!:
http://getsatisfaction.com/motorola/topics/please_unlock_the_droid_x_bootloader
This may be related to:
http://www.droid-life.com/2011/01/1...bootloaders-looks-to-partner-with-developers/
which links to a Facebook response by Motorola that reads:
Motorola - We apologize for the feedback we provided regarding our bootloader policy. The response does not reflect the views of Motorola.
We are working closely with our partners to offer a bootloader solution that will enable developers to use our devices as a development platform while still protecting our users’ interests. More detailed information will follow as we get closer to availability.
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Click to collapse
I'm incredulous. I really don't want to get my hopes up. We need a "support group" and seven step program.
Edit: More coverage of the incident
http://androinica.com/2011/01/19/motorola-unsure-of-its-own-bootloader-policy/
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2011/01/20...m-users-to-go-away-then-begs-for-forgiveness/

why is the bootloader so difficult to crack?
Why is the bootloader so difficult to crack?

c_urbanek said:
Why is the bootloader so difficult to crack?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The short answer is that the security in the bootloader is based on very high quality mathematics.
Basically it's what's called a NP-complete problem (I think, I'm an armchair cryptographer only). Think of this this way, we have some sort of algorithm (equations are a kind of algorithm):
45 * x + 32 = 76
Now, there are two ways to find values of x that satisfy this equation. The way we are taught in school is to use the rules of arithmetic to convert the algorithm into a simpler algorithm that yields an expression we can evaluate directly. That's pretty fast.
Now assume you didn't learn how to do that and that nobody in the world knows how to do it. The other way to solve it is to try plugging in values of x on the left-hand side until you find a value that when evaluated gives 76. That way could take a very long time. In fact, you can calculate how long you expect it will take based on how long it takes to test a single value and the expected number of values you'll have to test. (On computers, numbers can be very large, but they can't be infinite)
Fundamentally, this gets to a very important unanswered question in computer science and mathematics called "P ?= NP" which essentially asks: can every possible algorithm be simplified somehow to be solved faster than plugging numbers (over simplified a bit) or are there some algorithms that can only be solved by trying different values until one works. Digitial cryptography is based on finding algorithms that can't be solved easily with current knowledge (the research question is can you find an algorithm and prove that it can never be simplified--again oversimplified a bit).
The bootloader uses one of these algorithms (in the sense that publicly nobody knows anybody that can simplify it--insert NSA conspiracy theories). I think I read somewhere that based on the keysize and using the best algorithms available to search the keyspace, the expected amount of time required to crack the key using all of the available computing power in the world is something like 15-30 years. There was the distributed cracking effort, but they were using very inefficient algorithms that supposedly would take at least over 1000 years (some people said it would take longer than the life of the universe). Some have said that hardware that should be available in five years should be able to break it in five years or something like that. I'm probably remembering the details wrong, but in any case it's not good news.
So, that leaves us with essentially five ways to crack the bootloader:
(1) Look for the key with the expectation to never find in the lifetime of the device,
(2) Find a bug in the implementation of the the bootloader itself (could be either a hardware or software bug),
(3) physically modify the phone to disable the check,
(4) find an efficient attack on the algorithm (i.e. prove this particular encryption isn't one of the mythical unsolvable ones),
(5) convince Motorola to just give it to us.

I picked this XT720 phone over iphone as it will be better with open source community will do new tech y things I will learn and enjoy best we can ever have as in phone. Motorola did tried to diminish the impact for product with the poor upgrade support. I was thinking of selling ( as most of us did thought before Dexter the man behind the rescue operation and best of this community ) my phone. Now i must say it has much better response, satisfaction and relief. This new news has now pumped up everything that we are going to be best in this competition. I think only we have to look for is the alternative for front camera ( something like usb camera attachment or something like that.. may be silly of me I am dreaming ) and this will be best product in the line. Love you people for making my wrong decision worth. Cheers to my XT720 community.
Thanks to all who joined hand for better:

@Mio: Indeed. Btw, number 3 or 4 is already solved by booting a ROM via 2nd init. That is what ROM-bakers do on the Milestone 2 and the Defy. We could do that too.

We need a top noch developer to crack this bootloader that's it.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA Premium App

[REF] Tegra Technical Reference Manual

Here is the link: http://developer.nvidia.com/tegra-2-technical-reference-manual
Isn't this what we need for better Tegra development? Especially for getting custom ICS kernals booted and writen.
This hasn't been out for more than a month.
Admins please move this thread if not in the correct forum.

jwuerz said:
Here is the link: http://developer.nvidia.com/tegra-2-technical-reference-manual
Isn't this what we need for better Tegra development? Especially for getting custom ICS kernals booted and writen.
This hasn't been out for more than a month.
Admins please move this thread if not in the correct forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That certainly LOOKS useful.
EDIT:
Did you notice that's just the table of contents? It's not the ACTUAL technical reference manual. You have to apply and be approved to gain access.

I've applied. It takes up to a month to gain access, BUT it looks like this could be rather useful. More people need to apply.
Sent from my LG-P999

This line makes the point quite moot:
"Internal functional units such as video and graphics hardware acceleration are controlled by NVIDIA provided software and not documented."

jeremyritzmann said:
I've applied. It takes up to a month to gain access, BUT it looks like this could be rather useful. More people need to apply.
Sent from my LG-P999
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See, the problem is, even if you were given the technical specifications, are you capable of writing a driver from the ground up? If not, then you've simply wasted NVidia's time, and there's apparently a LOT of that going on right now.
See this post:
https://plus.google.com/115049428938715274412/posts/KycR8ZjeUiS
One of the things the OP mentions in the comments is that NVIDIA is being overwhelmed (his word was Confused) by the amount of community requests for all sorts of things, when half of them aren't even what's needed to get ICS working, or are being asked for by people not qualified to do anything with them.
Those who know what to do with technical reference manauls already know how to apply for them. Others applying for them is just going to make NVIDIA 1) get tired of dealing with the community and 2) Liable to make it HARDER to get information in the future because they're tired of people wasting their time.
I'm not getting on to you, just saying that we "in the community" need to have a little perspective on the matter. ICS source hasn't even been out for more than a couple of weeks. The OEMs, even if they're intent on releasing ICS for devices, haven't even had time *WITH* resources from NVIDIA, to get much done.

I disagree
I have to believe that the most effective way of getting the open access we want (ala Texas instruments and omap) is to make them aware of just how much demand there is for it.
In other words, show them just how much easier their life could be if they open sourced the drivers.
Everyone should call nvidia and tell them exactly what we want
If they have to deal with 20 calls a day re this issue, they might take it seriously.
It worked with htc and Sony re locked bootloaders.....
Call nvidia at 408 486 2000 and ask for developer relations.
Then just politely make them aware of our desire to have the drivers open sourced.
----Someone more versed with the technical issues -- is there anything else we should be asking for? ----
Sent from my Kindle Fire using xda premium

Well, seeing as I am quite versatile when it comes with coding period,I don't think there is any reason to think that I couldn't write one if I had the *time* to do write it. I do agree that as far as other folks requesting open sourcing the driver code, we do need to be more *focused* in our approach, instead of bogging down their CSR departments with useless demands.
On a personal note, I wouldn't be quite so flamish when referencing a simple comment from someone you don't know, about a comment that obviously isn't an in depth explanation of *why* I've requested the technical specs manual(which was done WELL before I commented on this thread). It makes you appear as if you're intent was to come off as bullish. It does an equal amount of damage to the community as less than dev savvy folks requesting/posting silly things.
/rant
lotherius said:
See, the problem is, even if you were given the technical specifications, are you capable of writing a driver from the ground up? If not, then you've simply wasted NVidia's time, and there's apparently a LOT of that going on right now.
See this post:
https://plus.google.com/115049428938715274412/posts/KycR8ZjeUiS
One of the things the OP mentions in the comments is that NVIDIA is being overwhelmed (his word was Confused) by the amount of community requests for all sorts of things, when half of them aren't even what's needed to get ICS working, or are being asked for by people not qualified to do anything with them.
Those who know what to do with technical reference manauls already know how to apply for them. Others applying for them is just going to make NVIDIA 1) get tired of dealing with the community and 2) Liable to make it HARDER to get information in the future because they're tired of people wasting their time.
I'm not getting on to you, just saying that we "in the community" need to have a little perspective on the matter. ICS source hasn't even been out for more than a couple of weeks. The OEMs, even if they're intent on releasing ICS for devices, haven't even had time *WITH* resources from NVIDIA, to get much done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my LG-P999

Agreed, but there are plenty of dev's that could use an in depth look at the chipset specs.
GenghisKhan67 said:
This line makes the point quite moot:
"Internal functional units such as video and graphics hardware acceleration are controlled by NVIDIA provided software and not documented."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my LG-P999

hi, someone can download and upload the documentation for Tegra 2 and Tegra 3