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Hey guys!
I have a question to you, owners of the Galaxy S7. As we know from other threads Galaxy S7 uses PWM to control screen brightness. I am interested in this phone and it has been my favourite to buy. I read many reviews and I was really satisfied for what I saw. And then I entered the Notebookcheck's review of S7 and realised what PWM is. As a result... I have very big question mark when it comes to buying this phone. PWM is seem to be a big defect for me, it's hard to believe that such a company can release a phone, which can produce headaches and eye strain or even make flickering visible to some group of people!
Some people say it's a big problem, but reviewers excluding Notebookcheck don't even mention that and say it's a perfect screen. So I have a question to you - what is the truth? Can you see the problem, do you feel bad after using the screen for a long time, is it possible to see flickering at 236 Hz? Thanks in advance for you answers!
No you can't see flickering
You'd have to be super human to see flicking at 236Hz, most PC LCDs are 50-60Hz and you don't see the flickering, florescent lights are 50-60Hz and you can only just see it if the bulb is dying
*Detection* said:
No you can't see flickering
You'd have to be super human to see flicking at 236Hz, most PC LCDs are 50-60Hz and you don't see the flickering, florescent lights are 50-60Hz and you can only just see it if the bulb is dying
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Sorry Detection, but your comparisons fail in this case. What LCD screens have is a 60 Hz refresh rate (or higher for e.g. gaming displays). That means, that the screen content is refreshed/output 60 times a second. But the backlight is not pulsed. It is constantly on. You would really notice a 60 Hz on-off-pulsing of the backlight.
Flourescent lights have an afterglow, and are driven by a 50 or 60 Hz sine wave AC. So it doesn't go off and on instantly.
I own a Galaxy S7 myself and I do notice the flickering. Some people are more sensitive in perception than others. I notice it with different strength in different situations. The dimmer the screen brightness is set, the more it is noticable to me. I assume, it's because of pulse width ratio - the dimmer the brightness is set, the shorter is the on, and the longer is the off time. And it is more noticable to me with bright font on dark backgrounds than the other way round. I'd really say, that this is the biggest disadvantige of Samsung's OLED displays. On my former S3 it was also noticable to me, even stronger due to a lower frequency. But I'd say, I can live with it - I really like the vivid colors of these AMOLEDs on the other hand.
It would be interesting to know if the brightness control of OLED displays of other manufacturers is done the same way, or if there are other techniques existing
Edgar_M said:
Sorry Detection, but your comparisons fail in this case. What LCD screens have is a 60 Hz refresh rate (or higher for e.g. gaming displays). That means, that the screen content is refreshed/output 60 times a second. But the backlight is not pulsed. It is constantly on. You would really notice a 60 Hz on-off-pulsing of the backlight.
Flourescent lights have an afterglow, and are driven by a 50 or 60 Hz sine wave AC. So it doesn't go off and on instantly.
I own a Galaxy S7 myself and I do notice the flickering. Some people are more sensitive in perception than others. I notice it with different strength in different situations. The dimmer the screen brightness is set, the more it is noticable to me. I assume, it's because of pulse width ratio - the dimmer the brightness is set, the shorter is the on, and the longer is the off time. And it is more noticable to me with bright font on dark backgrounds than the other way round. I'd really say, that this is the biggest disadvantige of Samsung's OLED displays. On my former S3 it was also noticable to me, even stronger due to a lower frequency. But I'd say, I can live with it - I really like the vivid colors of these AMOLEDs on the other hand.
It would be interesting to know if the brightness control of OLED displays of other manufacturers is done the same way, or if there are other techniques existing
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You're seriously telling me you can see something flashing at 236 times per second? Sorry but no
I'm one of the persons that if the screens have a low refresh rate I get headaches and get tired, however since long time gone with technology this doesn't happen. I don't have any issue with the phone and use it sometimes hours in a row and for a full load of operations. Car navigation, social messaging, reading news and articles and internet searches. No issue at all for me and it's been a great screen. I use however a 3M privacy film, so it lowers the quality of the screen.
I use this phone in my Gear VR where it is a inch from my eyes and I don't notice any flickering. The screen is great!
It is great, no doubt. But, believe it or not guys, some people do recognize the flickering
Have had the Note 20 Ultra from T-Mobile since Wednesday and then phones been be great except for two flaws. One is native gestures still not working 100% smooth with third party launchers - which is okay, I am using FNG anyway, but another is the screen brightness.
Despite being in direct sunlight, the panel doesn't get bright. Samsung claims 1500 nits of brightness, it definitely doesn't get there through either manually sliding the brightness or setting it to auto brightness. Definitely isn't as bright as my OnePlus 8 Pro.
I've annoyingly factory reset the phone to no avail. Anyone else having issues?
Yes, it's not great .... my Note 8 is brighter in normal use.
The panel does get brighter in strong daylight but the maximum manual brightness is poor.
AhsanU said:
Have had the Note 20 Ultra from T-Mobile since Wednesday and then phones been be great except for two flaws. One is native gestures still not working 100% smooth with third party launchers - which is okay, I am using FNG anyway, but another is the screen brightness.
Despite being in direct sunlight, the panel doesn't get bright. Samsung claims 1500 nits of brightness, it definitely doesn't get there through either manually sliding the brightness or setting it to auto brightness. Definitely isn't as bright as my OnePlus 8 Pro.
I've annoyingly factory reset the phone to no avail. Anyone else having issues?
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It is some kind of protection bec extra brightness for long time damage Amoled displays so they decided to limit it in normal usage
It's bright but the white point is um, weird.
Reminds me of the Surface Pro IPS panels, always, always, too green!
And the ability to adjust RGB levels has nary an effect!
I want the ability to calibrate the display properly FFS!
I know it's a decent display but gimping the calibration ability makes about as much sense as putting bias ply tires on a Ferrari!
cpufrost said:
It's bright but the white point is um, weird.
Reminds me of the Surface Pro IPS panels, always, always, too green!
And the ability to adjust RGB levels has nary an effect!
I want the ability to calibrate the display properly FFS!
I know it's a decent display but gimping the calibration ability makes about as much sense as putting bias ply tires on a Ferrari!
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If you read what samsung say about its Dynamic Amoled panels you will understand why the white looks weird , they have implemented a Hardware blue light filter which filters the harmful blue light emissions that is why all new samsung displays show white a llitle yellowish , It might not be the best looking but is is safe for your eyes and renders a more accurate colors.
hoss_n2 said:
If you read what samsung say about its Dynamic Amoled panels you will understand why the white looks weird , they have implemented a Hardware blue light filter which filters the harmful blue light emissions that is why all new samsung displays show white a llitle yellowish , It might not be the best looking but is is safe for your eyes and renders a more accurate colors.
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What's the point of having that?
It's clearly inferior to my professional displays.
Proper calibration and white point is *everything*.
It does NOT look yellowish, it has too much green.
That looks horrible.
After using it for a day I cannot believe how much better my Mac, 11 Pro Max and S20 Ultra looks.
Can you please tell me if the screen isn't bright if adaptive mode is turned off? (120hz)
Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
Brava27 said:
Can you please tell me if the screen isn't bright if adaptive mode is turned off? (120hz)
Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
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Its significantly brighter with it off
mickeyleah said:
Its significantly brighter with it off
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Yeah, that is what someone pointed out. Thanks
Compared to the Note 10+ it's significantly brighter even in 120Hz, and I often need to lower it even with the adaptive brightness on.
It's somewhere around 1/5 or 1/6th of the brightness bar.
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
60
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
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normal for amoled screen
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
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Click to collapse
You have a defective display get it replaced ,& no this isn't normal with oled screens
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
blackhawk said:
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
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I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
saidgta said:
I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
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Is that in a completely dark room?
If you're not using a incandescent light source for room lighting that may cause it.
Otherwise regardless of screen brightness or display frequency it should be not be showing anything except what's being displayed.
At that price it better be spot on.
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
screen lines
Hi. I just got my Note 20 Ultra and I have the same problem. I see streaks in my photos. If I switch between 60 and 120Hz, sometimes the lines disappear, but not always.
saidgta said:
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
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Not good. Was thinking maybe background LED lighting might be "strobing" it.
Probably a firmware issue but could hardware is my guess.
Maybe software... try clearing the system cache on boot menu, a hard reboot and clearing graphic driver data even if it reads zero. If you have PD MDM use that to clear instead of in Settings.
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
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Yes, I know someone that replaced the phone, but new phone has the issue too.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
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Click to collapse
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
blackhawk said:
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
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Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
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Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
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That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
blackhawk said:
That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
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Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
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Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
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Click to collapse
On the 10+ the color sliders are weak too.
A 3rd party overlay app works but is a pain.
Overlay apps won't work with Q though I believe.
Rather sloppy of Goggle and Samsung... this is an ongoing issue with Androids; no color calibration
Fortunately the 10+'s aren't too bad but it the color blind coders need to get up to speed...
Androids need color calibration.
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
doggydog2 said:
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
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It's not the OLEDs that are the issue as the display on my 10+ is the best display I ever used.
It's the firmware/drivers and perhaps the >60 hz hardware. It's very disconcerting that it's not sorted out yet.
Well that's Samsung. It may be fixed. Samsung just pushed out yet another Buds+ firmware update today. Wow. They keep trying, I'll give them that... the best the Buds+ ever sounded.
So there's hope. The bad news is it will most likely need to be a firmware update if it is fixable.
Flashing the Buds is a lot easier (and less risky) than patching the bloody phone firmware.
Based on issues like this and the abomination that Q and above are, I may simply buy another backup 10+ 512gb phone running on Pie and call it good for the next 3 years.
Both Samsung and Goggle/Android have been practicing drop the ball like drooling kindergarten ftards lately
saidgta said:
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have same issue..! Have you sorted out this issue!?
Today i was measuring s21 brightness in the store and was shocked i was getting 850lux readings (from s10+ sensor) meanwhile 12 pro max was showing 780 lux. I wanted to compare two phones next to eachother but guy says they cannot take the phones away from the table. Though, super lucky, the guy himself owned an s21(this is not a samsung store in case you missed) and lets me compare them side by side. I compare and s21 is noticably dimmer, very close to my s10+. Now im confused, i got brighter readings then why?
So i took his phone to the store s21 and there was a huge brightness difference. We updated both s21's and after letting them cool down (cuz they dim when hot) the results were still same. His s21 was nowhere near store s21's brightness. His s21 gave about 500lux reading meanwhile store one gave 850.
Take the numbers with a grain of salt since the sensor is s10+ and brightness reading changes depending on if you hold the measured device diagonal or straight.
But turns out review sites arent wrong. S21s manual brightness is rated at 400 nits which explains why its so close to my s10+(310) and so far from 12 pro max.(800) Meanwhile store s21 shows 800nits manually.
So if you were to buy it, you only get 400 nits manually. I suppose its a trick to make you believe the screen is super bright but its only in the store.
By enabling video enhancher and opening up youtube, guys s21 also goes up to 800nits, but only in that youtube app and video player (maybe one more thing i forgot too) Keep that in mind if you are shopping for a s21.
Edit: (in case you are curious, store s21 showed 800nits whetever auto brightness was on or off)
Firmware.
blackhawk said:
Firmware.
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We updated both phones to latest if thats what you mean.
But i saw a "display mode"( i am from turkey so dont know exact translation) in store s21 which said stuff like " dont turn this on/off if you arent autohorized. It does stuff like reset the phone regularly" and some bunch of other stuff. It wasnt written there but i suppose this brightness boost comes from that "display mode" or "exhibition mode"
Maybe another one of tricks in the Samsung bag of marketing tricks that they are notorious for.
Operating at or near full brightness with a OLED display is never a good idea though.
You can kill them fast like this especially in direct sunlight.
It's not just the OLEDs in the display, there are thousands of mosfets in there too and very little heat sinking capacity for all of them. The brighter it is, the more heat the display needs to dissipate.
A lot of that heat is dissipated through the front of display it's self.
blackhawk said:
Maybe another one of tricks in the Samsung bag of marketing tricks that they are notorious for.
Operating at or near full brightness with a OLED display is never a good idea though.
You can kill them fast like this especially in direct sunlight.
It's not just the OLEDs in the display, there are thousands of mosfets in there too and very little heat sinking capacity for all of them. The brighter it is, the more heat the display needs to dissipate.
A lot of that heat is dissipated through the front of display it's self.
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Click to collapse
Yea but moderation is key. Not like we will use max all the time, but being able to go max whenever we desire is a good experience. Much better than feeling like your display could do better.(know from my s10+)
I think heat isnt much of a concern either since all displays dim when phone reaches a certain temeperature, automatically.
Besides, subpixels wont be max intensity all the time when watching vids or playing games so its not that bad.
As long as you dont blast max brightness 7/24 it should be fine imo
theblitz707 said:
Yea but moderation is key. Not like we will use max all the time, but being able to go max whenever we desire is a good experience. Much better than feeling like your display could do better.(know from my s10+)
I think heat isnt much of a concern either since all displays dim when phone reaches a certain temeperature, automatically.
Besides, subpixels wont be max intensity all the time when watching vids or playing games so its not that bad.
As long as you dont blast max brightness 7/24 it should be fine imo
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High energy blue OLEDs fail first... there already been people reporting "burn in" with OLED displays.
They have a finite lifespan; the brightest stars burn the shortest.
As for thermal throttling, sometimes it works other times things get cooked.
blackhawk said:
High energy blue OLEDs fail first... there already been people reporting "burn in" with OLED displays.
They have a finite lifespan; the brightest stars burn the shortest.
As for thermal throttling, sometimes it works other times things get cooked.
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Click to collapse
Burn in could be a display lottery i guess. Of course oleds are very susceptible to it but i think it happening in 1-2 years is too fast unless like, someone uses it at max brightness for few hours every day with white navigation showing(very static). I guess ill have to see how my s10+ fares, so far no issues kind of a heavy user here.
I like the phone and really want to buy it. However, one thing that keeps me hesitant is PWM on this phone. It’s actually lower than P6 pro had https://9apps.ooo/
I would really appreciate to hear some feedback from those who bought it and use it 5+ hrs SOT daily.
How does the display feels on your eyes in general ? How your eyes feel after reading in complete darkness or candle light for a while ?
lanesmang said:
I like the phone and really want to buy it. However, one thing that keeps me hesitant is PWM on this phone. It’s actually lower than P6 pro had
I would really appreciate to hear some feedback from those who bought it and use it 5+ hrs SOT daily.
How does the display feels on your eyes in general ? How your eyes feel after reading in complete darkness or candle light for a while ?
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Click to collapse
First, not sure what PWM is and as for how it affects people's eyes is relative to each person's eyes. Not to mention screen settings are customizable per each person's preferences
By PWM do you mean Pulse Width Modulation ? That should not be a problem on any display as long as you don't have extreme high speed eyes.
Maybe refresh rate but starting with 60 hz it also should be easy on eyes, besides you can use 120 hz which is extremely smooth.
As a "wake up early and play with phone" fella I do not have any problems with flickering light or refresh rate.
I haven't had any issues with this phone but I don't seem to be PWM sensitive anyway.
There is far far more to it than just the PWM frequency! The "common" thought on this is that the LEDs are ON for the ON phase of the PWM cycle, and OFF for the OFF phase, but this isn't actually the case because the circuitry and LED cells have *capacitance*, which basically means that they smooth out the pulses, allowing them to blend together and not actually flicker.
Yes, some really really crappy screens will flicker, but these aren't those. The PWM frequency set will account for the capacitance of the circuits.