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[Q] HTC Senation S-Off after repairs

Hello,
I have maybe a stupid newb question. I've been searching around for an answer but with no luck.
My problem is as follow:
I've been using HTC Sensation for half a year now, with custom roms / rooted / SuperCID. So I'm not new to flashing stuff.
Somehow I managed to brick my device before (due to stupid flashing decisions). So I flashed a random EU RUU and send my phone for repairs (via insurance services). They "repaired" my phone. I'm not sure if I got a new one or they really repaired it? (IMEI changed but S/N is still the same)
Today I got my HTC Sensation back. I was very happy and started to check the phone. It appears the bootloader is locked and S-ON. (CID back to T-MO003)
So I tried to S-OFF using revolutionary.io , to bad without luck...
I started searching what might be the problem read something about downgrading and revolutionary works... got a bit confused about all the different posts around.
What is the correct way to get S-OFF, custom recovery, and so on... back on my phone?
Bootloader info:
Locked
S-ON
HBOOT 1.18.0000
Aug 2 2011.22:35:52
Thanks for your time!
Hoping for a fix,
Opletium

?????
how much did you end up paying for repairs

Nothing haha, I was suprised about that!
normally my insurance company bills 30 euro as "own risk".
I've read the agreements of the insurance and saw that damage caused to the phone by falling on the ground was covered. My phone had some visable damage on the egdes.
So I told the insurance that i dropped my phone. And because it stopped working i tried to reinstall the sofware to factory defaults.
What I did is: I flashed a RUU and that caused the brick, because the touch panel stopped working.
They "fell" for it.. kinda

ok tried to follow this guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=21922297#post21922297
problem, cant get my bootloader unlocked. HTCdev's unlock fails.
Error i get:
C:\bootloader_unlock>fastboot flash unlocktoken Unlock_code.bin
sending 'unlocktoken' (0 KB)...
OKAY [ 0.140s]
writing 'unlocktoken'...
FAILED (remote: unlock token check failed)
finished. total time: 0.156s
File is in place, tried it multiple times and tried multiple tokens.. no clue on this!
Anyone that can help me to unlock and S-Off my device?

Did you try Revolutionary?

yes, I tried, but keeps failing aswel..
kinda start hating TMO for branding all their phones

This is the output of revolutionary
Enter beta key [ serial: HT17PV800204 ]: 47YUAhIWs2BusHJc
Beta key accepted - thank you for participating!
Zerging Root... this might take a minute or so.. Failed to get Root!
Press (almost) any key to exit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

is USB Debugging activated?

also have you got the drivers from HTC sync installed, but sync uninstalled, together with any other software that might attempt to sync with the phone?

USB debugging tried both enabled and disabled.
HTC drivers version 3.0.0.007 installed.
no other software on my laptop or PC that use my phone.
The thing that confuses me is that after repairs my IMEI number changed but my S/N stayed the same.
Guess they only replaced some hardware and not the total phone..
if that is the case then we should be aware that this HTC Sensation was S-OFF / rooted before.
When my touchpanel stopped working I flashed a RUU and locked bootloader and put the phone back to S-ON. I believe that I was on a lower version HBOOT while I send the phone back (before the phone went for repairs).

Try this
or try unlocking at HTC.

maumont said:
Try this
or try unlocking at HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC Unlock does not work!! I have explained that a few posts back.
I tried your link... after the command
adb shell /data/local/tmp/tacoroot --root
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my phone is bootlooping..

Ok did a factory reset via bootloader, now my phone works again.
but still no S-OFF..

The problem most likely is that you entered your details incorrectly at the HTC Dev site for unlocking your bootloader.
I don't think it checks the serial number to be genuine, I think as long as it follows a certain format it's accepted, so I would certainly check what you entered and try re-downloading the file from the Dev site. It's clearly NOT a driver issue, as CMD wouldn't even push the file to the phone if it was.
Hope this helps

Opletium said:
HTC Unlock does not work!! I have explained that a few posts back.
I tried your link... after the command
my phone is bootlooping..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Redo the taco root method. your phone will boot loop. don't restart and while bootlooping redo revolutionary. that worked for me. press the tanks button if it work for you .

khanem said:
Redo the taco root method. your phone will boot loop. don't restart and while bootlooping redo revolutionary. that worked for me. press the tanks button if it work for you .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doubt this will work for them, as Revolutionary won't work without an Unlocked Bootloader and this is where they are getting stuck.

Just had contact with HTC themself to ask why the htcdev.com method is not working for me.
They explained that T-Mobile NL put their software on my phone while I send it for repairs. they put their bootloader on my phone, first i was like WTF but then he started mumbling about update that htcdev-tool does not support yet.. after some more " doubt-talk". He asked some software versions and made a case he would put trough to the technical support.
Guess that explains the HTCDev problem?????
/edit: I have tried over 15 times on the htcdev.com method
if I understand jaaystott correctly then first you need to have an unlocked bootloader in order to use revolutionary to S-OFF??
Any otherway to unlock the bootloader, because this htc method will take some time..
As for:
Redo the taco root method. your phone will boot loop. don't restart and while bootlooping redo revolutionary. that worked for me. press the tanks button if it work for you .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
never tried it this way but I cant imagine that it would work since the bootloader is still locked.

Flash some other offical RUU, that should do it

jaaystott said:
Doubt this will work for them, as Revolutionary won't work without an Unlocked Bootloader and this is where they are getting stuck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Taco root will give revolutionary access to files he cannot modify before. In all cases he can try if it doesn't work he will have to unlock first with htcdev then redo the whole operation.

Opletium said:
Just had contact with HTC themself to ask why the htcdev.com method is not working for me.
They explained that T-Mobile NL put their software on my phone while I send it for repairs. they put their bootloader on my phone, first i was like WTF but then he started mumbling about update that htcdev-tool does not support yet.. after some more " doubt-talk". He asked some software versions and made a case he would put trough to the technical support.
Guess that explains the HTCDev problem?????
/edit: I have tried over 15 times on the htcdev.com method
if I understand jaaystott correctly then first you need to have an unlocked bootloader in order to use revolutionary to S-OFF??
Any otherway to unlock the bootloader, because this htc method will take some time..
As for:
never tried it this way but I cant imagine that it would work since the bootloader is still locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes thats correct. Until the Bootloader is Unlocked nothing can be installed other than apps from the Market
As for the problem, I highly doubt that it's T-Mobile's Bootloader, I mean surely loads of other people on OTA's would have had this issue.. surely somewhere someone has reverted to stock and then realized that this is the problem?
I think it's likely the change of IMEI might have done it, could be the wrong IMEI associated with that Serial Number and so it won't flash.

[Q] at&t Htc One x ruu update stuck on sending

Hello,
i got two Htc one x devices. i wanted to upgrade both to latest firmware 3.18
im outside of at&t so i am using RUU.
with one of the devices it works perfectly
with the other i got stuck in the sending screen
The device is on stock 1.85 firmware (4.0.3 android) , bootloader is "Locked" and S-ON
tried again the same via fastboot and again got stuck on sending
so i decided to root the device in order to flash it with OTA update
i tried two methods : using xFaction xploit which it failed when trying to execute "pwn" file
and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1644167 where it hangs on trying to push busybox
also it seems that adb sometimes think my phone is offline while it's on "charging only mode" and then i have to disconnect it and reconnect it
and it works fine when on "hard disk mode"
Any help is greatly appreciated
Thanks

kazabubu666 said:
Hello,
i got two Htc one x devices. i wanted to upgrade both to latest firmware 3.18
im outside of at&t so i am using RUU.
with one of the devices it works perfectly
with the other i got stuck in the sending screen
The device is on stock 1.85 firmware (4.0.3 android) , bootloader is "Locked" and S-ON
tried again the same via fastboot and again got stuck on sending
so i decided to root the device in order to flash it with OTA update
i tried two methods : using xFaction xploit which it failed when trying to execute "pwn" file
and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1644167 where it hangs on trying to push busybox
also it seems that adb sometimes think my phone is offline while it's on "charging only mode" and then i have to disconnect it and reconnect it
and it works fine when on "hard disk mode"
Any help is greatly appreciated
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1952426&highlight=hasoon

kazabubu666 said:
The device is on stock 1.85 firmware (4.0.3 android) , bootloader is "Locked" and S-ON
[snip]
i tried two methods : using xFaction xploit which it failed when trying to execute "pwn" file
and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1644167 where it hangs on trying to push busybox.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
FuzzyAcorns said:
Try this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1952426&highlight=hasoon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both of those methods are incorrect for 1.85. The first is for 1.73 and 1.82 only, the second is for 2.20. You want this one:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1709296

thank you all, i will try and let you know
btw, will my device stay sim unlocked after factory reset?

kazabubu666 said:
btw, will my device stay sim unlocked after factory reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of this has anything to do with sim unlocking. It won't affect it.

kazabubu666 said:
Hello,
i got two Htc one x devices. i wanted to upgrade both to latest firmware 3.18
im outside of at&t so i am using RUU.
with one of the devices it works perfectly
with the other i got stuck in the sending screen
The device is on stock 1.85 firmware (4.0.3 android) , bootloader is "Locked" and S-ON
tried again the same via fastboot and again got stuck on sending
so i decided to root the device in order to flash it with OTA update
i tried two methods : using xFaction xploit which it failed when trying to execute "pwn" file
and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1644167 where it hangs on trying to push busybox
also it seems that adb sometimes think my phone is offline while it's on "charging only mode" and then i have to disconnect it and reconnect it
and it works fine when on "hard disk mode"
Any help is greatly appreciated
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I had that issue I went to another PC and ran the RUU , it then went through

Palmetto_X said:
When I had that issue I went to another PC and ran the RUU , it then went through
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ran it from another computer, and it solved the problem!!!!!
thank you so much, can't believe how much time i have spent on this
and i had that thought crossing my mind, just thinking why would it be different since i managed to upgrade one of my devices
in that computer

For some reason I am still having this issue. I have tried on multiple computers to no avail! It generally gets past the bootloader stage and then goes back to "sending" and then fails out. I am currently running the latest Viper ROM. Any ideas?

Unlock bootloader/S-OFF HTC Sensation can't get it done!

Hey Folks,
This is my first post in the Sensation forums, i've been reading topics for a few days, but I didn't find any solution to my problem and i'm starting to get annoyed by it.
I've obtained a HTC Sensation a few days ago, and as with my previous devices (Galaxy Gio, Optimus Black) I wanted to flash a custom rom on it. I happened to unlock the bootloader of my friends Sensation few weeks earlier, so i thought this was going to be a piece of cake.
Well it wasn't, I couldn't unlock the bootloader using HTCdev method because the phone is vodafone branded. I tried numerous things, i wasn't able to perform the juopeanutbro (?) trick, tried flashing a custom hboot through fastboot (JB_hboot.zip) in linux (gave me an error 42 "Remote: Custom id check failed" or something like that). And after a few days of trying and trying i'm getting tired of it.
So my question is, is there any option i missed to achieve S-OFF or unlock bootloader? I'd love to flash a custom rom on it because I don't like the 4.0.3 Firmware which the phone is running now.
Phone Details:
Android version: 4.0.3 (vodafone)
HBOOT:1.27.0000
Radio: 11.29A.3504.18_M
CID:VODAPE17

Did you select the Vodafone model there in list of HTC dev...
Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio Z715e using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

Ihttp://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1668276
If htc Dev method doesn't work for your phone, use the non htc Dev method. Follow everything on the screen, do not run out of battery power (that will probably brick your phone)

Yes I did select the vodafone model, and I end up with the "failed" error when flashing unlock_code.bin. I don't understand why the HTCdev method doesn't work in the first place. And the method described by stillsober requires the almost impossible wire-trick.. Well i'm afraid there is no other method..

Redjack77 said:
Yes I did select the vodafone model, and I end up with the "failed" error when flashing unlock_code.bin. I don't understand why the HTCdev method doesn't work in the first place. And the method described by stillsober requires the almost impossible wire-trick.. Well i'm afraid there is no other method..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
has your motherboard been replaced?
what error did you have?

It's not that impossible, I did it in like 10 tries, there are YouTube videos timed exactly so you know when to connect and disconnect the wire. plus you can try as many time as it takes so you really can't go wrong... You know both method require the insulated wire right? It's just one requires the more accurate timing

Well I've somehow managed to achieve S-OFF!!!!!! This is my fastboot screen:
h t t p://i43.tinypic.com/2wgubtj.jpg
I read in a guide somewhere on the forum that when having S-OFF flashing a custom recovery would be possible, and writing supercid too, well the first thing failed (again...) but I did manage to write supercid. This is my command prompt screen:
h t t p://i39.tinypic.com/2uqzkna.jpg
So what do I have to do now??

Redjack77 said:
Well I've somehow managed to achieve S-OFF!!!!!! This is my fastboot screen:
h t t p://i43.tinypic.com/2wgubtj.jpg
I read in a guide somewhere on the forum that when having S-OFF flashing a custom recovery would be possible, and writing supercid too, well the first thing failed (again...) but I did manage to write supercid. This is my command prompt screen:
h t t p://i39.tinypic.com/2uqzkna.jpg
So what do I have to do now??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what does it say in the top?
juopunutbear or locked?
also i can't view the pics
can you post here in a post?

Well on the picture it says ***Locked*** and you can just paste the link in your browser without the h t t p://, because i can't include links in my posts as I have lest than 10 posts submitted.
But I actually have solved all my problems, because I knew juopeanutbear had unlocked bootloaders available on his website and in fastboot you are possible to flash these with the command "fastboot oem rebootRUU" wich put the device in RUU update mode, and then flash the unlocked HBOOT from juopeanutbear's website with the command "fastboot flash zip jb_hboot.zip.
Note (to people who might find this useful in the future): The devices sticked on showing a green loading bar in RUU update mode after entering the second command, on the command prompt it showed done, but the device didn't reboot or what. Just wait a while (to be sure) and enter command "fastboot reboot-bootloader"
Now my fastboot screen shows **Juopeanutbear** instead of ***locked*** and I've already managed to flash clockworkmod SUCCESFULLY!!!!!!!
Now I will replace CWM by 4ext and i'm good to go I guess, how I managed to get S-off will remain a secret for me, I assume I did do the wire-trick correctly after all, but didn't notice (you know,, spending a few nights behind your PC doesn't give you a clear state of mind

Redjack77 said:
Well on the picture it says ***Locked*** and you can just paste the link in your browser without the h t t p://,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are right
i included also the h t t p : //
so you managed it yourself
crongats
now it is time for a custom rom
note: probably after achieving S-OFF you chose no for installing the jb hboot

Running Team Venom's Viper sense 5 rom and just like I expected I LOVE IT!!

which RUU choose

help!!!!!!!!!!!!
kindly let me know if I can install RUU_ACCORD_U_APO_00_HTC_Europe_2.00.401.03_1.11b.3 2.19.23_2_15.42.32_RETAIL_ENC_RELEASE.exe
in my HTC T-MOBILE DE 8X with CID MOB-001?
bootloader (175731)
I await response. thanks

priologiacomo said:
help!!!!!!!!!!!!
kindly let me know if I can install RUU_ACCORD_U_APO_00_HTC_Europe_2.00.401.03_1.11b.3 2.19.23_2_15.42.32_RETAIL_ENC_RELEASE.exe
in my HTC T-MOBILE DE 8X with CID MOB-001?
bootloader (175731)
I await response. thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Based on your bootloader version, I don't think you can, but I might be wrong.
What Windows Phone version are you running?
As of yet, there's no way to flash an RUU version 2.00.401.03 on a phone that has a greater version installed (if you've installed any updates, you'll have a greater version).
IF you could flash, you would first need to debrand your phone first (search for ACDU fix for that), since the RUUs that have been released are straight from HTC, with no carrier modifications and they would fail to flash on a branded phone.

Potis20 said:
Based on your bootloader version, I don't think you can, but I might be wrong.
What Windows Phone version are you running?
As of yet, there's no way to flash an RUU version 2.00.401.03 on a phone that has a greater version installed (if you've installed any updates, you'll have a greater version).
IF you could flash, you would first need to debrand your phone first (search for ACDU fix for that), since the RUUs that have been released are straight from HTC, with no carrier modifications and they would fail to flash on a branded phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok this is the situation. I wanted to know if it was possible to install the rom suitable to remove the logo T-MOBILE and have the cid 11111111
thanks await response.

priologiacomo said:
ok this is the situation. I wanted to know if it was possible to install the rom suitable to remove the logo T-MOBILE and have the cid 11111111
thanks await response.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've read as far as flashing goes, the operation is a no-go because the OS version is too high and it would cause the flashing progress to stop at the error message "Image version less than..". Do not attempt it since you'll be left with a brick.

Potis20 said:
From what I've read as far as flashing goes, the operation is a no-go because the OS version is too high and it would cause the flashing progress to stop at the error message "Image version less than..". Do not attempt it since you'll be left with a brick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok thanks more.

Potis20 said:
From what I've read as far as flashing goes, the operation is a no-go because the OS version is too high and it would cause the flashing progress to stop at the error message "Image version less than..". Do not attempt it since you'll be left with a brick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I pm xboxmod and he told me tried to flash uefi.nbh until got uefi error.But I tried all the nbh I could find on the Internet,failed.Now,no one knows how to disable OS version check except htc

fengsam said:
I pm xboxmod and he told me tried to flash uefi.nbh until got uefi error.But I tried all the nbh I could find on the Internet,failed.Now,no one knows how to disable OS version check except htc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried the nbh in the ACDU fix? That one caused my device to show a uefi provision error.

Potis20 said:
Have you tried the nbh in the ACDU fix? That one caused my device to show a uefi provision error.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That key.nbh?I tried just say 'Image version less than Device version''

fengsam said:
That key.nbh?I tried just say 'Image version less than Device version''
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, I guess whatever that nbh flashes has been updated.
I can't understand why they decided to have that check in place... if I flash a stock RUU, it shouldn't matter what was previously running on the device, it should flash everything back to stock. Why do they make this so user un-friendly?

Potis20 said:
Hmm, I guess whatever that nbh flashes has been updated.
I can't understand why they decided to have that check in place... if I flash a stock RUU, it shouldn't matter what was previously running on the device, it should flash everything back to stock. Why do they make this so user un-friendly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yep,but htc8s don't have this check.In China,someone leaks the official gdr3 ruu for htc c620d(cdma) to repair the bricked phone.My phone is security unlocked,so I tried it,failed.

HI all !
I have the same problem i can't use my phone and i can't downgrade it.
PM232002 P S WP I
SBL1-1.0.21009.0
SBL2-1.0.21009.0
SBL3-1.0.21009.0
RPM-1.1.03078.0
TZ-303.000.241
UEFI -0.0.3030.0(175731)
OS-4.12.401.01
eMMC SMS 14910 MB F-15
CID-HTC_032
Radio-1.20b.32.19.04_15.67b.32.19
MSM8260A v 3.2.1-p1
If i try use RUU.exe phone reboot on 1% and i had error 270
If i try to use Y-connector i have error what my version is higher , or this error DongLeFail:CheckDeviceImage Signature Error.
Can you help me ?
Thanks

MID changing

hi guys,
i've a htc m8 verizon branded and I'm asking if i can rename the model ID to use with stock rom such as european rom. is it possible?
thanks

Peuf said:
hi guys,
i've a htc m8 verizon branded and I'm asking if i can rename the model ID to use with stock rom such as european rom. is it possible?
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If s-off you can. But not sure that's necessary as once s-off you could flash the intl firmware and then a custom intl (stock rom). If you attempt to fully convert by changing mid and cid and then ruu you likely won't succeed. There's more to it than that.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

dottat said:
If s-off you can. But not sure that's necessary as once s-off you could flash the intl firmware and then a custom intl (stock rom). If you attempt to fully convert by changing mid and cid and then ruu you likely won't succeed. There's more to it than that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, thanks for your help. Yes i'm s-off and I've changed teh mid to 0P6B100 and cid to supercid but you're right, i get error everytime i try to flash ruu.
and on top of that, i cannot revert back to verizon mid with the mid changer thing. now i'm stuck with a no rom m8 'coz none of all i've tried did work, neither zip flashable ruu nor the exe one
a little help please

Peuf said:
ok, thanks for your help. Yes i'm s-off and I've changed teh mid to 0P6B100 and cid to supercid but you're right, i get error everytime i try to flash ruu.
and on top of that, i cannot revert back to verizon mid with the mid changer thing. now i'm stuck with a no rom m8 'coz none of all i've tried did work, neither zip flashable ruu nor the exe one
a little help please
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So this is usually what happens. I can help you back out of it if you want using teamviewer if you are game. The partitions from a Verizon to a sprint to an intl m8 aren't the same. That's the problem.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

dottat said:
I can help you back out of it if you want using teamviewer if you are game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes I am, the thing is, i'm on mac os x. adb and fastboot cmd are working great but if you plan to use shell cmd I'm not sure it will work though

I think The same happened to me
I'm bringing this over from the HTC One help thread as instructed
I'm on Metropcs and wanted an HTC One GPE
Bought an unlocked verizon HTC One M8
Rooted it with kingroot, then unlocked the bootloader and s-off with sunshine.
Was in the process of changing the model id by flashing it with Golv's MID changer when the usb cord was pulled from the computer (I'll take that to the appropriate thread for THAT discussion)
Now the phone only comes up in bootloader mode, but I have no options (reset, reboot etc) it only says RUU where my options were.
ADB won't detect the phone however fastboot will and when I do fastboot getvar all I seem to have all the original stuff. (Except the CID has been changed to GOOGL001)
I can fastboot reboot-bootloader but the screen comes up as if I did fastboot oem rebootRUU except that there is a triangle in each corner of the screen with an exclamation mark in them.
Yes this is my first time trying anything like this.
Any ideas would be appreciated.

heinzdb said:
I'm bringing this over from the HTC One help thread as instructed
I'm on Metropcs and wanted an HTC One GPE
Bought an unlocked verizon HTC One M8
Rooted it with kingroot, then unlocked the bootloader and s-off with sunshine.
Was in the process of changing the model id by flashing it with Golv's MID changer when the usb cord was pulled from the computer (I'll take that to the appropriate thread for THAT discussion)
Now the phone only comes up in bootloader mode, but I have no options (reset, reboot etc) it only says RUU where my options were.
ADB won't detect the phone however fastboot will and when I do fastboot getvar all I seem to have all the original stuff. (Except the CID has been changed to GOOGL001)
I can fastboot reboot-bootloader but the screen comes up as if I did fastboot oem rebootRUU except that there is a triangle in each corner of the screen with an exclamation mark in them.
Yes this is my first time trying anything like this.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same thing I offered the guy abovw
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

ok, so let's do it then

seems like finally I figure out how to fix it. I was able to bring back the verizon's MID by using the shell command and then flash a verizon's rom and firmware without any issues

Fixed it!
dottat said:
Same thing I offered the guy abovw
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks so much for your offer, but someone told me about another post of yours using ruuM8_TWRP_2_7.zip and that solved it! So either way you're a great help!
Now is there a way I can get this phone's hotspot to work on the Metropcs plan? (That's what started this debacle)