it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch the same app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this
fatso485 said:
it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch an app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this
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Those chips aren't really that fast, they are just being run massively parallel in raid like arrays. Even still though, a setup as fast as what they use in compact flash cards would be nice.
- there are some major improvments in flash performance just take any normal flash drive (no RAID-like voodoo going on here) these days and compare it to the ones you used to have 3-4 years ago. the difference is MASSIVE even on low 1GB flash drives.
-what's wrong with running parallel flash chips in a raid-like fashion on a mobile device. it seems like one way to gain massive performance increases only
fatso485 said:
it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch the same app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this
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Click to collapse
I really don't think it is the chips, it is the CRAPPY Qualcomm processors HTC uses for our expensive phones.
With the size of the chips, the price, the controller, etc... would get sort of expensive. For example, an Intel SSD looks like this. http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/02/inside_an_ssd.jpg and costs a fortune. Their controller is the only one sofar that doesn't suck horribly at small file writes.
Look at this little glimmer of hope though
http://www.pretec.com/epages/Store....re.Pretec/Products/"news-March 03, 2009.no.2"
Too bad the a phone would probably make horrible use of it. My class 6 card might as well be a class 1 for how well my phone makes use of it.
oic0 said:
Look at this little glimmer of hope though
http://www.pretec.com/epages/Store....re.Pretec/Products/"news-March 03, 2009.no.2"
Too bad the a phone would probably make horrible use of it. My class 6 card might as well be a class 1 for how well my phone makes use of it.
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thats exatly my point. why are $800+ 2009 devices perform identically (internal flash memory) to 2003 devices. people seem to only care about obvious things like CPU speed when hey talk about performance.
I know Android has 2tb limit when it comes to external drives. You can work around filesystem, drives and whatnot, but that size limit seems to be unavoidable.
Having several drives larger than 2tb I'd like to be able to access to them, at least to read them. Is there no way at all to do it?
Partitioning IS NOT AN OPTION, the drive is in a single partition because Windows sees it just fine and has to be like that. I know you can partition it in smaller size, but that's just not what i'm looking for. I mean even Apple can do it with their iPads, why Android still has that 2tb limit?
NaXter24R said:
I know Android has 2tb limit when it comes to external drives. You can work around filesystem, drives and whatnot, but that size limit seems to be unavoidable.
Having several drives larger than 2tb I'd like to be able to access to them, at least to read them. Is there no way at all to do it?
Partitioning IS NOT AN OPTION, the drive is in a single partition because Windows sees it just fine and has to be like that. I know you can partition it in smaller size, but that's just not what i'm looking for. I mean even Apple can do it with their iPads, why Android still has that 2tb limit?
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If possible, this would have to be achieved by building your own custom kernel for your device with support for whatever size external drive you want. Building your own kernel requires building it from source, if the manufacturer of your device has not released a kernel source code for your device, you will not be able to build a custom kernel for your device. You can't achieve what you want by modifying/editing system files or adding additional software or apps. You can't achieve this by editing your device's stock kernel either. Adding features to a kernel requires adding them in the kernel building process, they can't be added by editing a kernel that already exists.
The kernel connects your hardware with your software and controls how your software uses your hardware. This is why you have to build a new kernel in order for your software to be able to use your hardware in a different way than it was designed to do.
If you don't know how to build a custom kernel, you will have to give up on your idea or buy a device that does support larger external drives. No, I don't know how to build a kernel and I'm not linking you to any guides because there are none that are comprehensive enough for you to do this from start to finish. You will have to do some Google searching and learn the process for yourself by trial and error until you get it right. Be warned, you could very easily brick the device and make it unuseable and unrepairable if you do not build the kernel correctly.
Droidriven said:
If possible, this would have to be achieved by building your own custom kernel for your device with support for whatever size external drive you want. Building your own kernel requires building it from source, if the manufacturer of your device has not released a kernel source code for your device, you will not be able to build a custom kernel for your device. You can't achieve what you want by modifying/editing system files or adding additional software or apps. You can't achieve this by editing your device's stock kernel either. Adding features to a kernel requires adding them in the kernel building process, they can't be added by editing a kernel that already exists.
The kernel connects your hardware with your software and controls how your software uses your hardware. This is why you have to build a new kernel in order for your software to be able to use your hardware in a different way than it was designed to do.
If you don't know how to build a custom kernel, you will have to give up on your idea or buy a device that does support larger external drives. No, I don't know how to build a kernel and I'm not linking you to any guides because there are none that are comprehensive enough for you to do this from start to finish. You will have to do some Google searching and learn the process for yourself by trial and error until you get it right. Be warned, you could very easily brick the device and make it unuseable and unrepairable if you do not build the kernel correctly.
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Click to collapse
I imagine that unfortunately.
I find it sto stupid that even Apple with iPadOS has better support for something that, in 2022, should be so obvious. I mean, drives larger than 2tb are a thing, and with stuff like USB hub and Samsung DEX using drives bigger than 2tb seems something that people could easily encounter.
But I also think this is some android limit, but I haven't dug too deep to find that out. There is so little online that is hard to understand why there is such limit.
I would be happy to use my tablet as a laptop replacement, but having to adapt my hdd choice seems stupid to me.
NaXter24R said:
I imagine that unfortunately.
I find it sto stupid that even Apple with iPadOS has better support for something that, in 2022, should be so obvious. I mean, drives larger than 2tb are a thing, and with stuff like USB hub and Samsung DEX using drives bigger than 2tb seems something that people could easily encounter.
But I also think this is some android limit, but I haven't dug too deep to find that out. There is so little online that is hard to understand why there is such limit.
I would be happy to use my tablet as a laptop replacement, but having to adapt my hdd choice seems stupid to me.
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Click to collapse
Yes, but mobile devices are not powerful machines like PC. Also, drives of that size require power, they are typically powered by the device they are connected to. That means adding unnecessary power drain on a mobile device, it would severely reduce battery life. They don't design them to use larger drives because it just isn't a smart or reasonable alternative, they assume the user is reasonable enough to understand that using a laptop or PC for that purpose is the better solution for using large drives. It is more reasonable to use those drives with a laptop or PC because they are more capable of powering drives of that size without excessive battery drain.
Just because iPad "can" use large drives, doesn't mean it is good at it or that it is an intelligent solution. It is just a selling point, not really a bonus or good thing.
There are no tablets on the market that are capable of effectively being used as a laptop replacement, they will never be able to perform at the level that laptop and desktop does. It isn't an android limitation, it is a technological limitation. The reason is because it is extremely hard to build a compact device with large amounts of processing power, large power capacity and intensive power usage because these factors generate a lot of heat, heat that compact devices can't handle or dissipate without throttling or slowing down performance. Which equals, it just isn't effectively reasonable.
Droidriven said:
Yes, but mobile devices are not powerful machines like PC. Also, drives of that size require power, they are typically powered by the device they are connected to. That means adding unnecessary power drain on a mobile device, it would severely reduce battery life. They don't design them to use larger drives because it just isn't a smart or reasonable alternative, they assume the user is reasonable enough to understand that using a laptop or PC for that purpose is the better solution for using large drives. It is more reasonable to use those drives with a laptop or PC because they are more capable of powering drives of that size without excessive battery drain.
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Power is not an issue. There are hubs. If i can hook stuff to a tablet and use it as a desktop replacement when i'm traveling, I don't see why I can't use an external drive. Moreover, a 1tb drive use the same power as a 4tb one. They're both USB. Is a sw thing, not hw. Sure there are some device without enough power to start the drive, but almost any decent tablet can do it. Plus, as I said, Apple does it with their iPad Pros. Also, I could be using an external powered drive, is just a USB cable.
Just because iPad "can" use large drives, doesn't mean it is good at it or that it is an intelligent solution. It is just a selling point, not really a bonus or good thing.
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On the contrary, I have a perfectly capable device of taking advantage of an external drive, and i'm limited by the OS. And the joke is that such OS is Android which loses against Apple in this case. As I said, i think is a joke I'm able to use something like Samsung DEX and not being able to access a drive just because is bigger than 2tb.
A missing feature is a missing feature.
There are no tablets on the market that are capable of effectively being used as a laptop replacement, they will never be able to perform at the level that laptop and desktop does. It isn't an android limitation, it is a technological limitation. The reason is because it is extremely hard to build a compact device with large amounts of processing power, large power capacity and intensive power usage because these factors generate a lot of heat, heat that compact devices can't handle or dissipate without throttling or slowing down performance. Which equals, it just isn't effectively reasonable.
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Click to collapse
Again, what if I have to dump footages and media from my device to some external device? Do I need to carry a laptop in order to do that when a tablet would be perfectly capable of doing it? Again, is a sw issue, not hw. I can edit a video on a laptop or on a tablet just in the same way. That has nothing to do with power. This is an outdated thing that limits some user for no apparent reason (i'm sure there is, and I'm sure is some outdated thing from the past).
I mean, I can use other filesystem, why the heck would I have to be limited by the size of an external drive?
NaXter24R said:
Power is not an issue. There are hubs. If i can hook stuff to a tablet and use it as a desktop replacement when i'm traveling, I don't see why I can't use an external drive. Moreover, a 1tb drive use the same power as a 4tb one. They're both USB. Is a sw thing, not hw. Sure there are some device without enough power to start the drive, but almost any decent tablet can do it. Plus, as I said, Apple does it with their iPad Pros. Also, I could be using an external powered drive, is just a USB cable.
On the contrary, I have a perfectly capable device of taking advantage of an external drive, and i'm limited by the OS. And the joke is that such OS is Android which loses against Apple in this case. As I said, i think is a joke I'm able to use something like Samsung DEX and not being able to access a drive just because is bigger than 2tb.
A missing feature is a missing feature.
Again, what if I have to dump footages and media from my device to some external device? Do I need to carry a laptop in order to do that when a tablet would be perfectly capable of doing it? Again, is a sw issue, not hw. I can edit a video on a laptop or on a tablet just in the same way. That has nothing to do with power. This is an outdated thing that limits some user for no apparent reason (i'm sure there is, and I'm sure is some outdated thing from the past).
I mean, I can use other filesystem, why the heck would I have to be limited by the size of an external drive?
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Click to collapse
You can disagree if you want, but, it doesn't change the fact that power usage and heat generation ARE the reasons why.
I didn't say that a tablet couldn't use large drives and I didn't say that a tablet couldn't do the things you described. I said that they are not reasonably effective tools for those purposes, which is why there is no focus on building them for those purposes.
A lot of the things that you want to use the tablet for are actually intensive activities. Video editing, for example, depending on the video and the kind of editing that you do, tends to be intensive and can be long duration processes, the more RAM and more processing power, and the more battery life, the better, which is why laptop and PC are better suited for these purposes. Sure, some tablets can do it, but in reality, they just aren't completely up to the task, especially in the long term.
When I said, large drives, I meant drives larger than the device has on-board. It had nothing to do with 1TB vs 2TB vs 4TB.
To give you a metaphor, a mechanic has to choose the best tool for the job, why purposefully choose to use a lesser tool when a better tool already exists?
Power usage, performance and heat generation are the 3 main things taken into account when designing compact devices all of which are increased by the kinds of activities you are discussing.
But, I know I'm wasting my time trying to use logic with you when all you are focused on is your own personal convenience.
Droidriven said:
You can disagree if you want, but, it doesn't change the fact that power usage and heat generation ARE the reasons why.
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Sorry but I strongly disagree.
Power is the same. The exact same. A 2.5" 500gb use the same power as a 2.5" 4tb drive. Heat is the same as well since the specs are very much the same beside space.
Droidriven said:
I didn't say that a tablet couldn't use large drives and I didn't say that a tablet couldn't do the things you described. I said that they are not reasonably effective tools for those purposes, which is why there is no focus on building them for those purposes.
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It might be, but I see this as a lack of foresight. That 2tb limit is a sw thing. The drive is perfectly seen and recognized, but the space is not. This is why you can partition a 16tb drive in 8 2tb partitions and see them all.
Droidriven said:
A lot of the things that you want to use the tablet for are actually intensive activities. Video editing, for example, depending on the video and the kind of editing that you do, tends to be intensive and can be long duration processes, the more RAM and more processing power, and the more battery life, the better, which is why laptop and PC are better suited for these purposes. Sure, some tablets can do it, but in reality, they just aren't completely up to the task, especially in the long term.
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I know, but they're designed to do that. I'm not doing anything weird, the manufacturer expects me to do it. And i'm doing it there because in some case is better to bring a tablet than a laptop. Is that simple.
Is like buying a car and having the air conditioning not working past 35° ambient temperature because "is a bit too hot".
I think Google forgot about it since there isn't that much audience for that, but is actually becoming an issue. Media use a ton of space and larger drives are a thing.
being able to access something via OTG was one of they key features of android and now is a limit. Even Apple do this better now.
Droidriven said:
When I said, large drives, I meant drives larger than the device has on-board. It had nothing to do with 1TB vs 2TB vs 4TB.
To give you a metaphor, a mechanic has to choose the best tool for the job, why purposefully choose to use a lesser tool when a better tool already exists?
Power usage, performance and heat generation are the 3 main things taken into account when designing compact devices all of which are increased by the kinds of activities you are discussing.
But, I know I'm wasting my time trying to use logic with you when all you are focused on is your own personal convenience.
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Click to collapse
Is not about personal convenience. The drive use the same exact power. Simple as that. Is a 5v 900mA USB drive. This is true vor every USB drive. SSD, HDD, anything.
As I said, is a sw thing so whatever you said about hw and power is straight up false.
What I asked is why there is in 2022 this limit and if there is a way to avoid it, since is a SW limit. Especially now with Google TV I don't understand understand they have this limit. Even Chrome OS doesn't have that.
About your example, this is not a better tool. This is a lack of a tool.
NaXter24R said:
Sorry but I strongly disagree.
Power is the same. The exact same. A 2.5" 500gb use the same power as a 2.5" 4tb drive. Heat is the same as well since the specs are very much the same beside space.
It might be, but I see this as a lack of foresight. That 2tb limit is a sw thing. The drive is perfectly seen and recognized, but the space is not. This is why you can partition a 16tb drive in 8 2tb partitions and see them all.
I know, but they're designed to do that. I'm not doing anything weird, the manufacturer expects me to do it. And i'm doing it there because in some case is better to bring a tablet than a laptop. Is that simple.
Is like buying a car and having the air conditioning not working past 35° ambient temperature because "is a bit too hot".
I think Google forgot about it since there isn't that much audience for that, but is actually becoming an issue. Media use a ton of space and larger drives are a thing.
being able to access something via OTG was one of they key features of android and now is a limit. Even Apple do this better now.
Is not about personal convenience. The drive use the same exact power. Simple as that. Is a 5v 900mA USB drive. This is true vor every USB drive. SSD, HDD, anything.
As I said, is a sw thing so whatever you said about hw and power is straight up false.
What I asked is why there is in 2022 this limit and if there is a way to avoid it, since is a SW limit. Especially now with Google TV I don't understand understand they have this limit. Even Chrome OS doesn't have that.
About your example, this is not a better tool. This is a lack of a tool.
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Click to collapse
As I already said, it has nothing to do with how much power a 2TB drive uses compared to a 4TB drive. When engineers design devices, it is designed with the intent that the battery should be big enough to power the device itself and its own internal hardware for a certain period of time. Being able to power the device itself and also power external hardware while also having the battery to last the intended period of time means that a larger battery must be used in order to power the extra hardware without reducing how long the device can operate, this effects the size of the device this effects hardware design, this effects software design, these factors effect the costs of design and manufacture of the device(which get passed to the user). To power extra hardware means larger battery, which effects overall size of the device, amout of space to fit the other hardware inside the device, where and how each component is positioned without interfering, where heat is generated and how it is dissipated.
The heat I was referring to was heat generated inside the tablet by the "extra" activity of powering the external device and the extra load on the processor and performance loss due to operating over USB. More work means more heat, period, its a law.
Besides, the larger majority of users don't use tablets for the kinds of things you're talking about. This also comes into play when designing a device, why should they add a feature to suit a small demographic?
I'm giving you real world reasons why it isn't done from an engineering perspective.
You are giving me reasons why it "should" be done from a user perspective.
The engineering/cost perspective comes first because that is where the rubber meets the road, user perspective comes last.
If an engineer were to design a device for the express purposes that you have discussed, I can promise you that it wouldn't be a small, compact thing like a tablet.
There are plenty of powerful slim laptops that are comparable in size to some tablets and they can do the job better, for longer than a tablet can.
Do you think the average user would choose a device with less performance that has to be charged more often in order to be used the way you are describing? Or do you think the average user would choose a device that is better suited to the task and doesn't have to be charged as often?
Droidriven said:
As I already said, it has nothing to do with how much power a 2TB drive uses compared to a 4TB drive. When engineers design devices, it is designed with the intent that the battery should be big enough to power the device itself and its own internal hardware for a certain period of time. Being able to power the device itself and also power external hardware while also having the battery to last the intended period of time means that a larger battery must be used in order to power the extra hardware without reducing how long the device can operate, this effects the size of the device this effects hardware design, this effects software design, these factors effect the costs of design and manufacture of the device(which get passed to the user). To power extra hardware means larger battery, which effects overall size of the device, amout of space to fit the other hardware inside the device, where and how each component is positioned without interfering, where heat is generated and how it is dissipated.
The heat I was referring to was heat generated inside the tablet by the "extra" activity of powering the external device and the extra load on the processor and performance loss due to operating over USB. More work means more heat, period, its a law.
Besides, the larger majority of users don't use tablets for the kinds of things you're talking about. This also comes into play when designing a device, why should they add a feature to suit a small demographic?
I'm giving you real world reasons why it isn't done from an engineering perspective.
You are giving me reasons why it "should" be done from a user perspective.
The engineering/cost perspective comes first because that is where the rubber meets the road, user perspective comes last.
If an engineer were to design a device for the express purposes that you have discussed, I can promise you that it wouldn't be a small, compact thing like a tablet.
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What I'm saying is that most device can ALREADY POWER external HDD just fine. Basically any decent tablet which is not a cheap one can do it, easily. The only limit is the size. This has nothing to do with engineers, or power or whatever. They already went throgut that and we already have this feature. What is lacking now is support to bigger drives due to some lazyness I think.
Now, as I said there is already support to other filesystem, so you're free to use the same storage on different platforms, and, digging a bit: I've found this.
Also there is some interesting stuff about Android TV. Apparently you need to format through the OS in order to use it. I guess it would be ext4 or something like that, but still, playback and recording limit is way higher.
Also, digging more it seems that it is possible, although a bit messy. It works like 50% of the time for some reason, but it is possible. Is not native tho. This is what i'm complaining for.