Related
This message is a summary of my previous messages. I hope that it will be useful. I wrote this to document what I found out about the Epic. I'm cheap, and I didn't want to buy ANOTHER charger for my car. I had a 3A, 2-port USB charger, and I was mad that my Epic was charging slowly. I managed to modify my charger to get it to perform just like the wall charger that came with my phone.
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Q: How much current does the Epic draw from a normal (bus-powered) USB port when charging?
A: 380mA.
Q: How much current does the Epic draw from the OEM 700mA wall charger when charging?
A: 600mA
Q: How much current does the Epic draw from a car charger or an aftermarket wall charger?
A: It depends...
If the charger has the two data pins (D+ and D-) shorted, the Epic will attempt to draw 600mA. Otherwise, it will draw 380mA.
Q: How can I tell if my phone is charging at 380mA or 600mA?
A: Turn off USB debugging (Home Screen\Settings\Applications\Development\USB debugging).
If you plug into a 380mA source (D+ and D- not shorted), you get a "Charging/Mass Storage/Tethered Mode" popup when you unlock your phone.
If you plug into a 600mA source (D+ and D- shorted), you do not get a popup.
Q: I have a 1A micro USB charger from another phone. Can I use it to charge the Epic?
A: Yes, but you won't get it to charge any faster than the 700mA OEM wall charger. The phone will only draw 600mA at most, regardless of how many amps the charger can supply. (And that assumes that D+ and D- are shorted.)
Q: I have a Palm Pre wall charger. I've heard that it charges the phone faster than the Epic wall charger. Is this true?
A: No. The Palm Pre wall charger does not charge the phone any faster than normal. With my phone hooked up, I measured 590mA (600mA with cable loss). I also saw that the charger had D+ and D- shorted. It behaves exactly like the Epic's charger.
Q: Will these 1A chargers damage my phone?
A: As long as the charger is able to supply the necessary current without overheating, chargers from other phones will not damage the Epic. A charger may be rated for 3A, but the Epic controls how much current it draws.
If you buy a cheap charger, you run the risk of having the charger's chip burn up. Among other things, this could short the charger's input voltage (12V from a car) to the USB V+ line and fry your phone.
Q: I have a USB charger that seems to charge my phone slooooowly. What can I do?
A: Your charger is probably supplying 380mA (or worse). You have a few options:
NOTE: Before doing any of this, make sure that your charger is rated at 700mA or greater. If you have an unmarked charger, chances are that it will not be able to supply 700mA out of the box. Many car charger (such as those for the Nintendo DS) have built-in current limiters that prevent the device from drawing too much current.
1. Modify Your Charger: Open up the charger and look to see if D+ and D- are shorted. (They are the two middle pins on the standard size USB plug.) Modify your charger so that it shorts D+ and D-, and remove any pull-up or pull-down resistors that connect D+ and/or D- to power or ground.
2. Modify A Cable: Slice open a spare micro USB cable (or the cable from your charger), being careful not to damage the red or black wires. Cut the green and white wires (D+ and D-). Strip off a little bit of the insulation from the green and white wires that lead to the micro USB connector. Twist these wires together and wrap in electrical tape.
NOTE: This will prevent the cable from being used as a USB data transfer cable.
3. Buy a USB Charging Cable: Look for a special USB charging cable that already has D+ and D- shorted.
Q: If I buy or make a charging cable, can I get 600mA from a normal (bus-powered) USB port?
A: It depends. The USB spec says that a port can only supply 500mA max. There is usually an overcurrent monitor built into the port that will prevent an overcurrent condition. The OS will pop up a message telling you that you've exceeded the current sourcing capacity of the port.
There are some laptops, however that have ports that allow you to violate the USB spec and draw up to 1A from a port.
Use caution when experimenting.
Q: Can you tell how much current the device draws from the device?
A: No. You CAN, however, get a battery graphing app like Battery Graph.
http://www.appbrain.com/app/battery-...odroid.battery
If you set the monitoring interval to 1 minute and start charging your phone (which should be low on charge) with the wall charger, you'll see a battery curve. You can then repeat this process with your alternate charging method. If you compare the slopes of the charging curves, you'll be able to tell if your alternate charging method is performing the same as your wall charger.
It's not as quick as using a DMM, but it works. It's how I initially saw I was having a problem.
Q: How can you tell if your USB cable has D+/D- shorted?
A: 99% of all cables will not have the lines shorted. You have to buy a "charging cable". But if you are in doubt as to what cable is what, plug it into a PC's USB port. Either the PC will detect the device (not shorted), or you'll trip the USB port's overcurrent mode (shorted).
Or... You can buy a DMM and check the resistance between D+ and D-.
- N
Is there a way to display on the Epic how much current it is drawing? Or some other way to tell if the cable being used is D+/D- shorted?
Thank you. Very helpful.
jasonsf said:
Is there a way to display on the Epic how much current it is drawing? Or some other way to tell if the cable being used is D+/D- shorted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good questions!
Q: Can you tell how much current the device draws from the device?
A: No. You CAN, however, get a battery graphing app like Battery Graph.
http://www.appbrain.com/app/battery-graph/com.modroid.battery
If you set the monitoring interval to 1 minute and start charging your phone (which should be low on charge) with the wall charger, you'll see a battery curve. You can then repeat this process with your alternate charging method. If you compare the slopes of the charging curves, you'll be able to tell if your alternate charging method is performing the same as your wall charger.
It's not as quick as using a DMM, but it works. It's how I initially saw I was having a problem.
Q: How can you tell if your USB cable has D+/D- shorted?
A: 99% of all cables will not have the lines shorted. You have to buy a "charging cable". But if you are in doubt as to what cable is what, plug it into a PC's USB port. Either the PC will detect the device (not shorted), or you'll trip the USB port's overcurrent mode (shorted).
Or... You can buy a DMM and check the resistance between D+ and D-.
Awesome! Thanks for the info!
Oh, one more thing. Are you saying that the wall charger shorts D+ and D- at the plug? So any cable is essentially shorted when using the wall charger?
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
jasonsf said:
Awesome! Thanks for the info!
Oh, one more thing. Are you saying that the wall charger shorts D+ and D- at the plug? So any cable is essentially shorted when using the wall charger?
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are correct.
For the Epic, the wall charger shorts D+ and D- together.
For wall or car chargers that have a non-removable cable, 99% of the time the short will be inside the charger and NOT in the cable.
Every computer I've used gladly lets me draw 1A without complaints. My old TP was hacked to draw 1A and nothing complained. Didn't even damage the cheapest of the cheap ebay chargers.
Firon said:
Every computer I've used gladly lets me draw 1A without complaints. My old TP was hacked to draw 1A and nothing complained. Didn't even damage the cheapest of the cheap ebay chargers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
YMMV. My netbook prevents me from drawing more than 500mA per port.
It all depends on how the USB port circuit is laid out. In the designs I've seen, there's usually a power distribution switch (PDS) in-line with the port that provides overcurrent protection. When that switch trips, it sends a bit to the hub chip that tells the hub that the port is in overcurrent state. (The PDS's secondary function is short-circuit protection. If you stick a car key in your USB port, your computer won't blow up.)
PDS's come in different current cutoff steps, so it is up to the PC manufacturer to choose the right one.
If your PC can't supply the 600mA on a single port to charge the phone, buy one of those USB power splitter cables that lets you draw from 2 ports at once.
I have found that if you plug in the phone and the options for charging, mass storage and tethering pop up, then you are only charging at 380mA. If nothing pops up then you are most likely charging at 600mA.
muyoso said:
I have found that if you plug in the phone and the options for charging, mass storage and tethering pop up, then you are only charging at 380mA. If nothing pops up then you are most likely charging at 600mA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ding! You are correct. I never noticed because you don't get prompted AT ALL if you have USB debugging turned on.
This is a little off topic. Does the usb cable initiate Dock Mode? I know some other phones use magnets in the dock, but I think I read that the Galaxy S phones detect the car or home dock via the USB cable. Did you discover a mechanism for this in your usb research?
jasonsf said:
This is a little off topic. Does the usb cable initiate Dock Mode? I know some other phones use magnets in the dock, but I think I read that the Galaxy S phones detect the car or home dock via the USB cable. Did you discover a mechanism for this in your usb research?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No... I didn't find anything. Maybe I'll "rent" a dock from the Sprint store and find out.
Very nice write up. Answered all the questions I had about the slow charging of this phone. Thanks again.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
I am getting substantially faster charges with a 1amp charger than the oem 700, it looks like it is using close to the 1000 ma on some chargers.
aero1 said:
I am getting substantially faster charges with a 1amp charger than the oem 700, it looks like it is using close to the 1000 ma on some chargers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll have to pay attention to mine. I started using the 1 amp charger that came with my Touch Pro. I charge it overnight so I don't pay attention to how fast it is charging, but I'll see if I can notice tonight.
aero1 said:
I am getting substantially faster charges with a 1amp charger than the oem 700, it looks like it is using close to the 1000 ma on some chargers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which chargers? I'll be happy to try any charger that you recommend.
I haven't tested charging by timing the charges, but I have installed a widget that tells me an approximate charge rate called currentwidget, and it gives me the EXACT same values for a 700 ma charger or a 1000 ma charger. Unless this widget is just straight up lying, the phone won't charge any faster than a 700 ma charger no matter how large of a charger you throw at it.
IBNobody said:
2. Modify A Cable: Slice open a spare micro USB cable (or the cable from your charger), being careful not to damage the red or black wires. Cut the green and white wires (D+ and D-). Strip off a little bit of the insulation from the green and white wires that lead to the micro USB connector. Twist these wires together and wrap in electrical tape.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was going to suggest just taping over the data pins in the USB connector (obviously, the regular, non-micro end), but I just tried it and it still popped up the Charging/Mass Storage/Tether, though selecting Mass Storage doesn't work -- the device is not detected by the computer for obvious reasons. I've been using this trick for a while for my mp3 player and my Hero at work and was surprised that it didn't work.
reauxgg said:
I was going to suggest just taping over the data pins in the USB connector (obviously, the regular, non-micro end), but I just tried it and it still popped up the Charging/Mass Storage/Tether, though selecting Mass Storage doesn't work -- the device is not detected by the computer for obvious reasons. I've been using this trick for a while for my mp3 player and my Hero at work and was surprised that it didn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you need to short those pins together. If you leave them open, it won't go into high-current charge mode.
Those other devices may have had D+ and D- connected across a termination resistor. Putting tape on the pins would have worked then.
IBNobody- I was wondering if you could explain this one- when I plug my epic into the usb port of the cheap charger that came with 2 batteries off of ebay (see here) my epic seems to freeze and the touch screen becomes unresponsive- the charger states it puts out 5.2V 800ma
Could it be that the phone is trying to figure out if its being plugged into a computer vs a simple charger?
Sidekick 4g will not charge via wall, but does charge very slow on usb. I tried different wall chargers except the "official" wall charger, even a samsung branded usb detachable wall charger, but it still keeps doing in and out with a beep sound and doesn't charge. Am I missing something??? Please help, this issue is extremely aggravating especially when you use your phone for business. X(
I am on the final smooth maximus rom btw.
Well in my experiance with samsung phones and even some htc modles you have to use an offically branded charger for your modle sometimes, it has to do with the pins and how they line up, now if you use the usb cored and a travle wall charger (I use this set up in my truck for work) you should see a faster charge time cause the voltage is higher and its the right pin set
Sent from my SGH-T839 using XDA App
The connector is an industry standard. There's no problem with the pins not lining up. There's also no difference in voltage between chargers. Being USB, it has to be 5v.
However, some chargers have higher capacity than others. The USB spec allows for 500mA from a PC's USB port, but chargers sometimes increase it to a full amp for faster charging. The phones will still charge from a PC's USB port, but they'll take longer.
Also, some companies (Like Motorola) require a special Motorola-branded charger. It's just because they want to sell more chargers. The only difference between a real Motorola one and a generic one is a resistor between two pins to identify it to the phone.
The Sidekick doesn't have this vendor lock-in crap. It'll charge from just about anything you can plug it into. If it's not charging I'd suspect a broken USB connector on the phone, a faulty battery, or a damaged charging circuit inside the phone.
Jax184 said:
The connector is an industry standard. There's no problem with the pins not lining up. There's also no difference in voltage between chargers. Being USB, it has to be 5v.
However, some chargers have higher capacity than others. The USB spec allows for 500mA from a PC's USB port, but chargers sometimes increase it to a full amp for faster charging. The phones will still charge from a PC's USB port, but they'll take longer.
Also, some companies (Like Motorola) require a special Motorola-branded charger. It's just because they want to sell more chargers. The only difference between a real Motorola one and a generic one is a resistor between two pins to identify it to the phone.
The Sidekick doesn't have this vendor lock-in crap. It'll charge from just about anything you can plug it into. If it's not charging I'd suspect a broken USB connector on the phone, a faulty battery, or a damaged charging circuit inside the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the response guys.. Yeah, this stuff is pretty weird.. it would blow if the port is messed up. The phone is brand new though, would they be manufactured faulty?? In that case samsung tech department sucks!
When you make a million of something, statistics say that a few mistakes will happen. If it's new I'd suggest taking it back. I charge my Sidekick off of my PC's USB port and am often surprised by how quickly it charges.
Jax184 said:
When you make a million of something, statistics say that a few mistakes will happen. If it's new I'd suggest taking it back. I charge my Sidekick off of my PC's USB port and am often surprised by how quickly it charges.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol. I see. See, the thing is now its charging fine after a certain %. My guess is the battery is faulty then...
With the advent of the S4, and its higher capacity battery, one could understand a higher charging current. However, I seem to have uncovered some findings that the charging system on the S4 is a bit more complex than first thought!
This is a bit techy, and assumes you have a basic amount of electrical knowledge, ie voltages, currents, resistance etc., but I'll try and keep it as simple as possible for anyone who may not!
To explain: The mains charger supplied with the S4 is a model number ETA-U90UWE, rated 5V @ 2A. However, the phone will ONLY charge at full current (which as I have measured so far, depending on what the phone regulates it to, typically sits in the region of 1.2 - 1.5A), when using the supplied charger (or possibly one of equal or higher current rating, depending on how it's configured internally), AND the supplied usb cable, OR any other usb cable, provided its shielding (the metal outer surface of the connectors) is connected at BOTH ends of the cable. Use a cable that doesn't have this shielding, and the charge current drops, regardless of whether there is plenty of current available or not. Use a different charger with an unshielded cable and the current drops even more, again regardless of whether it can supply plenty more current.
My assumption on this, is possibly an effort by Samsung to avoid the scenario of sticking 1.5 amps down a flimsy cheapo cable, the wires of which will likely be too thin to carry it.
After doing some probing around with a meter, I have managed to find a slight difference with the charger itself, compared to a generic one. In a generic one, the two data pins are usually just shorted together, which tells most phones that it's a mains charger rather than a USB port. On the Samsung one on the other hand, the pins appear to be shorted together, and also connected via resistors across the supply line (known as a potential divider), which holds these shorted data pins at a certain voltage. This is what tells the phone what sort of charger it's connected to.
Attached are a couple of diagrams to show the difference between the two chargers. There are in fact various setups of resistors that different manufacturers use to set the charging current, so it's quite easy to run into compatibility issues!
To make this a little less confusing I have done some preliminary experimenting, and I set out my results here.
For the test, I used combinations of 4 different usb style mains chargers: an apple iPhone one rated at 1A, an iPad one rated 2.4A, an HTC 1A one, and the genuine S4 one. With these I used two cables - the supplied Samsung S4 one (which is shielded), and a cheap generic one (which isn't). I started by measured the charging current directly with a meter, by using a very short usb breakout lead I've made, enabling me to interrupt the 5V line. However, I soon noticed that the use of any extension cables, even shielded, can lessen the chance of maintaining a good shielding connection, so I continued the exercise relying on the "galaxy charging current" app to get a reading.
Charger.................... Cable................ Current (A)
=====================================
HTC 1A.................Generic..................... 0.5
HTC 1A.................Samsung S4..............1.0
Apple 1A...............Generic......................0.5
Apple 1A...............Samsung S4..............1.0
Apple 2.4A............Generic......................0.6
Apple 2.4A............Samsung S4..............1.3
Samsung S4.........Generic...................... 0.8
Samsung S4.........Samsung S4...............1.3
So as you can see from these results, the original charger makes a difference, and the supplied cable (or a good quality shielded one) makes a further difference. If you have any further findings please feel free to add them here.
I can see that this is going to confuse some people, as it has me, as I'm sure some will inevitably try charging up their phone on generic chargers/leads at some point, with potentially long charging times resulting!
.
Very nice findings! Thanks for sharing them.
Not only what you say about longer charging time, but also discharging may occur (it has with me) while connected to the USB. I left my phone with USB tethering and it shut itself down after a couple of hours (it was low on battery already). I wanted to keep all the accessories in "new condition" in case I sell the phone in a few months, but I guess this justifies using the official charger and usb lead.
I hope someone can shed some light on the detection mechanism or the particular characteristics of the official cable so it can be replicated in generic ones.
From your findings, also Appe 2,4A charger has some control on the cable used, thanks.
Yes, but you won't be able to get more than about 0.75A out of it even with the samsung s4 cable.
You could try to add an extension cable to check if the charging system needs exclusively an original samsung cable from the charger to the phone.
Original samsung charger => extension cable male/female => original samsung cable => phone
PS: is there an app to check the charging current?
My experiments used an extension cable, that's the one I made into a breakout cable. So no it doesn't change by adding a cable.
There is an app, called galaxy charging current, which I tried also. In the 0.75A results above it showed a max permissible current of 1000mA, with the fully samsung setup it showed 1900mA. In the lower scenarios is showed up as 460mA. Other than that it doesn't tell you anything, it literally just shows you a max possible current, not the actual current it's drawing.
I've found out what the issue was, my generic cable was obviously a cheap one and wasn't shielded! I have edited my original post to re-explain.
Also I did a further test on a PC usb port - the Samsung cable allowed for 500mA, but the unshielded cheap one only allowed about 350mA, so (as pintycar found out), the phone actually carries on discharging in this case!
Interesting post.
I've been trying to mod a car charger so that the s4 draws more than 300mA so far unsucessful. I'm going to add in the 82K resistance and see what happens.
demusss said:
Interesting post.
I've been trying to mod a car charger so that the s4 draws more than 300mA so far unsucessful. I'm going to add in the 82K resistance and see what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
Using a 5a digital bench power supply, I took a normal micro USB cable, cut it in two, added in the 82k resistors and tested.
Before: 450ma, after 1.73a
Then using a clamp meter I tested it with a 2amp Asus tablet charger - it varied between 1.48 and 1.61 amp.
I have since built a few more cables - one to use in my car (again 2 amp charger).
All in all, it works very effectively. Thanks for the initial research (saved me having to open my charger.)
BTW I suspect it is the charger where the resistors are, not the cable, otherwise the phone would try to pull 1.5a + from a laptop if you connected it.
Left my samsung cable at work so will test it tomorrow (if I remember)!
W.
Interesting. So basically for us laymen, you are telling us to use the original charger and cables to the extent possible ... right?
Can you clarify to me what an unshielded cable is? Maybe with a picture? I've got a blackberry's cable at work connected to my PC.
At home, I also have a cable and charger that I got with my Nexus S (I think this says Output 5.0V ~ 0.7A).
Would this be a problem or can I get by with these?
Thanks
I've been using the Samsung cable+charger+USB extension cable and charging the S4 usually takes about 4 hours, I'm going to try with just the Samsung cable next time and see if it makes any difference since people are saying that theirs can be fully charged within less than 3 hours.
Paparasee said:
Interesting. So basically for us laymen, you are telling us to use the original charger and cables to the extent possible ... right?
Can you clarify to me what an unshielded cable is? Maybe with a picture? I've got a blackberry's cable at work connected to my PC.
At home, I also have a cable and charger that I got with my Nexus S (I think this says Output 5.0V ~ 0.7A).
Would this be a problem or can I get by with these?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
I believe (guess work here ) that only the original charger "needs" a shielded cable - could be checked by shorting the ground and shield on one side and see if it works at the higher current - if I am bored I may do it - it probably checks the shield and limits the current if it is not there (note I have not tested this so only going by the first posters findings).
BTW a shielded cable has a wire mesh around the 4 internal cables - this mesh avoids external interference messing with the signals. Can't see it affecting the charging though BUT shielded cables tend to have thicker internal cables so could be related to this.
I have it charging at 1.7a on an unshielded cable (thought he power strands are thicker than average) Shielding should only affect the data transfer speed, not the charging current.
If the Nexus S has only a 700mah charger then this will not be able to provide enough current for high speed charging and could easily burn out - nice smell, dead charger, not much else. therefore only use a normal unmodified usb cable (and it will charge at about 450mah).
W.
all this would eexplian why the charger that camewith my S2 dosen't appear to charge my phone fully over night...
For what it's worth I'm charging with a Note 1 charger...a thick shielded cable via the S3 docking station....and getting 900mah...
will get my original cable tonight and have a go tomorrow...
interesting read, my s4 lead and charger are still in the box and I'm using my nexus 10 ones phone charged from about 30% to full in just over 2. may have to change the old HTC £2 lead I've got connected to my works pc then, maybe why it's struggling to charge when playing music. guess this is one way to get people to buy more expensive cables
Very interesting read, thanks TS.
My original charger and cable set is still in the box; I've been using my Mom's old Galaxy Note charger.
I'll try the original cable + wall mount and see how fast it is compared to my current charger.
wmccann2 said:
Using a 5a digital bench power supply, I took a normal micro USB cable, cut it in two, added in the 82k resistors and tested.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you show me your final cable with a pic? Thanks
After this thread I have stopped using my blackberry bold cable to charge s4 and of course the cheap one too.. thanks op!
Sent from my GT-I9500 using xda app-developers app
I'm not sure if shielded vs. unshielded is the difference - probably wire gauge is the difference.
For example, if you shop at Monoprice, you have two options for USB cables: 28 gauge cables, and 24/28 gauge cables.
For wire gauge, lower is larger - the 24/28 gauge cables have thicker wires for the + and GND lines. A pure 28 gauge cable is likely to drop voltage a bit at high currents, and my observations have been that most newer devices, ESPECIALLY Qualcomm-based ones, are VERY finicky when it comes to input voltage drops.
As to the charger itself:
Apple chargers are almost guaranteed not to charge at full current, as they don't conform at all to the USB battery charging standard. Some newer Android devices do have at least partial detection of Apple chargers, so they may charge at 1A if an Apple charger is detected (any Apple charge, even 2.1A ones).
It sounds like the included official charger is a tablet-compatible one. Samsung tablets expect D+ and D- to be held by the charger at 1.2 or 1.8 volts (I forget which). As a result, Samsung tablets will not charge from standard chargers (like an N7 charger), but standard devices (like an N7) will charge from Samsung tablet chargers.
Now, the question is: Does the GS4 *require* a Samsung tablet-style charger, or did Samsung just include a tablet-style charger because it's backwards-compatible with standard devices? (less part numbers to track in inventory).
A useful pair of points would be: Using the same cable, does the Samsung charger behave significantly different from a Nexus 7 charger?
wmccann2 said:
Hi,
Using a 5a digital bench power supply, I took a normal micro USB cable, cut it in two, added in the 82k resistors and tested.
Before: 450ma, after 1.73a
Then using a clamp meter I tested it with a 2amp Asus tablet charger - it varied between 1.48 and 1.61 amp.
I have since built a few more cables - one to use in my car (again 2 amp charger).
All in all, it works very effectively. Thanks for the initial research (saved me having to open my charger.)
BTW I suspect it is the charger where the resistors are, not the cable, otherwise the phone would try to pull 1.5a + from a laptop if you connected it.
Left my samsung cable at work so will test it tomorrow (if I remember)!
W.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I missed this post on my first read-through: What happens if you just short D+ and D- when using the bench supply?
Considering how screwed up the 5V3A situation is, I decided to jump off that bus and order some regular, high quality, low price, 2.4A (per port) Aukey chargers that can be used with cheap ass cables that no one wants. They will be Type A to Type C so other phones and tablets can use them. And no QC 2.0 because they are about 1/2 the price and if QC 2.0 or 3.0 becomes an issue with other devices in my house, I will buy new ones. The car charger is $12.99 (They sell a bigger one for $6.99) on Amazon and the wall one is $7.99. Google's massive FUBAR solved!
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Yep don't know what half the smartphone world is on about with all this 3A rubbish.
How many people charge their phone over night - MOST
How many people are truly upset and really feel annoyed that their device is not charging at 3A to the point where they will go out their way to get 3A everything.
Chances are alot of these people come from using 1.2A chargers or turbo chargers or QI charging - did you see them whine about how slow it was back in those non 3A days ? not many
its just the utterly butt hurt whiners and those who suck the exlixer from googles every word andneed 3A leads / chargers.
if you charge over night a 1A or a 1.2A or a 2A or QI wont make any difference when you wake up in the morning.
A have a 3A from the phones box and a turbo charger and "normal" chargers from older phones and a 2.4A car charger and it charges plenty fast enough.
for those who wish to tell me that the turbo charger wont work with fast charge go do one, I plug it in and it charges fast enough for me to not cry all over the internet simply beacuse some google pixel dude is reviewing usb leads and mine is not one yadda yadda.
Isn't the problem with cheapass (USB-C) cables is that they pull more power than the adapter can push? and possibly fry it?
hutzdani said:
Yep don't know what half the smartphone world is on about with all this 3A rubbish.
How many people charge their phone over night - MOST
How many people are truly upset and really feel annoyed that their device is not charging at 3A to the point where they will go out their way to get 3A everything.
Chances are alot of these people come from using 1.2A chargers or turbo chargers or QI charging - did you see them whine about how slow it was back in those non 3A days ? not many
its just the utterly butt hurt whiners and those who suck the exlixer from googles every word andneed 3A leads / chargers.
if you charge over night a 1A or a 1.2A or a 2A or QI wont make any difference when you wake up in the morning.
A have a 3A from the phones box and a turbo charger and "normal" chargers from older phones and a 2.4A car charger and it charges plenty fast enough.
for those who wish to tell me that the turbo charger wont work with fast charge go do one, I plug it in and it charges fast enough for me to not cry all over the internet simply beacuse some google pixel dude is reviewing usb leads and mine is not one yadda yadda.
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Neat.
catire said:
Isn't the problem with cheapass (USB-C) cables is that they pull more power than the adapter can push? and possibly fry it?
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That is also my understanding. People can use any charging brick they prefer as long as they are using quality type A to type C cables that are designed to spec.
jTink010 said:
People can use any charging brick they prefer as long as they are using quality type A to type C cables that are designed to spec.
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Exactly. Thank you.
catire said:
Isn't the problem with cheapass (USB-C) cables is that they pull more power than the adapter can push? and possibly fry it?
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Both the phone and these chargers have over-current and thermal protection in the device circuits. Hence, the chargers won't try to provide more current than it can reliably deliver. No worries!
dwswager said:
Both the phone and these chargers have over-current and thermal protection in the device circuits. Hence, the chargers won't try to provide more current than it can reliably deliver. No worries!
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I think what they are trying to say is, the problem is not on the charger itself, but on the cheap/wrongly spec'ed cables. If you had a bad cable which tries to pull 3A from any USB-A charger (which supports up to 2.4A), it would fry the charger.
ctbear said:
I think what they are trying to say is, the problem is not on the charger itself, but on the cheap/wrongly spec'ed cables. If you had a bad cable which tries to pull 3A from any USB-A charger (which supports up to 2.4A), it would fry the charger.
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The issue is that the phone will think it can pull 3A because the cable design and the charger will try to deliver and will over heat and burn out. But the phone should have under-voltage lockout and the charger has both over-current and over temperature protection.
dwswager said:
The issue is that the phone will think it can pull 3A because the cable design and the charger will try to deliver and will over heat and burn out. But the phone should have under-voltage lockout and the charger has both over-current and over temperature protection.
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...which is not even needed on a 3A charger because it supports the 3A current pull. By switching to another charger and lowering the maximum current output, you are actually increasing the risk of a fire, because now your faulty cable will try to pull 3A (when it shouldn't) from a 2.4A charger.
ctbear said:
......you are actually increasing the risk of a fire, because now your faulty cable will try to pull 3A (when it shouldn't) from a 2.4A charger.
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Repeat after me, a cable represents an open circuit to the charger and draws no current. The phone is the load. The cable presents resistance to the flow of current.
Lightning deal
well reading more, 2.1a and 1.0a
dwswager said:
Repeat after me, a cable represents an open circuit to the charger and draws no current. The phone is the load. The cable presents resistance to the flow of current.
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Except that a usb cable is more than just a conducting wire. There is a lot more information the phone requires before it "negotiates" how much current it should draw from the power source. The reason why this even makes the news is that some cables (with a USB-A end) uses a much lower resistor pullup value that expected in the USB specifications, which leads the phone to believe that the other end is capable of producing the 3A current (according to USB-C specs). This has been reported numerous times by different articles and mentioned by the Google engineer himself, and can be found in the actual USB-C specification document. If you don't believe me, at least read his reviews on Amazon. He certainly knows and explains a lot better than I do.
The Amazon basics car charger that I already have adds juice to the phone while Waze is running. Good enough for me. I don't charge my phone overnight, I just charge it when I get up before I leave for work. Leave with 100% battery every day
dwertz said:
well reading more, 2.1a and 1.0a
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Without a link, I would suspect this is a standard dual port charger with one port 2.1A and the other 1A!
ctbear said:
Except that a usb cable is more than just a conducting wire. There is a lot more information the phone requires before it "negotiates" how much current it should draw from the power source. The reason why this even makes the news is that some cables (with a USB-A end) uses a much lower resistor pullup value that expected in the USB specifications, which leads the phone to believe that the other end is capable of producing the 3A current (according to USB-C specs). This has been reported numerous times by different articles and mentioned by the Google engineer himself, and can be found in the actual USB-C specification document. If you don't believe me, at least read his reviews on Amazon. He certainly knows and explains a lot better than I do.
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Don't get me wrong, any cable should be designed to USB specifications. But so should the devices! The Fundamental problem is 5V/3A. Google apparently designed the phone around the connector spec instead of the USB 2.0 specification. 3A is the design requirement in USB Type C spec for what a standard cable must be able to handle, not a USB power specification. Look around and count the number of 5V/3A USB devices you find. I can only think of one...a specific Asus Transformer model that came with a captive 5V/3A charger with a Micro USB connector and warning labels not to plug it into any other USB devices. Even so, the Transformer did port detection so it wouldn't try to over draw from compliant source ports.
The BC1.2 (Battery Charging Spec) outlines three distinct types of USB port and two key monikers. A "charging" port is one that delivers currents higher than 500mA. A "downstream" port signals data as per USB 2.0. The BC1.2 specification also establishes both how each port should appear to the end device, and the protocol to identify what type of port is implemented. The three USB BC1.2 port types are SDP, DCP, and CDP:
1. Standard Downstream Port (SDP) This port features 15kΩ pulldown resistors on both the D+ and D- lines. The current limits are : 2.5mA when suspended, 100mA when connected, and 500mA when connected and configured for higher power.
2. Dedicated Charging Port (DCP) This port does not support any data transfer, but is capable of supplying charge currents beyond 1.5A. It features a short between the D+ and D- lines. This type of port allows for wall chargers and car chargers with high-charge capability without the need for enumeration.
3. Charging Downstream Port (CDP) This port allows for both high-current charging and data transfer fully compliant with USB 2.0. It features the 15kΩ pulldown resistors necessary for the D+ and D- communication, and also has internal circuitry that is switched in during the charger detection phase. This internal circuitry allows the portable device to distinguish a CDP from other port types.
Bottom line - if this phone is of such poor design that it starts fires, what will the common element of all those fires end up being? The Phone!
dwswager said:
Don't get me wrong, any cable should be designed to USB specifications. But so should the devices! The Fundamental problem is 5V/3A. Google apparently designed the phone around the connector spec instead of the USB 2.0 specification. 3A is the design requirement in USB Type C spec for what a standard cable must be able to handle, not a USB power specification. Look around and count the number of 5V/3A USB devices you find. I can only think of one...a specific Asus Transformer model that came with a captive 5V/3A charger with a Micro USB connector and warning labels not to plug it into any other USB devices. Even so, the Transformer did port detection so it wouldn't try to over draw from compliant source ports.
The BC1.2 (Battery Charging Spec) outlines three distinct types of USB port and two key monikers. A "charging" port is one that delivers currents higher than 500mA. A "downstream" port signals data as per USB 2.0. The BC1.2 specification also establishes both how each port should appear to the end device, and the protocol to identify what type of port is implemented. The three USB BC1.2 port types are SDP, DCP, and CDP:
1. Standard Downstream Port (SDP) This port features 15kΩ pulldown resistors on both the D+ and D- lines. The current limits are : 2.5mA when suspended, 100mA when connected, and 500mA when connected and configured for higher power.
2. Dedicated Charging Port (DCP) This port does not support any data transfer, but is capable of supplying charge currents beyond 1.5A. It features a short between the D+ and D- lines. This type of port allows for wall chargers and car chargers with high-charge capability without the need for enumeration.
3. Charging Downstream Port (CDP) This port allows for both high-current charging and data transfer fully compliant with USB 2.0. It features the 15kΩ pulldown resistors necessary for the D+ and D- communication, and also has internal circuitry that is switched in during the charger detection phase. This internal circuitry allows the portable device to distinguish a CDP from other port types.
Bottom line - if this phone is of such poor design that it starts fires, what will the common element of all those fires end up being? The Phone!
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Actually no. The phone is compliant with the USB-C spec, which allows for considerably more than 3W (See: the Apple Macbook USB-C charger, the Chromebook Pixel USB-C charger and so on.) If you are using a C->C cable, with a compliant C charger, there should be no issue. The issue comes into play with a C->A cable which is not compliant, which causes the phone to think it's got a C connection and thus try to draw more power (3W) than the power supply can put out (effectively, it shorts out the power supply.) This can smoke the power supply. Literally.
Solution: (a) Use only C->C charging (this is your best bet, since it is the fastest) or (b) use a compliant C->A cable with any USB A charger. The phone will then negotiate an appropriate charging rate, either very slow (straight USB) or BC 1.2 (if available) which will still be slower than C->C.
Personally, I'd just stick with C->C and not worry much about the cable, *except* if you are using a C->A cable for data purposes, in which case, choose that cable wisely or risk frying your USB port.
I personally will be getting this http://goo.gl/CXIaHi to replace my car charger and possibly a second home charger. Along with getting a Type C - C cable from Google to eliminate any cable concerns. If you stick with Type c-c cables for charging you will be more than fine. I don't plan on charging my 6p using a Type A - C cable ever anyways.
Specifications:
Input (Micro): 5V/9V/12V 2A Max
Input (Type-C): 5V/3A Max
USB Output: 5V/ 2.4A
Type-C Output: 5V/3A Max
QC 2.0 Output: 5V/2.4A, 9V/1.5A, 12V/1.2A Max
dwswager said:
Bottom line - if this phone is of such poor design that it starts fires, what will the common element of all those fires end up being? The Phone!
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Yes, because that's what a company like google willingly intends to do. Provide a phone that is capable of burning down houses and cars and entering into massive lawsuits in the process...because that's smart business.
It seems to me that companies are just inaccurately advertising to make a quick buck out the gate. They know that they can seriously capitalize on a situation when newer technology is involved. Doesnt that seem a little more feasible? Most consumers read reviews and only care the cable has proper connectors, a decent length, and doesnt feel thin and cheap. Most consumers dont realize how much more goes into cables as you can tell by 98% of the reviews.
At this point I'm just waiting for Google to get more cables in stock in the Play Store because the price is the just about the same as all these off brand cables and I feel they should work better since they make the damn phone.
ctbear said:
Except that a usb cable is more than just a conducting wire. There is a lot more information the phone requires before it "negotiates" how much current it should draw from the power source. The reason why this even makes the news is that some cables (with a USB-A end) uses a much lower resistor pullup value that expected in the USB specifications, which leads the phone to believe that the other end is capable of producing the 3A current (according to USB-C specs). This has been reported numerous times by different articles and mentioned by the Google engineer himself, and can be found in the actual USB-C specification document. If you don't believe me, at least read his reviews on Amazon. He certainly knows and explains a lot better than I do.
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I'd be interested in reading his reviews, do you have a link?
DebauchedSloth said:
Actually no. The phone is compliant with the USB-C spec, which allows for considerably more than 3W (See: the Apple Macbook USB-C charger, the Chromebook Pixel USB-C charger and so on.) .
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BINGO...and that is the fail! The Type C Spec is not a power spec, it is for the design of the connectors and cables which happen to carry power! You do not design a device around the specification for a 20 cent piece of metal. You design the device around the USB 2.0, 3.0 or 3.1 specification so it is interoperable with connected devices and when you decide to use a Type C connector, that spec also gets added to your design requirements. It does not replace the USB 2.0 specification which includes Battery Charging and USB Power Delivery.
BC1.2 requires comparing D- to Vdat-Ref at detection and then there are over and under voltage compliance allowing the PD to disconnect and renegotiate.
Under USB specifications, using a Type C connector you can deliver up to 100W. The Type C Spec is Item 34 in both the USB 2.0 and 3.0 specs. Point is, you don't get to pick and choose only what you want out of the larger spec and ignore the other applicable parts.
If a plethora of 5V/3A USB Type C products start appearing, then Google will have set a new standard. However, the Z5 and Lumia 950XL, both Type C, both are reported to support QC 2.0 which doesn't have a 3A capability. Even QC 3.0 doesn't support a 3A. It has voltage range from 3.6V to 20V in 200mV increments, but tops out at 2A.
I have a spare 65W laptop charger (USB PD with type-C connector) at work and as I'd like to sometimes charge two or three devices, I've been looking for a type-C charger with two or three outputs that could also take power from male USB type-C connector. Output needs are modest, nominal maximum would be 25W + 10W PD for my personal and work phones, a possible third device would be something low power, earphones or smartwatch.
Haven't found anything so far. Too radical? DIY ideas welcome too.
There are a plethora of USB-C PD chargers available on Amazon. Most have 2 ports. What exactly do you mean by "male" USB-C connector? All USB type C cables have female ends; the male connectors are on the devices themselves.
Most earbuds/smartwatches aren't fast charging capable, so you should be able to use a regular 2 amp USB port.
Would this work for you? Brand is questionable, I don't particularly trust off brand electronics on Amazon, but Anker's chargers all have 2 USB-C ports.
Hm, I thought male is universal for plug. Wikipedia seems to agree, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C for terminology.
To restate, I'm looking for a charger with two or three type-C outputs, at least two of them PD. And power in from type-C too. Not mains. I can try to draw a diagram if it's still unclear.