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I remember this option was built in on my old iphone 3gs - after, say, five wrong password (pin) attempts in the lock screen, the phone would wipe all its data.
Afaik this feature is nowhere within Android, is it? I don't want the phone to only be locked out, I want it kinda to "self distruct" all the data, includng a complete wipe of the sd card.
My last phone got stolen and I had EVERYTHING on it. If this happens ever again, I want my phone to be the only thing stolen, not the data on it too.
Can this be done?
Cerberus will let you remote wipe all the data.
Not much use when someone finds the phone and removes my sim. Like title says, "automatically" is the magic word here. Also, when you're abroad, you don't always have internet access to perform a remote wipe
As for most apps
Android market is the plce to look
https://market.android.com/details?...EsImNvbS52ZXNwZXJhTm92dXMuYXBwLkF1dG93aXBlIl0.
Exactly what I was looking for, thanks for this!
The app seems to have some problems though, according to reviews. Will try out!
Don't worry, it's a security question alright.
I live in Eastern Europe, which is on the far side of the Samsung support network and I have samsung galaxy s3 phone (GT-9300 i guess). My repair options look a little bit bleak. I must either ship it back to France, from where it is bought, or I must seek help of non-licensed technicians. Thank God, there are quite a lot around here and for problems like this they do wonders.
I am worried though that the technicians may try to meddle with the software of my phone and do something nasty with it while the phone is in their possession. I use the phone quite a lot to access various servers trough ssh and the servers contain semi-sensitive information about customers, phones, the equivalents of social security numbers in my country and etc. Of course I will delete my present information, but how about the future. If someone has hacked versions of the firmware, it will be a child game to get the passwords for my servers.
So I need to secure the software of my phone somehow and I'm not sure of my options, so I'm asking for advice which is better. I have experience with Linux, but about Android I'm a quite noob. I had my Amazon FireHD Tablet rooted and installed with CyanogenMOD, so I know a little bit about ROM images. The phone itself is unrooted with original software and is not locked to a carrier.
Should I:
1. Try to back up my entire ROM image?
There are various questions here. It looks that I cannot download standalone original ROM image directly from Samsung so I must back up mine. But in the bootloader (which opens with volume up/down + home + power) it seems that there are no options for backing up rom image, only for restoring trough ADB of SD card. Should I try to root, install alternative bootloader and then back up everything.
There is one very important sub-question here: Will the phone signal me somehow If someone replaces the original bootloader with say, non-signed one? What If someone changes the bootloader as well as the system image?
2. Should I try to ecrypt my phone.
I cannot get easily information about what exactly is encrypted. Pretty sure that the bootloader itself cannot be encrypted anyway. How about the system image. Is it encrypted ?
I'll be thanful for any help about these two ideas as well as any others?
If you are paying to have the repair done by an entity other than Samsung then you have a great option available. Just out of curiousity, what version of android are you running? If I were in your shoes, I would root the phone and install a custom recovery (either TWRP or Philz). This will allow you to take a complete nandroid backup of the phone to the external SD Card. Confirm the nandroid backup has been saved to the SD Card then remove the card from the phone and store it somewhere safe. Then perform a factory reset to completely wipe the phone and have your phone sent out to be fixed. When you get your phone back, insert the SD Card and restore from the backup. It will be just as you left it and the possibility that anyone has been able to access or tamper with your phone is almost nil... Apart from possibly large national security agencies whom are known for having catalogs of common electronic items that have been compromised in various ways.
I can't speak for your exact phone, but I am quite familiar with encryption as well as the US-model Galaxy S3's. Unfortunately Samsung is known for running their own encryption schemes with are different and most often weaker than the stock. Custom ROMs with generally have an implementation based on AOSP sources. A 4 digit PIN or common passphrase can be easily broken with either, but a sturdy encryption passphrase will almost certainly provide sufficient protection.
Without knowing the specifics of your phone and whatever TouchWiz it's running, I can say this much. If you enable encryption on your phone, it will encrypt /data (application data) at a very minimum. This will almost definitely not include /system. It will probably not include the external SD card or any of the actual applications (the .apk files). The encryption would keep your data secure at rest, but it wouldn't prevent a motivated attacker from installing a hidden malicious application in the system.
You are correct in that the bootloader cannot be encrypted.
84598432951
fadedout said:
If you are paying to have the repair done by an entity other than Samsung then you have a great option available. Just out of curiousity, what version of android are you running? If I were in your shoes, I would root the phone and install a custom recovery (either TWRP or Philz). This will allow you to take a complete nandroid backup of the phone to the external SD Card. Confirm the nandroid backup has been saved to the SD Card then remove the card from the phone and store it somewhere safe. Then perform a factory reset to completely wipe the phone and have your phone sent out to be fixed. When you get your phone back, insert the SD Card and restore from the backup. It will be just as you left it and the possibility that anyone has been able to access or tamper with your phone is almost nil... Apart from possibly large national security agencies whom are known for having catalogs of common electronic items that have been compromised in various ways.
I can't speak for your exact phone, but I am quite familiar with encryption as well as the US-model Galaxy S3's. Unfortunately Samsung is known for running their own encryption schemes with are different and most often weaker than the stock. Custom ROMs with generally have an implementation based on AOSP sources. A 4 digit PIN or common passphrase can be easily broken with either, but a sturdy encryption passphrase will almost certainly provide sufficient protection.
Without knowing the specifics of your phone and whatever TouchWiz it's running, I can say this much. If you enable encryption on your phone, it will encrypt /data (application data) at a very minimum. This will almost definitely not include /system. It will probably not include the external SD card or any of the actual applications (the .apk files). The encryption would keep your data secure at rest, but it wouldn't prevent a motivated attacker from installing a hidden malicious application in the system.
You are correct in that the bootloader cannot be encrypted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank You for the informative answer!
I had to do this once and what I did was:
- Root phone (which I always wanted to do)
- Perform a full backup to SD card
- Remove SD card and perform a factory reset of the phone
Then off to repairs.
Once back, I did again a factory reset (just in case) and then restore the lot
Seems a lot to do, but I have some sensitive data on it and didn't want to risk it too much. Besides during the restore I took the opportunity to upgrade to 4.3 (at the time)
glass
why dnt you buy a chinese glass and change it yourself its so easy and cheap, around 10 euros or so? i did the same for my old phone
I read somewhere that Android keeps your personal data even after hard resetting the phone as it only delete the path of files nd original files are remain untouched. I just want to know if it is true or not..
Sent from my A110Q using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Isn't that true for just about every storage device? I think the issue is when you erase the storage media, traces of the files can be recovered from the storage. This is true for your phone and also your personal computer. If you formatted your hard drive, someone could still use a data recovery to recover your data. Short of totally destroying your physical media, there may be no 100% way of erasing all data. The realistic goal would be erasing the data to the point where an average person can't recover it.
Based on what I read from the article, the issue is that if you erase your phone, the data can still be recovered from the phone using off-the shelve tool. Apple is a bit better since later generation of iphone handles encryption better. If you want to avoid this situation, look into an android phone with encryption features.
Paul
Check the settings, you might have the option to encrypt your data in there. Takes around an hour if your device is fairly new.
Glompish said:
Check the settings, you might have the option to encrypt your data in there. Takes around an hour if your device is fairly new.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good way of making sure your 'deleted' files, if they're still there, are inacessable.
But can make backup and recovery a real *****....
paul.siu said:
Isn't that true for just about every storage device? I think the issue is when you erase the storage media, traces of the files can be recovered from the storage. This is true for your phone and also your personal computer. If you formatted your hard drive, someone could still use a data recovery to recover your data. Short of totally destroying your physical media, there may be no 100% way of erasing all data. The realistic goal would be erasing the data to the point where an average person can't recover it.
Based on what I read from the article, the issue is that if you erase your phone, the data can still be recovered from the phone using off-the shelve tool. Apple is a bit better since later generation of iphone handles encryption better. If you want to avoid this situation, look into an android phone with encryption features.
Paul
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes some of the data can be recovered but that is only as long as it has not been over written. The easiest thing to do is to wipe the device and use a Stock rom flash file to over write the system a few times formatting all partitions.
After hard-reset, data will be erased from device.
But, if your data was synchronized with Google cloud services, they will remain alive after Android hard-reset.
All user data have been lost after hard reset
I imagine that after a factory reset, all information stored on the device previously will be erased, however, i believe that information synced with email accounts or applications will be saved
A factory reset is theoretically the best way to clear data and should work for most phones, see Settings > Backup & reset > Factory data reset. However, a company called Avast Software did a study recently and found they were able to recover photos from 20 handsets bought on Ebay. They say the owners did a factory reset but I'm a bit skeptical that maybe they claimed to but didn't.
Marc
i think the same thingh.
google keeps all of our information in its database... we are not its user but just product...
As zelendel said, data can be recovered after a factory reset. Have a look at this thread 'Deleting data' part.
Can the data in an iphone can be erased like android mobile by going to recovery mode by pressing 2/3 buttons of mobiles . If not then what happens ?
What? If you want to know about resetting an iPhone, ask in an iPhone forum?
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I don't want to reset an iPhone, I''m just asking a security case. Let's imagine our android being stolen, then the thief can certainly press the power and volume key and can easily wipe data and factory reset the mobile phone by just simply going to recovery. So it'll be impossible for us to find the phone.
But I'm asking in case of an iPhone is this same case possible? Can a thief just simply wipe the data and reset the mobile by pressing some keys and without unlocking the mobile ?
Gotcha. I haven't used an iPhone in years, so don't know.
I still think it's weird to ask an iPhone reset question in an Android forum though. You would probably get your answer in a minute if you just ask in an apple forum...
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Isn't the whole point of factory reset protection on android that it renders the device useless to someone who does this? Sure, it won't stop them actually resetting it, so you won't be able to track it afterwards, but the idea is that the thieves will learn that it's a waste of time.
Apple have something to prevent you just wiping a phone and making it yours, but I can't remember the details (i.e. whether it prevents the reset or, like the Google version, prevents you from using it afterwards).
Sent from my Pixel 2 using XDA-Developers Legacy app
I concur with @Large Hadron
On an iPhone, someone could enter the password incorrectly several times and the device would be wiped. It would not be usable, but it would be wiped. They could also connect the iPhone to a computer / mac with itunes and flash a factory image from there. Again, the device would be useless to them, but you wouldn't be able to recover your device from the thief.
Comparing an iPhone to a Pixel 1 or 2, both device could easily have the data wiped from the device. To that effect, the data is secure on both devices, which is by far the most important part. Recovering your lost / stolen device is an entirely different conversation. The benefit of an iPhone when lost / stolen is the device is a brick without the previous user's icloud email and password. Once it boots up, it asks for this before you can setup the phone. There is no way around this (without Apple's intervention). On a Pixel 1 or 2, the device could be wiped, but I believe the thief could then use the phone as their own. There is nothing that would "brick" the phone after a full data wipe.
If you are worried about your data, either phone is good (don't unlock bootloader and don't oem unlock). If you are worried about the hardware, you are responsible for that.
dbrohrer said:
I concur with @Large Hadron
On an iPhone, someone could enter the password incorrectly several times and the device would be wiped. It would not be usable, but it would be wiped. They could also connect the iPhone to a computer / mac with itunes and flash a factory image from there. Again, the device would be useless to them, but you wouldn't be able to recover your device from the thief.
Comparing an iPhone to a Pixel 1 or 2, both device could easily have the data wiped from the device. To that effect, the data is secure on both devices, which is by far the most important part. Recovering your lost / stolen device is an entirely different conversation. The benefit of an iPhone when lost / stolen is the device is a brick without the previous user's icloud email and password. Once it boots up, it asks for this before you can setup the phone. There is no way around this (without Apple's intervention). On a Pixel 1 or 2, the device could be wiped, but I believe the thief could then use the phone as their own. There is nothing that would "brick" the phone after a full data wipe.
If you are worried about your data, either phone is good (don't unlock bootloader and don't oem unlock). If you are worried about the hardware, you are responsible for that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An Android phone works exactly the same way. If you wipe it from recovery, FRP (factory reset protection) kicks in, Once that happens, you are required to log on to the last account that the phone was used on (just like Apple). If you don't know the previous account and or password, there's no way you can use the phone.
You can factory reset from settings without triggering FRP though. Doing so removes all accounts from the phone and anybody can then use it. It's assumed since you are in settings, you've already logged on when you last booted the phone. A thief wouldn't be able to get into settings to reset it as he or she wouldn't know the password to unlock the phone.
robocuff said:
An Android phone works exactly the same way. If you wipe it from recovery, FRP (factory reset protection) kicks in, Once that happens, you are required to log on to the last account that the phone was used on (just like Apple). If you don't know the previous account and or password, there's no way you can use the phone.
You can factory reset from settings without triggering FRP though. Doing so removes all accounts from the phone and anybody can then use it. It's assumed since you are in settings, you've already logged on when you last booted the phone. A thief wouldn't be able to get into settings to reset it as he or she wouldn't know the password to unlock the phone.
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Click to collapse
Cool. I didn't know that. Thanks for that info
dbrohrer said:
Cool. I didn't know that. Thanks for that info
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And if you really want to perfectly protect all your encrypted files, never open the bootloader. Because there's no way to flash something in the phone if the bootloader is closed. And there's no way to Open the bootloader without wiping all your personal data in the process.
Now if you decide to open the bootloader, files are still encrypted, so it's not a big deal.
Regarding the annulment of an Android device, when it is stealed: That happens with any modern Android phone. Basically, Google bans the phone from their cloud servers. A phone without google account is like an iPhone without Apple/iCloud accounts, almost useless.
P.S.: an open bootloader in Android is like a Jailbreak in iOS, but totally OFFICIAL and supported by Google/Android. You don't lose any functionality like with Jailbreak (if that thing still exist today...).
From my point of view, Google should ask PIN before accessing Fastboot mode and Recovery mode. but this is just to prevent a bad joke from a friend or something like that. (Not when your phone is lost forever, you just want to ban that device from Google servers so can't be used again).
robocuff said:
An Android phone works exactly the same way. If you wipe it from recovery, FRP (factory reset protection) kicks in, Once that happens, you are required to log on to the last account that the phone was used on (just like Apple). If you don't know the previous account and or password, there's no way you can use the phone.
You can factory reset from settings without triggering FRP though. Doing so removes all accounts from the phone and anybody can then use it. It's assumed since you are in settings, you've already logged on when you last booted the phone. A thief wouldn't be able to get into settings to reset it as he or she wouldn't know the password to unlock the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you sure about that? I believe that factory reset still triggers FRP thus the black market trade in bypassing that check on lost and stolen devices.
Hi
I factory reset my Samsung A300 few days back but I need my photos recovered. Nothing was backed up. I have tried dumpster app no luck and I have downloaded a recovery software on my laptop to connect phone to but it says it needs rooting? I have tried downloading kingoroot apk on phone but nothing seems to happen . Any help please to get back my photos
Almost every 14 days this question is asked here.
Search this forum for given answers.
cymro24 said:
Hi
I factory reset my Samsung A300 few days back but I need my photos recovered. Nothing was backed up. I have tried dumpster app no luck and I have downloaded a recovery software on my laptop to connect phone to but it says it needs rooting? I have tried downloading kingoroot apk on phone but nothing seems to happen . Any help please to get back my photos
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if u did a factory reset than all of your photos are gone with no way on recovering them however if u backup the photos using google photos Facebook or if u transfer them to your computer before doing a factory reset the photos still should be their
Well, if you want to use the recovery software, root is necessary. There is no other way.
bobii said:
Well, if you want to use the recovery software, root is necessary. There is no other way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing will get that data back and even if you could it's juxtaposed in a million pieces.
A data recovery $ervice might be able to recover some of it if its not already overwritten.
blackhawk said:
Nothing will get that data back and even if you could it's juxtaposed in a million pieces.
A data recovery $ervice might be able to recover some of it if its not already overwritten.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, factory reset in recovery is a formatting process, not a deletion process. "Deleted" data can be retrieved but "formatted" data can not be retrieved, bits of the formatted data can be retrieved but none of the files will be complete, they will all be corrupted and unreadable.
bobii said:
Well, if you want to use the recovery software, root is necessary. There is no other way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Data recovery software and root won't do any good in this situation. Their data has been "formatted", not "deleted"
So what your saying then the opposite of lots of posts out there on Google is I can't get this data back after reset ?
Droidriven said:
No, factory reset in recovery is a formatting process, not a deletion process. "Deleted" data can be retrieved but "formatted" data can not be retrieved, bits of the formatted data can be retrieved but none of the files will be complete, they will all be corrupted and unreadable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point exactly. That remaining data isn't easily accessible for internal memory and even then of little use.
The only way to prevent critical data lose is to redundantly back it up. Some of my data has 5 backup copies, all on separate hdds in different locations. Cloud backup isn't enough; you need hard copies and all hdds need to be recopied every 5 years minimum. They should preferably be enterprise class hdds. Do Not password protect them.
DO NOT CLONE data drives, copy them always.
If you lose the null spacing on the data it can damage some files.
cymro24 said:
Hi
I factory reset my Samsung A300 few days back but I need my photos recovered. Nothing was backed up. I have tried dumpster app no luck and I have downloaded a recovery software on my laptop to connect phone to but it says it needs rooting? I have tried downloading kingoroot apk on phone but nothing seems to happen . Any help please to get back my photos
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, there's nothing left to do. You can try to root the phone and try to recover it, if you value these photos so much, but I can't guarantee you the data is not already rewritten.
cymro24 said:
So what your saying then the opposite of lots of posts out there on Google is I can't get this data back after reset ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A Factory Reset reformats phone's internal storage memory, designating the old data on it as logically deleted. “Logically” is the key word here. It means that the pieces of data are not permanently erased ( i.e. erased to 0 ), means writing over them has been made possible. In Windows OS it's called Quick Format.
However, it's proven that user files are easy to recover after a Factory Reset as long as they didn't get overwritten, even with off-the-shelf forensics apps.
jwoegerbauer said:
A Factory Reset reformats phone's internal storage memory, designating the old data on it as logically deleted. “Logically” is the key word here. It means that the pieces of data are not permanently erased ( i.e. overwritten with zero bytes or similar ), means writing over them has been made possible.
However, it's proven that user files are easy to recover after a Factory Reset as long as they didn't get overwritten, even with off-the-shelf forensics apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're not rooted can you access them with software?
No guarentee the critical files weren't overwritten and I do mean files because the folder structure is already destroyed.
Even if you were able to, a jigsaw puzzle of disjionted files not worth the time it would take to reconstruct. Jpeg's missing their exif data alone quickly become a headache best forgotten if not that important.
One corrupted flash card for about a hundred RAW images on it taught me some things are better left dead
Droidriven said:
Data recovery software and root won't do any good in this situation. Their data has been "formatted", not "deleted"
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Click to collapse
It's not zero filled but I agree even if recovered it be a nightmare that keeps on giving. The jpeg images may be intact less their exif files; you'd need to reconstruct all other details from memory about the images
How would I do the rooting to give it try ?
cymro24 said:
So what your saying then the opposite of lots of posts out there on Google is I can't get this data back after reset ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, data recovery is definitely possible in certain cases, but not in the case of the data being formatted, this is a completely different type of wipe at a deeper, more thorough level than in the case of the data being simply deleted.
Deleted data actually still exists in its full form after being deleted, it is merely "tagged" or "marked" so that the system ignores the data, or more specifically, it ignores the physical storage space where that data is stored until such a time that the system needs that space to write "new" data to be stored. That data can be retrieved by removing the "tag" or "mark" so that the data can read, but only if the physical storage space where that data was stored has not been overwritten by new data.
Factory reset, on the other hand, is an actual physical wipe of the entire physical storage space/partition where said data is stored. This physical wipe, in effect, digitally "shreds" or maybe another analogy would be that it scrambles the data like a blender so that the data is disjointed and out of order so that it is torn apart and no longer readable because the ties that united the data into its cohesive, useable file associations have been torn apart.
It "might", and I strongly stress the word "might", be possible to retrieve the data but it would be a gargantuan task to completely decipher the recovered data in a manner that would allow you to stitch the random bits of data back into their original files. A difficult and virtually impossible task even for the best of the best digital and cryptographic forensic investigators.
Droidriven said:
No, data recovery is definitely possible in certain cases, but not in the case of the data being formatted, this is a completely different type of wipe at a deeper, more thorough level than in the case of the data being simply deleted.
Deleted data actually still exists in its full form after being deleted, it is merely "tagged" or "marked" so that the system ignores the data, or more specifically, it ignores the physical storage space where that data is stored until such a time that the system needs that space to write "new" data to be stored. That data can be retrieved by removing the "tag" or "mark" so that the data can read, but only if the physical storage space where that data was stored has not been overwritten by new data.
Factory reset, on the other hand, is an actual physical wipe of the entire physical storage space/partition where said data is stored. This physical wipe, in effect, digitally "shreds" the data so that it is torn apart and no longer readable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So a factory reset toggles all the logic gates back to zero?
I didn't think it have enough time to do that even with flash memory.
blackhawk said:
So a factory reset toggles all the logic gates back to zero?
I didn't think it have enough time to do that even with flash memory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not certain on that, I'm not versed at that deep of a level in exactly what is going on at the bit by bit level during the format process. I would assume it would not be able to wipe the physical space to the point of being "virgin" space the way it was before any kind of data was ever written to that physical space. "Something" more than likely remains unless you get into deeper levels of formatting or "nuking" the storage space with multiple formatting passes layer by layer. Even then, some kind of data would remain but nothing could ever be pieced back together in any kind of manner. Similar to trying to piece a paper book back together after each page, word and letter have been physically cut apart from each other, you'd only have a vast collection of individual letters with nothing to guide you to tell which letters went with which letters to even form the words they formerly spelled on the page, to piece a paragraph or even a page together would be infinitely more impossible than piecing just a single word back together.
Droidriven said:
I'm not certain on that, I'm not versed at that deep of a level in exactly what is going on at the bit by bit level during the format process. I would assume it would not be able to wipe the physical space to the point of being "virgin" space the way it was before any kind of data was ever written to that physical space. "Something" more than likely remains unless you get into deeper levels of formatting or "nuking" the storage space with multiple formatting passes layer by layer. Even then, some kind of data would remain but nothing could ever be pieced back together in any kind of manner. Similar to trying to piece a paper book back together after each page, word and letter have been physically cut apart from each other, you'd only have a vast collection of individual letters with nothing to guide you to tell which letters went with which letters to even form the words they formerly spelled on the page, to piece a paragraph or even a page together would be infinitely more impossible than piecing just a single word back together.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure either my guess is it destroys the indexing system. Files but not folders may still exist intact. Like a quick format for a hdd.
I know when I do a low level format on a flash card it takes some time. A .5tb flash drive takes much longer to low level format than a factory reset takes.
All this reminds me of the Fred Gwynn line in Pet Cemetery: "Some things are better left dead."
Many times data recovery turns into a horror tale
blackhawk said:
I'm not sure either my guess is it destroys the indexing system. Files but not folders may still exist intact. Like a quick format for a hdd.
I know when I do a low level format on a flash card it takes some time. A .5tb flash drive takes much longer to low level format than a factory reset takes.
All this reminds me of the Fred Gwynn line in Pet Cemetery: "Some things are better left dead."
Many times data recovery turns into a horror tale
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you were to use something like DBAN(Derek's boot and nuke) to run its highest level of secure wipe, it would take many hours to wipe a 5TB drive, possibly even days. There is another higher level of secure wipe that can be achieved by using a certain paid software(I don't remember the name off the top of my head), it could take up to a week or more.
Droidriven said:
If you were to use something like DBAN(Derek's boot and nuke) to run its highest level of secure wipe, it would take many hours to wipe a 5TB drive, possibly even days. There is another higher level of secure wipe that can be achieved by using a certain paid software(I don't remember the name off the top of my head), it could take up to a week or more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The most I'll do is a zero fill and yeah that takes a while for hdds. On flash drives I think a low level format wipes everything, it can recover an unreadable drive. It's not a secure wipe though.
For hdds the 5# sledge hammer erase can do a secure mil spec zero out in less then 30 seconds