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Since it's being released in a couple days, is it possible we will get the source code to build for OnePlus?
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it is possible, but i don't know what will happened
From the official sources, no clue. From ROM devs, I'd say give it a month once source code drops. Cyanogenmod already built for this device, I mean look at the back of the phone, so I'm sure they will support us for at least 2 more android versions. My very first android phone the Droid Incredible came out in 2010 and for rom support from devs all the way up to 4.4.4, so I'd say pretty dang high from rom devs. Helps also that we have a simple bootloader unlock, which makes devs even more inclined to work on the device. Based on my past device experience, we'll get at least 3 more major versions, 6.0 included, maybe more. By then, your battery will be useless, and you'll have moved on, which is awesome.
kdb424 said:
From the official sources, no clue. From ROM devs, I'd say give it a month once source code drops. Cyanogenmod already built for this device, I mean look at the back of the phone, so I'm sure they will support us for at least 2 more android versions. My very first android phone the Droid Incredible came out in 2010 and for rom support from devs all the way up to 4.4.4, so I'd say pretty dang high from rom devs. Helps also that we have a simple bootloader unlock, which makes devs even more inclined to work on the device. Based on my past device experience, we'll get at least 3 more major versions, 6.0 included, maybe more. By then, your battery will be useless, and you'll have moved on, which is awesome.
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CM are only obligated to support this device until April next year, so Marshmallow will be the last official version we get. They're contracted for 24 months from the time of release and they'll drop this device like a hot potato the first chance they get.
Heisenberg said:
CM are only obligated to support this device until April next year, so Marshmallow will be the last official version we get. They're contracted for 24 months from the time of release and they'll drop this device like a hot potato the first chance they get.
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While I'd like to agree with you, that's in regards to business, we will see 6.0 for that reason alone. I was more referring to the fact that we still see updates on the nexus 4 up to 5.1 and the fact that open popular devices seem to get much longer support. Wasn't trying to disagree with you at all in that respect. I'm not that likes to hang onto their old devices, or sell them to friends, so I have seen how amazing that support can be even for older devices. My TF101 tablet is still rocking, and running 5.1.1 it's smoother than it's ever been. Don't think that'll see 6.0, but I didn't expect it to make it to 5.0. It all comes down to "We'll see how long it gets supported, but don't demand anything past 6.0" even though historically, we should get 3 more major versions if it follows most devices paths when it comes to rom support. That boing said, I'll be flashing 6.0 as soon as we get a rom that can multiboot!
kdb424 said:
While I'd like to agree with you, that's in regards to business, we will see 6.0 for that reason alone. I was more referring to the fact that we still see updates on the nexus 4 up to 5.1 and the fact that open popular devices seem to get much longer support. Wasn't trying to disagree with you at all in that respect. I'm not that likes to hang onto their old devices, or sell them to friends, so I have seen how amazing that support can be even for older devices. My TF101 tablet is still rocking, and running 5.1.1 it's smoother than it's ever been. Don't think that'll see 6.0, but I didn't expect it to make it to 5.0. It all comes down to "We'll see how long it gets supported, but don't demand anything past 6.0" even though historically, we should get 3 more major versions if it follows most devices paths when it comes to rom support. That boing said, I'll be flashing 6.0 as soon as we get a rom that can multiboot!
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There's no doubt we'll see the next version after Marshmallow on this phone, but I can guarantee you it won't be in the form of official updates via Cyanogen Inc, it'll be in the form of community developed ROMs via CyanogenMod. If you meant CyanogenMod and not Cyanogen Inc then I misunderstood you.
I just meant Roms in general
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Rom developers are really fast, i would say 1 week after we get the source there will be a alpha version. Cyanogen13 will take at least months.
_Beni_ said:
Rom developers are really fast, i would say 1 week after we get the source there will be a alpha version. Cyanogen13 will take at least months.
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Sounds good to me! We have great devs here! Hopefully they don't leave for the Nexus phones, they really aren't worth the $ in my opinion. 808 and 810 have too many problems. I got the Moto X Pure and had that for 2 weeks and even the 808 had terrible heating issues. This years chipsets by Qualcomm are just terrible. Not to mention even now, 3 weeks in they have no dev support and Motorola (now Lenovo) is very shady company.
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nikeman513 said:
Sounds good to me! We have great devs here! Hopefully they don't leave for the Nexus phones, they really aren't worth the $ in my opinion. 808 and 810 have too many problems. I got the Moto X Pure and had that for 2 weeks and even the 808 had terrible heating issues. This years chipsets by Qualcomm are just terrible. Not to mention even now, 3 weeks in they have no dev support and Motorola (now Lenovo) is very shady company.
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What makes Moto shady? Nexus 6, first non nexus company to update their phones to lollipop, budget friendly phones...
And even if they were shady, I think OnePlus still takes the #1 spot in that category lol
jukiewalsh said:
What makes Moto shady? Nexus 6, first non nexus company to update their phones to lollipop, budget friendly phones...
And even if they were shady, I think OnePlus still takes the #1 spot in that category lol
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Motorola says they aren't going to update the Moto E although they advertised that they would. Also not updating Moto X 2014 AT&T and Verizon version.
runderekrun said:
Motorola says they aren't going to update the Moto E although they advertised that they would. Also not updating Moto X 2014 AT&T and Verizon version.
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Moto E: cheap budget phone that I think people only bought as a placeholder when they broke a phone or something else happened, it's not a flagship. nobody bought it to use for 2+ years and I don't think it was intended as such.
Moto x: did you see that the pure is getting updated? That means it was the carriers decision, not Motorola's. Also, it's easy to convert the att/Verizon version to the pure version and then you'll get the update fine.
jukiewalsh said:
What makes Moto shady? Nexus 6, first non nexus company to update their phones to lollipop, budget friendly phones...
And even if they were shady, I think OnePlus still takes the #1 spot in that category lol
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As soon as Lenovo brought out Pure they let go about 500 Motorola employees, many who were in the dev department... They are giving people hard times about returns saying it will take 6-8 weeks to get their money back on an overnight return label. The pure QC is piss poor, if you go to their forums, their most popular thread is about returning the phone... This clearly isn't the same Motorola we used to love. I'm not big on OnePlus either, I only came back here, because at least I know my OnePlus works, I'll never buy from them again though, that's for sure.
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Here they don't say we will get COS13 but only Oxygen / Hydrogen :
http://www.gadgetlite.in/2015/10/here-is-list-of-devices-getting-android.html#.VhNtuWuBS6F
But since the communication of Cyanogen is not really a "thing" I won't settle for this news
Source has dropped, so we might see devs starting to build soon
https://android.googlesource.com/platform/build/+/marshmallow-release
Anybody already found the radio online time fix commits? or didnt they even fix it?
Well i think it will be possible to get a bootable AOSP 6.0 Rom , cause we already had a booting 5.1.51 Rom!
_Beni_ said:
Anybody already found the radio online time fix commits? or didnt they even fix it?
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the radio issues are driving me nuts, no matter what modem i use i still run into issues.
Heisenberg said:
CM are only obligated to support this device until April next year, so Marshmallow will be the last official version we get. They're contracted for 24 months from the time of release and they'll drop this device like a hot potato the first chance they get.
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Agreed. Look at when we finally got 5.1.1...SMH
BTW, pretty sure you meant Cyanogen Inc, not CM
nikeman513 said:
Since it's being released in a couple days, is it possible we will get the source code to build for OnePlus?
Sent from my A0001 using XDA Free mobile app
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The probability is high that we'll get a taste (not likely daily driver level sweet mind you) of Marshmallow by tomorrow:
Follow this thread
http://www.androidcentral.com/will-...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
great news to us xt157x users. expect android N in the near future, cannot wait for the custom roms for it !!
I think that is just an opinion piece.
I would agree, this is a "most likely" case and probably largely the article writers opinion, or best personal knowledge (there is little to no reference articles to backup this information linked anywhere in the article). Lenovo doesn't have the best track record here... they said they would have Marshmallow for several device and then backed out later too.
If we get it officially, great, but I'm not holding my breath... if not I am sure our developers here won't let us down.
If Lenorola does, I'd be shocked. The 6.0.1 patch has been out for 246 days and we just got . . . May's security update 2 weeks ago. Motonovo has said 2015 was a rough year for them (support wise) but in the 8 months they've had to make 2016 a smooth year, IMHO, they're still rough and bumpy. Maybe some Gold Bond Ultimate?
I made a joke there, and it's not really funny. Feel free to ignore.
I do believe 6.0.1 is a small patch for phones that needed it. Moto X pure doesn't need it. Read this. http://www.gottabemobile.com/2015/12/16/android-6-0-1-marshmallow-update-whats-new/ .This was for the 6.0.1 update. Then ask yourself if you really needed it. Plus id rather them spend effort on Android N. As far as getting N. We will. When is the question. That would be the last update it will get. But you can cry and switch phones. Good luck on getting updates any faster. Remember you already bought the phone. They would rather you buy a new one.
I agree that we will probably get N. What I don't get is the 6.0.1 update, or lack of it. They released it for the Style 1572, or at least some of them. My understanding was that other than language, the only differences was dual sim and maybe a radio band or two. Otherwise specs show as the exact same. These minor differences should have made any extra development minimal if any was required at all.
I'm not whining about it, but rather just curious as to why it was decided not to give the 1575 the same update. The two models are not like many other ones out there where international versions vs US versions can have larger differences (I.e. old example but take the galaxy s3 with a QC dual core 2gb RAM vs international with Samsung processor quad core and 1gb RAM) and carrier branding creates further issues.
Did you read the link? Im not saying Moto x pure is a perfect phone , it didn't need a 0.0.1 update . Read what it fixed for Moto x play. http://motorola-mobility-en-in.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/110304. Moto x pure already had these when it first rolled out. The fix was minimal and not necessary for them to make. The radio in the Moto x play was bad. They needed a tweak. That was it. You fail to see the relevance of the 6.0.1 patch. Are you having issues with your phone such as camera, radio, serious battery drain? I get a full day with 4.5 hours of screen time. That's almost perfect phone to me. And what ive read that's on par with the majority on this site. So please explain to me what 6.0.1 is going to accomplish for me or any other user for the Moto pure. More emoji's? Give me Nougat.
StankFiss said:
Did you read the link? Im not saying Moto x pure is a perfect phone , it didn't need a 0.0.1 update . Read what it fixed for Moto x play. http://motorola-mobility-en-in.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/110304. Moto x pure already had these when it first rolled out. The fix was minimal and not necessary for them to make. The radio in the Moto x play was bad. They needed a tweak. That was it. You fail to see the relevance of the 6.0.1 patch. Are you having issues with your phone such as camera, radio, serious battery drain? I get a full day with 4.5 hours of screen time. That's almost perfect phone to me. And what ive read that's on par with the majority on this site. So please explain to me what 6.0.1 is going to accomplish for me or any other user for the Moto pure. More emoji's? Give me Nougat.
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I browsed through the link material. And you are correct that the features for the most part were already incorporated. Just curious was all. Didn't realize the style had radio issues. Thank you for answering that question. I could care less for emojis as I don't use them.
https://motog3.com/motorola-android-7-0-nougat-update/
Updated Sept 1st, not sure how reliable but says there we will be getting it!
While I would like to assume that the Moto x pure edition will get it, this article seems to be an opinion piece with little or no supporting info other than his ramblings and definitely nothing from Lenovo/Moto.
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Nice. Another garbage site with no credible info. I love how in their comments this "Motorola" author is answering questions on wether or not so and so device will get Nougat, like they're 100% sure.
Would love to see the source. Anyone can take a guess like this and have a good chance of getting it right. What got me: The G4 line "might" get the update?! WT... The phone was practically just released so unless Lenovo just really wants to destroy the Moto product line, it would be stupid not to release N for the phone.
aybarrap1 said:
Would love to see the source. Anyone can take a guess like this and have a good chance of getting it right. What got me: The G4 line "might" get the update?! WT... The phone was practically just released so unless Lenovo just really wants to destroy the Moto product line, it would be stupid not to release N for the phone.
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The g4s are garbage and I spoke to a rep today and he told me to stay away from them haha a Lenovo rep said this! Bought one yesterday and the screen was all glitchy took it back today traded it out and paid the difference for the plus and same thing before even leaving the parking lot. Finally got pissed and said screw it and got a moto x pure style again. Loved this phone the first time I had it and love it now! Guernetee it gets nuoget and if it dosent.. well.. there will ALWAYS be Roms haha lol. But what I was trying to get at with the g4 phones is that's more than likely the reason they "might" get it.. I'd doubt it though honestly. Lenovo ruined the Motorola line. Ya the z is bad ass but come on man. The pure style was the best phone they had made in YEARS! Besides the Nexus 6. I'm super disappointed in the joke Lenovo has made!
Reasons to believe End of September to mid-October is the best hope to get nougat for MXPE:
- it coincides with quarterly security updates for this device
- it's about the same time difference from Google releasing marshmallow last year.
- it skipped 6.0.1 so it has just time to play with N previews.
- it's the period when the new Moto flagship will be released unlocked worldwide. That means these devices will be getting an update quickly (inclusion Verizon already offered on US) to boost sales. But also updating its previous flagship would convince customers to buy the newest flagship. I believe that sales of Moto Z international will not be good if our device does not get an update on the framework i mentioned. Didn't we all by this device because we thought it would be updated quickly?
- Finally, I believe all the hype in the media that mentions Motorola as a company that is expected to deliver fast nougat update is financed by Motorola itself. While they won't give us directly a timeframe, they use media to keep up the sales of their new and numerous line of devices. Not to forget that Moto maker still has stocks of MXPE which they want to sell, but strangely have not lowered the price since mother's day...
donrojo said:
Reasons to believe End of September to mid-October is the best hope to get nougat for MXPE:
- it coincides with quarterly security updates for this device
- it's about the same time difference from Google releasing marshmallow last year.
- it skipped 6.0.1 so it has just time to play with N previews.
- it's the period when the new Moto flagship will be released unlocked worldwide. That means these devices will be getting an update quickly (inclusion Verizon already offered on US) to boost sales. But also updating its previous flagship would convince customers to buy the newest flagship. I believe that sales of Moto Z international will not be good if our device does not get an update on the framework i mentioned. Didn't we all by this device because we thought it would be updated quickly?
- Finally, I believe all the hype in the media that mentions Motorola as a company that is expected to deliver fast nougat update is financed by Motorola itself. While they won't give us directly a timeframe, they use media to keep up the sales of their new and numerous line of devices. Not to forget that Moto maker still has stocks of MXPE which they want to sell, but strangely have not lowered the price since mother's day...
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Skipping the 6.0.1 update does not mean they were working on Nougat. They couldn't until the source code was released.
Wouldn't it make sense not to update an older phone until later to entice people to buy the latest and greatest device with the N update?
aybarrap1 said:
Skipping the 6.0.1 update does not mean they were working on Nougat. They couldn't until the source code was released.
Wouldn't it make sense not to update an older phone until later to entice people to buy the latest and greatest device with the N update?
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My line of thought is simple: their new flagship costs almost twice it's predecessor, or even three times if you get a certain alluring mod. The only way to convince a buyer spend more money is to assure that expense is worth it on a longer term. Long term means continuity of updates in this business. But who will be convinced of that if Moto ditched our device before it reached a year (thinking latest update for us was the May security patches)..
You already have fears of not getting updates, probably because we didn't get 6.0.1! Would you think of buying a Z Droid if you know your mxpe would not get N (even if you could afford it)?
donrojo said:
My line of thought is simple: their new flagship costs almost twice it's predecessor, or even three times if you get a certain alluring mod. The only way to convince a buyer spend more money is to assure that expense is worth it on a longer term. Long term means continuity of updates in this business. But who will be convinced of that if Moto ditched our device before it reached a year (thinking latest update for us was the May security patches)..
You already have fears of not getting updates, probably because we didn't get 6.0.1! Would you think of buying a Z Droid if you know your mxpe would not get N (even if you could afford it)?
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There is some logic there and it is a theory used in the world of business. On the same token, my theory of updating the MXPE later is also a practice by businesses. Now it will just depend on what theory of business Lenovo decided to use.
aybarrap1 said:
Skipping the 6.0.1 update does not mean they were working on Nougat. They couldn't until the source code was released.
Wouldn't it make sense not to update an older phone until later to entice people to buy the latest and greatest device with the N update?
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Click to collapse
I would think that Google gives out the source code to large OEMs before they release it to the general public so some of the later Q3 devices can all run the new version. Also, Moto built their reputation on relatively quick software updates for their supported phones, and I don't think Lenovo would mess with that image too much as to not hurt current sales.
aybarrap1 said:
There is some logic there and it is a theory used in the world of business. On the same token, my theory of updating the MXPE later is also a practice by businesses. Now it will just depend on what theory of business Lenovo decided to use.
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Oh well, i think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that the Z will be upgraded after MXPE. I actually think once the Z will be available worldwide it will get the N update to boost sales. I'm only saying that it would be difficult to convince people to buy an expensive phone unless they have a guarantee it will be a long investment. Updating quickly the XPE should give that guarantee that even Z will be maintained after its one year anniversary.
skinnykinney said:
https://motog3.com/motorola-android-7-0-nougat-update/
Updated Sept 1st, not sure how reliable but says there we will be getting it!
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That motog3 site is just an pile of advertisements and SEO bait. It's not legit.
After dealing with Moto/Lenovo support a few times, my impression is that Lenovo is struggling to appear like they know what they're doing. Their repair program is musical chairs, tech support doesn't know what's going on, and they haven't been able to maintain the software. Even if they've outsourced Nougat, I doubt they've purchased any followup bug fixes.
I just saw that CM14 7.0 dropped for the Android One, Oneplus 3 and a few others today. That should help things along a bit. Once it exists, as it now does, it usually makes it's way to other devices pretty quickly. :fingers-crossed:
i want ask ... i don't know if my question is stupid or not LooL
if lenovo dont include our MOTO X phone to update list
can the Rom developer here make custom ROM with N Update? or they need something from lenovo (like permission or code) ?
Zekial said:
I would think that Google gives out the source code to large OEMs before they release it to the general public so some of the later Q3 devices can all run the new version. Also, Moto built their reputation on relatively quick software updates for their supported phones, and I don't think Lenovo would mess with that image too much as to not hurt current sales.
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But you should believe @Zekial When Moto, was a Google Company, and not official bought by lenovo, they update their smartphones very fast, Nexus 5 receive Lollipop after Moto X . Now Moto sucks, only this week in germany they update their phones to 6.0.1 (security update from may ).
Pure will be updated for N, when is the problem, could be this year or in the next.
Here's a bit of confirmed news
https://in.news.yahoo.com/android-7-0-nougat-schedule-160203008.html
dammit, and i just rooted my phone finally today.
AsquareX said:
Here's a bit of confirmed news
https://in.news.yahoo.com/android-7-0-nougat-schedule-160203008.html
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I don't think that article tells us anything we don't already know. I read it yesterday and it just says "should" and "probably" with no sources.
AsquareX said:
Here's a bit of confirmed news
https://in.news.yahoo.com/android-7-0-nougat-schedule-160203008.html
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Just another fluff article... zero information, just speculation and opinion.
The "news" now on neurigedget... Hmm
not officially confirmed
http://neurogadget.net/2016/09/24/m...tedly-get-android-nougat-update-october/40315
Meanwhile, the Moto X Play, Moto X Style, and Moto X Force, will receive the update on November.
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Hello,
Anyone got news about 7.0 update for Moto g ?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=68575954
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There have been at least half a dozen threads here on Nougat in this area and the General area... A couple minutes of browsing would answer this question for you.
Will we get Nougat? Yes, most definitely with custom ROMs... AOSP and CM are both in alpha stages at this point but many pieces are still not working so it is unsuitable for daily driver usage yet, but give it time. This device has a great developer base, it will happen and be stable in time.
Will we "officially" get Nougat from Moto? Who knows, they are not talking about it at all... Zero official information. It is more likely than not, but it is not unheard of for Moto to drop updates from a fully capable handset, we have seen a few example of that in the last year or so. There has also been no rumour of a closed beta, which usually occurs 45-90 days prior to public roll-out, for any Moto handset as of yet.
As we know India got the Nougat. Brazil did too. EU finally gets it's share.
Nothing in US, except a soak announced by RepublicWireless. On the official Motorola / lenovo forums you can be banned if you talk about sideloading the Nougat on US devices. While Moto allows unlocking the bootloader by providing the unlock codes (in US they benefit from that by canceling the warranty), they frown upon what happens next. Like people will unlock the bootloader just for the pleasure of giving up the warranty, nothing more.
I was a Moto fan, me and my family owned a Moto DEFY XT (557D), MotoX (1st gen), Moto G (3rd gen), Moto E (2015) and now in use we have a Moto G4 Plus and a Moto X Pure.
Sadly, service (updates) for US is now last in line, bad interactions on their forums, no true international LTE bands support (band 20 is ommited from US phones, even if it is becoming one of the most important in EU for CA and rural).
I was planning to get the next Moto G5, but sadly I will have to move to a different company for my next phone.
What's sad is the fact that for each of us that have purchased their last Moto, there are probably 10 people that's never owned a Moto that will buy it. The US is pretty much the backwater for Lenovo and we probably are only a small fraction of their sales.
Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
At the price point that they try to sell the new Moto they needed loyal customers. The people that hunt bargains will not go for their inflated prices, not when they have likes of ZTE or Alcatel in the stores. Bad marketing strategy.
SoNic67 said:
At the price point that they try to sell the new Moto they needed loyal customers. The people that hunt bargains will not go for their inflated prices, not when they have likes of ZTE or Alcatel in the stores. Bad marketing strategy.
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I usually get a new phone every two years. I have had my G4 for six months, so I won't make any statements about what I will or won't buy at this time since a lot can change in 18 months. But I will say that Lenova is far from being the only manufacturer to drag their feet on updates. And in reality, I really don't care that much about getting stock upgrades since I unlock and customize every device I have. The custom firmwares are usually much better choices IMHO. So when I am ready to get a new phone (or tablet), the custom ROM choices and development activity will influence me more than whether or not the manufacturer is updating in a timely manner. And introductory prices usually fall in time
Custom firmwares are zero without updated blobs for camera, sensors, modem... That requires manufacturer support.
However my beef is mainly that lenovo had put the US market on backburner.
SoNic67 said:
Custom firmwares are zero without updated blobs for camera, sensors, modem... That requires manufacturer support.
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:good:
All very true. But it seems that the updated drivers for various features are made available long before stock ROM upgrades, thus custom ROM's are also available. In five years of using Android smart phones and tablets, I have never had to wait long for decent custom ROMs based on the latest version as opposed to the long delays for stock upgrades by some manufacturers. Huawei and Asus come to mind.
Anyhow, I wasn't trying to negate anyone's position about the current situation. I merely was stating my own personal opinion and what works for me. My own 2-cents worth so to speak.
US soak seems to be older (-13) than what is out now (-14). Probably is somehow related to the RepublicWireless preloaded app.
I would like to try the US soak test. Has anyone have a URL for it? I heard their was issues but sounds like the same issues I read about Nougat. Any truth to that?
I'm using Nougat 14 and it's having battery drain problems, it's general (check Lenovo forums).
Maybe for that reason they didn't update the US version for now.
Anyway it's taking too much time for be an Android version similar to AOSP, other companies like Huawei have very modified versions and are updating more fast.
Maybe Nokia is going to be what Motorola was. I'm going to wait the Nokia 8 presentation for decide if I buy it or a Moto G5 Plus.
pastorbob62 said:
I usually get a new phone every two years. I have had my G4 for six months, so I won't make any statements about what I will or won't buy at this time since a lot can change in 18 months. But I will say that Lenova is far from being the only manufacturer to drag their feet on updates. And in reality, I really don't care that much about getting stock upgrades since I unlock and customize every device I have. The custom firmwares are usually much better choices IMHO. So when I am ready to get a new phone (or tablet), the custom ROM choices and development activity will influence me more than whether or not the manufacturer is updating in a timely manner. And introductory prices usually fall in time
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The main reason I've stuck with Moto so long is the custom firmware options. It's actually unprecedented for me to be still running a stock rom all this time.
Jplabti said:
I'm using Nougat 14 and it's having battery drain problems, it's general (check Lenovo forums).
Maybe for that reason they didn't update the US version for now.
Anyway it's taking too much time for be an Android version similar to AOSP, other companies like Huawei have very modified versions and are updating more fast.
Maybe Nokia is going to be what Motorola was. I'm going to wait the Nokia 8 presentation for decide if I buy it or a Moto G5 Plus.
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I ran Nougat NPJ25.93-14 for a week and didn't see any battery drain whatsoever. In fact, the battery life was slightly better than any of the custom ROMs I have tried. I would have stuck with it except I missed the advanced boot menu and being able to customize the status bar. Not to mention it still has bloat that I really don't need.