Hi guys
As some of you know I've been having problems with my lg g2 and i think I'm going to give up and buy a new phone.
I've narrowed it down to either a HTC M8 or a Samsung S5.
I know there seems to be an unlimited amount of reviews on the internet but you cant always go by spec alone and to be honest a lot of them seem a bit biased or favour the htc just because its not as popular as a Samsung phone.
I actually went out to a phone shop today to buy the S5 but they had sold out and while i was in there i had a look at the M8 and i was really tempted to go for it.
The pros on both phones for me are (so you can get an idea on what I'm looking for in a phone):
Samsung S5:
1. Camera (this is a big one for me).
2. Reputable brand with a lot of service centres should things go wrong.
3. Parts easy to get.
4. takes a micro sd card.
I'm not too fussed about the gimmicks such as the finger print scanner, heart monitor, water resistance.
Bad points:
1. feels a bit like cheap plastic to hold.
HTC M8
1. Feels nicer to hold.
2. Knock on feature.
3. seems faster than the s5.
4. Takes a micro sd card.
Not too fussed about the boom sound speaker as my phone is on vibrate most of the time and i don't walk down the street playing music out of my phone (why do kids do that...lol)
Bad points:
1. Camera (i use my phones camera a lot).
2. I noticed that the display model in store had a lot of paint chips (it was gunmetal grey) so I'm not sure if this phone will stay looking good.
3. doesn't have a removable battery
Another thing you don't hear about in reviews.......
I always stock root my android phones so what one is the easiest to root and unroot if i need to return it under warranty.
And i remember when i rooted a htc one mini, that there was problems every time htc pushed out an update, is that the same with samsung.
What do you guys think?
Inked_ said:
Hi guys
As some of you know I've been having problems with my lg g2 and i think I'm going to give up and buy a new phone.
I've narrowed it down to either a HTC M8 or a Samsung S5.
I know there seems to be an unlimited amount of reviews on the internet but you cant always go by spec alone and to be honest a lot of them seem a bit biased or favour the htc just because its not as popular as a Samsung phone.
I actually went out to a phone shop today to buy the S5 but they had sold out and while i was in there i had a look at the M8 and i was really tempted to go for it.
The pros on both phones for me are (so you can get an idea on what I'm looking for in a phone):
Samsung S5:
1. Camera (this is a big one for me).
2. Reputable brand with a lot of service centres should things go wrong.
3. Parts easy to get.
4. takes a micro sd card.
I'm not too fussed about the gimmicks such as the finger print scanner, heart monitor, water resistance.
Bad points:
1. feels a bit like cheap plastic to hold.
HTC M8
1. Feels nicer to hold.
2. Knock on feature.
3. seems faster than the s5.
4. Takes a micro sd card.
Not too fussed about the boom sound speaker as my phone is on vibrate most of the time and i don't walk down the street playing music out of my phone (why do kids do that...lol)
Bad points:
1. Camera (i use my phones camera a lot).
2. I noticed that the display model in store had a lot of paint chips (it was gunmetal grey) so I'm not sure if this phone will stay looking good.
3. doesn't have a removable battery
Another thing you don't hear about in reviews.......
I always stock root my android phones so what one is the easiest to root and unroot if i need to return it under warranty.
And i remember when i rooted a htc one mini, that there was problems every time htc pushed out an update, is that the same with samsung.
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you wanna root, Samsung is a no go because of Knox. But since you require a good camera, you might want to consider Sony (but their boot loader unlocking process might be a little troublesome).
I'm not sure about HTCs as I've never touched one before. The boot loader might trouble you too, as with Sony devices.
My personal recommendation is an Oppo Find 7 or a One Plus One. Their rooting process is quite simple and AFAIK Oppo doesn't void warranty if you root in some countries.
Hope you get a good phone
Sent from a Nameless fellow licking Lollipop.
Singaporean Oppo Find 7a
Click that "Thanks" button if I helped you!
Irwenzhao said:
If you wanna root, Samsung is a no go because of Knox. But since you require a good camera, you might want to consider Sony (but their boot loader unlocking process might be a little troublesome).
I'm not sure about HTCs as I've never touched one before. The boot loader might trouble you too, as with Sony devices.
My personal recommendation is an Oppo Find 7 or a One Plus One. Their rooting process is quite simple and AFAIK Oppo doesn't void warranty if you root in some countries.
Hope you get a good phone
Sent from a Nameless fellow licking Lollipop.
Singaporean Oppo Find 7a
Click that "Thanks" button if I helped you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the reply
I've not read up on knox yet but I've read a lot of people have rooted their s5 without any problems
Something else I need to consider between the s5 and m8 is heat.
I'm sure the root cause of the problems with my g2 was it heating up while being on it a long time or watching videos.
Do any of these phone have heat issues?
Also what one should get the latest android os for the longest (I think htc guarantee a minimum of 2 years) ?
You should wait for the m9. Samsung is a definite no go if you want to root. Build quality is also very good on the m8 and will most likely improve with the m9.
I would highly suggest waiting g for the m9 as HTC is dumping their ultrapixel technology and the camera will most likely jump ALOT. It is rumored to be announced within the next month, but if not, then it should be announced by, let's say, April or May. If you don't want to wait, try maybe an Lg G3 or even a Nexus 5.
Cheers and happy device hunting!
ANDR01DN00B said:
You should wait for the m9. Samsung is a definite no go if you want to root. Build quality is also very good on the m8 and will most likely improve with the m9.
I would highly suggest waiting g for the m9 as HTC is dumping their ultrapixel technology and the camera will most likely jump ALOT. It is rumored to be announced within the next month, but if not, then it should be announced by, let's say, April or May. If you don't want to wait, try maybe an Lg G3 or even a Nexus 5.
Cheers and happy device hunting!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really cant wait so it needs to be the s5 or m8.
I've lost trust in lg and the nexus doesn't have a sd card slot.
Im actually shocked that your all saying that I shouldn't get the s5 because of root (I thought it would be something like the build quality...lol) as ive read loads of people have rooted their s5's.
I think they use something called towelroot and oden pro to flash the firmware?
I've just read that you can uninstall knox, is this true?
No you cannot uninstall Knox. The issue with the s5 is that when you install a custom recovery, it tells Knox something is wrong and your warranty becomes PERMANENTLY voided. Knox is permanent whether you are running a Touchwiz ROM or a Stock Android ROM.
Trust me if knox was uninstallable I would've bought the s4 over my m7.
The build quality is OK on the s5 but the m8 outplays it by 5,000,000%.
ANDR01DN00B said:
No you cannot uninstall Knox. The issue with the s5 is that when you install a custom recovery, it tells Knox something is wrong and your warranty becomes PERMANENTLY voided. Knox is permanent whether you are running a Touchwiz ROM or a Stock Android ROM.
Trust me if knox was uninstallable I would've bought the s4 over my m7.
The build quality is OK on the s5 but the m8 outplays it by 5,000,000%.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok thanks
The m8 seems a lot easier to root as you can still use htcdev...etc the only thing im not sure about is what to do when htc update thing like sense...etc as I remember there being a problem with update as htc detect the custom recovery.
The things that are holding me back from the M8 are:
1. No removable battery.
2. The camera (4 ultra pixel).
3. htc as a brand compared with the likes of Samsung (devs do more for Samsung and there's more accessories for Samsung).
4. s5 has a LOT more features.
If I could get me head passed all that then I would go for it....lol
I would go for the Htc
I've been using the Htc for the past few years, I've got friends whose got the S5 and the M8.
Sadly my friend with the S5 was pretty disappointed with the phone( I'll get to know more about the trouble when i meet him on monday) But however my friend with the M8 which he had used it for some time now, he never complains about it in fact it runs pretty smooth, but the only problem with the phone is the battery, or otherwise it's a real good phone. On my point of view i trust the Htc since it's made in my country and the service here is excellent.
I hope you made up your mind soon and will be happy with your new phone
Cheers!! (And sorry for the bad English):good:
Inked_ said:
ok thanks The m8 seems a lot easier to root as you can still use htcdev...etc the only thing im not sure about is what to do when htc update thing like sense...etc as I remember there being a problem with update as htc detect the custom recovery.
The things that are holding me back from the M8 are:
1. No removable battery.
2. The camera (4 ultra pixel).
3. htc as a brand compared with the likes of Samsung (devs do more for Samsung and there's more accessories for Samsung).
4. s5 has a LOT more features.
If I could get me head passed all that then I would go for it....lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well yes when you enter the bootloader after installing a custom recovery it will show "TAMPERED" at the top, but unlike knox, this can be reset/removed with S-OFF
1)I dont see the point in a removable battery (the battery is actually really good despite the smaller size)
2)Yeah... it's not the best and definitely could be the worst
3)There are still ALOT of cases for the m8 (even dome dope ones not for the m7 )
4)Those extra features are more gimmic-y really IMO and it does in fact take up more RAM and in turn battery
(yes, I am an HTC fanboy :silly
@SinkRate
Thanks for your input and there's nothing wrong with your english
@ANDR01DNOOB
So do you have the M8 ?
I suppose the battery isn't such a big issue as a lot of phones come without removable batteries now.
I've been using the HTC one mini for the past couple of days ( a loan while i sort out a phone) and I'm not really taking to it very much and I'm thinking that the m8 would just be an upgraded version of this.
How do you go about putting the phone back to stock for warranty?
Also what do you do when htc push out an update to your rooted phone?
I remember htc detecting root (i think it was the custom firmware) and not allowing the phone to install the updates.
No actually I don't have an m8 but I have spent 3+ days with one
A long process, and it requires soff, which some m8s aren't capable of having. If you need soff that bad, Sunshine will probably work with a charge of $25
Usually when an update is pushed out, you can install the stock recovery and flash the ota.
No no you're probably thinking of something else.
ANDR01DN00B said:
No actually I don't have an m8 but I have spent 3+ days with one
A long process, and it requires soff, which some m8s aren't capable of having. If you need soff that bad, Sunshine will probably work with a charge of $25
Usually when an update is pushed out, you can install the stock recovery and flash the ota.
No no you're probably thinking of something else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So really both S5 and M8 can be rooted and both of them have their own problems when it comes to unrooting them for warranty?
That was the problem I had, I looked everywhere for the stock recovery but I couldn't find it anywhere.
All I found was replies saying to put the update on the ignore list....lol
Inked_ said:
So really both S5 and M8 can be rooted and both of them have their own problems when it comes to unrooting them for warranty?
That was the problem I had, I looked everywhere for the stock recovery but I couldn't find it anywhere.
All I found was replies saying to put the update on the ignore list....lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... No phone is perfect.
Rooting the S5 does not necessarily trip KNOX. Stop that nonsense.
Installing a custom firmware or recovery trips KNOX. Not rooting, at least not all methods. You just need to do it before updating. The older the firmware, the easier it is.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/gal...2nd-method-t2843044/post54719865#post54719865
CF-Autoroot, however, does trigger it.
If you are in the EU KNOX is irrelevant.
Now, as for the rest.
A lot of people prefer HTC just because they have the desire to feel 'different' from the crowd, which they believe they can achieve by hating the largest brand. An ungodly amount of hipsters use HTC for that reason. This greatly affects people's opinions both here and in reviews. Samsung is starting to become what Apple is: hated for being popular.
Both phones will get warm. It's a powerhouse without any form of fan or heatsink. The cover is literally the only heatsink.
The M8 will get warmer because it's made of metal. That's the advantage of plastic. Plastic also dents and scratches a lot less. However, some have reported that the bezel of their S5 is loosing its metallic paint.
Personally I always use an otterbox case so I can't comment on the feel of the devices.
The camera on the S5 is much, much better.
The speaker quality of the M8 is enormously better.
The M8 is bigger and heavier, despite having a smaller screen size.
The S5 has an AMOLED screen. That means infinite contrast ratio, higher colour saturation (can be turned down), much better legible in direct sunlight and more battery efficient. (black=led off).
The M8 has an FM stereo. The S5 does not. If that matters (for many it does), keep that in mind.
The S5 has a lot of features, but nearly all of them can just be turned off with a simple toggle, or uninstalled/disabled even without root. My S5 uses about 800MB RAM without running apps. Not rooted. (did replace Touchwiz with Apex, saved me +-300MB) goes up to about 1.2GB when running Firefox, N7player, Facebook, Whatsapp and Gmail simultaneously.
The water&dust resistance is actually a useful gimmick in rainy countries.
You also need to physically look at the phones. Which one do you feel happier with just looking at it? Because if you truly don't like the look of one, you'll grow to dislike the phone itself eventually, regardless of its performance.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
maybe you can get that HTC, or maybe samsung
from my opinion samsung sometimes got overpriced
about camera issue, maybe it can help with a little retouch with app like photoshop touch (just opinion hehe
I like the HTC M8 but I think you should go for Samsung Galaxy S5. As you said that you use camera a lot, so I think Samsung Galaxy S5 will be the best option for you.
Update.......
Before I start, I want to give a HUGE thanks to everyone that replied in this thread (if I haven't clicked you thanks button then let me know...lol)
I went with the S5 in the end and although its early days I've got to say im loving it so far.
I've put a tempered glass screen protector on it and im getting a case for it tomorrow.
Strange thing is that I've clicked manage apps and I cant see anything related to knox,.
Does this mean that I can safely root it and install custom recovery....etc without voiding the warranty ?
Inked_ said:
Update.......
Before I start, I want to give a HUGE thanks to everyone that replied in this thread (if I haven't clicked you thanks button then let me know...lol)
I went with the S5 in the end and although its early days I've got to say im loving it so far.
I've put a tempered glass screen protector on it and im getting a case for it tomorrow.
Strange thing is that I've clicked manage apps and I cant see anything related to knox,.
Does this mean that I can safely root it and install custom recovery....etc without voiding the warranty ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go to download mode and check if there's something like this:
Code:
Knox Warranty Void: 0x0
or something like that.
As @ShadowLea said, rooting won't void warranty but flashing a custom ROM/Kernel/Recovery will.
Inked_ said:
Hi guys
As some of you know I've been having problems with my lg g2 and i think I'm going to give up and buy a new phone.
I've narrowed it down to either a HTC M8 or a Samsung S5.
I know there seems to be an unlimited amount of reviews on the internet but you cant always go by spec alone and to be honest a lot of them seem a bit biased or favour the htc just because its not as popular as a Samsung phone.
I actually went out to a phone shop today to buy the S5 but they had sold out and while i was in there i had a look at the M8 and i was really tempted to go for it.
The pros on both phones for me are (so you can get an idea on what I'm looking for in a phone):
Samsung S5:
1. Camera (this is a big one for me).
2. Reputable brand with a lot of service centres should things go wrong.
3. Parts easy to get.
4. takes a micro sd card.
I'm not too fussed about the gimmicks such as the finger print scanner, heart monitor, water resistance.
Bad points:
1. feels a bit like cheap plastic to hold.
HTC M8
1. Feels nicer to hold.
2. Knock on feature.
3. seems faster than the s5.
4. Takes a micro sd card.
Not too fussed about the boom sound speaker as my phone is on vibrate most of the time and i don't walk down the street playing music out of my phone (why do kids do that...lol)
Bad points:
1. Camera (i use my phones camera a lot).
2. I noticed that the display model in store had a lot of paint chips (it was gunmetal grey) so I'm not sure if this phone will stay looking good.
3. doesn't have a removable battery
Another thing you don't hear about in reviews.......
I always stock root my android phones so what one is the easiest to root and unroot if i need to return it under warranty.
And i remember when i rooted a htc one mini, that there was problems every time htc pushed out an update, is that the same with samsung.
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5_vs_htc_one_m8-review-1067.php
Here's a full comparrison.
The HTC One M8 has a pretty bad 4MP Camera Resolution which makes Low-Light photos actually better.
The S5 can take 4k-Videos higher than the M8's Maximum Photo Resolution.
But the M8 has a nice Aluminium Design and very good Stereo-Front Facing Speakers.
It also has blinkfeed, you can like it or not.
The Dual Camera of the M8 makes nice picture effects possible.
The S5 is Water-Resistant and has a slightly better processing power.
The M8 is NOT Water Resistant but maybe survives Toilet Crashes
Related
Sorry guys, looks like I'm done. Digitizer just went out and have lost complete touch responsiveness.. I have decided not to get an s3 or a n2. I'm not sure yet, but I might get the One. I've always loved HTC but if I'm going to do major research before getting another phone. If the One has unlocking issues or root issues its a no go. I do know it will be a phone that will most likely have no restrictions and ease of root. I am considering a nexus 4. If any of you have any input or advice on what I should get I'm all ears
if you are going for the one avoid pre order and let thing sittle a bit i heard the first shipments have various problems
Kole_Ackerson said:
Sorry guys, looks like I'm done. Digitizer just went out and have lost complete touch responsiveness.. I have decided not to get an s3 or a n2. I'm not sure yet, but I might get the One. I've always loved HTC but if I'm going to do major research before getting another phone. If the One has unlocking issues or root issues its a no go. I do know it will be a phone that will most likely have no restrictions and ease of root. I am considering a nexus 4. If any of you have any input or advice on what I should get I'm all ears
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go with the phone that android was made for. I love HTC myself, and when rooted, it is amazing. And like you said the One may take a while to ge the rooting taken care of. But the nexus 4 is a work of art. I don't like LG, but it really is something good. I messed around with some S3's, but too me it is a bunch of hype. If interested, you could get the S4 as well. Like the person above me said, don't pre-order. You will have the same hassle as iPhone pre-orders.
The One looks like a work of art. From an industrial design/build quality standpoint, it simply blows every other phone away. But if you read the AT&T One forum, there is some indication that the AT&T version may be blocked from being bootloader unlocked, just like the One X. Its not certain if this is true or not, until folks get their hands on it. So from that standpoint its probably good to wait. Of course even if the BL is locked, I have every confidence that the devs will crack it. But it sucks to have to play that waiting game again.
There is a Developer Edition of the One, available direct from HTC that is identical in hardware to the AT&T One, except it comes bootloader unlocked and SIM unlocked. But its sold out for the time being.
Samsung makes solid devices. But they just seem plastic and cheap compared to anything HTC has made recently. Or at least, uninspired designs that are just rehashes of their past devices. The GS4 looks just like the GS3, except slightly bigger in footprint and a tad thinner. And LG phones just make me cringe. HTC simply makes the best hardware around. Too bad that hardware have to be (slightly) marred by anti-dev security policies.
So, I have Had my AT&T Note edge since around April 2015. When I first Got the phone I was very happy with the new innovation of the edge screen and found it quite useful. Before, I had the Note 2 and I was in love with it, I had many different roms and dev's are still coming out with new roms for it and the only reason I got the new phone is because the screen cracked and I did not want to pay another 150$'s for a phone that was worth less than that on eBay.
Since receiving my note edge I have found nothing but problems with it (obviously after honeymoon period with the edge screen, lol). The battery life is abysmal at best, the screen transitions are slow and tedious at times, sometimes I have to launch the task manager and clean the apps(which that in enough itself is a challenge to get to launch), even if I am only using 20% of my memory. To put a little perspective on this, I have been rooting/jail breaking phones since the first iPhone came out back in 2007 and I have also switched out hardware on phones so I do know what I am doing and I realized when I bought the phone that it may be a while till a decent root/rom came out for the phone but honestly not one root or one rom for the AT&T note edge has come out.
I bought the phone knowing I would have to wait for a root/rom but I did not expect stock to be so terrible. Even after the lollipop update, the phone may have gotten a little worse, to the point where sometimes my screen will stay black when I get a phone call then when the phone almost stops ringing the screen will come on and I can then answer (most of the time). To say I am disappointed in Samsung would be an understatement. Mind you, I fell in love with my note 2 and had it until it was non functioning anymore and more expensive to fix than replace. I have nothing but praise for Samsung but they really let me down with this phone.
I have taken all the steps I can think of to increase performance even to the point of just wiping it clean and starting from scratch and it's still no where close to the performance of my note 2
All this is to ask if anyone out there can give me some suggestions of a phone that A) has the ability to be rooted B) has sufficient roms out there to test out and find a good one. Money is not a problem but I figured that this would be one of the best places to ask because I am sure all you note edge fanboys and girls were looking at other phones before you decided on the note edge and I am sure there are other people like me who probably had too high of expectations for the note edge.
I would also consider staying with the edge if the root/rom would come out soon, but I honestly don't see that happening in the near future.
Also one last thing, I am not opposed to any brand or model I just prefer a 5" screen or bigger. Also, I have checked out the Neptune Suite which looks incredible. unfortunately, I can't post a link but just search it and you'll find it.
You can get root. It's just tough. The recommended way (depending on your variant) is to get CWM and root through recovery then flash whatever recovery you want to use. For me its TWRP. The above method works on my SM-N915G.
One thing I have seen and am a bit butt hurt by is the significant downturn on custom roms for this device, or at least for my variant. The note 4 has had heaps of dev work however this beauty of a phone has been neglected. More than likely die to uptake. I just hope that they bring out an edge 2 this year and that is widely taken up, so we can get some damn customisation. I hate this 5.0.1 touch wiz rom. I have constant lag issues and its just not on. However I digress. It's a beast of a phone. Just don't expect to many roms available seeing as it is hitting end of life i.e. new version coming soon
Flame_Beard said:
You can get root. It's just tough. The recommended way (depending on your variant) is to get CWM and root through recovery then flash whatever recovery you want to use. For me its TWRP. The above method works on my SM-N915G.
One thing I have seen and am a bit butt hurt by is the significant downturn on custom roms for this device, or at least for my variant. The note 4 has had heaps of dev work however this beauty of a phone has been neglected. More than likely die to uptake. I just hope that they bring out an edge 2 this year and that is widely taken up, so we can get some damn customisation. I hate this 5.0.1 touch wiz rom. I have constant lag issues and its just not on. However I digress. It's a beast of a phone. Just don't expect to many roms available seeing as it is hitting end of life i.e. new version coming soon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree with you that the note edge is a beast. It has all the features I was looking for in a phone EXCEPT the fact that the rooting is a mission and when you're finally done, there is little to no reward. I would have rooted a while ago but the root seems fishy at best and the temp root... well, its a temp root, lol. I miss my note 2 just for the pure simple fact that they had every single rom you could think of for that thing, hell, I would even switch to the note 4 if it was more heavily supported. Honestly, I am just saddened by AT&T's choice to lock everything and Samsung's horrific TouchWiz UI. We all know its awful. I am a die hard samsung fanboy but man, they are letting the ball drop. like the note 5, possible no removable back? What is this HTC?! I hope AT&T/Samsung realize that locking the bootloader is a pointless exercise. What modder out there ever returns their stuff for warranty?! Enough of the rant. I am most likely going to be switching to T-mobile by the end of this year(for other reasons than the phone) and was wondering if there is a better options than the note edge coming soon?
Flame_Beard said:
You can get root. It's just tough. The recommended way (depending on your variant) is to get CWM and root through recovery then flash whatever recovery you want to use. For me its TWRP. The above method works on my SM-N915G.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
also, from everything I have read, there is no secure root for the SM-N915A. I could be wrong but I don't think so unfortunately
mikeyvalentine said:
also, from everything I have read, there is no secure root for the SM-N915A. I could be wrong but I don't think so unfortunately
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is ROOT, for an SM-N915A but you have to be on kitkat and NOT lollipop. Also root for this device is "TEMP" and not permanent, after a reboot, you loose root.
IceTwig said:
There is ROOT, for an SM-N915A but you have to be on kitkat and NOT lollipop. Also root for this device is "TEMP" and not permanent, after a reboot, you loose root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the problem, If it was a perm root. I wouldn't be so negative about this phone but since its only Temp. I feel like I kind of got cheated with this phone. It's powerful but a hog with its power, its got a great display but mainly because of the edge, and a nice size battery that, again, gets killed by the display(even at low brightness) I might have just got a lemon from the start, its happened before. I just wish that rooting this phone was easier and more satisfying than "oh sweet, I was able to root my phone! Better not restart and better be okay with the non existent roms out for it right now!"
More than likely because when Samsung released this model, they initially said that they were going to drop only 1000 units so as to "test the market waters" for the device. So sad to see because she really is a beaut. I won't be moving to a Note 4, I have a new phone owed to me by my carrier this month, so I will be waiting to see what this years Note/Note Edge offering is and I will make the change then, Fingers crossed they do run with the Note Edge design. Also too, if they follow suit with their Note lines of phone as they have with Their Galaxy S line (no expandable memory, no removable back plate) I will not be buying Samsung again. Other than the lengthy feature set for the Note Edge, the fact that they have expandable memory was the tipping point for me. Failing that I will be going elsewhere from now on. Sad to say it, but Samsung is following in Apples footsteps by telling the consumer what they can and cannot do with a device that they choose to buy.
I never thought I would be writing anything like this but wanted to share my initial thoughts of this device. I have been extremely loyal to HTC over the years with my first real smart phone being the Touch Pro 1, TP2, evo4G wimax, evo3D wimax, evo LTE, M7, M8 & M9. With rumors of the M10 ditching boomsound this year, I had enough. I firmly believed HTC designed and manufactured superior products over Samsung for many years but could never get ahead due to poor leadership at HTC such as messing up the camera & marketing to name a few. That said I don't think that is the case anymore. I saw the build quality jump on the S6 & now with the release of the S7 I don't see how HTC can keep running if the leaked M10 renders are true. I have worked and setup many Samsung phones over the years but this is my first real hands on for myself and wanted to share my initial thoughts on what stood out.
Build Quality: My M9 still feels more solid & premium over the S7 edge. That said the S7 edge certainly looks the part of premium and still a huge step up in build quality over previous S5 and below models.
Bloat/UI: I have always not liked TouchWiz and always preferred sense. While this is certainly more feature packed, many things on the phones are worthless and it still feels pretty bloated. I really miss the big HTC weather clock I have been using since the touch pro.
Boomsound: One of my favorite features of the M9 which rumors of ditching it on M10 caused me to be done. While the speaker sounds decent on this phone, covering it up while watching videos is annoying and you just can't replace front facing stereo speakers.
Rooting: I have been rooting for years, HTC has also been fairly root friendly with the exception of the evo3D and encrypted boot loader. M7, M8 & M9 I have all S-OFF for full control which I love. With Samsung having Knox, I have to choose between a warranty void or locked down phone. Yes HTC voided the warranty as well but if you had S-OFF you could reverse everything there is no e-fuse. Xposed on touchwiz roms from what I know isn't as friendly on Samsung devices having to use custom versions to get it to work.
Those things I already was well aware of, so the things I like so far that have stood out to me.
The screen: Higher resolution, always on display and colors have more pop. Screen is very nice, especially with a little bigger display. The edge I find pretty cool as well.
Notification Light: Much bigger and noticeable light on the Galaxy the my HTC. Might not be a big deal to some, but I like it.
Thin: Feels thinner and lighter than my M9 while still having a bigger screen.
Gear VR: While this is super cool and pretty wild, the resolution on the Gear VR sucks. Feels like watching 240P youtube videos. That said it's still pretty cool, it's cheap and I'm sure future versions are going to be insane.
Buttons: While I find a finger print scanner worthless, have a physical home button I like along with back lit back and recent apps keys vs having them on screen. I highly prefer this layout over on screen which means more usable screen. The M7 had this and the M8 they moved to on screen while still have the HTC black bar which I thought was just stupid and wasted screen space. I like how Samsung has it layed out.
I haven't had the device that long but this is my initial reaction after a short period of time with the phone. I wouldn't be oppose to going back to HTC in the coming years (if they are even around) if they can get there act together as I do prefer a lot of things on the HTC. There are a lot of other features other people might value more than me that I didn't even mention. My biggest concern at this point in time is if I want to trip knox or not as you can't go back. I'm leaning towards yes even if it breaks Samsung Pay as I really like having xposed assuming it works on this phone and of course full root access which I have become dependent on.
I understand what you are saying. I've been a completely dedicated HTC customer for about 12 years. My first HTC was the PPC-6600 Harrier (back in 2004 I believe). The last one was the OneMax. I have not been happy with anything they have made after that. They have cut corners and sacrificed features in an effort to save money. When they should be building better products.
So I decided to try Samsung. Although it is smaller than I would like, I'll make the best of it. But if the Edge Plus comes out is "Sept" as I've read, I'll most likely go with it.
I'm not going to compare the features of these phones. But I will say this, I do like Sense system more. And as soon as I root this it will have Sense apps and widgets.
I just read that root may not be possible on this phone. I'll give it a week and see how I really like it. But I'm thinking of taking it back and waiting on a larger screen Samsung or HTC.
It's not bad. I just don't know if I like it enough without root to keep it for very long. And if I'm going to take it back in don't have long.
Wow you have been even more loyal then me. HTC TP1 was my first real Smart phone. I use to buy Samsung flip phones A940 if you remember that which by the way had awesome speakers on it and even an accelerometer. I have actually been pretty happy with HTC's products. Boomsound on the M7 was fantastic, they did mess up the camera though while it took good lowlight shows, the resolution was awful and 4MP just isn't enough. Part of the reason I stayed away from the Galaxy for so long, I just viewed it as an over priced plastic phone which didn't feel premium at all. I noticed a change on the S6 last year which is when I for the first time considered changing. People didn't brace the M9, so they release the A9 to compete with itself just idiot leadership at HTC. Now the M10 no boomsound? They just seem to be going backwards. While I already really miss my front facing speakers on the M9, the features on the S7 edge are amazing. Not only am I done with HTC for the time being, but I have kept lots of friends loyal to the HTC brand. Not saying I wouldn't ever go back but losing super loyal customers like yourself & I is what could put HTC under.
Looks like this phone may never have root or anything custom as the bootloader is locked. Coming from S-OFF devices to a device locked down like fort knox sucks. I already miss root, Xposed, AdAway & TI just to name a few. Even if we get root it will trip knox rendering certain features useless like Samsung Pay which I would prob rather have root than Samsung Pay but I haven't tried it out yet. I'm gonna stick with it for now see what happens, I just think devices are only going to become more secure and locked down as we move forward.
As far as you waiting for the edge +, it will be interesting how they do that this year if at all since the S7 edge really isn't that much smaller than the Note 5 where last years S6 edge was smaller. I really like the size of the phone, lots of screen but doesn't feel too big. I do miss sense as well, I have never been a fan of TouchWiz and the amount of bloat on this thing is unbelievable but it can be cleaned up. I knew what I was getting into. I'm gonna stick with it for now as I think the pro's outway the cons at least at the moment.
Sim-X said:
Wow you have been even more loyal then me. HTC TP1 was my first real Smart phone. I use to buy Samsung flip phones A940 if you remember that which by the way had awesome speakers on it and even an accelerometer. I have actually been pretty happy with HTC's products. Boomsound on the M7 was fantastic, they did mess up the camera though while it took good lowlight shows, the resolution was awful and 4MP just isn't enough. Part of the reason I stayed away from the Galaxy for so long, I just viewed it as an over priced plastic phone which didn't feel premium at all. I noticed a change on the S6 last year which is when I for the first time considered changing. People didn't brace the M9, so they release the A9 to compete with itself just idiot leadership at HTC. Now the M10 no boomsound? They just seem to be going backwards. While I already really miss my front facing speakers on the M9, the features on the S7 edge are amazing. Not only am I done with HTC for the time being, but I have kept lots of friends loyal to the HTC brand. Not saying I wouldn't ever go back but losing super loyal customers like yourself & I is what could put HTC under.
Looks like this phone may never have root or anything custom as the bootloader is locked. Coming from S-OFF devices to a device locked down like fort knox sucks. I already miss root, Xposed, AdAway & TI just to name a few. Even if we get root it will trip knox rendering certain features useless like Samsung Pay which I would prob rather have root than Samsung Pay but I haven't tried it out yet. I'm gonna stick with it for now see what happens, I just think devices are only going to become more secure and locked down as we move forward.
As far as you waiting for the edge +, it will be interesting how they do that this year if at all since the S7 edge really isn't that much smaller than the Note 5 where last years S6 edge was smaller. I really like the size of the phone, lots of screen but doesn't feel too big. I do miss sense as well, I have never been a fan of TouchWiz and the amount of bloat on this thing is unbelievable but it can be cleaned up. I knew what I was getting into. I'm gonna stick with it for now as I think the pro's outway the cons at least at the moment.
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TW vs Sense... minor annoyance. I got used toit, I'm sure you can too.
Root vs Samsung pay... well, that's a little bit more complicated. Samsung pay works only with certain (quite limited) cards and banks. So far for me only AMEX and Citi credit card are supported. You need to find out first, whether you have a card that's supported otherwise this whole dilemma is moot. I live without root since last year's Note 5. Samsung pay is just more valuable to me than a few tweaks I can easily live without. It's quick, convenient and it just works. The only place so far I found it doesn't work is Walmart. Because Walmart registers don't support NFC and if you have a card with chip, they won't accept magnetic swipe. (which Samsung pay simulates if no NFC is possible)..
Stank0 said:
TW vs Sense... minor annoyance. I got used toit, I'm sure you can too.
Root vs Samsung pay... well, that's a little bit more complicated. Samsung pay works only with certain (quite limited) cards and banks. So far for me only AMEX and Citi credit card are supported. You need to find out first, whether you have a card that's supported otherwise this whole dilemma is moot. I live without root since last year's Note 5. Samsung pay is just more valuable to me than a few tweaks I can easily live without. It's quick, convenient and it just works. The only place so far I found it doesn't work is Walmart. Because Walmart registers don't support NFC and if you have a card with chip, they won't accept magnetic swipe. (which Samsung pay simulates if no NFC is possible)..
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Samsung Pay has been working for me at Walmart since Sept of 2015. I use a chipped Chase visa card. Be sure to tell the cashier it's a credit card & tell them you have the security numbers if they ask (which is the last 4 digits of your CC).
Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk
I might have to give it a try at Wal-Mart and see how I like it. I had Google Wallet back in the day on evo LTE with very limited retailers at the time it would work at. When it did work it wasn't the smoothest so since then I haven't been using anything. I don't see Samsung Pay being valuable to me, but you make a good point if it doesn't work for my cards then decision should be easy. That said if the bootloader is locked from what I have read this year it is on Sprint then unless that changes there will be no knox trip anyway. I'll give it a whirl see if I like it, I have a chase card I can try at wal-mart next time I go.
optimummind said:
Samsung Pay has been working for me at Walmart since Sept of 2015. I use a chipped Chase visa card. Be sure to tell the cashier it's a credit card & tell them you have the security numbers if they ask (which is the last 4 digits of your CC).
Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Your Walmart must have upgraded their card readers. The Walmart I'm using does not accept magnetic swipe if your card is chipped. It will reject it and say to use the chip reader. Samsung pay emulates magnetic swipe so when I try it, it tells me to use the chip reader. They also don't have a NFC sensor, so I can't use it there. But that's a minor annoyance. I'm not frequent shopper at walmart anyway.
---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Chase should work AFAIK.
I've tried Google Wallet before too but that was a huge PITA. This is a completely different game. This Samsung Pay thing is actually useful.
Stank0 said:
Your Walmart must have upgraded their card readers. The Walmart I'm using does not accept magnetic swipe if your card is chipped. It will reject it and say to use the chip reader. Samsung pay emulates magnetic swipe so when I try it, it tells me to use the chip reader. They also don't have a NFC sensor, so I can't use it there. But that's a minor annoyance. I'm not frequent shopper at walmart anyway.
---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Chase should work AFAIK.
I've tried Google Wallet before too but that was a huge PITA. This is a completely different game. This Samsung Pay thing is actually useful.
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My Walmart has a card swipe On the right side + a chip card receptacle on the bottom.
Sometimes it doesn't work the first time but it's been due to cashier mistakes.
Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk
optimummind said:
Sometimes it doesn't work the first time but it's been due to cashier mistakes.
Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk
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That wouldn't surprise me at all.
I don't have to be right ALL the time.
Been using htc android phones since the Dream on t-mobile.
I jumped on the S7 edge because of the aesthetically pleasing display, but more importantly because I had an old M8 that was chugging along. If the M10 had come out this month I would probably went with that. I may return the S7 edge and wait out till the M10 due to the seemingly large hurdles with how locked down it is.
Shame, since I really believe this is easily the best Samsung phone I have touched, but no foreseeable xposed functionality is a big no no in the long-term for me.
Slayix312 said:
Been using htc android phones since the Dream on t-mobile.
I jumped on the S7 edge because of the aesthetically pleasing display, but more importantly because I had an old M8 that was chugging along. If the M10 had come out this month I would probably went with that. I may return the S7 edge and wait out till the M10 due to the seemingly large hurdles with how locked down it is.
Shame, since I really believe this is easily the best Samsung phone I have touched, but no foreseeable xposed functionality is a big no no in the long-term for me.
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Click to collapse
I'm missing Xposed as well
Still liking it? I had my OneMax replace by Asuron. I got the LG flex 2. Its not a bad phone. With Xposed, debloated andall the Sense apps; the damn thing acts just like an HTC. But with a better screen.
Ive read the HTC 10 is going to be a tiny 5.1".
Ill hang on to this till someone makes a rootable 5.7-5.9"
Hi guys, I am this close to getting a U11. I will be upgrading from a Galaxy Note 3 (yes, I am still using a phone after five years).
I have only had samsung since my Nokia N900 died and I got a Galaxy S2 as a warranty replacement. I have never had an Android phone I didn't root - mainly for ad blocking (critical for my mental health) and a couple of xposed apps I may or may not need with a newer phone. Plus of course just removing bloat. I have been running custom roms for ages as well, just never quite happy with stock samsung.
I really like a clean, simple but nice looking setup and I need good GPS/navigation, good battery life (web, phone, word documents, email etc... not gaming or video so much).
I simply don't like the look of the current Samsung options, I do not like the curve-around edges of the S8 or S9 screens. I am pretty sure I prefer a physical home button although I guess maybe I could get used to an all-screen phone. It is also getting pretty clear that Samsung does not want you to root, customise etc.
I want to get something I'll still have for a while. Am I going to be able to ad block thoroughly, with or without root? Will I find the screen a bit too dim (some reviews seem to say this)? Did I read something about HTC changing warranty policy on rooted phones? What was that?
Help me out; I am pretty tempted but for me it's a big step to change brands!
anthropoidape said:
Hi guys, I am this close to getting a U11. I will be upgrading from a Galaxy Note 3 (yes, I am still using a phone after).
I have only had samsung since my Nokia N900 died and I got a Galaxy S2 as a warranty replacement. I have never had an Android phone I didn't root - mainly for ad blocking (critical for my mental health) and a couple of xposed apps I may or may not need with a newer phone. Plus of course just removing bloat. I have been running custom roms for ages as well, just never quite happy with stock samsung.
I really like a clean, simple but nice looking setup and I need good GPS/navigation, good battery life (web, phone, word documents, email etc... not gaming or video so much).
I simply don't like the look of the current Samsung options, I do not like the curve-around edges of the S8 or S9 screens. I am pretty sure I prefer a physical home button although I guess maybe I could get used to an all-screen phone. It is also getting pretty clear that Samsung does not want you to root, customise etc.
I want to get something I'll still have for a while. Am I going to be able to ad block thoroughly, with or without root? Will I find the screen a bit too dim (some reviews seem to say this)? Did I read something about HTC changing warranty policy on rooted phones? What was that?
Help me out; I am pretty tempted but for me it's a big step to change brands!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. You can use adblock app without root like adguard, I and with root, I just use adaway with symlinking host filr or install cleanslate kernel
2. Never had an issue with screen too dim when going out
3. When you root, I you lost warranty, i think?
Actually screen of U11 is pretty bright, it is the U11+ that most reviewers call too dim.
I was in South Africa some weeks ago and even there i had no problems in direct sunlight with my U11. Maybe there are some even brighter devices but U11 is completely fine.
My only worries for you would be the glass back if you plan to keep it again for that long time. (and maybe not changeable battery).
But that point(s) i would have to say about almost any device nowadays. They just arent as sturdy as older phones were. Drop them and they break.
Hi, if i didn't post that in the right section feel free to tell me and move it at the right place.
I have a stock S7 (sm-g930w8) for two years and it's time to choose if I replace it or not (if not I get a new phone for my daughter).
I still love my S7 and for what I've found the difference between him and the S9 are not that big. Other phone I could get are the P20 pro, pixel 3 LG G7 and thé Sony Xperia XZ1.
My S7 is in a otterbox symmetry and a glass screen protector and I never managed to break it (i drop it a couple of times a week) and I'm afraid that a newer phone will be less sturdy.
Should I keep it for another two years or replace it?
osotech said:
Hi, if i didn't post that in the right section feel free to tell me and move it at the right place.
I have a stock S7 (sm-g930w8) for two years and it's time to choose if I replace it or not (if not I get a new phone for my daughter).
I still love my S7 and for what I've found the difference between him and the S9 are not that big. Other phone I could get are the P20 pro, pixel 3 LG G7 and thé Sony Xperia XZ1.
My S7 is in a otterbox symmetry and a glass screen protector and I never managed to break it (i drop it a couple of times a week) and I'm afraid that a newer phone will be less sturdy.
Should I keep it for another two years or replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
S7 is still a great phone and has a powerful processor in it wich can go upto 2.6 ghz on 2 cores. (Exynos). Bigger phones like the s9 may be more vulnerable to glass damage because of the size. Id prefer to keep it as long its stable
osotech said:
Hi, if i didn't post that in the right section feel free to tell me and move it at the right place.
I have a stock S7 (sm-g930w8) for two years and it's time to choose if I replace it or not (if not I get a new phone for my daughter).
I still love my S7 and for what I've found the difference between him and the S9 are not that big. Other phone I could get are the P20 pro, pixel 3 LG G7 and thé Sony Xperia XZ1.
My S7 is in a otterbox symmetry and a glass screen protector and I never managed to break it (i drop it a couple of times a week) and I'm afraid that a newer phone will be less sturdy.
Should I keep it for another two years or replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is nothing and I mean NOTHING extraordinary about any device after Sammy 6 period! It's just "oh look at me with my new $1000 phone that does everything my old one did".
So keep the S7, I'm waiting for holographic interface that's when I'll upgrade when I can see a hologram of the person I'm speaking to. Now that will be amazing.
Stick with S7. At least 1 year more until the release of s11, a more refined phone. S10 has bugs and downsides here and there.
In the meantime we'll enjoy new pie roms, because Android pie has been released for note 7 Fe, that has the same hardware, therefore a s10 port will soon come out. It's enough to survive one year more until a more satisfactory phone will be released.
user154 said:
Im sorry if this is a little off topic to this thread,
Whats the deal with selling these on after knox is tripped, my partner has an s7 and she would like to try some custom roms but I havent really kept up with samsung development since s6.
I know obviously with a completely stock rom where knox had been tripped certain things wont work (most notably banking apps) obviously can't really sell a phone on that isnt actually fully working. Basically im looking for a way that I can return the phone to one that looks and acts like stock with the exceptions of TWRP still installed and knox showing as tripped in DL mode
I can see there are a few kernels which allow these features to be used on a device where knox is tripped, my questions are as follows:
1: Are any of these kernels stable enough that the device could be sold on with one installed, that would provide an experience close to stock in terms of reliability and stability?
2: Would the device display any warning message on boot about knox being tripped? My s5 for example would have yellow text on boot that said something about the warranty bit being tripped
3: I assume that it would be ok to unpack system.img from stock firmware then repack as a flashable zip (this would be much easier way to return to stock, and still use a custom kernel)
Morally I know this is a bit sketchy. I dont want to con anyone I just dont expect average joe bloggs that buys this device on our local facebook selling page to have any clue about custom roms/kernels/recoveries. Really just want to play with some custom roms, and then be able to sell the phone on, without anyone having any problems using it.
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Click to collapse
Your right it's wrong to sell a phone where certain apps will no longer function.
When knox is tripped there's no warning on boot with the S7 only the counter which shows when you boot into download mode so it's not difficult to find out if know is tripped or not. Of course no warranty or service with a know tripped phone from Sammy Sung either.
Samsung pay and lots of banking apps won't run as has been reported on the forum with knox tripped. However some of my banking apps work and some don't, it depends how the banking app makes a secure connection to it's severs.
So aside from them issues there are custom stock firmware where you can flash a custom kernal (Moro kernal really stable with stock) and the phone will look and feel like stock, The Galaxy Project is one such ROM. There are others in the rom section.
In comparison to earlier phone and dependant on Exynos (easy) or Qualcomm (nightmare) hardware, the S7 is no more difficult than the S6,5,4,3,2,1 to mess about with. Straight forward to root and TWRP (Exynos) little bit more difficult on Qualcom. But if you going o sell it i'd list it with knox tripped because they're going for not much anyway, $100 - 150.
user154 said:
Yes I most certainly would not want to sell a device to someone that wasn't 100% functional, this is why I wanted to get some clarification before going ahead and flashing TWRP, not being able to sell the device without feeling I've screwed someone over is a deal breaker (me and my parner use second hand phones and once or twice a year try and sell whatever we have at the higher end of the price range they are going for while simultaneously picking up a newer model at the lower end of the price range so we can upgrade without having to spend too much out)
I dont think I explained very well in my first post, I dont want to hide the fact that knox has been tripped as such. I dont think the fact knox has been tripped is too much of an issue as long as everything works, the phone is well out of warranty and for what samsung would want to repair it wouldnt really be worth sending it to them, especiallybgiven how cheap you can pick up a decent condition 2nd hand one, about £100 here in the uk.
I just think that seeing as whoever buys it will likely not understand anything about custom roms, or even know such a thing exists, a red/yellow warning text on boot that they dont understand would most likely completely put them off buying it. However knox being displayed as void in DL mode probabaly wouldnt be so off putting to someone that doesn't understand this sort of thing and just wants a phone that works.
So is there no custom kernel that will allow knox dependent apps to work? I had a look around the forum and a few claimed to have this feature, maybe I have misunderstood. Usually I would find out about different roms and kernels by flashing them myself and seeing how I got on with them. Sadly in this case dont really have that luxury without knowing that it would be able to be put back to a state where it was completely functional, and useable by someone that has no knowledge of this sort of thing without them running into any stability or performance issues. This is more what I'm trying to find out, whether the device can be put back to this state before I go ahead and flash TWRP. Sorry, I forgot to mention this is the exynos variant I'm talking about
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Click to collapse
With an S7 the knox trip is an eMMC so it's hardware trip not software which makes it very difficult to get around. When the S7 boots it looks at a firmware file on the boot image before it does anything else to see the knox status. I've seen people claiming to have got Sam Pay working on a knox tripped device but it's very difficult to understand how they've done it and i'm not convinced it's possible myself.
With regards to flashing back to stock, You can always flash the S7 back to stock no matter what you do to it as long as you have Odin and Oreo firmware, so yeah go ahead and install what you want, mess around with kernals, try everything just make sure FRP lock is turned off before doing anything.
osotech said:
Hi, if i didn't post that in the right section feel free to tell me and move it at the right place.
I have a stock S7 (sm-g930w8) for two years and it's time to choose if I replace it or not (if not I get a new phone for my daughter).
I still love my S7 and for what I've found the difference between him and the S9 are not that big. Other phone I could get are the P20 pro, pixel 3 LG G7 and thé Sony Xperia XZ1.
My S7 is in a otterbox symmetry and a glass screen protector and I never managed to break it (i drop it a couple of times a week) and I'm afraid that a newer phone will be less sturdy.
Should I keep it for another two years or replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
in the end, its up to you, but it cannot go without saying that the difference in phone has drastically decreased from the time of the galaxy S5 to the S9 than it was from the S to the S5. The change seems to be picking up speed again, so it may not be the wisest thing to upgrade now. The S7 is still a venerable beast. Hard to give ti up if your battery is still good. I rocked my S5 for almost 4 years, so i dont blame anyone for keeping their current handset if its still doing what they need it to.
user154 said:
Yes I most certainly would not want to sell a device to someone that wasn't 100% functional, this is why I wanted to get some clarification before going ahead and flashing TWRP, not being able to sell the device without feeling I've screwed someone over is a deal breaker
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Click to collapse
But what is 100% functional depends on your standpoint. I only buy 100% functional phones, but for me that means they must have unlocked bootloader. So I would gladly take any Samsung with Knox tripped or warranty void - because I would never be able to use it anyway and don't care. My safety and privacy has top priority for me - and convenience is up there as well. So if you want to be safe, just mention it in the sale description - the people who understand won't mind the least or not buy. The opposite is true though - if I want a phone and TWRP is/has been on it I can be sure it could work for me and I don't need to do stupid research if it can be unlocked.
For me it's a selling point!!! Don't worry - it's not "wear" on the phone. Bet hardly anyone is using that anyway, so 95% of people would never notice.