Is there in planning USB-C alternative mode for audio? What would be the best way to promote this or could some mod put this topic to a subforum that is likely be read by people involved in USB standards development?
Why would we need one?
In wake of Apple smart device developers are getting rid of 3.5mm headphone connector. USB-C headphone adapters currently in market seem in general to have very low audio quality and low audio output power. Main reason for this is probably that a DAC has to be implemented inside the adapter with very limited space and price constraints.
99% of smart devices have a DAC because they have speakers and mic. By all likelyhood the integrated DAC is of higher quality than ones inside USB-C - 3.5mm female adapters. Maybe even audio signal could be stronger (based on that it is stronger on smart devices that have 3.5mm output).
Typical scenarios where this would be useful.
- smart device used as a musical device (synthesizer or digital audio workstation (DAW)) where you need low latency for audio.
- smart device used as a music player in scenarios with unreliable wireless connection and desire for audio without lossy compression.
- interview scenarios, games..?
Related
Looks like the bundled male USB-C to female USB-A adapter's intended purpose is to help users transfer their data from old phone to new Pixel.
However, I have a Fiio Q1 Mark II DAC/AMP that has micro USB as input so I used the bundled USB-C to USB-A adapter to connect my Pixel 2 to this DAC but audio still comes out from the phone's speakers.
How can I output the audio through USB-C? In developer options, I select USB Configuration to "Audio Source" but nothing changed. Or I need to use a USB-C to micro USB cable?
To clarify things, here is my configurations: Pixel 2 <-> bundled USB-C to A adapter <-> normal micro USB cable <-> Fiio DAC <-> Headphones (3.5mm jack)
Thanks.
You should be able to use the combined line-in/line-out port instead of the micro-USB, though this would require you to first use the bundled USB-C to 3.5mm adapter. This is problematic if you're not rooted since the Google DAC has terrible distortion, and can only be fixed with root. The setup would be:
Pixel 2 -> Google USB-C to 3.5mm DAC (digital gain <75%) -> 3.5 male to 3.5 male -> Fiio Q1 DAC using 3.5mm line-in -> Headphones
A USB-C to micro-USB cable may work.
Telperion said:
You should be able to use the combined line-in/line-out port instead of the micro-USB, though this would require you to first use the bundled USB-C to 3.5mm adapter. This is problematic if you're not rooted since the Google DAC has terrible distortion, and can only be fixed with root. The setup would be:
Pixel 2 -> Google USB-C to 3.5mm DAC (digital gain <75%) -> 3.5 male to 3.5 male -> Fiio Q1 DAC using 3.5mm line-in -> Headphones
A USB-C to micro-USB cable may work.
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Thanks for your reply.
I have finally made it work. USB-C peripherals must be connected in order. You need to power on the DAC first, connect the micro USB input then connect the USB-C to the Pixel last so the Pixel would recognize the device on the other end.
Another question raised. I have also tried connecting Fiio DAC to iPhone via micro USB to Lightning cable. It worked instantly. iPhone wouldn't let me adjust volume on the phone. Everything was handled by Fiio. Which I think is the correct way to do it since iPhone is just sending digital signal to the DAC and let it do all the work.
But with the Pixel, I'm still able to adjust volume on the phone. I wonder why the phone could do it since it should not do anything with the digital audio signal. I also would like to know how loud should I set the volume at phone and adjust the rest at the AMP.
Also, Pixel's battery is draining fast! Because USB-C supports charging connected devices. I'm not able to disable USB-C power output. The LED light on Fiio indicates that it's charging. The reason that I didn't want to use Google's USB-C to 3.5mm DAC is because the distortion issue. I believe Fiio DAC is much more powerful and audio quality is better.
BlackMiracle said:
Another question raised. I have also tried connecting Fiio DAC to iPhone via micro USB to Lightning cable. It worked instantly. iPhone wouldn't let me adjust volume on the phone. Everything was handled by Fiio. Which I think is the correct way to do it since iPhone is just sending digital signal to the DAC and let it do all the work.
But with the Pixel, I'm still able to adjust volume on the phone. I wonder why the phone could do it since it should not do anything with the digital audio signal. I also would like to know how loud should I set the volume at phone and adjust the rest at the AMP.
The reason that I didn't want to use Google's USB-C to 3.5mm DAC is because the distortion issue. I believe Fiio DAC is much more powerful and audio quality is better.
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Apple I believe uses a line level, the Pixel's is amplified so you can still control it on the phone.
I'd recommend hopping over the the Pixel 2 XL forum, there are technical details that might answer your question. Objective sound measurements.
Regarding the Google DAC, the distortion goes away below about 75% digital gain. In that chained setup, you'd be looking to send as pure a signal as possible with little to no digital gain to the Fiio, which would then cleanly amplify it for playback.
Hi. The audio is okay on the phone. Good with earphones but okay when I use the headphone jack to my car stereo input. Why not bluetooth? Its because direct connect provides the best sound. NOW HEAR THIS. I plugged in my essential phones usb head jack adapter (essential phone has no headphone jack but they do provide a USB C headphone jack dongle) and its like a WOW. I couldn't believe how much the quality of the audio improved. I am talking about tremendous improvement. Like a different phone WOW. Now whether it was due to essential having a dac chip in the dongle (I think it does) I have no clue. I was shocked because normally the question would be why does a dac chip USB C headphone cable work on a phone with a headphone jack? Did Moto decide at the last design phase was to include a built in jack? The dac cables only supposed to work on phone like the essential or the google pixel 2 etc if I am correct.. Well i am da.... sure glad it works on the Moto G6. How you proceed with what you get/prefer to purchase is up to you. I don't know what the end result will be because I truly don't know. The one I have from essential worked miracle wonders. I only suspect it will work with other USB C dongles with a dac chip. Man, i am digging this phones audio improvement. I am like WOW.
Check it out with something like Viper installed and disable Dolby for a little while to see if that also improves the sound. I use an aux cord to play music in my car as well the Viper HiFi Magisk module on top of tweaking some of my head unit settings, and it puts out some of the best sound for music. Can get my old 2004 Carolla to sound like it has a 10-11" sub in it just from the stock stereos and a Pioneer head unit ;p
Not really that big of a surprise, considering that my old Moto E4 would use a pair of USB-A headphones plugged into a OTG adapter. Feel free to call me out, but isn't the USB-C headphone dongle just getting talked to by the phone like a USB sound card?
Most newer (and some older) phones are all capable of USB audio routing. Just take a look in developer options to see some settings.
Coming from LG G7 Thinq+, which as best headphone DAC ever build in a smartphone, S10e DAC sounds inferior. Even though Samsung says it supports 32bit audio, it's not satisfying enough.
Can anybody suggest any external portable Amp or Amp + DAC to get the audio sound closer to LG's DAC?
Is only an Amp is enough or do I need to buy a DAC + Amp to drive high impedance headphones?
Audio output from the 3.5mm Jack is lacking. Looking for a solution.
Hey all, just looking for any input on a USB-C to Headphone adapter/DAC. Wanting something slim or inline for travel. Quite a few options on Amazon ranging from $5-$50, but looking to everyone here for any input with real life experiences. I prefer wired headphones/buds over Bluetooth when traveling.
Under $50 will be the Fiio KA1 or Periodic audio rhodium. If you only want Amazon.
There are lots more good/better options in Ali for under $50.
Thanks. Only looked briefly at Amazon, dont know why I didnt consider checking out Fiio. I have an older, bigger, DAC from them for my HD600's.
I have the ka3 I'm using on my PC and it's amazing.
slugger410ft said:
Hey all, just looking for any input on a USB-C to Headphone adapter/DAC. Wanting something slim or inline for travel. Quite a few options on Amazon ranging from $5-$50, but looking to everyone here for any input with real life experiences. I prefer wired headphones/buds over Bluetooth when traveling.
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Following as I've gone through 3 adapters and each works at first but then get loose in where it connects to the phone and the audio pauses.
mariojohn said:
Following as I've gone through 3 adapters and each works at first but then get loose in where it connects to the phone and the audio pauses.
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I ran into this on my 6t eventually and hand to put a new usb-c port in. I'm not a fan of an all-in-one port for this reason. But I also understand that a headphone jack can only get to be so small/thin...
Weird, never had an issue with any usb c port wearing out
Lots of people swear by the Apple USB C to 3.5mm adapter, and I can confirm it works great. People say that it's the best overall mobile (or even desktop) DAC until at least $100
Depends on the source and headphones (or speakers) you're playing through. The apple dongle won't be a bottleneck for low to mid quality source and phones but if you use high quality either I would get something nicer.
Apple does a great job with the low end chip in that dongle but there are much newer, better dac chips out there now.
Entry class USB DAC's (under $80 or so) usually adopt an interface chip communicating with the adaptive mode or the synchronous one defined in the USB audio standard. As in these modes an Android host controller sends audio sampling rate clock signals to the DAC, jitter generated at the host side affects the audio quality of the DAC tremendously.
Higher class DAC's communicate with the asynchronous mode (also defined in the standard) to a host controller, but they actually use a PLL to reduce jitter from the host not to stutter even in heavy jitter situations. As this result, they behave as the adaptive mode with a feedback loop to dynamically adjust the host side sampling clock signals while referring a DAC side clock in a real sense, so even with the asynchronous mode they are more or less affected by host side jitter.
You can see the mode of your USB DAC with root permission by opening "/proc/asound/card1/stream0" on your phone while playing music. See a word in parentheses at "Endpoint:" lines; "SYNC", "ADAPTIVE" or "ASYNC" means that your DAC uses "synchronous", "adaptive" or "asynchronous" mode to communicate to your phone, respectively.
If you like Magisk mod's for reducing jitter, see Audio Jitter Silencer and Audio Misc. Settings.
ctfrommn said:
Depends on the source and headphones (or speakers) you're playing through. The apple dongle won't be a bottleneck for low to mid quality source and phones but if you use high quality either I would get something nicer.
Apple does a great job with the low end chip in that dongle but there are much newer, better dac chips out there now.
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Well I got the FIIO KA1 as an early b'day present over Labor Day weekend. I usually just use buds for everyday listening, but my HD600's definitely sound better with this device. Buds sound better too. Definitely a better bass response, but not over done, and the highs are crisper as well. Not mad at all for the $50 and it's definitely portable.
Basically, will any passive USB-C to 3.5 adapter do, or will I have to use an adapter with a built in DAC?
Because I have half a dozen DAC adapters (including by Google and Apple) and they can be very unreliable with my pixel and s23, depending on which headphones I use.
Any smartphone and any USB to 3.5 adapter has a DAC inside. The only question is its quality. By default, it is just a part of the cost-effective integrated chip, but HiFi-esque solutions equipped with a discrete D/A converter
that makes them much costly in production. Now let's assume the quality of what you get with your smartphone.
If you're looking for a better sound, take a look at something like this.
Big Dumb Object said:
Any smartphone and any USB to 3.5 adapter has a DAC inside. The only question is its quality. By default, it is just a part of the cost-effective integrated chip, but HiFi-esque solutions equipped with a discrete D/A converter
that makes them much costly in production. Now let's assume the quality of what you get with your smartphone.
If you're looking for a better sound, take a look at something like this.
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Thanks. But I am looking for a basic 10-dollar adapter.
I am pretty sure not all phones have a DAC for the usb-c line used out for wired headphones. I am pretty sure the Pixels (starting with P2) and now the Galaxy S22 and S23 do not have one. They only work with adapters that integrate a DAC (I have a few) and do not work with dumb, DAC-less adapters (I have a few of those too).
AFAIK, this device has no internal DAC, anyway it is not specified in its technical sheet.
I have several DACs USB C and they work perfect with this device. BTW, I use Poweramp as music player app.
landsome said:
Thanks. But I am looking for a basic 10-dollar adapter.
I am pretty sure not all phones have a DAC for the usb-c line used out for wired headphones. I am pretty sure the Pixels (starting with P2) and now the Galaxy S22 and S23 do not have one. They only work with adapters that integrate a DAC (I have a few) and do not work with dumb, DAC-less adapters (I have a few of those too).
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Well, you live and you learn: today I became aware of USB-C Accessory Mode. Thank you.
landsome said:
Basically, will any passive USB-C to 3.5 adapter do, or will I have to use an adapter with a built in DAC?
Because I have half a dozen DAC adapters (including by Google and Apple) and they can be very unreliable with my pixel and s23, depending on which headphones I use.
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The phone has a built-in DAC, which sounds pretty good. It can be used with the original Xiaomi USB-C adapter. The jack contact is simply plugged into the USB-C connector.
It's not like Samsung, because there you can only use a USB-C adapter with a built-in DAC, there is no jack output on the USB-C connector! The Samsung external factory DAC has a much worse sound.
osonte said:
The phone has a built-in DAC, which sounds pretty good. It can be used with the original Xiaomi USB-C adapter. The jack contact is simply plugged into the USB-C connector.
It's not like Samsung, because there you can only use a USB-C adapter with a built-in DAC, there is no jack output on the USB-C connector! The Samsung external factory DAC has a much worse sound.
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Thanks
osonte said:
The phone has a built-in DAC, which sounds pretty good. It can be used with the original Xiaomi USB-C adapter. The jack contact is simply plugged into the USB-C connector.
It's not like Samsung, because there you can only use a USB-C adapter with a built-in DAC, there is no jack output on the USB-C connector! The Samsung external factory DAC has a much worse sound.
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Ok but anyway, IMHO, 15 levels of volume is far to be enough. I own 2 hi-res DACs with built-in volume levels.