Related
Does anyone out there know of any phone software for "PPC 2003 Phone Edition " that tracks call duration over time? Another words like on Nokia phones, i would like to see how many outgoing and ingoing calls I made for the month and then can reset those totals to zero at the end of a billing cycle. Extra cool software would actually have user adjustable Primetime" and "Evenings and Weekends" time slot settings.
I know in Pocket PC 2003 Phone software, I can look at the "Call Duration" tab in the device manager. In the least, would anyone know where in the registry to hack that back to zero on a monthly basis?
Thanks,
Dano
Have a look to PhoneDashboard (shareware)
You can try DKToday which is in development and is free
Thanks for the super prompt response, i just downloaded the DKTODAY cab and am playing with it now.
I'm running Faria's final edition of WM6 on my Wizard, pretty much stock except for mun's keyboard and a few apps. This rom is almost perfect for my needs.
The only problem is that when the wizard is connected to my computer USB port to charge, it won't go to sleep... In fact, if I press the power button, it turns off for maybe a minute then turns right back on again!
I searched the forums looking for an answer and came up with very little. I do recall seeing some tips for preventing this behavior several months ago but can't seem to find the post anymore (???).
Actually I had this issue fixed on this rom at one time, but then I went and re-flashed about 20 times, trying all the latest cooked versions out there before returning to Faria's. But now I can't recall the fix for the power-on problem!
So, could someone help me out and re-post the fix?
Many thanks in advance...
Don't know of a fix, but this happened to me also when using Faria's ROM and still happens now using the NBD ROM.
Have same problem with Core 2.0n
Same with my XDA ROM. I thought thats a WM6 feature that I have to live with.
It's a common problem then...
Ok, this sounds like a common problem then.
I've been thinking about it, and if I recall, I think the posted fix might have been from mrfrazz or dr puttingham... I'll try to PM them (not that they know me) and see if I can get them onto the thread....
Wasn't from me.
Ok thanks for that mrfrazzz.
How many folks have this problem? Does anyone have a fix?
Sorry, not from me either.
remove the pin password (start -> settings -> lock). used to solve this problem for me on older WM6 rom's. Don't know if the problem still exists in the newer roms...
nbd 7.4 has this problem and also wm6 business edition.
I am using the Dopod Pro 838 [Mobile 5] and have the same issue, when connected it does not sleep, no matter how many times I close the screen off
Thanks everyone for chiming in. So this is a widespread problem.
Is there a solution? Or is everyone just living with it?
For what it's worth, I've searched and searched and can't find that post with the solution. The only reason I can think of is that the post was removed. (?)
Oh well. I guess I'm going to have to live with it like everyone else until an answer turns up. If anyone has any info or ideas post here and we'll try it out.
WM6 TNT 3.0.... same problem
settings, system, backlight settings?
i'm using an enhanced xm6 and i don't seem to have this problem when i charge with the usb at work (no activesync installation). perhaps you may need to disable that, because i recall reading somewhere that activesync tends to wake the phone from time to time to constantly resync pim information.
if you don't like the backlight on, you can go to settings, system, backlight, and change the settings there. I know on faria's roms, the backlight goes off after some time, even when it's plugged into the usb. t-mobile's default rom and the one i'm currently using don't turn off, unless i hit the power button. (but unlike what was initially stated, my phone doesn't turn back on).
or in case i've misinterpreted something...i recall reading that in some roms, the phone would keep waking up due to the push service and it would require some combination of locking the phone to get it working. in those cases, i believe you have to read the respective rom thread. i know farias "the real thing" thread has info on it.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll look into somehow getting better control over activesync.
Yeah, that's about where I'm at, just turning off the backlight and pretending the phone is off. But it still kind of irks me, all I want is for the phone to sync then go to sleep until I need it. And stay off when I hit the sleep button...
I've had this problem forever, and I consider it a "problem" because my phone is overclocked to 273, and I'd like to keep it off to keep the temperature down. It's definetly not a rom issue, but like someone else stated, it's an activesync issue. Even disabling sync options on activesync doesn't seem to help, only thing I can think of is uninstalling activesync, but who the hell wants to do that? Maybe preventing activesync from starting or running in the background on windows start, until you want to open activesync manually?
This is the random wake-up problem that first apeared in some build of WM5 (I guess). I too can't find much info on it but I guess you could remove the pin prompting. It happens due to activesync/wmdc and usb connection while the pin is enabled. I guess this is a bug in WM6 which is yet to be fixed. Hope microsoft and WM6 team reads this thread.
May be end tasking activesync in both phone and system will help. I haven't tried as I live with it and is not an issue for me.
with PhoneAlarm there is an option to disable the ActiveSync scheduling within a profile (eg profile work no ActiveSync, while ActiveSync will still be usable at home)
Maybe this can help you?
btw, PhoneAlarm has some other very nice features, it's still my nr 1 app for the wizard!
hilo,
Just created a new thread for this as its issues are pilling up the other one. i think that thread should be clean and should have only and only contain info about progress on the wm6 rom...
Mods if unnecessary please delete...
Tejas
I would not call it a bug but one of the disadvantages of the ROM is that, similar to these ones which come to Qtek and i-mate, it does not recognise the network settings out of the box but you have to fiddle with them manually. When I use Orange ROMs (and it does not matter if the ROM comes from the UK or Switzerland) everything works with flying colours, despite I do not use any Orange network. Just I have to install Opera Mobile (I hate pocket IE) and voila! Everything works!
Channels don't work.
in india AFAIK channels just provide the cell id i.e the area which i m in... not imp though... no use of channels
ok phil.
if u remove windows update, at least supply it as a cab in the extras folder.
channels don't work.
long pressed side button does not work! it used to start voice note record for the sda and i'd like that to work.
mms.
better camera software. btw htc camera makes the phone SLOW..... not a good one. need an alternate
enable profile switching to silent when long pressing '#' key
default folder for saving pictures on storage card is not my documents\my pictures any more but a lame dcim folder. that would be nice to be changed.
also, sometimes when answering a call, the keyboard stays locked, the call is still on, but the home screen is active and not the call screen.
joystick seems much better but sometimes it doesn't want to work as it should. maybe another driver; if not, this one is good
we need wpa2 for wifi enabled.
also add in the extras folder:
moblue
tcpmp with extra codecs
htc audio manager could be good
if u need the cabs for moblue and htc audio, i have them
there is an newer version of sim manager. v6.10. has a couple of new things (got it if u need it)
and maybe add a good version of opera. not the java one.
we also need a good midlet manager
also a good instant messaging program. maybe a multi client one like oz mobile im, or like im+
mmmhhh after read all this bugs, i better wait a while to update my phone, i find a good idea to write here all the problems with the actually ROM.
Good AD2P drivers
Hi,
Is it possible to have good ad2p drivers with the next rom?
Tomtom 6
I have never been able to run tomtom 6 before the update.
Is it possible now with update? and also which is best version to install?
Kindest regards
I have Push mail configured and GPRS seems to be buggy. once or twice a day GPRS seems to stop working. My Activesync fails with (Can not connect to network or waiting for the network to be available), and in that mode even IE can not connect to any site. I switch off and on the phone function only, GPRS becomes available again.
boneym said:
I have Push mail configured and GPRS seems to be buggy. once or twice a day GPRS seems to stop working. My Activesync fails with (Can not connect to network or waiting for the network to be available), and in that mode even IE can not connect to any site. I switch off and on the phone function only, GPRS becomes available again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I would split your post in two separate ones.
1. the instability of WM6 Alpha - obvious thing, and it should be fixed
2. but I also see something else. I see from many posts that one application which sets all the settings with one click is quite urgently needed. I know that something like that exists for Swiss networks http://www.mysmartphone.ch/Freeware/kommunikation/16920.aspx and for the Norwegian ones http://www.smartmobil.no/Article617.phtml but I think that everybody would agree that such an universal solution would be something good. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about programming but I can imagine this kind of program and a separate database. The database would be filled by volunteers - I can, for example, provide all the settings of Polish operators, someone else British, French, etc. It would be good esp. for people who travel a lot.
unlocksmith said:
I have never been able to run tomtom 6 before the update.
Is it possible now with update? and also which is best version to install?
Kindest regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TomTom 6 is made for Pocket PCs. It requires a touch screen to work, so you won´t be able to control it. I have had it running on my 8310 but it´s just silly to even have it installed. Go for 5.2 if you can find it.
I have problems syncing my contacts if i have more than 305 contacts.
The ActiveSync (or WMDC) hangs saying "attention required". Though, i can make 305+ contacts on the WM6 and sync them back to Outlook! But backwards i get 305 contact limit. Vey, very strange!
With previous ROM everything was ok.
I tried syncing with different PCs, tried unistalling ActiveSync and WMDC - no use. Deleting pim.vol doesn't help too.
ActiveSync on WM6 gives me 0x8503001c error.
Thanks for your help. I got my old one to work. I really like the colours in tomtom 6 tho.
Also on my phone i have a problem(s) with tomtom 5, I cant type in the post code B8 followed by anything like B8 3NU. Also I can't use certain Points Of Interest such as hospitals or cash dispensers. These work fine on my Wizard but I wana be able to do it all with TORNADO!
The software of dual sim selector don't works with that new rom (adapter of 10ª generation).
Well, I don't know if it works; the soft does not appear by any side.
I proved several solutions, but no it has worked to me.
Somebody can help me?
Thanks.
tejasphatak please rename the topic to "WM6 Torando bugs/issues" , so we can generally post bugs/issues regarding all WM6 tornado roms
Bugs:
1. The locklevel change to 1 randomly..
2. Sometimes the phone freeze when unloking kepyad.
It happened two times.
Issues:
1. When playing audio the CPU load is ~ 25-30% (@180 Mhz). It is normal ? (can someone with WM5 test?)
If using EQ and other effects the CPU load increase.
A taskmanager with cpu load info can be found here (it's for PPC but works also ,somehow, on smartphones)
More CPU load = more power = less battery
2. The system lags while writing to storage card (big cards, > 1gb). This issue is present on WM5 Tornado roms too (except iphone rom wich seems to deal better with sd).
Need a beter SD driver .
Same when copying via ActiveSync (has anyone tried usbfn driver from HTC VOX?)
3. when TCPMP is playing audio it keeps the backlight alive
Using andot's PEE V6.
bsider said:
I have problems syncing my contacts if i have more than 305 contacts.
The ActiveSync (or WMDC) hangs saying "attention required". Though, i can make 305+ contacts on the WM6 and sync them back to Outlook! But backwards i get 305 contact limit. Vey, very strange!
With previous ROM everything was ok.
I tried syncing with different PCs, tried unistalling ActiveSync and WMDC - no use. Deleting pim.vol doesn't help too.
ActiveSync on WM6 gives me 0x8503001c error.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
I've got a similar problem to this. It used to work fine until last week. I can't remember changing anything in my Hard/software setup but now it just hangs and only some of the contacts sync.
I've searched in the forum but can't seem to find any other reference to this problem. If anyone knows a solution (or any discussion of it) please let me know. Basic device info below:
SPV m3100 (HTC TyTN) running WM6
Windows Vista Home Basic
Windows Mobile Device Center
Thanks.
Hi,
HTC today posted a hot fix for bluetooth at their e-Club.
Description:
Bluetooth Hot Fix (for HTC TyTN II)
Dropped calls sometimes occur when Bluetooth is on. If you encountered the same problem, please download this Bluetooth Hot Fix and install it on your device.
Br,
Mads
Downloaded it from HTc.cOM
Installation instructions
Follow the instructions below to download and install the hot fix on your device:
Make sure you have Microsoft ActiveSync® installed on your Windows XP PC or Windows Mobile Device Center on your Windows Vista® PC. You can find Microsoft ActiveSync from this link or Windows Mobile Device Center from this link.
Connect and synchronize your device with your PC via Microsoft ActiveSync® or Windows Mobile Device Center using the USB cable.
To download thehot fix, first select the check box below. Next, select thehot fix and the desired FTP site then click Download.
Copy the hot fix, which is a cab file, to your device.
To install the hot fix, tap the cab file and follow the on-screen instructions.
Here is the file:
http://rapidshare.com/files/77588898/TyTNII_BT_Hotfix.zip
Enjoy,
Nadavi
Extracted madsnm's posted cab, which is the same as nadavi's. This is a replacement file for OEM\OEMDrivers\TIInit_4_2_38.bts (a.k.a. \windows\TIInit_4_2_38.bts for non-chefs).
I've re-attached it as the naked file (without the cab installer or the self-extracting exe installer).
Any decent chef should be able to figure out how to turn a single file into an OEM package
Edit: Forgot to add that there are no registry entries, as I've already created registry dumps before/after install...
Edit3: It *IS* the same as the one in the AT&T 1.60 ROM. I did a file compare and there are no binary differences.
Although I am not having any problems as mentioned in the fix log, but the idea of HTC releasing something for us is great .
taiseer999 said:
Although I am not having any problems as mentioned in the fix log, but the idea of HTC releasing something for us is great .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats right!
Waiting for WM6.1 ROM! or maybe new WM06 Full Touch rom from HTC....
Just my two Cents....
Nadavi
Nadavi said:
Thats right!
Waiting for WM6.1 ROM! or maybe new WM06 Full Touch rom from HTC....
Just my two Cents....
Nadavi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, 6.1 ROM doesnt really looks appealing to me, i believe most of us would want our freaking D3D driver to improve our kaiser speed.
come'on HTC, give us our driver. We want our kaiser to work @ its full potential!
almost forgot, to the brothers at the top 3 post, THANKS for sharing!
Solved my "bad" connection to the BT carset - thx....
ruffruff said:
well, 6.1 ROM doesnt really looks appealing to me, i believe most of us would want our freaking D3D driver to improve our kaiser speed.
come'on HTC, give us our driver. We want our kaiser to work @ its full potential!
almost forgot, to the brothers at the top 3 post, THANKS for sharing!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OT but the driver is there. Look here for more info. There's also an XDA thread on this. We just need to tweak it out for general purpose acceleration.
Sleuth255 said:
OT but the driver is there. Look here for more info. There's also an XDA thread on this. We just need to tweak it out for general purpose acceleration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't say much if they hacked something for Coreplayer, or it was a general fix from HTC for all Windows Mobile devices running the MSM chipset.
Would be nice if the Kaiser was as snappy as that dual-keyboard Pantech running WM6 Standard.
I'm at loss to say if all the UI (and general system) lag is from too much use of .NET, lack of hardware accelerated graphics drivers, or Pro just runs slower than Standard because of the touch-screen support.
Hmm...wonder why i didn't get an email from the e-Club about this. I log into the site and find the fix just fine but I thought I'm supposed to get a notification about it (i'm pretty positive that was my preference when signing up)
Anyway, does this hot fix help in pairing bluetooth with car kits and devices that had problems or were incompatible thus far.
I've never experienced dropped calls with my BT connection, but I do have another problem that is pissing me off.
I have two different Pioneer stereos in two different vehicles. The AVIC-Z1 and the Premier DEH-P980BT.
When I first try to initiate a call with the 980, the connection is made, but the audio is somewhere in limbo between the phone and car speakers. There is a BT connection, but it takes about a minute and a half to actually start sounding through the speakers. By that time, the receiving end has hung up.
Since it only happens for the first call of the ride, I've been getting in the car, calling my voicemail, and waiting until I can hear the voicemail prompts. After that, I can make and receive call normally until I shut the car off.
If this fixes the problem I'm having, I'll be ecstatic.
Hi,
I have no noticable problems with BT exept the sound quality. Will be anything better or maybe worst if I install this upgrade? Does anybody have experience on it?
Thx
Mikus
NuShrike said:
It doesn't say much if they hacked something for Coreplayer, or it was a general fix from HTC for all Windows Mobile devices running the MSM chipset.
Would be nice if the Kaiser was as snappy as that dual-keyboard Pantech running WM6 Standard.
I'm at loss to say if all the UI (and general system) lag is from too much use of .NET, lack of hardware accelerated graphics drivers, or Pro just runs slower than Standard because of the touch-screen support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like they had to change something with the drivers. So they're there but poorly implemented. And sounds like they'll give us driver info once its released. I'll buy it if it fixes the D3D support!
Still garbled on my Tilt with an Infinity G35..now how do I deleted the Kai6492_HotFix from my Programs directory? I can't see to find it...yet the icon is still there. Any one know?
Flapjack said:
I've never experienced dropped calls with my BT connection, but I do have another problem that is pissing me off.
I have two different Pioneer stereos in two different vehicles. The AVIC-Z1 and the Premier DEH-P980BT.
When I first try to initiate a call with the 980, the connection is made, but the audio is somewhere in limbo between the phone and car speakers. There is a BT connection, but it takes about a minute and a half to actually start sounding through the speakers. By that time, the receiving end has hung up.
Since it only happens for the first call of the ride, I've been getting in the car, calling my voicemail, and waiting until I can hear the voicemail prompts. After that, I can make and receive call normally until I shut the car off.
If this fixes the problem I'm having, I'll be ecstatic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
here's what causes that issue on my phone:
hit the ms voice command button and hear the beep prompt.
now hold the button down till you get the cancel beep.
now make a call. you will get no audio either direction.
turn the phone off, and the sound starts working. turn it back on and it's gone again.
key the ms voicecommand button again and let the time expire instead of holding to cancel.
make another call, and the audio will be fine, except for a 5 to 10 second delay.
see if this is how your phone behaves also. if I don't ever cancel a ms voicecommand by holding the button down, everything seems to work fine.
After installing the "fix" I could no longer use voice dial with any of my bluetooth headsets. Uninstalling the fix fixed it.....go figure.....
I think that HTC really need to have more, serious, knowledgable beta testers to tryout this stuff with various software and hardware scenarios before releasing the device. Some of these "bloggers" that they send new, unreleased devices to are either cronies or don't know much, or will not test the devices thoroughly and/or report back to HTC what problems that they experienced. I am a Verizon and AT&T user. Have seen these anamolies between diferent devices for some time now. The Mogul and XV6800 don't have the same issues we have, however, I guarantee you they do have others such as the De-activated GPS flaw that happened recently in the Mogul.
Unfortunately my Kaiser didn't work still with this hotfix. I installed on my device few times, I rebooted the headset and nothing. Probably it's like that because my ROM is 1.83, it's original polish version of it. How can I resolve the problem of bt headset ?
The fix file is a CAB (download from HTC e-club)... I install the CAB and find a link under software menu... I tap it... and another installation is done... I must soft reset the device... and stop...
Okai... so I think in this way the fix is gone... but... I have yet the cab installed under Software CAB and Installed application... can I uninstall it? The trashes pissing me :-D
or for att users go here....
http://forum.xda-developers.com/search.php?searchid=8811535
I have had several problems with TomTom Navigator 6 (installed from HTC Touch Cruise CD). Using USA/Canada complete map purchased from TomTom.
History
1. The "Turn on sound" setting in Change Preferences does not stay set to on. Every time I start TomTom, the sound is turned off.
2. After a destination has been selected, the voice directions are incomplete. TomTom will say "After 100 yards..." rather than "After 100 yards, turn right". TomTom NEVER indicates what direction to turn in advance of the turn. It will tell you which direction to turn when you are at the point of turning, but never in advance.
3. I have a problem when selecting a contact as the destination. Click "Navigate to..." then "Contact", then scroll through my contacts and make a selection. In the vast majority of cases, Navigate to returns the address with the street number AFTER the street name rather than before it.
Thus TomTom returns:
Main Steet 134, Bryn Mawr
The address given for this contact can't be understood. Would you like to enter the address yourself?
All of my contacts are synced from Outlook/Exchange and are all set up correctly. This bug renders the Navigate to Contact fetaure useless.
First follow-Up
I finally got around to call TomTom regarding these problems and I am not happy with their response!
According to TomTom, the HTC Touch Cruise is not on their supported list. That's correct folks, not supported. Doesn't matter that it comes packaged with the TC, it's not supported. Blame HTC (they say) for including the license with an unsupported device.
The technician suggested that I downgrade to Navigator 6 V6.030 which supposedly addresses my issues. I did the downgrade and determined that:
1. The sound setting still is not maintained. In fact, it now required that I press Turn on Sound twice for this feature to work.
2. I am still not getting the complete voice response, only "After 1/8 mile..." No turn left or turn right. TomTom said I should reformat my memory card and reinstall app and maps and that MIGHT help. Well, I'm, not going to go through all of that unless I know it will work, too many other things on the memory card to deal with.
3. Navigate to.. Contacts now actually seems to work! But the ironic thing is that TomTom told me that the Navigate to... Contacts feature is ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED even though it is in their software! They claim it was never completed and therefore not supported.
This is absurd. The hardware is not supported by the software that it was bundled with, and the software itself has features that are not even supported by the developer.
Second follow-Up
I uninstalled and reinstalled TomTom 6.032 from the CD. Also uninstalled and reinstalled the maps.
1. Default sound setting seems to have been fixed.
2. Still have the problem with incomplete audio directions ("In 1/8 mile...)
3. Navigate to Contacts also seems to be working though not tested extensively.
Am I the only user with this TomTom oddity? Why on earth will it not state the entire direction? TomTom has been no help, anyone here have any ideas?
I cannot say this for the US/Canada maps but for the Benelux/Western Europe maps, the directions are OK and I don't encounter your problem.
I'm using the default Dutch voice in version 6.032.
Try a hard reset and install tomtom again on the clean rom, see what happens with that.
German maps work fine, too. I'm using Lisa (as a speaker , who is more or less Tom Tom default I believe.
Sound settings are kept correctly.
Version 6.032
I don't have any problems with TomTom either.
IF you want to try some other voices, you could drop me a PM and we'll "arrange" so you can get them from me (got a package of many different voices)
Kimma said:
I don't have any problems with TomTom either.
IF you want to try some other voices, you could drop me a PM and we'll "arrange" so you can get them from me (got a package of many different voices)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was preparing to hard reset my TC (last resort) when I figured that there was nothing to lose by changing the voice. I did, and it worked! Never would occur to me that the voice selection would have any impact on this problem.
But, unfortunately, the problem with keeoing the default sound setting has returned. Each time I start TomTom, the sound is off. ARGH!
Anyway, thank you for steering me in the right direction. Hopefully this one issue is now put to bed.
Nice to be able to help
maybe you could be so kind reading my thread and answer it? (since it seems i'm the only one in this forum that actually owns a TC *cough cough*)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=382568
I get exactly the same problem with the sound. I have an XDA Orbit II, sound in TomTom always off, have to keep changing it, removed it, I use Co-Pilot and Navigon now, both are great.
RE: Sound problem
I have the same problem with the sound and it was bugging the hell out of me too. Speaking to a friend of mine who has the same problem, apparently it is due to a known bug in the current TomTom release: If you have a data connection open when you start TomTom, it thinks you are in the middle of a voice call and mutes the sound. My friend also informed me that there should be a new release from TomTom soon that addresses the issue. I don't have any links but there may well be another thread somewhere on this forum about it if you search.
The sound on my TomTom will occassionally turns itself off and requires it to be turned on TWICE to work again. I think its a known bug. The problem used to be worse on my P3600/Trinity.
Update- from the kaiser forum http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=330235
It's a bug, you have to switch off the data connection before starting TomTom.
SIMPLE FIX: Roll the volume wheel and sound turns on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
might also work on the Trinity?
My friend also informed me that there should be a new release from TomTom soon that addresses the issue
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure? Rumour has it on GPS-specific forums that TomTom are not actively working on updating Nav6 (for PDAs) because its too much like hard work; much more revenue in (simpiler) dedicated units which are more stable
peace2make said:
I have the same problem with the sound and it was bugging the hell out of me too. Speaking to a friend of mine who has the same problem, apparently it is due to a known bug in the current TomTom release: If you have a data connection open when you start TomTom, it thinks you are in the middle of a voice call and mutes the sound. My friend also informed me that there should be a new release from TomTom soon that addresses the issue. I don't have any links but there may well be another thread somewhere on this forum about it if you search.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting. Prior to launching TomTom, I used Comm Manager to turn off the data connection. When TT launched, sound is indeed on! When sound is off as a result of an active data connection), using the volume slider on the TC does not turn the sound on. Seems like the only way it to go to settings and select Sound On twice.
Hopefully TomTom will correct this bug. May also try downgrading to 6.030 to see if that works but I don't know what features I'd be losing (if any).