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i just got htc one xl (international versionfor at&t) and everything is just superb. but wait here is a problem with my phone's camera the image quality is not awesome in low lights its average with some noise at the ends of picture now where is the BSI sensor result??and the major issue is that my phone looses its focus while recording video and when i press centre of phone's screen then it appears ok what the hell is this? is it a software problem or my phone is buggy
There's an international One X forum, go there. Some others may be having the same problem. Honestly, it just sounds like you're expecting too much from the camera in terms of low light. Try messing with exposure? The phone comes over exposed though already.
vioalas said:
There's an international One X forum, go there. Some others may be having the same problem. Honestly, it just sounds like you're expecting too much from the camera in terms of low light. Try messing with exposure? The phone comes over exposed though already.
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yes i am expecting too much because htc and gsmarena makes me to expect that too much impressive result by talking about f/2.0 and BSI sensor performance. i also used n8 and that was mind blowing result and camera phone. anyhow what about problem in focus while recording? any one have any idea?
It must be a faulty handset. I've taken shots in almost absolute darkness and still been blown away by the camera's low level light performance. Like someone mentioned it's already oversaturated out the box.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA
shawn1224 said:
It must be a faulty handset. I've taken shots in almost absolute darkness and still been blown away by the camera's low level light performance. Like someone mentioned it's already oversaturated out the box.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA
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And oversaturation is good for low light pictures right? Sorry, my camera knowledge is slim to none at best.
Sent from my HTC One X
The only thing can really help the low light photography is a large sensor. You need a sensor the size of APS-C or full frame 35mm to achive that. The pee sized sensor in all phones can never get what you want no matter what technological wonders they have.
Unfortunately, those larger sensor (and the larger lens) is impossible to embed into a phone.
I also have a problem with the camera where the pics are mostly too yellow. Is this a common issue and is there a fix? I can't fine RGB adjustment in the stock camera app. Is there a good 3rd party camera app that has this feature?
plau13 said:
I also have a problem with the camera where the pics are mostly too yellow. Is this a common issue and is there a fix?
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It happens when you shoot indoors with incandescent lamps as lighting. You need to manually change the white blance to Incadescent mode in camera settings.
It's a common issue for majority of the cameras out there.
n70shan said:
yes i am expecting too much because htc and gsmarena makes me to expect that too much impressive result by talking about f/2.0 and BSI sensor performance. i also used n8 and that was mind blowing result and camera phone. anyhow what about problem in focus while recording? any one have any idea?
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The continuous autofocusing does seem to be quite aggressive, resulting in the phone always searching for something to focus on. This may be what you're experiencing. Try turning off the Face Detection option in the cameras settings. Hopefully that helps!
The low-light performance of this camera is not mind-blowing. The overall image quality and abilities of the camera is, to me, quite spectacular. But take my word, and the word of reviews around the internet, with a grain of salt, as we are all speaking relatively. That is, understand that this is a pretty awesome camera for a camera phone. It's not an 808, n8, n9, nor is it your average point and shoot camera, which will have a large sensor and better image processing. But the HOX is capable of taking photos that compare to those types of devices.
fitchpuckman said:
The continuous autofocusing does seem to be quite aggressive, resulting in the phone always searching for something to focus on. This may be what you're experiencing. Try turning off the Face Detection option in the cameras settings. Hopefully that helps!
The low-light performance of this camera is not mind-blowing. The overall image quality and abilities of the camera is, to me, quite spectacular. But take my word, and the word of reviews around the internet, with a grain of salt, as we are all speaking relatively. That is, understand that this is a pretty awesome camera for a camera phone. It's not an 808, n8, n9, nor is it your average point and shoot camera, which will have a large sensor and better image processing. But the HOX is capable of taking photos that compare to those types of devices.
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ok fine but plz tell that whether galaxy s3 has better camera compared to one xl or one x?
The verge has a hands on review go read it
Make sure you're using Low light mode in the settings too and not just Auto.
gunnyman said:
The verge has a hands on review go read it
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where?plz give me link to that site?
http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/25/3042640/samsung-galaxy-s-iii-review
n70shan said:
ok fine but plz tell that whether galaxy s3 has better camera compared to one xl or one x?
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I can't tell you one way or the other. I have not used the S3 or really looked deeply into it's camera. I'm sure this would be something you'd want to look around the web for, to see if any sites have gotten a hold of an S3 to test it out.
Just read that the SGIII has the same camera as the 4S. Take it as you will, but I like that camera. However its the post processing in the software that will produce the end result.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
It would be nice to hear some opinions on this following thoughts I've had, ever since I upgraded my phone last year from an iPhone 3G (2.5mp camera I think) to an Xperia Arc S, which at the time was the highest quality / size MP camera on a phone at 8MP, which is still a decent size for a phone camera today, as mid-ranged phones usually start at around 5-8MP and the super smart phones these days are running upward of 10MP, I think 13MP is the highest, at least on Android, that Nokia Symbian phone was like... 42MP? Or at least the fidelity / quality resembled that due to its massive lens housing, god knows what was in there, but if I remember rightly it was only 5MP images... Someone correct me.
Anyway, with my Arc S at 8MP, the images are fairly decent, I mean they're never going to be used for print, so it doesn't really need to be higher. However, as an art graduate, I spend time when I can taking photographs, and I have a 14MP Sony NEX 5, which as standard is already a better quality sensor than the tiny ones that make it into a phone.
My first point is it's still only 1MP higher than these smartphones, which makes me think; say I upgrade my phone in 1 year when 16MP is the highest, now we've gone over, for me I'm reluctant to go higher than my camera because I'd probably be swayed to using the phone more for photography, though the phones would probably have to be double the MP of a decent camera to really compare.
Secondly, Lenses, well the one on my Arc S is fairly standard, though probably more complex than some others as I think it has 7 layers of various shaped pieces of glass. But when it comes down to it, any photographer will tell you it's almost 100% the lens that really makes a photograph what it is, the phones are getting better quality, but the lenses probably aren't, the phones are constantly trying to get thinner which doesn't help matters, but phones have actually gotten fatter sue to bigger screens needing bigger battery, so I'm unsure on this part of the topic.
The lenses I use on my NEX are Canon FD mounts, a format from the early to mid 70's all the way up to about 1994, they are manual lenses because of their age and incompatibility with modern auto-focus, but the quality is superb, and I'm not just saying it, one of the lenses is a 1.4 50mm prime, and can do some great shots, though the camera isn't full frame so the lens works out at 75mm, but I also have a 28mm 2.2 (I think?) prime, which works out around 42mm and is really good.
Both lenses are dated between 1972 and 1982, and no current phone could replicate the fidelity, bokeh and colour, which is one of the reasons why proper cameras will always have the advantage. (The NEX doesn't have a mirror inside so can replicate the original setup of older cameras easily, meaning a huge number of adaptors allows tons of different lenses to become available)
However with the Nokia pureview phone (still don't remember its name... 850?...) It had a body capable of housing some very interesting tech, that hasn't really been used since, at least to my knowledge. Seeing some pictures online really showed you what this phone was capable of, I think the resolution of the images were in the ten thousands X whatever, and remained really sharp, for a phone at least. Maybe it's lack of success is due to it been on a non-leading OS at the time, I can imagine people would want a camera with maybe an Android phone? (Which apparently, Nokia are working on) so maybe it will see it's true colours shine on a larger base OS. If this tech is worth the larger body size of a phone, people are going to want it...
And lastly, Convenience. One of the main points of having a camera is to be able to capture moments WHENEVER, and having a decent camera on a phone has been a growing trend over the past few years, with the growth of social networks, YouTube and Instagram. And you're more likely to have a phone with you than a camera for a situation that's spontaneous.
So what are peoples thoughts? A few months back Jessops one of the leading camera sales company in the UK went into administration, with only a few stores been saved;
Will we see a heightening trend amongst phones been used instead of standalone cameras?
Will they (DSLR's etc) be phased out completely?
Are you an avid photographer with your phone, or do you use a standalone camera?
Am I wrong?
I'd like to hear some opinions, hopefuly some educated ones on the subject will give a sense on the spectrum of issues.
Another point to consider, Smart-Cameras, the new trend of cameras running Android, though I don't think any have interchangeable lenses.
Thanks for reading, also... You may need to change some 'if's to 'of's because my phone has a habit of changing my words.
Sent from my LT18i using xda app-developers app
I use my phone for everyday rubbish shots (whatsapp and such) and storing information (bustimes, lists, important stuff i take a snapshot of.) .
It will NEVER replace my DSLR.
It simply lacks the functionalities of one. So long as I can't set aperture and change lenses, it's not a real camera. I need my telezoom and macro lenses.
You can't seriously expect a phone, even that 42mp one to be as high - quality as a dslr. Too many pixels crammed into way too small a sensor. As it has always been with phones.
Not to mention, phones lack the power of a dslr. Ever tried taking nightshots with a phone? They're bad. Very bad. Or high speed shots. Nuhuh, they cant. Or far-zoom?
Lets face it, cameras on phones are not meant for professionals. They're meant for people on facebook, twitter and instagram.
Send From My Samsung Galaxy S3 Using Tapatalk 2
ShadowLea said:
I use my phone for everyday rubbish shots (whatsapp and such) and storing information (bustimes, lists, important stuff i take a snapshot of.) .
It will NEVER replace my DSLR.
It simply lacks the functionalities of one. So long as I can't set aperture and change lenses, it's not a real camera. I need my telezoom and macro lenses.
You can't seriously expect a phone, even that 42mp one to be as high - quality as a dslr. Too many pixels crammed into way too small a sensor. As it has always been with phones.
Not to mention, phones lack the power of a dslr. Ever tried taking nightshots with a phone? They're bad. Very bad. Or high speed shots. Nuhuh, they cant. Or far-zoom?
Lets face it, cameras on phones are not meant for professionals. They're meant for people on facebook, twitter and instagram.
Send From My Samsung Galaxy S3 Using Tapatalk 2
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Man how can you compare a DSLR with a smartphone camera??, a DSLR is a camera with an awesome quality and the smartphone camera is only a phone with a decent camera and not for pro- photographers.. i would always choose a DLSR over a smartphone camera. And by the way i agree with ShadowLea that you can't cram 42mp in a small lens!!! it is outrageous!
Well, it's to do with trends, if you agree or not is a different matter, but lots of pro photographers and teachers will tell you if you ask, about how important this new revolution is, the quality you can get is pretty good, even compared to digital cameras less than 10 years ago.
If it can take photographs then it's a valid form, there are pro photographers then spend lots of their time using phones for photography, 5MP and decent light is enough, some of these phones are better quality than the point and shoot cameras of recent past.
Instagram, though trendy is a very valid post processing tool, just because the majority of people use it recreationaly it doesn't diminish its power, and usage.
People use Polaroid cameras all the time, and they're quite limited, and the quality can vary greatly. You can't change the lens, and you can't really adjust any settings.
Polaroid is probably most comparable to the quality of the mid range smartphones.
As for the Nokia 41MP camera phone, if you actually look at the images you can get a good sense of the quality. The short article can be found here:
http://www.extremetech.com/electron...review-camera-finally-coming-to-windows-phone
You can also easily find examples by doing an image search on Nokia Pureview.
The convenience of a very good quality camera phone can allow for great photos, which is why it's really taking off as a trend.
Denying it is the same arguments as saying Digital is better than Film, though there are still counter arguments, benefits and people still use film cameras and Polaroid.
There's a statistic recently that goes something like; there have been more photographs taken in 2012 than all previous years since photography's invention combined.
I'm not sure if that's word for word correct, but I think it was on a Vsauce YouTube video not long back.
Sent from my LT18i using xda app-developers app
I think you need to understand that Professional stands for "getting paid for your work" or "being an accomplished/awarded photographer" and not "I can hold a camera!".
Yes, there have been more photo's taken in the last year than since the invention of the photograph. I do hope you are also aware that this includes every halfbrained moron on Instagram and Facebook posting their friday-night drunk shots.
No selfrespecting real photographer uses a phone's camera for his or her work. The only ones that do are either A, doing an experiment, or B, people on the internet fooling themselves into thinking they're photographers.
PHONE CAMERAS DO NOT HAVE APERATURE SETTINGS. And that's where it all ends. There isn't a single pro or semi-pro who uses a fixed aperature camera.
42MP doesn't make a bloody difference if the sensor is meant for 2MP. The photo's may look fine on the internet, but newsflash: Your monitor is 72DPI, not 300. And a 6000x6000 pixel image is always going to look amazing when downsized to 1920x1080 or lower. (which is what every website does.)
As for trends, they're for the common cattle, not semi/professionals. People with knowledge and experience pay attention to specs, not to hypes.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
ShadowLea said:
I think you need to understand that Professional stands for "getting paid for your work" or "being an accomplished/awarded photographer" and not "I can hold a camera!".
Yes, there have been more photo's taken in the last year than since the invention of the photograph. I do hope you are also aware that this includes every halfbrained moron on Instagram and Facebook posting their friday-night drunk shots.
No selfrespecting real photographer uses a phone's camera for his or her work. The only ones that do are either A, doing an experiment, or B, people on the internet fooling themselves into thinking they're photographers.
PHONE CAMERAS DO NOT HAVE APERATURE SETTINGS. And that's where it all ends. There isn't a single pro or semi-pro who uses a fixed aperature camera.
42MP doesn't make a bloody difference if the sensor is meant for 2MP. The photo's may look fine on the internet, but newsflash: Your monitor is 72DPI, not 300. And a 6000x6000 pixel image is always going to look amazing when downsized to 1920x1080 or lower. (which is what every website does.)
As for trends, they're for the common cattle, not semi/professionals. People with knowledge and experience pay attention to specs, not to hypes.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
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I think you're missing my point, I meant professional photographers that use iPhones for photography for non print, recreation, street photography etc.
Sent from my LT18i using xda app-developers app
For those interested in hearing a pro talk about it, I present, Chase Jarvis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buDa-m65RyA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from my LT18i using xda app-developers app
With phones starting to ship now I figured I'd get the ball rolling with a camera discussion / Image sample thread. I'll be sure to update this post once I have the device and get some sample shots. With the not so great reviews of the camera, I think this is a great thread to discuss the camera of the Essential phone. I'm sure it's going to bring a lot of debate
I'm wondering what is the actual sensor being used for the camera. Is it one of the Sony Exmor sensors that most phones use these days? If so, which one? It seems odd to me that this had not been reported on the way it usually is with flagship phones claiming to have great cameras, like the Pixel and U11.
I feel like the 360 camera was a bad choice as a first accessory.
A super high quality normal snap-on sensor would have changed the way this phone was received.
Goronok said:
I feel like the 360 camera was a bad choice as a first accessory.
A super high quality normal snap-on sensor would have changed the way this phone was received.
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The camera issues are software related.
The processing may need tweaking with real world shooting. The app has issues. I think they will sort the camera out. For me it's not a big deal since I almost always have a camera with an APS-C sensor around. I only do phone cameras in an emergency.
tech_head said:
The camera issues are software related.
The processing may need tweaking with real world shooting. The app has issues. I think they will sort the camera out. For me it's not a big deal since I almost always have a camera with an APS-C sensor around. I only do phone cameras in an emergency.
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Essential is saying it's software related in PR statements. But the camera issues have been around for months and they haven't been able to fix it. Droid Life reported on it back in June: http://www.droid-life.com/2017/06/05/essential-phone-camera-sample/
I think it's likely that they are using small 1/3 sensors (in order to have no camera hump in a thin phone); they seem to been avoiding publishing any information about what the actual sensors are in the phone and their size. That would definitely explain the low light issues. No software update is going to fix that.
And there have been so many cell phones that have come out with camera issues and promises of software fixes that never materialize. At best minor improvements happen. So I would not hold my breath for Essential being able to make huge imporvements. If they could have, they would have before they started handing it out to reviewers. It's not like they couldn't go out and snap photos like the reviewers are doing and see the problems (and if they didn't do that, then that level of incompetence makes me believe even less that there will be a miracle fix).
So I think people should be prepared for this being what the camera is more or less going to be like, with maybe some minor improvements.
cb474 said:
I'm wondering what is the actual sensor being used for the camera. Is it one of the Sony Exmor sensors that most phones use these days? If so, which one? It seems odd to me that this had not been reported on the way it usually is with flagship phones claiming to have great cameras, like the Pixel and U11.
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Sony IMX258
360 camera is IMX378
Kay1000RR said:
Sony IMX258
360 camera is IMX378
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Thanks. Yeah, I saw that yesterday. As I predicted, the sensor, IMX258, is a 1/3 sensor (and two years old at that). Super disappointing. This definitely explains the bad low light performance (along with EIS instead of OIS). As I said, I really doubt software updates are going to do much to improve it. Samsung has been putting larger sensors (1/2.5) in their phones for four years now. I big part of why the Pixel and U11 have good cameras are because of the 1/2.3 sensors in them. There is just no excuse for a so called "flagship" phone these days have a 1/3 sensor in it.
It seems like Essential was just overly obssessed with their perfectly flat back idea (which I don't even think looks so great, it's almost too plain) and thought they could do "magic" by combining two 1/3 sensors, one in BW mode, and somehow produce better pictures from two lower grade sensors. 2X bad information does not equal good information. Yeah, maybe they'll get a little extra detail out of the extra monochrome sensor. But it's not going to compete with a larger sensor. And it really doesn't look like they have even used the extra monochrome sensor well (while suffering the expense of severe shutter lag while the camera tries to interpolate the information from two sensors).
I'm really disappointed that they cheaped out on the camera and were overly obssessed with not having even the tiniest camera hump (which I think Samsung and Apple have proven people are totally fine with and still think their designs are great). What attracts me to the Essential phone is the large screen in a small phone size (and the titanium and ceramic are nice pluses); but I really don't give a damn about a perfectly flat back. To get the nice design with the screen I was willing to accept the lack of a 3.5 mm jack and other corners they cut on features. But they hyped the camera as being great, when they knew they had inferior sensors in it. If they can't get the things they do have in the phone right, it's hard for me to still want to get this phone (or trust this company).
cb474 said:
Thanks. Yeah, I saw that yesterday. As I predicted, the sensor, IMX258, is a 1/3 sensor (and two years old at that). Super disappointing. This definitely explains the bad low light performance (along with EIS instead of OIS). As I said, I really doubt software updates are going to do much to improve it. Samsung has been putting larger sensors (1/2.5) in their phones for four years now. I big part of why the Pixel and U11 have good cameras are because of the 1/2.3 sensors in them. There is just no excuse for a so called "flagship" phone these days have a 1/3 sensor in it.
It seems like Essential was just overly obssessed with their perfectly flat back idea (which I don't even think looks so great, it's almost too plain) and thought they could do "magic" by combining two 1/3 sensors, one in BW mode, and somehow produce better pictures from two lower grade sensors. 2X bad information does not equal good information. Yeah, maybe they'll get a little extra detail out of the extra monochrome sensor. But it's not going to compete with a larger sensor. And it really doesn't look like they have even used the extra monochrome sensor well (while suffering the expense of severe shutter lag while the camera tries to interpolate the information from two sensors).
I'm really disappointed that they cheaped out on the camera and were overly obssessed with not having even the tiniest camera hump (which I think Samsung and Apple have proven people are totally fine with and still think their designs are great). What attracts me to the Essential phone is the large screen in a small phone size (and the titanium and ceramic are nice pluses); but I really don't give a damn about a perfectly flat back. To get the nice design with the screen I was willing to accept the lack of a 3.5 mm jack and other corners they cut on features. But they hyped the camera as being great, when they knew they had inferior sensors in it. If they can't get the things they do have in the phone right, it's hard for me to still want to get this phone (or trust this company).
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You are are neglecting to factor in the increase in pixel density of the larger sensors.
The 258 has an area of 4.84mm^2 the 318 has an area of 5.24 mm^2 this is a 8% increase in area but a 60% increase in pixel.
With the pixels smaller the light collection ability and noise performance is not necessarily better.
The 318 is the newest mobile sensor that Sony has and it has 1um pixels.
They claim no drop in low light performance and noise from their 1.12um pixel sensors.
Mind you , they do not claim an increase in low light performance or noise,
So I'm not ready to dismiss the camera yet.
I'm not quite ready to dismiss it either. While the LG G6 may not win any awards for its main camera, it is definitely serviceable. Technically, the essential phone should take better snaps with the monochrome sensor combo too.
The Google camera port should help sweeten things too. I dunno, we'll see.
Goronok said:
I'm not quite ready to dismiss it either. While the LG G6 may not win any awards for its main camera, it is definitely serviceable. Technically, the essential phone should take better snaps with the monochrome sensor combo too.
The Google camera port should help sweeten things too. I dunno, we'll see.
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Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?
km8j said:
Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?
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A developer ported the Pixel version of the app with its special SW processing. So it's not really the Google camera but the Pixel camera app. I asked Michael Fisher if he tried the Pixel cam port and if it made a difference and he heard it does improve the camera but he hasn't tried it himself.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
It also might help even more once we get Root as there is adb command to do that allows the Google HDR+ camera to use the hardware imaging processor in the qualcomn chips to work with it. Will be trying this as soon as I can.
IM0001 said:
It also might help even more once we get Root as there is adb command to do that allows the Google HDR+ camera to use the hardware imaging processor in the qualcomn chips to work with it. Will be trying this as soon as I can.
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Interested in seeing this.
tech_head said:
You are are neglecting to factor in the increase in pixel density of the larger sensors.
The 258 has an area of 4.84mm^2 the 318 has an area of 5.24 mm^2 this is a 8% increase in area but a 60% increase in pixel.
With the pixels smaller the light collection ability and noise performance is not necessarily better.
The 318 is the newest mobile sensor that Sony has and it has 1um pixels.
They claim no drop in low light performance and noise from their 1.12um pixel sensors.
Mind you , they do not claim an increase in low light performance or noise,
So I'm not ready to dismiss the camera yet.
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Huh?
The 1/2.3 sensor in the phones I was mentioning is something like the IMX378 (in the Pixel). The IMX318 is not in any of the phones I was talking about. The IMX378 in the Pixel and and the sensor in the U11 (IMX362) are physically larger and have larger pixels, 1.55 um and 1.4 um respectively. Or also something like the IMX333 in the S8. That's why they do exactly what I said which is capture more light, rather than mindlessly chase higher megapixel counts.
The IMX318 is just a megapixel chasing sensor (22.5 MP), which is probably why it's only in more gimmicky phones, like the Zenfone and the Mi Note 2. Anyway, it has absolutely zero to do with any of the phones or types of sensors I was talking about. I have no idea why you brought it up.
km8j said:
Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?
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It's both. Someone ported over the pixel HDR+ processing to work on most snapdragon 820/821/835 devices.
Really works quite well, although no, I don't think it will utilize the B&W sensor.
cb474 said:
Huh?
The 1/2.3 sensor in the phones I was mentioning is something like the IMX378 (in the Pixel). The IMX318 is not in any of the phones I was talking about. The IMX378 in the Pixel and and the sensor in the U11 (IMX362) are physically larger and have larger pixels, 1.55 um and 1.4 um respectively. Or also something like the IMX333 in the S8. That's why they do exactly what I said which is capture more light, rather than mindlessly chase higher megapixel counts.
The IMX318 is just a megapixel chasing sensor (22.5 MP), which is probably why it's only in more gimmicky phones, like the Zenfone and the Mi Note 2. Anyway, it has absolutely zero to do with any of the phones or types of sensors I was talking about. I have no idea why you brought it up.
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Okay, you are right about the 318.
The other sensors, Sony promotes a for cameras and they do not promote mobile. At least officially.
Essential made a design decision not to have a camera bump and also what would fit in the package.
Design is all about trade-offs. I've seen the pics of how full the thing is. Maybe one of the others just wouldn't fit? I don't know. I do know that if the bezels were larger I wouldn't be interested. If it were thicker, same thing.
I love the design of this phone but ya it does have tradeoffs for sure. Camera is one of them. They could have easily made the bottom bezel match the top like the S8 and put in a larger sensor for sure but decision was made to go for the super wow factor which is not necessarily a bad one in my eyes. That being said idk if i personally can "Downgrade" from the pixels camera...
tech_head said:
Okay, you are right about the 318.
The other sensors, Sony promotes a for cameras and they do not promote mobile. At least officially.
Essential made a design decision not to have a camera bump and also what would fit in the package.
Design is all about trade-offs. I've seen the pics of how full the thing is. Maybe one of the others just wouldn't fit? I don't know. I do know that if the bezels were larger I wouldn't be interested. If it were thicker, same thing.
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Whatever those sensors were originally intended for, they have been used in the best phone cameras for some time now. Samsung started using sensors like that in 2013 and Nokia, really the inventor of the modern high quality phone camera, started doing it in 2007. So Essential knew what they were doing (or not doing as the case may be).
I agree that there are trade offs with design. But Essential didn't say: in order to have a perfectly flat back we decided not to use the state of the art sensors found in other top phone cameras and do something that we think is good enough for standard users. Instead they went out of their way to promote the camera as what would be one of the stand out features of the phone. The even specifically hyped how great it's low light peformance would be. But anyone who knew the sensors they were using (without OIS) could have predicted it would not be as good as they claimed. In fact, the Xiaomi Mi 5s Plus tried the exact same configuration a year before, two IMX258 sensors, one RGB the other Monochrome, with no OIS, and that camera had the exact same performance problems. So no one can say with a straight face that they didn't know what would happen.
Not only am I disappointed in the substandard performance of the camera in the Essential Phone (for a contemporary flagship), but I think Essential was totally dishonest in how they promoted this phone and apparently thought their stupid customers and reviewers wouldn't notice. Which also contradicts their claim they would be a different kind of consumer friendly company. To me, the whole clearly dishonest camera hyping episode reveals that Essential is a very different, not so nice, kind of company than they claimed and it makes me very skeptical of their claims about everything else in the phone and that they plan to do.
So I think the way things unfolded is a little different than simply Essential decided to make a design trade off.
Also, Essential has made an awful lot of design trade offs. No 3.5 mm jack. No stereo speakers. No water proofing. No sd card. And now a subpar camera. At some point it's not worth it. I was willing to live with those other things, even though I was not excited about them (especially the 3.5 mm jack). But at least the features that are there should live up to the quality the phone claims to have and the camera just does not come close.
Lastly, I really don't get it, the obsession with the perfectly flat back. The great thing about the Esssential design is the front; it's the bezeless screen and fitting a relatively large screen in a phone much smaller than usual. Secondarly the titanium and ceramic are nice touches. But who gives sh.. about the perfectly flat back? Seriously. I don't think this would have affected anyone's perception of the phone. It would have taken a very minor hump to get an IMX378 in there and without the two sensors taking up more space, they could have had OIS. It also would have fit the Essential branding. They could have said: "We are not jumping on the dual camera gimmick band wagon (since dual cameras pretty much are a gimmick, all the different ways it's done). Large sensors and OIS are what makes cameras good. So that's what we're doing. Just the 'essential' things."
In the end, the flat back just seems like a misguided obsession of Rubin himself in his desire to make his fantasy personal perfect phone.
Sounds like the phone isn't for you lol. Quite the post.
jerflash said:
I love the design of this phone but ya it does have tradeoffs for sure. Camera is one of them. They could have easily made the bottom bezel match the top like the S8 and put in a larger sensor for sure but decision was made to go for the super wow factor which is not necessarily a bad one in my eyes. That being said idk if i personally can "Downgrade" from the pixels camera...
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I doubt the design was by essential alone and instead their design choice limited by the display provided by Sharp who just released a similar phone.
https://www.dxomark.com/sony-xperia-xz-premium-first-sony-tested-with-our-new-protocols/
As expected, Sony's premium flagship gets an unimpressive score of 83 from DXoMark's revamped benchmarking (now including zoom, bokeh effect, artifacts, among other testing).
While i don't agree with the score per category (especially on having a low video stabilization score; seriously, Sony's 5-axis is arguably the best in video stabilization right now) but DXoMark does raise some good and valid points on what's wrong with Xperia phones. Hope Sony camera devs read the review as well so they know what to improve on (i.e. software algorithm on superior auto, noise and texture, lowlight performance, zoom in and bokeh effect).
Having said that, still one satisfied Xperia user here. The cons don't affect me that much; unless you're a person who's really nitpicking on every small detail, the Sony Xperia XZ Premium does a good job of being a solid performer in both photo and video capture.
Lawliet918 said:
https://www.dxomark.com/sony-xperia-xz-premium-first-sony-tested-with-our-new-protocols/
As expected, Sony's premium flagship gets an unimpressive score of 83 from DXoMark's revamped benchmarking (now including zoom, bokeh effect, artifacts, among other testing).
While i don't agree with the score per category (especially on having a low video stabilization score; seriously, Sony's 5-axis is arguably the best in video stabilization right now) but DXoMark does raise some good and valid points on what's wrong with Xperia phones. Hope Sony camera devs read the review as well so they know what to improve on (i.e. software algorithm on superior auto, noise and texture, lowlight performance, zoom in and bokeh effect).
Having said that, still one satisfied Xperia user here. The cons don't affect me that much; unless you're a person who's really nitpicking on every small detail, the Sony Xperia XZ Premium does a good job of being a solid performer in both photo and video capture.
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Sony no paid dxomark= dxmark trolling Sony.
Apple paid Dxomark= dxomark 96 points
Glad I don't use zoom on my XZP... Or I never even used it in my life. Truth is I cant expect from camera big as fingernail to catch photos like pro digital camera. Also every model with only one main camera will fail this test. Still I am happy with xzp camera for taking pictures, even the front camera is finally good for selfies.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm4ZdMbV
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm4ZdMbV
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm4ZdMbV
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm4XtNwH
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm2QjnKd
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm2QjnKd
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm4AWDDW
Also we should wait for xz1 review, maybe they did some update on img processing...
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
smitrovic said:
Glad I don't use zoom on my XZP... Or I never even used it in my life.
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Yeah, I'm not sure why this is even part of the test. If there is no actual optical zoom, what are they really testing? I see people zoom in on their smartphone cameras all the time and I wonder what the point is. Just crop the photo later. You get a better picture, and the "zoom" is effectively the same.
It's really sad and bit disappointing. I think most of the stuff they were saying true.
Couldn't care less. I didn't buy this phone for it's camera
Come on Sony... 83
Come on Sony'
I bought the XZ Premium because I already own Sony cameras. Sony is obviously the leader in sensor technology and by teaming up with Zeiss there should be no questions about the hardware. So... That only leaves one thing. Software! Apple uses Sony Sensors. Samsung likewise. Even Huawei. So we know their sensors are no better, it must be the software. Please Sony, get off your arrogant asses and give us something that's competitive. I know this 83 could be brought up to 93 if you can just give us a new update and a little software support.
I guess that wont happen ever, because Sony needs to save digital camera market tho. If they made this camera use all potential, they wont sell any 200-400 euro digital cameras.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
The initial purporpose of dxomark is to diminish any phone that lacks a second lens for bokeh and zoom and from the other side to favor the phones that have it. So i cannot take this test into consideration because it lacks any professionalism and puts double standards.
I know people love slating DXoMark with remarks like "Sony no paid dxomark= dxmark trolling Sony." I also know that we can't say if that is true or not but to be honest we don't even need DXoMarks score. The camera is poor compared to 2017 flagships. Just take an objective look and test for yourself. The problem on this forum is that people are so blind sighted and such massive fanboys they can't step back and go wow yeah this is awful. I spend £649 on this phone sim free and I understand a lot of people have done the same and want to back up the purchase with claims like the above.
The point of the matter though is that Sony's whole marketing for this thing was the camera and weather you look at a DXoMark score or not, it is not up to scratch . Its low light performance is miles of the competition, the dynamic range is shockingly bad compared to phone like the Pixel, Galaxy S7 or iPhone 7 all of which where released last year. Not even looking at the quality of the photos there is also many other issues such as camera distortion etc.
I just wish Sony would acknowledge these issues and say "Hey we are working on it" but they don't. What i would also like is a camera 2 API so at least we can use another camera app.
jms.flynn said:
I know people love slating DXoMark with remarks like "Sony no paid dxomark= dxmark trolling Sony." I also know that we can't say if that is true or not but to be honest we don't even need DXoMarks score. The camera is poor compared to 2017 flagships. Just take an objective look and test for yourself. The problem on this forum is that people are so blind sighted and such massive fanboys they can't step back and go wow yeah this is awful. I spend £649 on this phone sim free and I understand a lot of people have done the same and want to back up the purchase with claims like the above.
The point of the matter though is that Sony's whole marketing for this thing was the camera and weather you look at a DXoMark score or not, it is not up to scratch . Its low light performance is miles of the competition, the dynamic range is shockingly bad compared to phone like the Pixel, Galaxy S7 or iPhone 7 all of which where released last year. Not even looking at the quality of the photos there is also many other issues such as camera distortion etc.
I just wish Sony would acknowledge these issues and say "Hey we are working on it" but they don't. What i would also like is a camera 2 API so at least we can use another camera app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then go and pay 1200 pounds to get your iPhone X to shoot in auto mode, and let the people who know about photography to shoot better photos in manual mode with almost half the price.
jms.flynn said:
I know people love slating DXoMark with remarks like "Sony no paid dxomark= dxmark trolling Sony." I also know that we can't say if that is true or not but to be honest we don't even need DXoMarks score. The camera is poor compared to 2017 flagships. Just take an objective look and test for yourself. The problem on this forum is that people are so blind sighted and such massive fanboys they can't step back and go wow yeah this is awful. I spend £649 on this phone sim free and I understand a lot of people have done the same and want to back up the purchase with claims like the above.
The point of the matter though is that Sony's whole marketing for this thing was the camera and weather you look at a DXoMark score or not, it is not up to scratch . Its low light performance is miles of the competition, the dynamic range is shockingly bad compared to phone like the Pixel, Galaxy S7 or iPhone 7 all of which where released last year. Not even looking at the quality of the photos there is also many other issues such as camera distortion etc.
I just wish Sony would acknowledge these issues and say "Hey we are working on it" but they don't. What i would also like is a camera 2 API so at least we can use another camera app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can use other camera apps, just not the free versions. If you can handle a couple of euros for Camera Zoom FX you will find that the camera is not as you describe it!!! By any chance have you unlocked your bootloader? I'm sure you know that currently there is no way to backup your TA partition wich means the loss of your DRM unique key which enables camera features, and more.
I've been an xperia fan for a long time and finally Sony are releasing sw updates more frequently and this handset will get Oreo once the sony team puts it together. This will transform this handset which has great HW, as all xperia handsets
Katsigaros said:
Then go and pay 1200 pounds to get your iPhone X to shoot in auto mode, and let the people who know about photography to shoot better photos in manual mode with almost half the price.
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Click to collapse
Wasn't really my point was it. You can go buy a year old S7 or LG G6 and shoot in manual mode or in auto mode and smash the Sony out of the water.
And if you want a more stock android experience buy a Moto G5 Plus and that also beats the Sony.
The reason I know is because i have them. The way the sony was sold with improved lens, better low light due to bigger pixel size and hybrid auto focus this was supposed to be a beast of a camera. Which it isn't, not even close.
---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
WildBit said:
I've been an xperia fan for a long time and finally Sony are releasing sw updates more frequently and this handset will get Oreo once the sony team puts it together. This will transform this handset which has great HW, as all xperia handsets
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lets hope so, I am a huge Sony fan and want them to succeeded. I've had all the xperia's since the z3 compact. I just want a camera experience which is as good as the rest of the software and hardware.
This new DXO formula is idiotic... It gives adventages to dualcam phones.
whats the point of doing bokkeh test if there is actually no bokkeh...It should be a feature, it should not affect the score, because many other phones have their own features which are not measured by DXO tests.
for example. XZP has no bokkeh, but it has wider lens, which is a big advantage for me, but there are no additional point for that in the test.
Beside that, DXO tests started to be incomparable.
Look at Iphone 8 review and XZP review. I8 review is 10x more complex - it contains way more tests than XZP review.
There are also inconsistencies like:
At the first paragraph, in the "Test Summary" section they wrote, quote:
"the XZ Premium features relatively strong autofocus performance for both photography and video, as well as very good stabilization for video."
But at the end, in the "Conclusion" section they wrote, quote:
"Video performance is also competent, but marred by problems with loss of detail and mediocre stabilization."
it is really pathetic and not professional.
jms.flynn said:
I know people love slating DXoMark with remarks like "Sony no paid dxomark= dxmark trolling Sony." I also know that we can't say if that is true or not but to be honest we don't even need DXoMarks score. The camera is poor compared to 2017 flagships. Just take an objective look and test for yourself. The problem on this forum is that people are so blind sighted and such massive fanboys they can't step back and go wow yeah this is awful. I spend £649 on this phone sim free and I understand a lot of people have done the same and want to back up the purchase with claims like the above.
The point of the matter though is that Sony's whole marketing for this thing was the camera and weather you look at a DXoMark score or not, it is not up to scratch . Its low light performance is miles of the competition, the dynamic range is shockingly bad compared to phone like the Pixel, Galaxy S7 or iPhone 7 all of which where released last year. Not even looking at the quality of the photos there is also many other issues such as camera distortion etc.
I just wish Sony would acknowledge these issues and say "Hey we are working on it" but they don't. What i would also like is a camera 2 API so at least we can use another camera app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you even know what is a good photograph?
You don't like the camera quality? Seriously?
I take night photos like never before. Low light photos that are fantastic, videos in slow motion at night that are perfect.
And you compare with s7 and iPhone?
gengi said:
Do you even know what is a good photograph?
You don't like the camera quality? Seriously?
I take night photos like never before. Low light photos that are fantastic, videos in slow motion at night that are perfect.
And you compare with s7 and iPhone?
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Click to collapse
Ok, now I know you're seriously trolling. ha ha
Please show me one of your "videos in slow motion at night that are perfect".
The 960FPS is cool, if not gimmicky, but it only really works well in very very good light
jms.flynn said:
Ok, now I know you're seriously trolling. ha ha
Please show me one of your "videos in slow motion at night that are perfect".
The 960FPS is cool, if not gimmicky, but it only really works well in very very good light
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960 fps, at night and 500 meters (at least) apart, I would say it's very good.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3HA5nmqdPh0SFFLVHpXRjBxRDA/view?usp=drivesdk
gengi said:
960 fps, at night and 500 meters (at least) apart, I would say it's very good.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3HA5nmqdPh0SFFLVHpXRjBxRDA/view?usp=drivesdk
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Click to collapse
I know in certain lighting conditions it causes alot of flicker. I thought at night it would flicker but it doesnt so thats really cool. Nice video by the way.
Its like alot of people say though, as soon as Samsung or Apple do something new everyone in the world is like wow look at this. Then Sony does it and everyone is quiet about it. Our device the XZ Premium is the first to have a 4K HDR screen and is also the only device alongside the XZS and XZ1 to record at 960fps. Nobody in the world understands how cool it is to have those two features in the palm of your hand. If Samsung or Apple did it then im sure they would understand. As soon as another company besides Apple or Samsung do something cool they get criticised by their 'big bezels' which shouldnt even matter when you take into consideration the features packed into the device.
The score given for our device, I dont think its fair. If you want something fair watch a YouTube video on a comparison or review of the camera, im sure they will be more on point and accurate.
I didnt buy the phone for its camera. If someone wants to say they have an iPhone 8 with a higher score than my XZ Premium they can but I believe the scores are biased and that the rest of their scores are one-sided.
Don't want to bag Sony down but I have compared the XZ Premium(company issued to me) against the Pixel (I own), Pixel 2 (wife owns) and hands down, it is definitely inferior than the Pixels... It takes crappy low light photos with lots of noise. It also struggles with photos where the background is brighter. Again, I think Sony's problem really is software, just like with most Sony phones I owned.
However, I'm not saying that it doesn't do decent photos, it does. I think 86 is too low. Personally, I'd rate it around 90-92.
chefnoob said:
Don't want to bag Sony down but I have compared the XZ Premium(company issued to me) against the Pixel (I own), Pixel 2 (wife owns) and hands down, it is definitely inferior than the Pixels... It takes crappy low light photos with lots of noise. It also struggles with photos where the background is brighter. Again, I think Sony's problem really is software, just like with most Sony phones I owned.
However, I'm not saying that it doesn't do decent photos, it does. I think 86 is too low. Personally, I'd rate it around 90-92.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think everyone knows already that the Pixel has a better camera.
At the club, at the bar, or just in your mom's basement, nighttime is when you come out to play. Rate this thread to express how the Samsung Galaxy S9+'s camera performs when no or low light is present. A higher rating indicates that the camera sensor "sees" lots of light in dim conditions, and that the resulting photos have minimal noise. A higher rating also indicates that when the flash fires, the resulting photo is evenly-lit without any bright spots.
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!
These 2 photos were taken in dark factory yesterday with my 9+
I'll post some lathe pictures tomorrow (S9+) getting delivered tonight.
Taken at nighttime, no flash S9+
Sorry wrong thread
Someone pls delete
Some pictures taken at night; pretty impressed with the camera quality and clarity:
:fingers-crossed:
Galaxo60 said:
Some pictures taken at night; pretty impressed with the camera quality and clarity:
:fingers-crossed:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The one with the shed turned out really good. The sky looks awesome
zathus said:
The one with the shed turned out really good. The sky looks awesome
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Click to collapse
Yes, camera is awesome and I'm pretty happy with the device.
Low light on this phone is incredible. Ive never seen a phone like it when it comes to the dark. https://youtu.be/ZX_JY35oFCc
jrharvey said:
Low light on this phone is incredible. Ive never seen a phone like it when it comes to the dark. https://youtu.be/ZX_JY35oFCc
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Click to collapse
Finally we have a proof which one is better. Clearly S9+ has better cam than Google Pixel 2!
Pixel 2 eat your heart out. Finally!
THANK YOU from all XDA Members who had any doubt about which of these two phones to buy!!
androidbadboy said:
Finally we have a proof which one is better. Clearly S9+ has better cam than Google Pixel 2!
Pixel 2 eat your heart out. Finally!
THANK YOU from all XDA Members who had any doubt about which of these two phones to buy!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well to be fair I own both phones and they both have their strength and weaknesses. I prefer the google pixel 2 PICTURES right now however once GCAM gets ported to the S9 I think the advantage will 100% go to the galaxy. For now the video on the S9 is much better but if your into auto snapshots the pixel 2 still probably beats out in good lighting. Move to low light and of course the S9 just destroys the pixel 2.
jrharvey said:
Well to be fair I own both phones and they both have their strength and weaknesses. I prefer the google pixel 2 PICTURES right now however once GCAM gets ported to the S9 I think the advantage will 100% go to the galaxy. For now the video on the S9 is much better but if your into auto snapshots the pixel 2 still probably beats out in good lighting. Move to low light and of course the S9 just destroys the pixel 2.
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Click to collapse
Did I understand You right? You claim that Pixel 2 makes better photos than S9+ in daylight?!
androidbadboy said:
Did I understand You right? You claim that Pixel 2 makes better photos than S9+ in daylight?!
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Click to collapse
Thats just my personal opinion. Also I believe this will change once gcam gets ported to the S9. Its all subjective and really depends on the situation but Id much prefer the S9 camera over the pixel 2 in 95% of the situations because #1 I care more about video and #2 the daytime shots are very similar and almost not noticable however once you get in low light the S9 really flexes its muscle for sure. The dynamic range on the pixel 2 IN PICTURES during the day definately is slightly better HOWEVER when it comes to video the S9 can pull off some pretty impressive dynamic range if you have the right app or if you edit the footage in post. I dont like how contrasty samsungs video is but luckily you can pull out a ton of detail from the shadows in an editing program if you need to.
androidbadboy said:
Finally we have a proof which one is better. Clearly S9+ has better cam than Google Pixel 2!
Pixel 2 eat your heart out. Finally!
THANK YOU from all XDA Members who had any doubt about which of these two phones to buy!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
jrharvey said:
Well to be fair I own both phones and they both have their strength and weaknesses. I prefer the google pixel 2 PICTURES right now however once GCAM gets ported to the S9 I think the advantage will 100% go to the galaxy. For now the video on the S9 is much better but if your into auto snapshots the pixel 2 still probably beats out in good lighting. Move to low light and of course the S9 just destroys the pixel 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
androidbadboy said:
Did I understand You right? You claim that Pixel 2 makes better photos than S9+ in daylight?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
jrharvey said:
Thats just my personal opinion. Also I believe this will change once gcam gets ported to the S9. Its all subjective and really depends on the situation but Id much prefer the S9 camera over the pixel 2 in 95% of the situations because #1 I care more about video and #2 the daytime shots are very similar and almost not noticable however once you get in low light the S9 really flexes its muscle for sure. The dynamic range on the pixel 2 IN PICTURES during the day definately is slightly better HOWEVER when it comes to video the S9 can pull off some pretty impressive dynamic range if you have the right app or if you edit the footage in post. I dont like how contrasty samsungs video is but luckily you can pull out a ton of detail from the shadows in an editing program if you need to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After having the Pixel 2 XL and now the S9+, I prefer the camera on the S9+, because Pixel 2 XL processes the pics too much and they look unreal. They are just social network ready, but not natural at all, and it usually oversharps and put a lot of drama to the pictures. They look nice at first sight, but just try to zoom a little in details and you will notice the loss in detail and quality. In low light, Pixel is just noise and grain.
Anyway, I leave here a video I really liked and to say this guy made a great job comparing both cameras:
:good:
Galaxo60 said:
After having the Pixel 2 XL and now the S9+, I prefer the camera on the S9+, because Pixel 2 XL processes the pics too much and they look unreal. They are just social network ready, but not natural at all, and it usually oversharps and put a lot of drama to the pictures. They look nice at first sight, but just try to zoom a little in details and you will notice the loss in detail and quality. In low light, Pixel is just noise and grain.
Anyway, I leave here a video I really liked and to say this guy made a great job comparing both cameras:
:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very helpful video for the undecided ones!
UHD/60 is amazing.
Compared to my Note 8, well there is no comparison.
I'm talking low light. I can take video in a dark passageway and play it back and see more than my eyes can AND it's not a snowy, grainy mess!
That's impressive indeed!
cpufrost said:
UHD/60 is amazing.
Compared to my Note 8, well there is no comparison.
I'm talking low light. I can take video in a dark passageway and play it back and see more than my eyes can AND it's not a snowy, grainy mess!
That's impressive indeed!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously You can see MORE with S9+ than with your naked eyes? Do You use flashlight when looking at dark areas with S9+?
I'm SHOCKED. This is quite amazing and quite impossible.
Nope, when I look at video taken in a dark room I can make it more details than I can with my own eyes.
My eyes are good in the dark, all I need is a single 3 lumen night light to walk around in a 400 ft^2 room. Just as a security camera night (IR) mode can reveal details, it's far inferior to a brightly lit room. Our eyes work the same way. The image processing is amazing that it can reduce noise reasonably well and preserve color balance. Non of my other devices can do this.
cpufrost said:
Nope, when I look at video taken in a dark room I can make it more details than I can with my own eyes.
My eyes are good in the dark, all I need is a single 3 lumen night light to walk around in a 400 ft^2 room. Just as a security camera night (IR) mode can reveal details, it's far inferior to a brightly lit room. Our eyes work the same way. The image processing is amazing that it can reduce noise reasonably well and preserve color balance. Non of my other devices can do this.
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Click to collapse
So it's final then, S9+ broke all barriers for smartphone cameras. It's the best in the world. No doubt about it. Iphone X and Pixel 2 can not hold a candle to S9+
Congrats to Samsung!
Well let's put it this way. I have an iPhone X. I use it for work and Apple dev projects. I like it a lot. It's the best iPhone I've owned. And I preferred it over my Note 8 for video based on the fact that it can do UHD at 60fps. It still has issues with AF hunting though. I have not tested the 9+ to see how it fares in that department. In the dark, however, off come the kids gloves. Video is the best I've seen. I also use Filmic Pro and ProCam on the X to get the best out of the hardware. Tough to beat physics with f 1.5. The processing helps too. SEC does need to work on the glare problems, however. And given such a small lens aperture I suppose reflections are just impossible to avoid (inter element reflections). Take video of a bright light on the ceiling or at a concert with multiple points of bright light, you will see.
As for the Pixel phones, my last Google device was the Nexus 6. Loved the dev on that phone but its time has come and gone. Hated the aesthetics of the Pixel series. The N6 had a great camera but horrible software. I don't care for TW but SEC got it right on the camera software out of the box. Ever since the S6E+. I wish they would move back to a 16MP sensor though. Shooting RAW in pro mode yielded some incredible shots that are hard to get today still.