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Why Honor 8 is better than Most Flagship phones

Guys, Show me your love for Honor Brand! I know it is a great phone with superb looks. This brand needs to be shown to the world why it is amongst world's best and this thread with enormous replies will surely help the world notice ! Three Cheers for HONOR! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah!
robin 33111 said:
Guys, Show me your love for Honor Brand! I know it is a great phone with superb looks. This brand needs to be shown to the world why it is amongst world's best and this thread with enormous replies will surely help the world notice ! Three Cheers for HONOR! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is allready known by people that look further then a Samsung phone and tech insiders. Some marketing by Honor wouldn`t hurt though to further the brand`s name and let the general public get to know Honor.
The most attractive thing is the look of the phone.
Many people use iphone to show off others.
If we get most attractive look to show off, who will miss it? Especially the Saffire blue color is of top notch.
robin 33111 said:
Guys, Show me your love for Honor Brand! I know it is a great phone with superb looks. This brand needs to be shown to the world why it is amongst world's best and this thread with enormous replies will surely help the world notice ! Three Cheers for HONOR! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah! Hip Hip Hurrah!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think its one of the best when It comes to Price to Quality Ratio, my brother is enjoying his Honor 8 alot and its a good package overall given its Price
This model is very good indeed. The only thing preventing it from getting a bigger acceptance is price: it´s too close to OP3 and Axon7 with better SOC´s (single thread and GPU), 4K screen and recording, OIS, sound, etc.
If Huawei manages to bring H8 down to 350€/£310 or lower, to what H7 was at time of launch, then it will make an absolute no-brainer. Until then there will be articles like "Honor 8, flagship killer?" because being in the same price range of mentioned flagship killers.
Honor 8 should be positioned as an upper middle class device as the specs indicate.
zinko_pt said:
This model is very good indeed. The only thing preventing it from getting a bigger acceptance is price: it´s too close to OP3 and Axon7 with better SOC´s (single thread and GPU), 4K screen and recording, OIS, sound, etc.
If Huawei manages to bring H8 down to 350€/£310 or lower, to what H7 was at time of launch, then it will make an absolute no-brainer. Until then there will be articles like "Honor 8, flagship killer?" because being in the same price range of mentioned flagship killers.
Honor 8 should be positioned as an upper middle class device as the specs indicate.
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Click to collapse
Hoping to see a competitive pricing in, price sensitive markets like indian market.
vsriram92 said:
Hoping to see a competitive pricing in, price sensitive markets like indian market.
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Click to collapse
Every market is price sensitive for various reasons. But I guess Huawei will ride the novelty factor and make as much money as they can with H8.
When the novelty goes, in a couple of months we shall see either discount coupons or bundle promotions, at Vmall. Probably December like they did last year for H7.
zinko_pt said:
This model is very good indeed. The only thing preventing it from getting a bigger acceptance is price: it´s too close to OP3 and Axon7 with better SOC´s (single thread and GPU), 4K screen and recording, OIS, sound, etc.
If Huawei manages to bring H8 down to 350€/£310 or lower, to what H7 was at time of launch, then it will make an absolute no-brainer. Until then there will be articles like "Honor 8, flagship killer?" because being in the same price range of mentioned flagship killers.
Honor 8 should be positioned as an upper middle class device as the specs indicate.
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Click to collapse
Absolutely right, Axon7 an 1+3 do offer more for the same price, plus they also have custom ROMs unlike honor 8
Hell Mi5 regular offers more than H8 at 100$ lower pricing.
But it's not available in the US (officially)
troublecro said:
Hell Mi5 regular offers more than H8 at 100$ lower pricing.
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Depends on your preference. Personally I wouldn't sacrifice software stability, better quality of construction, better customer support, better camera, expandable storage and better network support of Huawei in favour of a faster Mi5.
zinko_pt said:
Depends on your preference. Personally I wouldn't sacrifice software stability, better quality of construction, better customer support, better camera, expandable storage and better network support of Huawei in favour of a faster Mi5.
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Click to collapse
I do agree, mi5 had some issues with software and hardware
PalakMi said:
I do agree, mi5 had some issues with software and hardware
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Click to collapse
With that you added nothing besides to your post count. Nice going.:silly:
troublecro said:
Hell Mi5 regular offers more than H8 at 100$ lower pricing.
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Click to collapse
I don't prefer MI because of its build quality and personal experience of the problems faced within 1 month of purchase of RedMI Note 3.
However still people are going crazy on MI devices.
We have both(me n my brother in law) . 1 week of use and Huawei had scratches all over the phone. And I see I'm not the only one. What quality are we talking about? there is 0 screen protection. Both carried in same conditions.
Aside from by miles better screen,charging(and charger options) sound, marginal in battery, community support(that doesn't exist in huaweii)
He'll i even add software cuz MIUI 8 is by my preference miles ahead of Emui.
There is nothing like the Honor-experience to me.
I ordered the Honor 8 Blue on Monday on vmall, it got delivered 10 am on tuesday... insane!
Its unicolor, bezel has same color as the back and front.
Also, if you turn down animation speeds to 0,5 in developer settings, this phone seems lightning fast.
Benchmark scores dont matter to me, the Kirin 950 runs every app that i used to use on iphone 6s and Samsung S7 equally well.
One of the few things i want for the Honor 9 next year, would be Dual Sim slot with the capability of using a micro-SD card at the same time, like Motorola G4 can. And at least 64GB internal memory. I know there will be a 64GB model Honor 8 in the EU soon, but why not sell it at release? ...
troublecro said:
We have both(me n my brother in law) . 1 week of use and Huawei had scratches all over the phone. And I see I'm not the only one. What quality are we talking about? there is 0 screen protection. Both carried in same conditions.
Aside from by miles better screen,charging(and charger options) sound, marginal in battery, community support(that doesn't exist in huaweii)
He'll i even add software cuz MIUI 8 is by my preference miles ahead of Emui.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Back or front? The back seems to scratch pretty easily, but the front seems ok. Phone dropped from sitting right on front and nothing seems scratched at all. (Actually it fall on rocks! I was impressed)
Actually, the back is easy to scratch unlike the front.
Luckily, an honor employee said he will forward this to honor. I hope they fix this in the next batch
PalakMi said:
Actually, the back is easy to scratch unlike the front.
Luckily, an honor employee said he will forward this to honor. I hope they fix this in the next batch
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Click to collapse
Yup. But on my Blue honor you hardly notice the back scratches, I guess it might be more noticeable on the less glossy colors.
How did you contact the honor employee? Are they still active on XDA?
BBLN said:
Yup. But on my Blue honor you hardly notice the back scratches, I guess it might be more noticeable on the less glossy colors.
How did you contact the honor employee? Are they still active on XDA?
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Click to collapse
They're active, and one quoted me when I mentioned the issue and said that he will forward it to honor

Please help have xz considering honor 8 or p9

Hi there just curious as to which phone is better out of the three in the title I'm very curious as I have the xz but have an exchange available with cash back for the other two phones....
I do like my xz but the screen mirroring seems a bit weak but I'm wondering which phones best all round I use my phone ALOT!!!
Main things I like is smoothness and quickness really as I play the odd game watch YouTube and do a lot of browsing and messaging.
Thanks in advance will
Anyone ?

Honor 8 Still worth buying in May 2017?

Hi everyone,
My Xperia Z3 which I love is unfortunately dying and I need to replace it.
I'm buying either Honor 8 or Redmi Note 4 (if I decide to save some money - and also I like the big screen).
So, my question is: is Honor 8 still worth buying now around 320-330€? Is it worth double the price of the Note 4? I know it has no custom rom support, but:
-will it get Android O?
-how's the display in sunlight?
-how's the battery?
If the answer of all these questions is meh, I'll go with Redmi Note 4.
Thanks to everyone who will reply!
Yes still worth buying. Honor /Huawei have a sale on the Honor 8 if the phone fits your needs go for it.. It's a great device.. Just my 2 cents worth..
francesco_mnz said:
Hi everyone,
My Xperia Z3 which I love is unfortunately dying and I need to replace it.
I'm buying either Honor 8 or Redmi Note 4 (if I decide to save some money - and also I like the big screen).
So, my question is: is Honor 8 still worth buying now around 320-330€? Is it worth double the price of the Note 4? I know it has no custom rom support, but:
-will it get Android O?
-how's the display in sunlight?
-how's the battery?
If the answer of all these questions is meh, I'll go with Redmi Note 4.
Thanks to everyone who will reply!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Display in sunlight and battery, camera , average performance very good, things that i dont recommend this device to other probably low in loud speaker quality.
Rumor: There's going to be a new version announced/released in the next two to three months at an event in Taipei. I'd guess it'll have a Kirin 960 which has a much nicer GPU.
Huawei has been VERY bad with updates. I was using the B360 release until yesterday or the day before when B385 was pushed to me via OTA. A number of posters still haven't received that update and they're none too happy about it. B360 came out at the end of December 2016 and B385 just came out a week into May which is an unacceptably long time to be running months out of date security.
B385 may have introduced battery life problems I wasn't experiencing, but which others have been on B360. I have only been using it a day or two though, so it's hard for me to say for sure as of yet as my phone has spent most of its time on my PC or next to my bed charging.
Hopefully, the people who are still on B360 get B385 soon, hopefully the worse battery on my phone is just my imagination, and we'll get a timely update next month, but those things are all yet to be seen. If Huawei gets the update out to other Honor 8 owners within the next week, gets the May security update out in early June, and starts keeping up to date, then I'll be happy with the phone, but that remains to be seen.
It is a great phone, but if you buy one you may be stuck using 5 month out of date software indefinitely, and even if you get B385 right away we don't know that the next update will be out in a month. It could be not until November or never to get the update after it. Combine that with that a new version of the phone will probably be announced and available in a couple months and I'd say to wait. We don't know if or when Android O is coming to the Honor 8. As much as I like this phone I can't recommend buying it at the current time.
We still aren't getting any communication from Huawei/Honor as to what to expect as far as future updates. And that's really troubling.
I would suggest waiting for this years release which I would expect to be out soon or looking at the One Plus 3T. One Plus is rumored to be coming out with the One Plus 5 sometime soon too, so right now is not really a great time to be buying a phone if you can wait.
Thanks all for replying. Honor seems to be a big disappointment, it's good but something form Huawei is always lacking...
I can wait hoping that my phone survives until the summer one plus 3t is a bit too expensive, I'm still thinking of saving some money and go for Redmi Note 4 or Lenovo P2, even if I know Honor feels more like a "top phone".
If anyone will give some other opinion it will be so much appreciated.
Well, just to say my opinion
Fisrt of all, I had a lots of smartphones
Just the last 20 months I had more then 5 phones changed
The thing is, I am reading on xda for every phone the same like I wont buy LG or Sony or Samsung ever again.. its allways the same talk..
Like allways people searched for the best thing for the money and then got disapointed by something and than started like I wont buy LG anymore
Next thing thay do is buying something else.. the best for the money and again talk bad about it..
WHY??
Well, guys you must realize that the one usually are disapointed were looking for the perfect one for the money
Well, there is not evan one phone on the market wich is PERFECT FOR THE MONEY
Couse it always will be short on something
Like locked bootloader and no xda support or like no support from the manufacturer but then a bit of xda support or the build qualitie maybee good but then it is maybe fingerprint magnet..
Just be aware of that you will never get all for the money.. it is and will be allways like that..
So when you want to buy any phone be ready to be satisfide with it as is.. dont be wanting all of it for the money.. no phone has it
Soo, if you want now to consider things and this Honor 8 be prepared to like it in a way that allmost everything is ok.. allmost.. like awesome look.. premium feel but easy to scretch or be a fingerprint magnet.. able to unlock the bootloader and root and install twrp.. great battery like 9hours of SoT on B381.. great speed.. allmost perfect..BUT for now not much of custom rom support wich can change with getting the source code.. soo the best is yet to come
Soo, its almost perfect.. but dont look for perfect
You will never find it
Not evan iPhone is perfect
Look for something you will like it as is
And after like 20 smatphones I had this one is the best of it
In real world beating phones like double the priceed like pixel.. not benchmark numbers but real time speed of opening apps or things like that
Look on you tube real time speed and performance
You just can not go wrong with this phone for that money
Hope you will think about my advice
Not be looking for the best on the market
Evan samsung s8+ users are after one week of use complaining about things couse they also thought for that money s8 would be the best.. and that got dissapointed with it too..
I'll just leave this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aypUksJ647c
Going back to the original question, it's a fantastic phone but you can try to get it for less than you mentioned. Don't know where you live but in the UK every now and then the price gets really good. The other day one of the supermarket chains was selling them for £200 and for that kind of money it's a no-brainer.
Bii @sysak
Thanks for the you tube link
That is what I try to say about this phone and real time performans.. ?
brljak83 said:
Bii @sysak
Thanks for the you tube link
That is what I try to say about this phone and real time performans..
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Depends on what you value.
It's a "value" phone so it sits on a sweet spot. If you value bug correction and updates, I would say definitely no. If you want a nice phone and are a basic user, then yes, get it.
Please just don't go on any trade-in program with Honor/Huawei. My Honor7 had zero scratches (always tempered glass and protective case) and after receiving my phone on their side, they lowered £10 on the evaluation. i rejected it in the 20th March. I haven't received my phone back yet. :crying:
The brand cares about new customers, not so much about existing ones (it's my 2nd Honor). Hence why the budget goes to advertisement and not to supporting developing community or regular updates/fixes.
Hii @zinko_pt
Thanks for the answer
And I must say I had evan phones wich were missing evan what we have right now with this honor 8
Couse this phone has some software support but its slow like for the ota updates
But had some cheaper phones from like LG wich were stuck at what came out of the box and that was it.. but then I had some phones like Samsung A5 2016 wich are the same price but are not evan close to this phone with its premium build and better support and for the same price evan better benchmarks.. so that is also for A5 2017 where you pay just the overpriced Samsung name..
So yes, it indeed is in some kind of price to value sweet spot..and I would recommend it evan now after one year.. so evan this year of 2017 it is a good phone to buy... Like an flagship for the midrange class
francesco_mnz said:
Hi everyone,
My Xperia Z3 which I love is unfortunately dying and I need to replace it.
I'm buying either Honor 8 or Redmi Note 4 (if I decide to save some money - and also I like the big screen).
So, my question is: is Honor 8 still worth buying now around 320-330€? Is it worth double the price of the Note 4? I know it has no custom rom support, but:
-will it get Android O?
-how's the display in sunlight?
-how's the battery?
If the answer of all these questions is meh, I'll go with Redmi Note 4.
Thanks to everyone who will reply!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just upgraded from the Z3 compact, and although the large format is hard to handle with one hand, mostly everything else about the phone is a huge step up from the Z3 series. The Honor's camera is very sharp with greater detail than the Z3 and at nearly half the price, it's hard to beat for the money. Like any phone in this price range, it's not perfect, but it's flaws are outweighed by it's value.
It doesn't hold charge while sleeping the way Sony does, but it sips battery while in use like a tiny bird. I easily get 6-7hrs of screen on time where I couldn't get more than 4 with the Z3C.
The single speaker is louder than the dual Sony speakers but won't win any awards for sound quality.
And though it has its quirks, EMUI is way more customizable than Sony ever could be, and I'm not talking about silly themes.
Finally, nothing beats this fingerprint reader.
Go for it! The Honor 9 might be better, but there's always something new coming out. If you really want to upgrade again, sell the Honor 8.
francesco_mnz said:
Hi everyone,
-will it get Android O?
-how's the display in sunlight?
-how's the battery?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honor 6 was released with android 4 and later updated to 5.x and then to 6.0.x, if we are lucky, probably honor 8 will get O as well.
Display and battery are good.
Thanks to everyone. I don't know why, but the Honor 8 price is rising instead of dropping:/ a couple of months ago I could get it for more or less 320€, now it's like 345€:/
I'm in a very similar situation since I got my Honor 8 to replace a dying Sony Z2.
I really liked my Z2, and even being as old as it was, there is no phone out there that I would have voluntarily given up my Z2 for.
That said, I am happy with my H8, and I am not looking back.
In their times, the Z2 and Z3 were both high-end phones. I would call the H8 a mid-range phone.
If you are willing to spend upwards of US$500, then there are better phones out there -- Sony XZ, Huawei P9 Pro... etc.
Like a previous post said, the H8 does not have stereo speakers, but the sound from the single speaker at the bottom is better than my Z2 was. The Z2 had a specific problem with the speaker phone being low... I can now actually use my speaker phone.
The H8 also lacks the water proof feature of the high-end Sony's. While I never immersed my Z2, it seemed to die of something that could have been moisture intrusion.
Point is that I really do not miss either of those features in daily use.
Sony was excellent with updates. Only a Nexus device (or Pixel, or whatever) could have been better. I am hoping that Huawei supports this phone for a while, but I would have to say that IMHO expecting them to be as good as Sony was in this respect is not a reasonable expectation. Notice also that I said ..."as good as Sony was". Sony seems to be shrinking in the market, so going forward, they may not be as good as they were.
Camera: My Sony would shoot 4K video --- for about 30 seconds before it would either produce an file that ate all available storage, or it would over heat. I never used it. For anything other than comparing specs (anything practical) I think I can actually do more cool/impressive photography with the H8.
Speed: I have no speed complaints at all with the H8. I've never noticed a lag or anything happening at a speed that would even begin to cause frustration. Processor speed and cost caused the H8 to easily win out for me over the XZ.
Another thing that should not be ignored is Huawei's reputation for building better radios. With both this phone and an old Honor 2, I notice better signal (real, and number of bars) in fringe areas.
Lastly, the feel of the H8 must be mentioned. The feel/build quality/whatever you want to call it is better than any other phone in it's price class.
I agree with the other poster that said (as you mention -- especially in May of 2017) don't over pay for it. Today it should be viewed strictly as a mid-range daily use phone. Decide which range you are in and act/pay accordingly.
Sony have a great reputation for SW update. I've witness this. Z3C phone and tablet had update until 6.0.1, from a SD801. The only reason there is no oficial Nougat update is because Google doesn't want it to happen. But Z3C was beta for Nougat. I can't even remember how hold is my tablet but runs fantastic, zero bugs.
Now moving on to Huawei/Honor, Emui5.1 is coming out on new devices, not available on old.
P9 flagship is still Emui5. Not even mentioning 7.1.1 or latest security updates. When and if they're implemented, they're already outdated.
Honor7 got 1 OS version update and no Nougat. Not even the promised 2 year support.
If we take examples from other brands (OnePlus is also under fire due to false promises about software updates) software updates might be, if not are actually be, the number one thing users get disappointed.
There's definitely a trend amongst some manufacturers to drop support too soon for devices. Apple, very much bashed, is an example of OS support, which is sad.
I heard Honor US has promised to provide this region with two years of updated. Even if they don't, root.
Aside from being able to have exploits run that require root and breaking whatever OTAs we get It's unclear what the point of rooting would be on the Honor 8. There isn't much you can do unless I'm missing something.
Windvcloud said:
Recommend you consider the P10 lite
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Click to collapse
P10 lite instead of Honor 8?
P10 lite:
1. Micro USB
2. No IR
3. Kirin 658< Kirin 950
4. DDR3 RAM
5. Mali T830MP2 (40.8 GFlops)
Honor 8:
1. USB- C
2. IR blaster
3. Kirin 950> Kirin 658
4. DDR4 RAM for 4Gb version
5. Mali T840MP2 (122.4GFlops)
6. Fast battery charging
If you are concerned about constant update flagship phone are your best bet. Honor 8 is in a bad position because of it is a sub brand and has a smaller team you won't get update as often. However it is still a flagship of honor brand thus might qualify for 2 yr support. If you can buy it at the price of midrange phone like p10lite go ahead coz it's a capable phone you won't feel like it's a cheap phone performance wise come android O.
brljak83 said:
Hii @zinko_pt
Thanks for the answer
And I must say I had evan phones wich were missing evan what we have right now with this honor 8
Couse this phone has some software support but its slow like for the ota updates
But had some cheaper phones from like LG wich were stuck at what came out of the box and that was it.. but then I had some phones like Samsung A5 2016 wich are the same price but are not evan close to this phone with its premium build and better support and for the same price evan better benchmarks.. so that is also for A5 2017 where you pay just the overpriced Samsung name..
So yes, it indeed is in some kind of price to value sweet spot..and I would recommend it evan now after one year.. so evan this year of 2017 it is a good phone to buy... Like an flagship for the midrange class
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It all comes down to promises: if a brand makes a promise to support a device for 2 years and release the source code, and then disregard them, it makes untrustworthy. Simple.
---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------
Rommco05 said:
Huawei have allready implemented features from 7.1.1 they dont need this update (except security patch). P8lite rollout with EMUI 4.0 and after some time was updated to EMUI
4.1. Its true Honor and users was confused with Nougat updates, but now start (slowly) pushing realy good updates... In my opinion, one time push to our devices EMUI 5.1 and maybe Android O...
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Click to collapse
That "except" is the tricky part isn't it? It's security, something with you should roll your dices and see how it goes. We can discuss features but not so security. And Huawei/Honor is always way behind schedule to release security patches. Just not acceptable.

Watch 2 for $187, worth it?

knowing that the watch doesn't support simcard. is it worth it?
I read people complaining about lag... and google say that that this watch won't receive oreo ?
https://www.xda-developers.com/list-android-wear-android-oreo-update/
Tell me what you think, and your experience so far. and should i wait for new watch releases?
and how much does the watch last till recharging?
Thank you :good:
Totally worth it, specially for sports. And LTE for smartwatches is bit overrated. Afaik the battery only lasts a few hours on LTE.
ldmelo said:
Totally worth it, specially for sports. And LTE for smartwatches is bit overrated. Afaik the battery only lasts a few hours on LTE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
really?? so many people saying to me that smartwatches are boring and not quiet developed especially android watches. tho i do like the style and notifications and such
Also do you think i would ever find that cheap good watch ?
Of course there is a lot of space for improvements on android watches. And of course you can live without a smartwatch. But given the price you mentioned it would be an interesting purchase. I. mean... I was going to buy a garmin watch to track my runs and bike rides, but the Hw2 was actually cheaper and could do much more, so I decided to give it a shot (got an open box for 200usd). So far so good... On my 5k-10k runs it will play music offline, record my heart rate and my GPS track (distance, pace, etc). But there are also the the android wear things, like notifications, answering calls, watch faces, etc.
Worth it. Get it you'll use it more than you realise
Worth every cent. I absolutely love my HW 2 LTE. LTE only enabled when there is no BT or Wifi so from a battery perspective this is not an issue at all. I get a full day, often up to 36 hours out of my watch.
Worth it...but Best Buy has it for $179 right now.

What do you think of this youtuber's huawei rant.

https://youtu.be/uN1tNi3108Y
* brightness issue
* camera and quality
* marketing
* giving away free units to reviewers. This includes free travel and food in exchange for good review.
Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
Upset because he didn't get a free one maybe lol. In all seriousness though, I've had all the latest flagships over the last two years and the camera on this is the most enjoyable I have used second to none. It has its quirks but they all do, but the P20 pro in my opinion fits my needs more than any other phone currently on the market.
Not bothered whether Huawei pay reviewers in kind or not. I've made my own mind up.
How does clever marketing make them any worse than Samsung, Apple or any other manufacturer? Geez they all do it.
Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
It's no surprise is it? This has been going on forever. Just don't trust reviews.
I generally watch reviews for fun, as they are almost always positive about every phone.
I have never purchased a phone that doesn't have faults. Samsungs always have screen issues, Pixels always have some software bugs, Sony always have crap cameras.
Yet to read the reviews, they are all great.
Screen brightness bug is huaweis problem, but it should be fixable with update. Other than that, all of companies does it, let's say LG with it's g7 reviews, flew a lot of people to Korea and gave them 3 day holiday's for good reviews.
Case of sour grapes, what he rants about is done by all except maybe SONY but then again. The P20 Pro camera is unbeatable his rants aside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3jZIVNmGlQ
Jonathan-H said:
I generally watch reviews for fun, as they are almost always positive about every phone.
I have never purchased a phone that doesn't have faults. Samsungs always have screen issues, Pixels always have some software bugs, Sony always have crap cameras.
Yet to read the reviews, they are all great.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMO all the flagship phones are good now but given their complexity and the short 1-3 year life cycle they are designed to have, every one of them will always have some issues that never get fixed.

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