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Hey guys!
I have a question to you, owners of the Galaxy S7. As we know from other threads Galaxy S7 uses PWM to control screen brightness. I am interested in this phone and it has been my favourite to buy. I read many reviews and I was really satisfied for what I saw. And then I entered the Notebookcheck's review of S7 and realised what PWM is. As a result... I have very big question mark when it comes to buying this phone. PWM is seem to be a big defect for me, it's hard to believe that such a company can release a phone, which can produce headaches and eye strain or even make flickering visible to some group of people!
Some people say it's a big problem, but reviewers excluding Notebookcheck don't even mention that and say it's a perfect screen. So I have a question to you - what is the truth? Can you see the problem, do you feel bad after using the screen for a long time, is it possible to see flickering at 236 Hz? Thanks in advance for you answers!
No you can't see flickering
You'd have to be super human to see flicking at 236Hz, most PC LCDs are 50-60Hz and you don't see the flickering, florescent lights are 50-60Hz and you can only just see it if the bulb is dying
*Detection* said:
No you can't see flickering
You'd have to be super human to see flicking at 236Hz, most PC LCDs are 50-60Hz and you don't see the flickering, florescent lights are 50-60Hz and you can only just see it if the bulb is dying
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Sorry Detection, but your comparisons fail in this case. What LCD screens have is a 60 Hz refresh rate (or higher for e.g. gaming displays). That means, that the screen content is refreshed/output 60 times a second. But the backlight is not pulsed. It is constantly on. You would really notice a 60 Hz on-off-pulsing of the backlight.
Flourescent lights have an afterglow, and are driven by a 50 or 60 Hz sine wave AC. So it doesn't go off and on instantly.
I own a Galaxy S7 myself and I do notice the flickering. Some people are more sensitive in perception than others. I notice it with different strength in different situations. The dimmer the screen brightness is set, the more it is noticable to me. I assume, it's because of pulse width ratio - the dimmer the brightness is set, the shorter is the on, and the longer is the off time. And it is more noticable to me with bright font on dark backgrounds than the other way round. I'd really say, that this is the biggest disadvantige of Samsung's OLED displays. On my former S3 it was also noticable to me, even stronger due to a lower frequency. But I'd say, I can live with it - I really like the vivid colors of these AMOLEDs on the other hand.
It would be interesting to know if the brightness control of OLED displays of other manufacturers is done the same way, or if there are other techniques existing
Edgar_M said:
Sorry Detection, but your comparisons fail in this case. What LCD screens have is a 60 Hz refresh rate (or higher for e.g. gaming displays). That means, that the screen content is refreshed/output 60 times a second. But the backlight is not pulsed. It is constantly on. You would really notice a 60 Hz on-off-pulsing of the backlight.
Flourescent lights have an afterglow, and are driven by a 50 or 60 Hz sine wave AC. So it doesn't go off and on instantly.
I own a Galaxy S7 myself and I do notice the flickering. Some people are more sensitive in perception than others. I notice it with different strength in different situations. The dimmer the screen brightness is set, the more it is noticable to me. I assume, it's because of pulse width ratio - the dimmer the brightness is set, the shorter is the on, and the longer is the off time. And it is more noticable to me with bright font on dark backgrounds than the other way round. I'd really say, that this is the biggest disadvantige of Samsung's OLED displays. On my former S3 it was also noticable to me, even stronger due to a lower frequency. But I'd say, I can live with it - I really like the vivid colors of these AMOLEDs on the other hand.
It would be interesting to know if the brightness control of OLED displays of other manufacturers is done the same way, or if there are other techniques existing
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You're seriously telling me you can see something flashing at 236 times per second? Sorry but no
I'm one of the persons that if the screens have a low refresh rate I get headaches and get tired, however since long time gone with technology this doesn't happen. I don't have any issue with the phone and use it sometimes hours in a row and for a full load of operations. Car navigation, social messaging, reading news and articles and internet searches. No issue at all for me and it's been a great screen. I use however a 3M privacy film, so it lowers the quality of the screen.
I use this phone in my Gear VR where it is a inch from my eyes and I don't notice any flickering. The screen is great!
It is great, no doubt. But, believe it or not guys, some people do recognize the flickering
Maybe an odd question for XDA, but a question I need answered before I pull the trigger on this phone. Earlier this year while buying a new television set, I learned that I am amongst a small minority of people who are sensitive to LED-lit electronic displays that use pulse width modulation to control brightness. Apparently, I can look at a PWM CCFL-backlit (i.e. my 5-year-old computer monitor or my Nexus 5) screen or a DCM LED-backlit screen (my television set) for hours with no issue whatsoever but I can only focus on a PWM LED-lit screen briefly before I start experiencing symptoms of eyestrain and motion sickness. It's like looking at a CRT that flickers because the refresh rate is set too low. Now I know an AMOLED lacks a backlight layer, but it still has to adjust for brightness, so if it uses PWM to do so, then I have to presume it will cause the subtle flicker leading to the same problems that I've experienced with LED-LCD displays. Is there anyone here who could possibly shed some light (no pun intended) on this issue?
LED's are on/off only devices, so in order to have a "dim" LED, PWM is a requirement. The rate at which PWM is done can vary, so it may still be fast enough for you to not notice it. If you are sensitive, your best bet is to stop at a Verizon store and check out a running demo (call around first though, some stores only have "dummy" display models), or ask to look at the display of someone who has one locally. Checking it out on Verizon doesn't mean you are obligated to buy from them.
It does use PWM. I saw in some videos.
LED backlit without PWM exists. See Macbook Pro, iPad, some Surface devices, LG V10/V20. AMOLED without PWM is more rare.
It's kind of a head scratcher. I compared it with my 3T and is pretty noticeable as on the 3t the colors are better. Was it to keep cost down?
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
Possible issues securing sufficient quantities if amoled panels.
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
My last three daily drivers were the Note 7, Oneplus 3 and s7. There's definite advantages to amoled but there's advantages to lcd as well. Personally I have no complaints, Huawei have used a very high quality ips panel, so I'd be surprised if cost was the main motivator.
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Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
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I forgot to mention screen burn in - a problem that lcd panels don't face and which they still can't solve for amoled.
The screen on the Mate 9 is gorgeous, I've caught myself just staring at it a few times. Not once have I felt like it is a downgrade from the s7, and the s7 is a better panel than what the Oneplus has.
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hackdrag0n said:
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
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Tell that to LG. Their phones are LCD yet have terrible battery life. Yet my Pixel XL and Samsung phones have had much better battery life despite using AMOLED... so this is not necessarily true.
hackdrag0n said:
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
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Again, color calibration/saturation has NOTHING to do with screen tech. The manufacturer sets the color calibration/target. The Mate 9 IS OVER SATURATED. Not as much as most AMOLED phones, but it is not calibrated to sRGB by ANY means. AMOLED phones have typically over saturated because AMOLED has had much higher color coverage capability, and it was a strong selling point. I dislike over saturated colors, but love AMOLED when it is set to a reasonable target (sRGB or Adobe RGB). Contrast is extremely important for image quality, ESPECIALLY in dark viewing conditions. Fast pixel response time is hugely important for a smartphone to maintain a "clean" looking display when scrolling. The Mate 9 LCD is one of the worst I've seen. It has bad ghosting and/or overshoot artifacting which makes the problem even worse.
hackdrag0n said:
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
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This is true. Maybe Samsung will bring back RGB for the S8. They used to have RGB AMOLED in older phones at one point, you know?
hackdrag0n said:
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
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Not true. Samsung panels have high brightness modes under sunlight and other bright light sources. I can trigger this mode whenever I want using root and a kernel. My Pixel XL is brighter than my Mate 9.
Governa said:
Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
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It is clear cut. AMOLED is superior. It's why I spent nearly $6,000 for TWO TV's in my house that are AMOLED. The quality is mind blowing on a large screen, and once you realize its benefits there, you will never want an LCD again... even on your smartphone. At least that's the case with me. It's also why Apple is going for AMOLED with the iPhone 8... because they know it's better.
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
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There are a lot of misconceptions about display technology.
As mentioned they each have advantages and disadvantages.
LCD has a very flat power consumption due to the fact that it's essentially white LEDs shining through color filters whereas AMOLED consist of individual pixels that combine to create color meaning that each LED will vary in consumption according to what is displayed meaning white requires all of them to shine at maximum to create white which is why AMOLED uses more power in that situation and no power when displaying pure black. LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
AMOLED is only oversaturated because it is naturally a wide gamut display. When uncalibrated it will look oversaturated because all content is pretty much sRGB which is a limited color space. Many manufacturers including Huawei don't bother calibrating their displays for accuracy.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
LCD has poor latencies which is also why the regular 9 doesn't support Daydream. OLED displays naturally has low latencies which is why all Daydream compatible phones are AMOLED.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
LCD displays have higher peak brightness and is therefore more easy to see in sunlight. On the other hand, AMOLED have individually controlled brightness meaning pure blacks can be attained (turning off pixels completely) whereas LCD have edge lit displays with poor control resulting in light bleeding and above-zero blacks resulting in grey-ish blacks because there will always be some light shining through. So the contrast is much greater and only limited by peak brightness on the AMOLED display.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
PS. Typed this on my phone... Should have switched to laptop. What a pain to do this write-up.
↑ now THAT is a great post. Kudos.
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hackdrag0n said:
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
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Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Trixanity said:
LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
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Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
Nitemare3219 said:
Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
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This is the first time I've been called a unicorn. I like it.
Thanks for the correction on the LG OLED TVs. I was under the impression they used the W-pixel to both produce higher brightness and reduce the added power consumption from going full tilt on each of the other pixels. I did not know they used filters like that actually. I thought they used similar tech to Samsung but apparently not But that also explains why their yields are so different.
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both Pentile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different. I wish LG would get back in the OLED display game for smaller screens including phones, tablets, laptops and monitors. It would be so awesome with some competition.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
If only they could invent a display that could switch between being emissive and reflective with few drawbacks - that would solve a lot of problems.
Edit: forgot to address the Huawei panel. Whether Huawei could get a 6" panel for the phone or not is uncertain. I'm just guessing; I have no sources to back that up but it seems to be the case that they couldn't find a panel that suited their needs. They probably also had a good deal with JDI since they've used their panels for some years and AMOLED was only just about to become the expected standard. We've long seen LCD being used by most manufacturers - it's only in the recent year or two that it has spread to other brands than Samsung. I mean Apple, LG, HTC, Sony and Huawei have all been using LCD either exclusively or primarily. That's about to change in the coming years.
I'm thinking the AMOLED panels they could get weren't up to the standard they were looking for. The LCD panel they used was pretty damn good although poorly calibrated. Although now that I think of it the reason the Pro is is 5.5" might be more to do with the requirement for a curved display which limits their options quite a bit. Also, keep in mind a custom display is expensive so producing a phone on the scale of a Mate 9 would probably limit them to off-the-shelf components to avoid gutting their profit margins. I'm sure they could have gotten any display they wanted if they were willing to pay the price.
With that being said: there are probably many reasons not to go AMOLED for the regular Mate 9 and all we can do is guess what their reasons are.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both PenTile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
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The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Nitemare3219 said:
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
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Just a heads up, I've added an edit to my previous post.
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
I don't think maintaining peak brightness is an issue unless you're standing out in direct sunlight all day with your phone. I mean you wouldn't switch to manual brightness and crank it up when you're inside. Most probably use auto brightness anyway and that means it won't be anywhere near the maximum unless you're outside. I'm sure it might reduce the lifespan of the LEDs or maybe increase the likelihood of a defect.
I was actually quite intrigued by LG's G Flex series (aka banana phone) which had a P-OLED display. It might be a bit gimmicky especially the 'self-healing' back cover but it looked different but it was plagued by poor sales and the second iteration was let down by the Snapdragon 810.
The G6 will have their new 18:9 (2:1 really) 5.7" LCD display. It will have 2880 x 1440 resolution. So not this time.
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
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hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
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I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Trixanity said:
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
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Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Lodix said:
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
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That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Trixanity said:
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
I don't mind a quality 1080 panel. Huawei makes me rethink my love of AMOLED displays.
I personally don't see a major difference unless it's the newest Samsung flagship. Not a major change from my 6p or Nexus 6 but these weren't cream of the crop AMOLED displays.
I truly thought this would be the mate that got the qhd AMOLED especially after the honor note 8 that released not long before this one. Extremely happy with the LCD panel.
Last 2 LCD phones I used was LeEco s1 and lg v10. The s1 had a great LCD panel that look AMOLED. Lg v10 just looked washed out most of the time.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're wrong. In 2015, yes they were ****. I had an EG9600 and it had about 50ms of input lag. I have 2 2016 TV's now, a C6 and a B6. The B6 just got an update and it does 28ms of input lag at 4:2:2, but close to 70ms at 4:4:4. The C6 does 34ms of input lag at either setting (4:2:2, or 4:4:4). The lag is NOT noticeable at all, and part of this is because the pixels respond instantly to new frames (<.1ms) whereas IPS and VA can take MANY milliseconds to update the pixels - some panels take dozens of milliseconds for a full transition for some colors. OLED is the fastest refresh for a panel today. My C6 has hundreds of hours of PC use ONLY, and has ZERO burn in... NONE.
Lodix said:
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is a lot of people mistake burn-in for image retention because they don't come back and check again later after viewing different content on the display for awhile. I will say that burn-in can be an issue for phones though, depending on how you use them/set them up. My friend's S5 has the keyboard ghosted/burned into the display. He must text a LOT or something. Blew my mind when I saw that.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not in Gaming/PC Mode on the most recent models. On the 2017 OLED the input lag is 21ms in virtually all situations.
Trixanity said:
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For pricing, you just have to wait until Black Friday for deals on the current year's models. That's the best time to buy a TV that will last you many years. Picked up the LG 65" C7P for $1900 last Fall. I wouldn't consider Samsung's QLED TV's over LG's RGBW OLED. However, there is the advantage of luminance. QLED have a higher luminance. Also keep in mind that although RGBW is not Pentile and doesn't suffer from inferior sub-resolution, you do lose color volume to an extent when using the higher levels of luminance (You'll be depending on the additional white sub-pixel). I'd say this is a fairly tertiary concern but could be important if you use the OLED in a bright living room. If using a dark room, there's absolutely no contest. Personally, I have the C7P in a living room and still completely satisfied. There's a reason why it's a champ on every review site. Oh and for reference, all the LG 2017 OLED have essentially the same panel irregardless of price.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
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Click to collapse
The Samsung Galaxy Note II (2012) also had a Full RGB AMOLED Display (720P HD). That was the last time for phones. However, Samsung also still does Full RGB AMOLED for the larger 9.7" models in their premium lines of tablets (Galaxy Tab S2, Tab S3). Those have the same 4:3 resolution as the iPad (2048x1536). The 10.5" Galaxy Tab S has a 2560x1600 Full RGB AMOLED Display as well. I certainly hope Samsung turns away from Pentile sometime in the future, but I don't think they'll do so anytime soon for smartphones. However, there is some hope.
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
60
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
normal for amoled screen
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have a defective display get it replaced ,& no this isn't normal with oled screens
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
blackhawk said:
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
saidgta said:
I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is that in a completely dark room?
If you're not using a incandescent light source for room lighting that may cause it.
Otherwise regardless of screen brightness or display frequency it should be not be showing anything except what's being displayed.
At that price it better be spot on.
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
screen lines
Hi. I just got my Note 20 Ultra and I have the same problem. I see streaks in my photos. If I switch between 60 and 120Hz, sometimes the lines disappear, but not always.
saidgta said:
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not good. Was thinking maybe background LED lighting might be "strobing" it.
Probably a firmware issue but could hardware is my guess.
Maybe software... try clearing the system cache on boot menu, a hard reboot and clearing graphic driver data even if it reads zero. If you have PD MDM use that to clear instead of in Settings.
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I know someone that replaced the phone, but new phone has the issue too.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
blackhawk said:
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
blackhawk said:
That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the 10+ the color sliders are weak too.
A 3rd party overlay app works but is a pain.
Overlay apps won't work with Q though I believe.
Rather sloppy of Goggle and Samsung... this is an ongoing issue with Androids; no color calibration
Fortunately the 10+'s aren't too bad but it the color blind coders need to get up to speed...
Androids need color calibration.
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
doggydog2 said:
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not the OLEDs that are the issue as the display on my 10+ is the best display I ever used.
It's the firmware/drivers and perhaps the >60 hz hardware. It's very disconcerting that it's not sorted out yet.
Well that's Samsung. It may be fixed. Samsung just pushed out yet another Buds+ firmware update today. Wow. They keep trying, I'll give them that... the best the Buds+ ever sounded.
So there's hope. The bad news is it will most likely need to be a firmware update if it is fixable.
Flashing the Buds is a lot easier (and less risky) than patching the bloody phone firmware.
Based on issues like this and the abomination that Q and above are, I may simply buy another backup 10+ 512gb phone running on Pie and call it good for the next 3 years.
Both Samsung and Goggle/Android have been practicing drop the ball like drooling kindergarten ftards lately
saidgta said:
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have same issue..! Have you sorted out this issue!?
Today i was measuring s21 brightness in the store and was shocked i was getting 850lux readings (from s10+ sensor) meanwhile 12 pro max was showing 780 lux. I wanted to compare two phones next to eachother but guy says they cannot take the phones away from the table. Though, super lucky, the guy himself owned an s21(this is not a samsung store in case you missed) and lets me compare them side by side. I compare and s21 is noticably dimmer, very close to my s10+. Now im confused, i got brighter readings then why?
So i took his phone to the store s21 and there was a huge brightness difference. We updated both s21's and after letting them cool down (cuz they dim when hot) the results were still same. His s21 was nowhere near store s21's brightness. His s21 gave about 500lux reading meanwhile store one gave 850.
Take the numbers with a grain of salt since the sensor is s10+ and brightness reading changes depending on if you hold the measured device diagonal or straight.
But turns out review sites arent wrong. S21s manual brightness is rated at 400 nits which explains why its so close to my s10+(310) and so far from 12 pro max.(800) Meanwhile store s21 shows 800nits manually.
So if you were to buy it, you only get 400 nits manually. I suppose its a trick to make you believe the screen is super bright but its only in the store.
By enabling video enhancher and opening up youtube, guys s21 also goes up to 800nits, but only in that youtube app and video player (maybe one more thing i forgot too) Keep that in mind if you are shopping for a s21.
Edit: (in case you are curious, store s21 showed 800nits whetever auto brightness was on or off)
Firmware.
blackhawk said:
Firmware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We updated both phones to latest if thats what you mean.
But i saw a "display mode"( i am from turkey so dont know exact translation) in store s21 which said stuff like " dont turn this on/off if you arent autohorized. It does stuff like reset the phone regularly" and some bunch of other stuff. It wasnt written there but i suppose this brightness boost comes from that "display mode" or "exhibition mode"
Maybe another one of tricks in the Samsung bag of marketing tricks that they are notorious for.
Operating at or near full brightness with a OLED display is never a good idea though.
You can kill them fast like this especially in direct sunlight.
It's not just the OLEDs in the display, there are thousands of mosfets in there too and very little heat sinking capacity for all of them. The brighter it is, the more heat the display needs to dissipate.
A lot of that heat is dissipated through the front of display it's self.
blackhawk said:
Maybe another one of tricks in the Samsung bag of marketing tricks that they are notorious for.
Operating at or near full brightness with a OLED display is never a good idea though.
You can kill them fast like this especially in direct sunlight.
It's not just the OLEDs in the display, there are thousands of mosfets in there too and very little heat sinking capacity for all of them. The brighter it is, the more heat the display needs to dissipate.
A lot of that heat is dissipated through the front of display it's self.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea but moderation is key. Not like we will use max all the time, but being able to go max whenever we desire is a good experience. Much better than feeling like your display could do better.(know from my s10+)
I think heat isnt much of a concern either since all displays dim when phone reaches a certain temeperature, automatically.
Besides, subpixels wont be max intensity all the time when watching vids or playing games so its not that bad.
As long as you dont blast max brightness 7/24 it should be fine imo
theblitz707 said:
Yea but moderation is key. Not like we will use max all the time, but being able to go max whenever we desire is a good experience. Much better than feeling like your display could do better.(know from my s10+)
I think heat isnt much of a concern either since all displays dim when phone reaches a certain temeperature, automatically.
Besides, subpixels wont be max intensity all the time when watching vids or playing games so its not that bad.
As long as you dont blast max brightness 7/24 it should be fine imo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
High energy blue OLEDs fail first... there already been people reporting "burn in" with OLED displays.
They have a finite lifespan; the brightest stars burn the shortest.
As for thermal throttling, sometimes it works other times things get cooked.
blackhawk said:
High energy blue OLEDs fail first... there already been people reporting "burn in" with OLED displays.
They have a finite lifespan; the brightest stars burn the shortest.
As for thermal throttling, sometimes it works other times things get cooked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Burn in could be a display lottery i guess. Of course oleds are very susceptible to it but i think it happening in 1-2 years is too fast unless like, someone uses it at max brightness for few hours every day with white navigation showing(very static). I guess ill have to see how my s10+ fares, so far no issues kind of a heavy user here.