Everybody says changing esn is illegal.
1. Does anybody know anybody who got in trouble for changing esn?
2. say i got two devices, if i swap esn's of both of these device. It that illegal ? If yes can anybody point me to the law that states its illegal?
3. I heard some repair centers change esns, are they licensed to do that, do they have any kind of special permit?
thanks
I'm still searching for proof for you at a federal level (I'm 100% sure this is illegal in the USA) but I found something on a state level that shows it.
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=180670013.K
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_1101-1150/ab_1127_bill_19970703_amended_sen.html
http://www.romingerlegal.com/new_jersey/appellate/a4869-96.opn.html
http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl1997/sl.194.htm
So what's that now, Idaho, California, New Jersey and Colorado? I think the point's been proven, it is completely illegal to alter your ESN without the consent of the manufacturer of the device.
i read those, it doesn't look like it is illegal if you paid for phone service, and you swap the esn to another device, as long as you discontinue using the first device. it isn't as if you are adding a second line of service for no money, you're just putting it on a new phone.
ehow has a page describing how to do it, in fact. i just googled esn switching, and there it was, seems fairly simple
Black93300ZX said:
I think the point's been proven, it is completely illegal to alter your ESN without the consent of the manufacturer of the device.
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LOL, only avoiding payment is against the law. some banned people nowadays
Hmm
Sorry to resurrect but was researching this myself recently.
The controlling federal law seems to be: http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/1029.html
HOWever, I think the law is DEFINITELY worded vaguely and/or NOT aimed at the use the OP might have in mind (having two phones around the house instead of one--just like how people like to have have 2 landline extensions in a single dwelling).
My apologies if this kind of conversation is frowned upon/not allowed. A warning by any senior member/mod and I'll be sure to not pursue this any further on XDA.
Thanks!
Panamaniac
It's a great way to trick phone company's into giving you cheaper internet plans if you switch the esn from a dumb phone to a smart phone.
That being said don't do it its not worth the trouble you could get into
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
thenotoriouspie said:
It's a great way to trick phone company's into giving you cheaper internet plans if you switch the esn from a dumb phone to a smart phone.
That being said don't do it its not worth the trouble you could get into
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Not in every case. Like maybe if you want to use the smartphone without paying for data service (because you don't want data service).
See, with GSM carriers, they can see what phone you're using IF it's in their database. And the phone will only be in their database IF and ONLY IF it is branded by them. So if I'm on T-Mobile and I pop my SIM card into an unlocked AT&T phone/totally unbranded straight-from-manufacturer phone, they don't see what phone I'm using. Want proof? Do that and log in to your account online. Normally, the website will tell you what phone you're using. Instead, this time it'll show you a generic icon/question mark. So if you want to use an iPhone on T-Mobile without a data plan, you can do that. If you want to use a Blackberry on AT&T without a data plan? Also not a problem. As long as they don't know you're using a smartphone, a data plan won't automatically be forced onto your account. GSM gives you choice and freedom.
With CDMA carriers, we have to go through great lengths just so that we can use the phone we want, or just so that we can use a phone we already paid for. If I'm on Verizon with a Blackberry Bold and I want to jump on Sprint, why should I have to pay for the same exact phone AGAIN? It's really not hard to reprovision a CDMA phone to work on another carrier. All you need to do is install the right APN and MMS settings and the carrier's PRL. Then just flash the carrier's ROM onto the phone (I'm simplifying it; it varies by phone).
CHANGING, NOT CLONING, ESNs is ok. It's the equivalent of swapping SIM cards. In the US, the only national CDMA carrier that offers less-than-unlimited plans is Verizon. So what if I want to use my Blackberry Bold with a 150MB data plan? Is that really a crime? I can STILL opt for the unlimited, even if I put a dumbphone's ESN on the Blackberry. Why am I forced to have these plan options on my account? Why can we bring our own phones with GSM carriers, but not CDMA carriers? It IS possible for GSM carriers to block phones not sold from their network from getting service. All they would have to do is block the IMEI numbers not from phones they've sold. But they don't do this. Why can't CDMA carriers just activate these phones? MetroPCS does it in some locations, officially (aka MetroFlash). They warn you that only Calls and SMS will work, but that's fixable on your own, AND you're able to use your own phone from any carrier.
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
Product F(RED) said:
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
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Wow. It does not work this way over there in US? You can use whatever CDMA device here, you just tell the ESN to the carrier so that it gets activated on their network. You guys are weird there.
Money hungry politicians and corporations.
however I have yet to see a court case setting precedence. Until that day, I will consider ESN repair and or swapping a completely legitimate practice.
Well ESN swaps are one thing--but what I'd really like is to clone onto an old handset simply so I can have TWO IN THE HOUSE--nothing illicit here, it's just a pain in the ass to have to go find the thing, since I don't own a landline. In that connection, people have multiple receivers on landlines for this very purpose--because cell phones work great as cell phones, but not so great as HOUSE phones....
But given the 10-year prison sentence (though I don't think I'd be prosecuted) methinks I'll steer clear of actually trying to clone...
People tend to make the VIN comparison.
Although you CAN (and I have) apply for a new vin in certain circumstances.
It's like wanting to have multiple honda accords with the same vin.
Even if you don't want to defraud an insurance company, you technically could if you wrecked one.
Now, though I agree with you and thing you SHOULD be able to clone your own esn. The FCC is very clear about cloneing.
What they aren't clear about is swapping without cloning.
The bulk of the argument resides around the words "intent to defraud"
willpower102 said:
Money hungry politicians and corporations.
however I have yet to see a court case setting precedence. Until that day, I will consider ESN repair and or swapping a completely legitimate practice.
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http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/carterfone-40-years.ars
Happy reading.
(If you want the actual decision, then here you are: http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/FCCOps/1968/13F2-420.html)
Old? You bet. Applicable? I'd argue it
Product F(RED) said:
Not in every case. Like maybe if you want to use the smartphone without paying for data service (because you don't want data service).
See, with GSM carriers, they can see what phone you're using IF it's in their database. And the phone will only be in their database IF and ONLY IF it is branded by them. So if I'm on T-Mobile and I pop my SIM card into an unlocked AT&T phone/totally unbranded straight-from-manufacturer phone, they don't see what phone I'm using. Want proof? Do that and log in to your account online. Normally, the website will tell you what phone you're using. Instead, this time it'll show you a generic icon/question mark. So if you want to use an iPhone on T-Mobile without a data plan, you can do that. If you want to use a Blackberry on AT&T without a data plan? Also not a problem. As long as they don't know you're using a smartphone, a data plan won't automatically be forced onto your account. GSM gives you choice and freedom.
With CDMA carriers, we have to go through great lengths just so that we can use the phone we want, or just so that we can use a phone we already paid for. If I'm on Verizon with a Blackberry Bold and I want to jump on Sprint, why should I have to pay for the same exact phone AGAIN? It's really not hard to reprovision a CDMA phone to work on another carrier. All you need to do is install the right APN and MMS settings and the carrier's PRL. Then just flash the carrier's ROM onto the phone (I'm simplifying it; it varies by phone).
CHANGING, NOT CLONING, ESNs is ok. It's the equivalent of swapping SIM cards. In the US, the only national CDMA carrier that offers less-than-unlimited plans is Verizon. So what if I want to use my Blackberry Bold with a 150MB data plan? Is that really a crime? I can STILL opt for the unlimited, even if I put a dumbphone's ESN on the Blackberry. Why am I forced to have these plan options on my account? Why can we bring our own phones with GSM carriers, but not CDMA carriers? It IS possible for GSM carriers to block phones not sold from their network from getting service. All they would have to do is block the IMEI numbers not from phones they've sold. But they don't do this. Why can't CDMA carriers just activate these phones? MetroPCS does it in some locations, officially (aka MetroFlash). They warn you that only Calls and SMS will work, but that's fixable on your own, AND you're able to use your own phone from any carrier.
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
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Maybe with Verizon but try to do that with sprint and see what happens if you get caught.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Haha, bad news I'm guessing!
It's ok, I just scored a free Airave anyway (which is apparently immediately eligible for a $150 discount on an "upgrade" to a phone?!? Lolz).
SoberGuy said:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/carterfone-40-years.ars
Happy reading.
(If you want the actual decision, then here you are: http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/FCCOps/1968/13F2-420.html)
Old? You bet. Applicable? I'd argue it
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Thanks! This is not what I was expecting... In fact this gives even more credence to the practice.
If I had enough money, I would try to indite myself just to fight it. But I don't have the sort of money to fight that legal battle.
willpower102 said:
Thanks! This is not what I was expecting... In fact this gives even more credence to the practice.
If I had enough money, I would try to indite myself just to fight it. But I don't have the sort of money to fight that legal battle.
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I think from that perspective it's a losing battle. Saying "Judge, the big TelCo is doing something illegal, so I had to do something the FCC deems illegal" is not exactly the best idea. Having that same TelCo refuse you service with a different phone, being forced to buy one of theirs, and then suing them to recover the costs....different story all together.
I'm really, really surprised that this hasn't been challenged at all. I came across that Carterfone decision several years ago (most likely by chance) and immediately thought of the CDMA carriers here. But, I rock GSM, so it doesn't matter too much to me
T-Mobile offers phones without data plans
I recently purchased a Samsung Vibrant on craigslist walked into a T-Mobile store bought a sim card, signed up for a month to month plan for $29.00 and have a smart phone with out paying for data or texting. I wish the other carriers were decent enough to allow this. What scares me most about the T-mobile and Att Merger talk is this consumer friendly company may be shut down.
It's interesting because the federal statutes (i.e., passed by Congress) are vague enough for wiggle room, but the FCC regulations don't seem to be. Following the Chevron decision, courts would be very likely to give the FCC reading of the federal statute deference---i.e., you'd likely lose the case and spend 10 years in jail (IF prosecution ever happened, which for the private in-home purposes of cloning I've been discussing is IMHO a big IF).
panamaniac said:
It's interesting because the federal statutes (i.e., passed by Congress) are vague enough for wiggle room, but the FCC regulations don't seem to be. Following the Chevron decision, courts would be very likely to give the FCC reading of the federal statute deference---i.e., you'd likely lose the case and spend 10 years in jail (IF prosecution ever happened, which for the private in-home purposes of cloning I've been discussing is IMHO a big IF).
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Chevron implements a two-step analysis. Neither, in this scenario, would allow for deference to the FCC on the SOLE issue of a CDMA carrier refusing to activate a CDMA device not purchased from said carrier. Would deference be given to changing or cloning ESNs? Quite possibly, but if the case even remotely touched on the aforementioned "ban", the court would address that matter in favor of the consumer.
For the last time, we're talking about
SWAPPING
I know cloning and changing ESN or IMEI numbers on stolen phones is ilegal, but what if I buy a sprint phone and a verizon phone, then I change the ESNs between the two and keep using the verizon phone on sprint and sell the sprint phone as a "verison" phone, would changing the esn that way be legal? if so could you pm me with a way to do so.
i think it's not very legal...
annoyingly enough, its probably illegal. Which is unfortunate for me, because i'd love to allow my gf to activate my old alltel blackberry phone on verizon (merger put me with att)
I see the words think and probably which gives me hope, where could I look for these laws? do they change from state to state?
jorge89 said:
I know cloning and changing ESN or IMEI numbers on stolen phones is ilegal, but what if I buy a sprint phone and a verizon phone, then I change the ESNs between the two and keep using the verizon phone on sprint and sell the sprint phone as a "verison" phone, would changing the esn that way be legal? if so could you pm me with a way to do so.
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A few threads from other websites for you to read.
http://cellphone-gurus.com
http://forum.ppcgeeks.com
In may 2002 the FCC retraced its statement on ESN cloning or cellular fraud (section 22.919) because public law number 105-172, the communications act also had section 301 removed because of this law. Both removed sections were considered no longer needed and redundant because of this public law.
According to this law it is a federal crime to "knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization." This is a broad enough description to pertain to any service a telecommunication companies offers, as well as any hardware or software you used to achieve this is considered illegal and in breach of this law. An example of other services are, internet services like an air card and voice mail, but not limited to these examples.
Without authorization, means any device the carrier did not directly and knowingly assign to your account. Even if you have a valid account and are a paying customer, cloning a device to that account is unauthorized, because the device being authenticated and authorized on the network is the donor device not the device you cloned. An example of this but not limited to this example is cloning a Motorola flip phone to a Samsung Epic smart phone, The Samsung epic would authenticate as a Motorola flip phone, not a Samsung Epic Smart phone. The carrier did not explicitly authorize this smart phone device, and it is accessing the network in an unauthorized and illegal manner.
If a user was unlucky enough to be found breaching this law and proven guilty of the offense, the punishments are; “A first offense is now punishable by 15 years in prison, and a second or subsequent offense carries a possible 20 year sentence. Besides additional fines and penalties, the Act also authorizes the government to seize any and all personal property used or intended to be used in the crime. “
http://www.howardforums.com
anything of this nature is prohibited by law. any alteration of a cell phones ESN is illegal.. pretty much in any manner you do it.
But in all honesty, changing the ESN is illegal no matter how you try to justify it.
ESN is like fingerpirnts on the phone. You can't change it unless you're running from the laws.
Simple answer: It is illegal for you as a customer/purchaser/consumer to clone/change/swap/etc ESNs/IMEIs.
I'm not trying to run away from any laws or break them, all I really want is to be able to use Virgin mobile with a decent Android phone the a Nexus S or maybe wait for the Nexus 3 to come out to Sprint, but I guess that won't be possible now
jorge89 said:
I'm not trying to run away from any laws or break them, all I really want is to be able to use Virgin mobile with a decent Android phone the a Nexus S or maybe wait for the Nexus 3 to come out to Sprint, but I guess that won't be possible now
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Call Virgin Mobile and ask them to add the ESN to their database.
http://www.gsmarena.com/whats_the_deal_with_carrier_iq_and_what_it_means_to_you-news-3460.php
Does the O3D come pre-installed with the Carrier I.Q. "spyware" in any of the standard ROM's?
Don't think so. At least in the Euro Open ones there's no trace of it I could find.
Cheers fella.
I couldn't find it in my firewall listing either.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I'm T-Mobile, using the Euro Open V21a. When T-Mobile (UK) release the V21a I'll flash it and check if it is in there, then re-flash back to Euro Open.
Carrier IQ Updates Statement: Operators Use Carrier IQ Software Only to Diagnose Operational Problems on Networks and Mobile Devices.
Mountain View, CA – December 1, 2011 – To clarify misinformation on the functionality of Carrier IQ software, the company is updating its statement from November 23rd 2011 as follows:
We measure and summarize performance of the device to assist Operators in delivering better service.
While a few individuals have identified that there is a great deal of information available to the Carrier IQ software inside the handset, our software does not record, store or transmit the contents of SMS messages, email, photographs, audio or video. For example, we understand whether an SMS was sent accurately, but do not record or transmit the content of the SMS. We know which applications are draining your battery, but do not capture the screen.
“Having examined the Carrier IQ implementation it is my opinion that allegations of keystroke collection or other surveillance of mobile device user’s content are erroneous,” asserts Rebecca Bace of Infidel Inc. a respected security expert.
Privacy is protected. Consumers have a trusted relationship with Operators and expect their personal information and privacy to be respected. As a condition of its contracts with Operators, CIQ operates exclusively within that framework and under the laws of the applicable jurisdiction. The data we gather is transmitted over an encrypted channel and secured within our customers’ networks or in our audited and customer-approved facilities.
Carrier IQ is aware of various commentators alleging Carrier IQ has violated wiretap laws and we vigorously disagree with these assertions.
Our software makes your phone better by delivering intelligence on the performance of mobile devices and networks to help the Operators provide optimal service efficiency. We are deployed by leading Operators to monitor and analyze the performance of their services and mobile devices to ensure the system (network and handsets) works to optimal efficiency. Operators want to provide better service to their customers, and information from the device and about the network is critical for them to do this. While in-network tools deliver information such as the location of calls and call quality, they do not provide information on the most important aspect of the service – the mobile device itself.
Carrier IQ acts as an agent for the Operators. Each implementation is different and the diagnostic information actually gathered is determined by our customers – the mobile Operators. Carrier IQ does not gather any other data from devices.
CIQ is the consumer advocate to the mobile operator, explaining what works and what does not work. Three of the main complaints we hear from mobile device users are (1) dropped calls, (2) poor customer service, and (3) having to constantly recharge the device. Our software allows Operators to figure out why problems are occurring, why calls are dropped, and how to extend the life of the battery. When a user calls to complain about a problem, our software helps Operators’ customer service more quickly identify the specific issue with the phone.
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Darkforce101 said:
Carrier IQ Updates Statement: Operators Use Carrier IQ Software Only to Diagnose Operational Problems on Networks and Mobile Devices.
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Yeah, sure. I have no doubt about it. That's why they intercept all keystrokes, sms, URL including https ones...
Yep, only to diagnose op. problems. And of course they discount the bandwidth used for their diagnoses from your account.
According to the various Android news sites Carrier IQ is only on US phones, including Apples Iphone, but not on UK or European devices.
Dave
And so it begins:
"We all knew it was going to happen - the first lawsuits are being filed against Carrier IQ and its data-stealing nature. Not only is CIQ getting hit with a suit, but HTC and Samsung are also being thrown into the ring since many of their phones support the software.
The suit claims that Carrier IQ is in violation of the Federal Wiretap Act, which makes intercepting "oral, wire, or electronic communications" illegal. The punishment isn't a light one, either - $100 per day for every incident; that could potentially cost Sammy and HTC millions of dollars.
Information is just now becoming available about the suit, but we'll make sure to keep you posted as more details become available.
This is probably the first of many suits to come; after all, not a single carrier is involved... yet. "
http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/1...rier-iq-could-potentially-cost-them-millions/
http://gizmodo.com/t-mobile-will-stop-customers-abusing-unlimited-data-1727652180
Will this mean that T-Mobile will no longer be truly unlimited? The article states that T-Mobile has software to track whether excessive data users are taking advantage of the system by modifying their devices to hide tether. So stop me if I'm wrong but being able to tell what data you view, stream, or use would be invasion of privacy. And I believe it's illegal for the carriers to monitor what data content is. So by throttling a user for so called cheating the system would mean submitting evidence that they ,the carrier, has invaded the subscribers privacy. And didn't AT&T get fined $100 by the FCC recently for throttling unlimited users due to breach of contract? Check out this article, its a good read......
http://gizmodo.com/t-mobile-will-stop-customers-abusing-unlimited-data-1727652180
That only applies to the USA. European Privacy laws dictate that providers are not allowed to see the details of data usage. Deutsche Telekom and all T-Mobile branches in Europe can not, and will not block or track users based on data usage. If they do they face an instant seize and desist from the EU high court on all assets, the charges being direct violation of EU privacy laws.
A few providers tried to ban tethering for a while a couple of years ago, but thanks to Neelie Kroes they got a hefty fine and we got a law that prevents them from limiting specific services.
Besides, do we even have unlimited 4G data plans in Europe? Low-speed 3G maybe, but not 4G.
This is mild compared to the actual level of spying that US providers do. Did you know they can even see what apps their users have installed and, if they're internet-using apps, how many times they use them? Lots of cases where users had warranty service refused because an app that required root access was running on their phones. They've even got the right to remotely remove apps from a user's phone without informing the user. It's terrifying to think that people actually tolerate such a thing...