I get annoyed when I buy a phone or piece of software only to find I need to wait for firmware or other patches to fix it.
Microsoft have got away with it for years.
Take the magician, T-mobile say now no further upgrades. How easy would it be to add native a2dp, it claims bluetooth 1.2
The universal no working fax s/w, modem drivers, native usb disk drivers as opposed to active sync. No a2dp
Avantgo and other s/w not working on the supplied t-mobile build requiring a firmware upgrade and newer version of wm5 from t-mobile.
What constitues a working device? How many of you have had to use hacked or ftp'd rom's to get a stable device, no memory leaks.
How many people have bought a web camera?, printer only to find that the latest windows version does not have a driver, manufacturer won't supply one.
I think under environment and disposal laws , manufacturers should be made to support the devices for at least 5 years.
Consumers invest money and expect some care for their hard earned $.
I think there should be a better enforced 'suitability for intended purpose' on electronic equipment... we are unlucky with PPCs in that they are such an emerging technology right now, so they are full of bugs.
It is a valid issue you've raised.
The problems inherant in rushing a product to market are as old as the capitalist system!
If a company delays too long trying to get all the bugs out of a product they risk being beaten to the market by a competitor ... which is apparently bad. We have seen cases where superior hardware platforms have failed because they took too long to get to market, and software development was all committed to the first product, even though it was far inferior.
Continued development for an old product is less profitable than releasing a new product.
The irony is that companies can get away with releasing new products which have MORE bugs than the old one ... and people will actually pay money to upgrade. Often because they are attracted by features that they don't need, and which aren't properly implemented anyway.
But new or 'upgraded' laws will never stop this. Companies regularly break laws with little concern because they know that they can reap large profits which will offset the problems that may arise IF they are caught.
A pefect example of this is the body of laws governing the environment and abuse of it for dumping etc.
Companies react much more readily to market forces ... really bad publicity will do more to change a company's activities than laws. Look at Sony and their lovely little rootkit.
And the majority of consumers are simply apathetic.
At the risk of inflating egos ... people who can actually be bothered to seek out and participate in a forum like this are the elite. To actually consider flashing a new ROM onto your device is a concept that most members of the public would find overwhelming.
Blogs, webforums, and participating in projects like those carried out by XDA-DEV are more likely to impact on the future of Pocket PC's than laws which are unlikely to be written, and if they are, won't be enforced properly anyway.
That is true... it would be nice to think that perhaps the developers of Windows CE visit this site and learn from what the greatest members of this community has achieved.
Well topic/discussion purposed is Samsung's muddled delivery of ICS part of a larger rumoured back lash from manufacturers whom seem to be upset at Google for three reasons? First is Google’s acquisition of Motorola mobility apparently still doesn’t sit well with OEM's, the discontent has been amplified by reason number two. Some still don’t buy the party line of patent purchase only. This seems ungrateful from an outsiders point of view should this speculation hold true.
See such an article here:
http://www.androidauthority.com/google-motorola-deal-android-manufacturers-73966/
Second is Google trying to execute more control as many in blogs and tech articles have suggested Google should. This has been to address the issues of diversity and “fragmentation” that Google has faced criticism for. To what degree is Google executing control still remains to be seen. On a side note I and others have suggested the OEM’s give a stronger and narrower focus with fewer new devices but more polish and support.
Third is that Google with Android has not shown the preferential treatment the big players would have preferred; allowing smaller brands to gain ground and market share using this open platform. Brands like Archos, ZTE, and Huawei. Also allowed ASUS to gain a foot hold in the mobile market, ASUS who now seems to have a strong relationship with Google.
Samsung’s fudged ICS upgrade alone may mean nothing. But with HTC recent delivery and overhaul of ICS, combined with Sony decision to possibly hold ICS upgrades because it feels they miss the mark of quality could be indications of such unrest with the Manufacturers is more than just rumours. If such unhappiness is present and being actioned or plotted that’s where things turn interesting or concerning.
Many would think this unwise considering the lack of success with Manufacturers own proprietary OS’s. Nokia's Symbian slowly lost out, Bada is nowhere near the success Sammy had hoped for, despite cited as being more popular at the beginning of this year than Windows Phone. Meego didn't see much of a life.
Let me hear what you have to say on this topic
I think regarding the purchase of Motorola, it is definitely seen as simply a patent buyout. There are plenty of rumours of them already trying to sell the hardware side of Motorola.
Gaining 17,000 (or was it 12,000) patents is going to be a very good thing for manufacturers, knowing that they are much less likely to be sued with the added protection from the extra patents. However, if rumours are true and Google is looking to sell to Huwaie (?) then that will be another manufacturer up there all vying for a shot at the big time. The good thing is competition breed competition, so we will see devices continuously being updated and bettered, whereas the iPhone will not see this at such a rate.
I think Google trying to take a bit more control over Android is overall a good thing, even if manufacturers may not like it so much because it means it is harder to put out the cheaper handsets that have been selling so well.
siravarice said:
I think regarding the purchase of Motorola, it is definitely seen as simply a patent buyout. There are plenty of rumours of them already trying to sell the hardware side of Motorola.
Gaining 17,000 (or was it 12,000) patents is going to be a very good thing for manufacturers, knowing that they are much less likely to be sued with the added protection from the extra patents. However, if rumours are true and Google is looking to sell to Huwaie (?) then that will be another manufacturer up there all vying for a shot at the big time. The good thing is competition breed competition, so we will see devices continuously being updated and bettered, whereas the iPhone will not see this at such a rate.
I think Google trying to take a bit more control over Android is overall a good thing, even if manufacturers may not like it so much because it means it is harder to put out the cheaper handsets that have been selling so well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far Google hasn't appeared to have had much influence on Motorola, many because it hasn't been fully approved/finalized. Oddly enough the hold up is China. The strength of the rumour Google selling the Hardware division to Hauwei is the ability to capitalise on the lucrative Chinese market where Android already is dominating.
Time will tell about the patent side, although no evidence is apparent that supports its more than a patent purchase. We'll have to see who gets the next Nexus smartphone and tablet.
I know this discussion has been around for quite some time, and I have read, for example, this and this. But I think that some aspects haven't been discussed yet.
All the arguments mcapozzi gave in the first thread I linked are very true, but, except for the kernel building on the device, which would not necessarily have to be done (there), they are all man-made. And as we all know the system works well for PCs, i.e. I installed Win 10 at the release day on an eight year old machine and everything worked perfectly fine, except for minor issues with the GFX driver, which had been resolved within a few weeks. And, in principle, a modern smart phone is not much different from a PC.
Of course the device manufacturers would be, let's call it reluctant, to agree to something like we have on the PC market. But, wouldn't Google by now have the power to force such a system on the manufacturers? I mean, if they don't play along Google could easily prevent them from using the Play Store and, with a licence change, even future Android versions. Both would probably prevent most companies from selling any more mobile phones.
And in the end I don't think it would be that bad for the manufacturers; obviously they would be selling less phones, but on the plus side they'd:
have greatly reduced software development costs (at least if they do Android upgrades properly right now)
be able to charge more for their phones, as they are actually worth more
sell more higher-end devices, because people would be willing to invest more money, if they knew that they could use their phones for as long as they like (or at least as long as the hardware is powerful enough to run the newest OS and apps)
still be able provide custom UIs as some sort of "app", if they wish
And, apart from that, phones will still wear off (physically) and there will still be hardware innovations that will make people want to by new phones, even if their old ones have the newest OS; and we must not forget the built-in batteries
Looking at this from the Google perspective: it would make the Android ecosystem much more attractive, and after all Google makes it's money with Android phones being used, not sold.
Now, I don't think I have to list the advantages for the users, do I?
So, what do you think this? I'd be glad to hear.
-Julian
P.S. No, I don't think Google is bold enough to actually do something like this, would be cool though.
Hi all,
I'm the type of person that doesn't really renew hardware until it dies out, and don't usually care for too fancy things either, so I keep my budget as low as possible.
I do appreciate vfm choices though, so I do pay for what features I can fit in my budget.
I also highly value a clean, bloatware-free software experience, good support (security updates and updates in general), that's why I've always been at least somewhat in touch with the custom ROM community so that I can keep my phones alive for as much as possible).
That said, I have a Redmi Note 4X (served me well for about 4 years, currently running PixelExperience) that is dying on me, so I've been checking out budget options (ideally around the 200 +-25% euros range).
I'm very sad to see that Xiaomi (which I've always preached to friends as best vfm, despite my despise of MiUI) is adopting the anti-OSS approach of MTK hardware, while at the same time has resentfully moved away from it's Android One phones and initiative (https://www.xda-developers.com/xiaomi-deletes-twitter-poll-android-one-miui/).
Similarly other budget choices seem to follow way (eg Samsung budget lines).
I was hoping to buy into 5G with my new device since some 5G towers are starting to appear in my country's big cities, but with a quick search I see that if I back out of 5G, I might still have some 4G options that can keep me in the Snapdragon realm and therefore the custom ROM community.
All that said, what would be my best vfm low budget choices with the current market?
Also please feel free and encouraged to comment on my perception of Mediatek gaining market share and it's effect on the community.
I'd find it interesting to see a different perspective on it if anyone has one.
Hi, if you are fixed on the ~200,- Euro price range go for a used Pixel3 in good condition. In a big german portal ("ebay-Kleinanzeigen") you can grab one in the price range of 150-180,-. i buyed one for 110,- and another for 140,-. My other productive phone is a Pixel2 running LOS18.1 currently. I buyed it to play/test but it is a very good device, so i started to love it ( ) and i use it as my daily business driver. You should be able to get one at ~ 100,- Euros.
The other alternative is the Pixel5. Disadvantage: its new and used one are at €~400-500,- currently. I expect that the price will go down when the Pixel6 is out in the market . The P5 is well supported with LOS either.
Edit: Have to tell that a screen size of 6"/ Height of 145-150 Millimeter is the maximum for me. I dont want a tablet, yes most current phones are tablets!
I think used* or an older new* discounted phone are viable options.
5G is overrated and not needed.
I just picked up a second new N10+ 4G running on Q although my savings weren't tremendous, the phone is.
That's what I think about the latest generation of technology and Android OS... not much.
The chip shortage will continue into 2022-3 more than likely. Grab it while you can as prices are still climbing. Tough times and more are likely coming.
*only from known good vendors. Protect yourself fully! A lot of scamming and misleading advertising going on now. Best to talk to the vendor on the phone first.
zimral.xda said:
Hi, if you are fixed on the ~200,- Euro price range go for a used Pixel3 in good condition. In a big german portal ("ebay-Kleinanzeigen") you can grab one in the price range of 150-180,-. i buyed one for 110,- and another for 140,-. My other productive phone is a Pixel2 running LOS18.1 currently. I buyed it to play/test but it is a very good device, so i started to love it ( ) and i use it as my daily business driver. You should be able to get one at ~ 100,- Euros.
The other alternative is the Pixel5. Disadvantage: its new and used one are at €~400-500,- currently. I expect that the price will go down when the Pixel6 is out in the market . The P5 is well supported with LOS either.
Edit: Have to tell that a screen size of 6"/ Height of 145-150 Millimeter is the maximum for me. I dont want a tablet, yes most current phones are tablets!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I am kinda fixed on the price. Could maybe go up to 250 but anything over that would be a waste for my personal needs.
To be honest I'm slightly skeptical about the used market especially at this time since the shortage seems to have promoted scamming
That said a lot of people have suggested used Pixels as being great value so I'll still think of this option, thanks for your insight!
blackhawk said:
I think used* or an older new* discounted phone are viable options.
5G is overrated and not needed.
I just picked up a second new N10+ 4G running on Q although my savings weren't tremendous, the phone is.
That's what I think about the latest generation of technology and Android OS... not much.
The chip shortage will continue into 2022-3 more than likely. Grab it while you can as prices are still climbing. Tough times and more are likely coming.
*only from known good vendors. Protect yourself fully! A lot of scamming and misleading advertising going on now. Best to talk to the vendor on the phone first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As stated just above ^, I'm slightly skeptical of the current used market.
I bet the N10+ is an amazing device, however its way out of my budget (~870) and, honestly, an overkill for my needs.
Would you have any suggestions for an "older new" phone around that budget with a snapdragon
From my searches on the biggest local search engines for tech products since I posted this, the only new options that come up which mostly fill my needs appear to be:
- Moto G 5G Plus (4GB ~220)
- Oppo A72 (~210)
- Oppo A74 (~240)
- Xiaomi Redmi 9T (~170)
- Xiaomi Poco M3 (~170)
- Xiaomi Poco X3 (6GB ~200 / 8GB ~235)
Pretty much everything else has Mediatek.
Would any of those be a good choice with solid support for custom ROMs?
Are there any others out of this list available on EU vendors?
My area of interest in phones is pretty narrow.
Mostly Samsung as it crosses over to my device. The Note 9 seems nice and their price is down now.
I don't root so I'm not the best one to advise you on that.
Maybe get the phone through a carrier deal and distribute the payments over time.
Again it's better to avoid Android 11 and above.
You said your phone is "dying", it may be easier to repair it for now to get more room to maneuver.
@Joakpa
Taiwan's MediaTek has not suffered in any way from the global shortage in the semiconductor market
With regards to Custom ROMs:
Custom ROMs ( mostly ) simply are AOSP based de-bloated Android versions: they aren't compiled to be run on Android device with a specific SoC, they only must match SoC's architecture ( either 32-bit or 64-bit ).
With regards to SoC:
Only when it comes to play high-end games ( video editing, and similar CPU demanding tasks ) the type of SoC is of interest: MediaTek SoCs are a good choice for daily use tasks, whereas Qualcomm's Snapdragon and/or Exynos SoC and also Hisilicon Kirin SoC are the right choice if heavy task must get done, IMO.
In any case it should be at least a 8-cores 64-bit SoC to get Android flawlessly running.
@jwoegerbauer
Taiwan's MediaTek has not suffered in any way from the global shortage in the semiconductor market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's my point exactly... the result of this has been that more and more phones (eg Xiaomi's budget lines) that used to be based on Qualcomm Snapdragon (which HAS suffered from the shortage: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chip-shortage-qualcomm-idUSKBN2B32OO https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/qu...hip-shortage-stretching-into-2022-11627504790) are now turning to MediaTek, therefore hurting the reach of the custom ROM community to the extent of the budget phone market.
With regards to Custom ROMs: / With regards to SoC:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do understand that. And it appears that you probably do understand exactly what I am referring to as well. Your own answers to this thread shows you do. MediaTek is a nightmare for custom development (Edit: mostly due to closed-source if it's not already clear enough), and compatibility of custom ROMs is a requirement as I've explained. Therefore MediaTek phones are out of the question for me.
My favorite budget phone for custom ROM is the Motorola Moto G8 Power. $220 CAD
Joakpa said:
@jwoegerbauer
That's my point exactly... the result of this has been that more and more phones (eg Xiaomi's budget lines) that used to be based on Qualcomm Snapdragon (which HAS suffered from the shortage: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chip-shortage-qualcomm-idUSKBN2B32OO https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/qu...hip-shortage-stretching-into-2022-11627504790) are now turning to MediaTek, therefore hurting the reach of the custom ROM community to the extent of the budget phone market.
I do understand that. And it appears that you probably do understand exactly what I am referring to as well. Your own answers to this thread shows you do. MediaTek is a nightmare for custom development (Edit: mostly due to closed-source if it's not already clear enough), and compatibility of custom ROMs is a requirement as I've explained. Therefore MediaTek phones are out of the question for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't write for just writing an opinion.
But considering the same position I was in years ago as you write yourself today so I have a few pennies to donate.
Spoiler: read if you want
I was skeptical of mediatek phones until I researched more and asked more. I found a good person who explained and showed me how much mediatek phones would evolve over time. Yes! I was a loyal Qualcomm user for the rest of my life if I didn't have this guy to give me new insight.
Not! I haven't stopped using phones with Qualcomm. But I went to personally verify everything that was said precisely because I was urged to really have my opinion.
In the beginning everything was weird and hard to understand. But for those who have knowledge in qualcomm, even if little, it was very easy to deal with and understand the steps to have Custom recovery and Custom ROM.
There were 4 mediatek phones in my hands and what I saw over time was a large community of people helping each other and new knowledge that I didn't have.
So the lesson for custom recovery and many ROMs is to have a developer or person who has a lot of knowledge to create everything smoothly. Mediatek's Source Code has been a big issue in the past. Research the number of mediatek phones that have custom rom partially working and fully working. It's bigger than having exclusivity for a particular qualcomm phone with a fully functional ROM.
Yes! Qualcomm phones are faster and easier with custom ROM. It still needs a developer with the skills and time to have something bug free.
Many qualcomm developers also know how to do something with mediatek phones. So the word about Custom ROM development is: having a good developer.
The bad part: Many qualcomm users make donations either by phone or in $. But it is difficult or rare for mediatek users to make donations either by phone or $.
As for your current question: without good money to buy something new and decent, no doubt choose a good phone with qualcomm. To get a different view, buy 2 used phones one with qualcomm and one with mediatek (choose the best SOC, processor and good RAM, battery and processor) within budget. This will give you a unique experience and your opinion at the time.
We are now with GSI and many A9;A10;A11 phones already have the ability to handle minor bugs without having the help of developers.
Good luck on your journey.
DragonPitbull said:
I wouldn't write for just writing an opinion.
But considering the same position I was in years ago as you write yourself today so I have a few pennies to donate.
Spoiler: read if you want
I was skeptical of mediatek phones until I researched more and asked more. I found a good person who explained and showed me how much mediatek phones would evolve over time. Yes! I was a loyal Qualcomm user for the rest of my life if I didn't have this guy to give me new insight.
Not! I haven't stopped using phones with Qualcomm. But I went to personally verify everything that was said precisely because I was urged to really have my opinion.
In the beginning everything was weird and hard to understand. But for those who have knowledge in qualcomm, even if little, it was very easy to deal with and understand the steps to have Custom recovery and Custom ROM.
There were 4 mediatek phones in my hands and what I saw over time was a large community of people helping each other and new knowledge that I didn't have.
So the lesson for custom recovery and many ROMs is to have a developer or person who has a lot of knowledge to create everything smoothly. Mediatek's Source Code has been a big issue in the past. Research the number of mediatek phones that have custom rom partially working and fully working. It's bigger than having exclusivity for a particular qualcomm phone with a fully functional ROM.
Yes! Qualcomm phones are faster and easier with custom ROM. It still needs a developer with the skills and time to have something bug free.
Many qualcomm developers also know how to do something with mediatek phones. So the word about Custom ROM development is: having a good developer.
The bad part: Many qualcomm users make donations either by phone or in $. But it is difficult or rare for mediatek users to make donations either by phone or $.
As for your current question: without good money to buy something new and decent, no doubt choose a good phone with qualcomm. To get a different view, buy 2 used phones one with qualcomm and one with mediatek (choose the best SOC, processor and good RAM, battery and processor) within budget. This will give you a unique experience and your opinion at the time.
We are now with GSI and many A9;A10;A11 phones already have the ability to handle minor bugs without having the help of developers.
Good luck on your journey.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me start by saying I really appreciate your message!
I always like to see a different perspective on any of my views and having them challenged
You are absolutely right about the effect of a good dev being in control of said custom ROM development for ANY device, however (in my experience) developing for something closed source is more often than not "guesswork" and "hacks/workarounds". A good dev surely can often guess right, but it is still guessing. Write some code that guesses the output of system A and the input of system B, then bind them together so that you establish an interface from A to B. Now, there is a driver update for system A (and/or B), your interface is broken and your hard work is void...
You might be right about donations playing a part in it (I have no knowledge around that but I could see it being true), but I can also see developers not wanting to put time and effort into developing something that could crumble down at any given time (and it being out of their control). Of-course you could ignore driver/firmware updates or whatever other updates, but then what's really the point of developing past official Vendor Support periods anyway?
To get a different view, buy 2 used phones one with qualcomm and one with mediatek (choose the best SOC, processor and good RAM, battery and processor) within budget. This will give you a unique experience and your opinion at the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My current finances do not encourage playing around with multiple phones at a time (I could, but it would not be ideal ) and I'm only looking to buy a new one mostly out of necessity, however I will keep your suggestion in mind for once I get the chance to have a bit more wiggle room in my budget. That said, do you have some specific MTK device in mind that you've seen having reasonable to solid support of ROMs?
Thanks again for taking the time to contribute to the conversation!
It tooks me a total of >~ 5 years to find "my" phone. I tried alot of them all buyed used or old ones from my wife & daughters. Huawei 8860, Mate20, P10, Xiaomi Redmi3, iphone5, Samsung A8, Samsung XCoverPro, GalaxyS5mini, GalaxyGIO, GalaxyS5 just some to name. At the end of the day i will stay with the famous GalaxyS5 as long as they run LOS and for real Production/Daily driver the Pixel2 and the Pixel3. I do not pay more than 120-150 € per phone. Point. I am able to select and buy used phones without getting ripped off. My next phone in ~ 2 years or so will be a used Pixel5. I dont want a phone without IP68. I am able to open a phone case and replace batterys, i have the knowledge and all necessary tools. And i like smaller phones.
I made a list of features i want: IP68, max height of 145mm, replaceable battery, headphone jack, good LOS support, good camera at night shots.
It is nearly impossible to get all of these so i removed the replaceable battery and the headphone jack.
And i end up buying..... PIXELS. Except the Pixel4 due to the bad battery and the Pixel4a due to the missing IP67/68.
mediatek and xiaomi are best supported rom in community if you want custom rom.
If they removed the pre-loaded apps such as Samsung Pay and other proprietary aspects of the preloaded bloatware from their newest flagship tablet.. Are there any legitimate reasons that would prevent them from being able to sell an unlocked version? The cost would likely be higher due to the potential loss of future profit generated by the ads and other miscellaneous items and services pushed on the user in the standard samsungized android UI. Is there something beyond that which makes it impossible?
I know this has been discussed at length over the years, and in multiple threads. But I have been unable to find something that sums it up definitively in a way my simple mind can grasp.
So I would like to apologize for asking, but I would sincerely appreciate any replies that might make it clear to me.
Many thanks,
ouiji said:
If they removed the pre-loaded apps such as Samsung Pay and other proprietary aspects of the preloaded bloatware from their newest flagship tablet.. Are there any legitimate reasons that would prevent them from being able to sell an unlocked version? The cost would likely be higher due to the potential loss of future profit generated by the ads and other miscellaneous items and services pushed on the user in the standard samsungized android UI. Is there something beyond that which makes it impossible?
I know this has been discussed at length over the years, and in multiple threads. But I have been unable to find something that sums it up definitively in a way my simple mind can grasp.
So I would like to apologize for asking, but I would sincerely appreciate any replies that might make it clear to me.
Many thanks,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I recon the price would be way too high. No one would buy that. Say for the top model, the s8 ultra. It is 1500 euros now. If they wanted to go the route you are suggesting, in order to compensate for profit loss, they would need to set a price of at least twice that price. Would you buy a tablet for nearly 3000€? Or for even more? Keep in mind, with chip shortages nowadays, it could rank the price even higher. For a company to compete with Apple, they need to make the same profit. Given that the iPad pro top model is 2000 euros and the fact that Samsung also sells mid range tablets and phones, they need to have a better profit - loss strategy.