There is no single issue that plagues the mods and admins on XDA more than the question of how much control developers should have over their open source work that is posted to the site. This topic encompasses many questions:
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
That last one is the toughest, and it has historically caused all sort of arguments, anger, and even rage-quitting by devs-- who think we don't respect their work-- and even mods who feel like they are trying their best but are never appreciated.
What we want to do is publicly reset the discussion. For now, let's ignore the current rules of XDA (including the oft-argued-about rule 12) and try to discuss what our rules *should* be. Hopefully everyone will see that there are two very legitimate sides of this argument where reasonable people can disagree. What's worse-- each and every situation-- each accusation of kanging or code stealing or donation stealing-- is unique. Do we have the ability to investigate and police each one?
Let's start with some apologies on our end: our rules can be confusing, and they can be sometimes inconsistently applied. We are sorry for that. The only excuse we have for those failings is a) this is a difficult and confusing topic and b) we have a small army of volunteer mods—they won’t all interpret rules the same way every time. The good news about having a volunteer mod team is that there are no ulterior motives; they want to do what's right-- for the site, for the developers, and for the broader community.
But still, as the moderators discuss these issues, considering individual grievances by developers and the prospect of completely rewriting our rules, there is no clear "right" answer. We know that the developers are the lifeblood of XDA. We want to respect them and respect their work. That's not always so easy.
Here's a simple hypothetical: a user (dev 2) recompiles the ROM of an original developer (dev 1) with no changes and posts it as a new thread on XDA. Dev 1 complains.
Argument 1: Dev 2 is stealing code. What's more, we want to keep Dev 1 happy-- because he brings so much to XDA. We should remove the thread and infract Dev 2.
Argument 2: Wait a minute! This is open source code built on the backs of other open source developers over years and decades. The licenses permit all sorts of redistribution and modification. Why should XDA take down code that is *legally* used just because Dev 1 complains? This is how open source works! We want Dev 2 to grow as a developer. Maybe that starts as kanging or small tweaks but eventually turns into true original development.
Ok, so I'm not sure which side of this you came out on. But let's add a few complications.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
- What if Dev 2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
And that's just a single set of 8 or 9 very similar circumstances. We could come up with these hypotheticals all day.
The good news is that there are all sorts of legal ways for developers to control their code, and XDA will comply with all legitimate legal notices. Because AOSP was released under the Apache Software License 2.0 (rather than a copyleft license), ROM developers often have significant leeway to restrict use of their original code through licensing. Trademarks are another legitimate way to ensure that a developer's brand is not harmed by another dev re-releasing their code. Given the complexities of the above questions, some moderators believe that following copyrights and trademarks should be our *only* rule related to this topic. These moderators want to educate developers, working with them to ensure their work is properly protected.
But the reality is that certain devs don't want to be bothered with licenses, which is a perfectly legitimate stance for people who are largely doing this work for fun and for the benefit of the community. And so problems and arguments arise constantly. The arguments are not just among devs and mods but also among mods and other mods who want to handle these complaints differently. Sometimes things get personal and public.
Our initial answer has been to create a new Developer Relations team made up of senior mods and experienced developers. This provides a consolidated place for developers to make their voices heard. The team works directly with site admins and owners to get easy-to-address concerns addressed quickly. But not all concerns are easy to address.
Ok, so let's talk. What should XDA's policy be regarding sharing of code? Our only desire is to come up with a common sense solution that respects all side and (hopefully) honors the open source ethos. We are one community, and we are in this together.
Thanks,
The XDA Mod Team
Edit:
js1999 Administrator
Today, 07:48 AM |#255
posted planned changes for XDA here
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=71664958&postcount=255
Others have post much better replies than I could
so I will just try to use this post for update about this discussion
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
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Yes, or at least be able to close or limit thread to certain members (senior members or higher)
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users?
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move to a dedicated Q and A/ troubleshooting thread
more thoughts on this later.,..
What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
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I don't see how unauthorized Kangs can be dealt with, unless someone who recognized the work, reports it
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
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Yes, Paypal, Bitcoin...
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work?
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I don't thinks so, as long as they include their sources, give credit to other for their work, and include links to said work.
What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
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Unless proper credit was not given, I don't believe anything should be done.
That last one is the toughest, and it has historically caused all sort of arguments, anger, and even rage-quitting by devs-- who think we don't respect their work-- and even mods who feel like they are trying their best but are never appreciated.
What we want to do is publicly reset the discussion. For now, let's ignore the current rules of XDA (including the oft-argued-about rule 12) and try to discuss what our rules *should* be. Hopefully everyone will see that there are two very legitimate sides of this argument where reasonable people can disagree. What's worse-- each and every situation-- each accusation of kanging or code stealing or donation stealing-- is unique. Do we have the ability to investigate and police each one?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see how the XDA has the manpower to police each one, but not being a Mod I'm not aware of everything that happens in the background.
Let's start with some apologies on our end: our rules can be confusing, and they can be sometimes inconsistently applied. We are sorry for that. The only excuse we have for those failings is a) this is a difficult and confusing topic and b) we have a small army of volunteer mods—they won’t all interpret rules the same way every time. The good news about having a volunteer mod team is that there are no ulterior motives; they want to do what's right-- for the site, for the developers, and for the broader community.
But still, as the moderators discuss these issues, considering individual grievances by developers and the prospect of completely rewriting our rules, there is no clear "right" answer. We know that the developers are the lifeblood of XDA. We want to respect them and respect their work. That's not always so easy.
Here's a simple hypothetical: a user (dev 2) recompiles the ROM of an original developer (dev 1) with no changes and posts it as a new thread on XDA. Dev 1 complains.
Argument 1: Dev 2 is stealing code. What's more, we want to keep Dev 1 happy-- because he brings so much to XDA. We should remove the thread and infract Dev 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Argument 2: Wait a minute! This is open source code built on the backs of other open source developers over years and decades. The licenses permit all sorts of redistribution and modification. Why should XDA take down code that is *legally* used just because Dev 1 complains? This is how open source works! We want Dev 2 to grow as a developer. Maybe that starts as kanging or small tweaks but eventually turns into true original development.
Ok, so I'm not sure which side of this you came out on. But let's add a few complications.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
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Click to collapse
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
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Click to collapse
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
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- What if Dev 2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
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- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
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- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
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- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
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Click to collapse
And that's just a single set of 8 or 9 very similar circumstances. We could come up with these hypotheticals all day.
The good news is that there are all sorts of legal ways for developers to control their code, and XDA will comply with all legitimate legal notices. Because AOSP was released under the Apache Software License 2.0 (rather than a copyleft license), ROM developers often have significant leeway to restrict use of their original code through licensing. Trademarks are another legitimate way to ensure that a developer's brand is not harmed by another dev re-releasing their code. Given the complexities of the above questions, some moderators believe that following copyrights and trademarks should be our *only* rule related to this topic. These moderators want to educate developers, working with them to ensure their work is properly protected.
But the reality is that certain devs don't want to be bothered with licenses, which is a perfectly legitimate stance for people who are largely doing this work for fun and for the benefit of the community. And so problems and arguments arise constantly. The arguments are not just among devs and mods but also among mods and other mods who want to handle these complaints differently. Sometimes things get personal and public.
Our initial answer has been to create a new Developer Relations team made up of senior mods and experienced developers. This provides a consolidated place for developers to make their voices heard. The team works directly with site admins and owners to get easy-to-address concerns addressed quickly. But not all concerns are easy to address.
Ok, so let's talk. What should XDA's policy be regarding sharing of code? Our only desire is to come up with a common sense solution that respects all side and (hopefully) honors the open source ethos. We are one community, and we are in this together.
Thanks,
The XDA Mod Team
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Sent from my sailfish using XDA Labs
I should also add I am not a Dev, never have claimed to be one.
Any "work" I have posted are basically Kangs.
edit:
I don't think the Thread Title asks the right question.
Shouldn't the Question be something like
What should XDA's policy be regarding using someone else's code?
Devs effectively share their code when they post links to it (rom, kernel...)
Hello, I would like to answer few of those questions and provide a solution to minimize or possibly overcome.
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
Yes, developers should be able to moderate their own threads, avoids moderator getting spammed.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
If you're giving moderating powers to developers, this will be avoided in the first place. Do note in mind that developers might take advantage of it and delete bug reports and stuff. But this can be overcome with "state a reason to delete this post".
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
Donation is complete unforced thing. Demanding for it or making work exclusive to only donors should be stopped. On the same line, if the developer is doing original developement and has a PayPal or Bitcoin link in his profile and not forcing anyone, will be fine.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
This is very complicated topic. Yes, the permission should be taken from the original developer. One may argue that they are maintaining maintainership and stuff but that's just for the source. Consider someone doing unofficial builds of an official device, that should be avoided unless the third party developer can provide source proving that there are significant changes.[Excluding change of ToolChain]. If the original developer is found to be unhappy with someone taking away his work and posting, things should be looked on how the code is maintained or presented to the userbase.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
Small tweaks are mostly placebo and if they're having huge impact, teach the dev2 to contribute to the original work. Duplicating a thread/work is just filling up trash
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
Dev2 can either get with the dev1 as said earlier or just maintain his own work/thread "IF" it's a big change, this is opensource and people can tinker around code. If the dev1 is unhappy, he/she is just not getting hang of opensoure
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
This should honestly be avoided. Thread/work should be taken down/locked ASAP and the developer need to address either the code or just have it locked down because of no real changes to original code
- What if dev2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
As stated earlier, donation is not a forced thing. Depends on how the work is displayed to the userbase. This is happening alot with custom ROMs scene. They cherry-pick whatever features they could find and just put them all in one place and call it THEIR "ROM". Although, this is correct techincally, morally? uh no.
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
Dev1 should have complete control over his code and should have the power to manipulate release. This, again, happens with unreleased ROMs and some random dev2 compiling and posting it. Dev1 should be given importance here
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
As said earlier, source code can be looked upon and further actions can be taken after checking.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
If Dev1 wants to revoke permission, this must be stated in words and should be visible to everyone. Verbal permissions are always hit and miss.
Suggestion:
Introduction of a dev panel or a special group of developers who could look into the source or appeals made by both dev1 and dev2 and then take further actions. This will greatly reduce the flaming and both dev1 and dev2 can get legit reason for the action taken by the mods. These people can also clear confusions of whose work is real or who is copy-pasting code with slight difference
Thank you for letting me voice my opinion and I hope this "Dev Panel" becomes a thing and I can see it in action.
Shreesha.Murthy said:
Hello, I would like to answer few of those questions and provide a solution to minimize or possibly overcome.
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
Yes, developers should be able to moderate their own threads, avoids moderator getting spammed.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
If you're giving moderating powers to developers, this will be avoided in the first place. Do note in mind that developers might take advantage of it and delete bug reports and stuff. But this can be overcome with "state a reason to delete this post".
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
Donation is complete unforced thing. Demanding for it or making work exclusive to only donors should be stopped. On the same line, if the developer is doing original developement and has a PayPal or Bitcoin link in his profile and not forcing anyone, will be fine.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
This is very complicated topic. Yes, the permission should be taken from the original developer. One may argue that they are maintaining maintainership and stuff but that's just for the source. Consider someone doing unofficial builds of an official device, that should be avoided unless the third party developer can provide source proving that there are significant changes.[Excluding change of ToolChain]. If the original developer is found to be unhappy with someone taking away his work and posting, things should be looked on how the code is maintained or presented to the userbase.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
Small tweaks are mostly placebo and if they're having huge impact, teach the dev2 to contribute to the original work. Duplicating a thread/work is just filling up trash
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
Dev2 can either get with the dev1 as said earlier or just maintain his own work/thread "IF" it's a big change, this is opensource and people can tinker around code. If the dev1 is unhappy, he/she is just not getting hang of opensoure
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
This should honestly be avoided. Thread/work should be taken down/locked ASAP and the developer need to address either the code or just have it locked down because of no real changes to original code
- What if dev2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
As stated earlier, donation is not a forced thing. Depends on how the work is displayed to the userbase. This is happening alot with custom ROMs scene. They cherry-pick whatever features they could find and just put them all in one place and call it THEIR "ROM". Although, this is correct techincally, morally? uh no.
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
Dev1 should have complete control over his code and should have the power to manipulate release. This, again, happens with unreleased ROMs and some random dev2 compiling and posting it. Dev1 should be given importance here
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
As said earlier, source code can be looked upon and further actions can be taken after checking.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
If Dev1 wants to revoke permission, this must be stated in words and should be visible to everyone. Verbal permissions are always hit and miss.
Suggestion:
Introduction of a dev panel or a special group of developers who could look into the source or appeals made by both dev1 and dev2 and then take further actions. This will greatly reduce the flaming and both dev1 and dev2 can get legit reason for the action taken by the mods. These people can also clear confusions of whose work is real or who is copy-pasting code with slight difference
Thank you for letting me voice my opinion and I hope this "Dev Panel" becomes a thing and I can see it in action.
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Expanding on what Shreesha is saying here:
I believe that thread OPs should be given moderator powers if they choose. To prevent the misuse of power, that moderator power should be given only if reviewed first by let's say SMs and beyond. Although this may be a solution in the maybe the best circumstances, I also understand that this will be very hard to regulate. Working on a sort of trust based system, where we trust in the thread OPs/developers to make the right choices, will be like walking on thin ice just because of the size of XDA. Misuse of power is definitely at the top of the list when trying to implement a solution like this. This idea is something that I have had in mind for a while, but it will definitely take time to work out the kinks.
To expand on the above idea, maybe XDA could implement a warning pop-up before a user posts in a development thread (with a list of what should be posted/shouldn't be posted). If the warning can be set by the thread OP, I believe that can help in reducing the amount of pointless posts.
Hope to expand on this later, great initiative!
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
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Only routine work like closing/opening threads, moving etc. No post removals.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
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I can't think of a situation where telling a user to stop a specific behavior and the user doesn't, would somehow not be a problem created by the user. So the user should feel the consequences.
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
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No. Only the donation button. That's enough. The donation begging looks kinda like ads on TV these days.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
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No, it should be advised. And certainly if the original developer disagrees, take action immediately.
Argument 1: Dev 2 is stealing code. What's more, we want to keep Dev1 happy-- because he brings so much to XDA. We should remove the thread and infract Dev2.
Argument 2: Wait a minute! This is open source code built on the backs of other open source developers over years and decades. The licenses permit all sorts of redistribution and modification. Why should XDA take down code that is *legally* used just because Dev 1 complains? This is how open source works! We want Dev2 to grow as a developer. Maybe that starts as kanging or small tweaks but eventually turns into true original development.
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Because this is the ugliest face of opensource. Something being legal doesn't mean it feels right. And while all big opensource teams will have legal teams to discuss, choose, and enforce their licences, the average developer of this site doesn't, and he's doing this only for fun. Dev2 can grow as a developer, he should also give credit to where its due.
It's so simple, not doing it shows το me that the Dev2 wants to hurt Dev1 with his actions.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?.
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What I said above. Proper contribution, respect for the original work, no donation. If you are in the mood, lecture him why he should try to present them to the original source instead of forking for some strings.
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
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Nothing changes, see above.
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
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This should be not allowed. Period.
- What if Dev 2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
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Not allowed (see above my general point on donation)
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
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Bundling them all together so I can pitch in a more general idea. All of the above hurt the "brand" of the ROM/developer work. In the commercial/business environment, this would mean that it hurts a registered trademark, and legal actions would be taken. But "ROM/developer work names are not registered trademarks". Yes they are not and this goes back around to what I said above, the fact that it's not "illegal" doesn't mean it's right and XDA should/could be the safe heaven where all tiny developers could feel that their work won't be blatantly copied/re-shared without permissions, without legally securing it.
So, to answer the question: If the actions of Dev2 hurt the "brand" of Dev1, he should not be allowed to use "the brand" for his/her advantage. That means, again, no donations, but also no clickbait titles with the original "rom/developer work name" on the thread title, signatures and all other public places that a user could post it. They would need to come with a clear "PERSONAL BUILD OF ..." prefix, so everyone knows that Dev2's project is NOT affiliated with the original work.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
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Definitely allowed to change opinion. Why not?
While I've had issues with XDA on multiple occasions, I respect what they are trying to do here. It seems as if they are finally listening to the developers that have been getting stomped on for the last few years.
I say that to say this: 99% of the problems come from the mods. Not all mods are bad, but several are extremely biased and will bend interpretation of the rules to suit their arguments as well as their friends. This has been well documented and multiple developers have left the site over this type of behavior. The previous statement about mods having no ulterior motives is, in many instances, untrue.
Developers own their work. XDA needs to stop catering to the whiny kids and Kangers. Pay attention to the few posts above mine and see the response difference between developers and contributors. It's pretty clear what developers think.
There have even been cases recently where developers where told they had to pay to trademark their name and logo before XDA would enforce both the intent and letter of rule 12. That is not conducive to a development community. That is pandering to users simply so XDA continues to get ad traffic. The sad part of this specific case is the fact that the user that posted the unofficial build asked for the thread to be closed and a mod told him no out of spite. It all boiled down to the fact that the original work belonged to a team that left XDA for an alternative due to the listed problems and the user was trying to honor the wishes of the developers and wanted the thread closed. What reason would XDA have to say no to this other than spite and childish attitudes?
Does this at all sound like a development or developer friendly environment? Not to me. To me it sounds like a vindictive teenager and a company more worried about ad revenue than keeping development going.
All in all, I hope XDA changes for the better. I hope they not only revise the rules, but begin enforcing them again. I used to love this site, now I barely even check it and all because of the problems that the developers are listing.
Another idea is that XDA should not remove someone's RD title simply because they are using other websites or for any comments posted on other sites. Basically, XDA has become a site of hypocrisy no matter what the rules say.
My main suggestion would be to investigate mod activity, remove mods in violation of the rules and hold mods accountable. XDA has been ruined by the mods, period. This is evident in many conversations, PMs, off site posts, and threads on XDA.
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
Yes. All developers should be allowed to moderate their own threads until they prove that they can't be trusted to do so. Trust is important if there's any truth to trying to make XDA a better place for developers. A place where developers not only feel comfortable but they know that the rules apply to everyone not just to those that the moderators have a hard on for.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
For one I think moderators should show developers that they have our backs and not rush to judgement and label us the bad guys.
By this I mean not just say 'we support developers' and then come down hard on us for petty things. A lot of times users pick our buttons and say dumb things and really get us to blow up because they know that once a moderator shows up, they're not going to look at all the little things the user said or did. They're not going to look at the user's attitude BUT they're going to look at the end result. They're going to look at when the developer said enough is enough and told that user where they can go. Users know that as long as they're not using profanity, they can annoy the living hell out of developers. They know they can rate our threads 1 star and we're just suppose to stay there and take it. Moderators need show to these types of users that when it comes down to it, they have our back. This is a developer site, no? Let's start showing that is a developer site and not a glorified tech support website for users.
If moderators show developers and truly show it not just say it or put it as part of your signature on here, you won't have a problem with developers thinking that you're not doing enough. Also, NOT being so secretive about everything will go a long way. Telling the developer that you've done this and done that to try to fix the problem will show that you the moderator actually gives a rat's ass about them and not putting things in auto pilot.
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
This is horrible to even consider. Being on the site for a while, I remember when developers were doing things just to do it. Go look at some of the window mobile threads. They were putting things out and working with each other and not once did you see someone post up a paypal link in their changelog or in their signature. It was done because they loved doing things. They loved working with other developers to make their devices that much better.
Today you have developers fighting with each other and competing with one another to see how can get more donations. The one that adds more features into their ROM gets more donations. Developers not wanting to work with each other because if they do, they have to split the donations and is just less for them. You guys agree to let developers whore out even more on the donations and get ready for even more fights. Get ready for even more fragmentation. Get ready for even more repo sync warriors disrespecting developers by putting out repo sync builds with paypal links in the changelog and in their signature because you know, 'help development' and whatever bs excuse they use to whore out on donations.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
I think most developers could care less if their work is used in a ROM or different project. The problem is when a repo sync warrior syncs up your work, compiles it and then rushes to XDA to post it. They post it sometimes before you could even have a go at it or they do it with the intention of pulling donations EVEN tho you may not ask for donations. They rush to XDA to post builds of officially supported devices and in turn adds to the problem. Now you have users on some bs thread annoying you via email, G+, pm, twitter, email, etc about some thing that you may still be working on but because of this guy who rushed to XDA to post your work, now you have to address bugs on unfinished work.
This is what gets most developers mad about this certain thing. We see this and we report it and are sometimes told that there's nothing that can be done. We get told that is open sourced and that we just need to suck it up. This happens because most moderators are not developers. They haven't invested any time in actually developing something themselves so they don't know how annoying it is to have your work posted before you even get a change to announce it. They don't truly value it. So to answer your question, yes I think getting permission would cut down on repo sync warriors.
If a developer is unhappy aboput the use of his work, he or she probably has a legit reason and it should be heard the developer committee not be a final decision by a forum moderator that may or may not even be a developer themselves. YES, being a developer and actually ruling down on developer issues is very important. Is like making decisions for someone or something you don't truly understand. I'm not saying that every situation is going to go our way but at the very least it shows the developer that their situation was handled correctly and not put on auto pilot by a moderator that just doesn't care. Remember, trust and showing developers that you truly have their back goes a long way here if you guys are actually serious about fixing your mistakes.
That last one is the toughest, and it has historically caused all sort of arguments, anger, and even rage-quitting by devs-- who think we don't respect their work-- and even mods who feel like they are trying their best but are never appreciated.
What we want to do is publicly reset the discussion. For now, let's ignore the current rules of XDA (including the oft-argued-about rule 12) and try to discuss what our rules *should* be. Hopefully everyone will see that there are two very legitimate sides of this argument where reasonable people can disagree. What's worse-- each and every situation-- each accusation of kanging or code stealing or donation stealing-- is unique. Do we have the ability to investigate and police each one?
Putting moderators in place that actually know what they're talking about and not just yelling 'GPL' and 'Open source' for every issue will be a start. The problem here is that they're too many non-developer types in moderator roles. If the moderator is a developer then he or she doesn't have to run to that senior moderator or wait for a moderator that's a developer to review cases. He or she can easily go in and see if the code is kanged or not. They can grep things and get to the core of the problem and make a ruling on the issue.
So maybe stop promoting people because they're this 'good guy' and have a 'good heart' and actually start looking at their technical background more. Yes, being a good guy and stuff like that matters BUT when you promote a guy that doesn't have a clue what the GPL is, that's a problem. I've come across a few moderators and even some senior moderators that I had to sit there and explain to them that the GPL doesn't apply to every piece of software out there. YES, this may be silly but is happened before. You guys are promoting a bunch of saints to the mod ranks but these saints don't know their head from their back end.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
Making string changes shouldn't allow the repo sync warrior to post 'their' work. This is like if I take SuperSU, decompile it with apktool and change it to SuperSuperSU and then try to post it on here. Being that Chainfire is loved by the community and a senior mod on here, I would probably get my ass ripped apart. So if I can't take Super SU and change the app name string then how come a repo sync warrior can do the same with my work?
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
If they've made huge changes then more power to them! Let them have at it! That's what open source is TRULY about! I have no issues there.
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
Then XDA would probably give them a RD title. This happens every day on here! There's too many donation whores on here. They take CM, change some strings, add in that viper4android crap and call it 'Whatever OS'. We've all seen their threads. There's donations everywhere. A huge paypal button the button and even a link in the changelog. The change starts with you guys. If moderators are looking the other way on this then is always going to be a problem.
This kind of problem has been reported a number of times but nothing ever changes.
- What if dev2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
In my opinion if the original developer is not asking for donations then the repo sync warrior shouldn't ask for donations. Unless HUGE changes are made to the code then is not your code and you shouldn't be allowed to whore out for donations.
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
I spoke about this already but posting WIP work is the #1 thing that pisses off developers on here. If something is being worked on and you want to try it out then compile it for yourself. Contribute to the project but don't go all glory hound on the developer and post it on XDA because you want to boost up your thanks meter or whore out for donations. YES, technically the moderators are not going to say **** to you but is still shady af.
Let developers post their work first. They've earned that right!
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
As said earlier, source code can be looked upon and further actions can be taken after checking.
If is just string changes then it should not be allowed. Technically the license allows for this but is petty and discourages a lot of developers from posting their work. It devalues the time spend on the work. You see it alot on here. Kangers getting praised for **** while real developers get told they're this and that.
I've seen my work get compared to kangs a number of times and users say that the kang was better than mines even tho it was just a few string changes and them adding kernel auditor or some bs app.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
If Dev1 wants to revoke permission, this must be stated in words and should be visible to everyone. Verbal permissions are always hit and miss.
People change their minds all the time. I think if a developer is going to revoke permissions then he or she would have a valid reason and the moderators should honor it if the reason is valid.
All that said, I don't expect anything to really change. This is the same dance we've gone to before. XDA acts like they give a damn, some senior moderator or maybe if we're lucky a admin says 'we'll consider everything blah blah blah thanks' and we never heard from any of this.
In the United States people are legally allowed to speak their minds and it's a Constitutional protection, but as a private site XDA is not bound to the Constitution. Therefore you can, for example, rightly ban users who engage in profanity, hate speech, sexual harassment and other abuses of "free speech".
In a similar vein you aren't bound to observe "the letter of the law" with respect to "open-source" software. As a private, non-governmental site you are free to impose moral restrictions that violate the "spirit" of "open-source". In your example, "Dev 2" doesn't need to start out as a "kanger" in order to "grow". He can learn (and should be *expected* to learn) common courtesies such as not to post any substantially unaltered work of others without permission. He can learn how to give due credit without co-opting another person's brand.
You are free to require that such common courtesies be observed by "Dev 2" before he is allowed to post a thread. And he shouldn't be allowed to seek donations unless he has BOTH altered the work of "Dev 1" in some substantial and significant way AND published it WITHOUT using the first dev's brand name. He should give due acknowledgement of the first dev's contribution in the credits section, NOT in the thread title.
Mazda said:
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
Yes. All developers should be allowed to moderate their own threads until they prove that they can't be trusted to do so. Trust is important if there's any truth to trying to make XDA a better place for developers. A place where developers not only feel comfortable but they know that the rules apply to everyone not just to those that the moderators have a hard on for.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
For one I think moderators should show developers that they have our backs and not rush to judgement and label us the bad guys.
By this I mean not just say 'we support developers' and then come down hard on us for petty things. A lot of times users pick our buttons and say dumb things and really get us to blow up because they know that once a moderator shows up, they're not going to look at all the little things the user said or did. They're not going to look at the user's attitude BUT they're going to look at the end result. They're going to look at when the developer said enough is enough and told that user where they can go. Users know that as long as they're not using profanity, they can annoy the living hell out of developers. They know they can rate our threads 1 star and we're just suppose to stay there and take it. Moderators need show to these types of users that when it comes down to it, they have our back. This is a developer site, no? Let's start showing that is a developer site and not a glorified tech support website for users.
If moderators show developers and truly show it not just say it or put it as part of your signature on here, you won't have a problem with developers thinking that you're not doing enough. Also, NOT being so secretive about everything will go a long way. Telling the developer that you've done this and done that to try to fix the problem will show that you the moderator actually gives a rat's ass about them and not putting things in auto pilot.
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
This is horrible to even consider. Being on the site for a while, I remember when developers were doing things just to do it. Go look at some of the window mobile threads. They were putting things out and working with each other and not once did you see someone post up a paypal link in their changelog or in their signature. It was done because they loved doing things. They loved working with other developers to make their devices that much better.
Today you have developers fighting with each other and competing with one another to see how can get more donations. The one that adds more features into their ROM gets more donations. Developers not wanting to work with each other because if they do, they have to split the donations and is just less for them. You guys agree to let developers whore out even more on the donations and get ready for even more fights. Get ready for even more fragmentation. Get ready for even more repo sync warriors disrespecting developers by putting out repo sync builds with paypal links in the changelog and in their signature because you know, 'help development' and whatever bs excuse they use to whore out on donations.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
I think most developers could care less if their work is used in a ROM or different project. The problem is when a repo sync warrior syncs up your work, compiles it and then rushes to XDA to post it. They post it sometimes before you could even have a go at it or they do it with the intention of pulling donations EVEN tho you may not ask for donations. They rush to XDA to post builds of officially supported devices and in turn adds to the problem. Now you have users on some bs thread annoying you via email, G+, pm, twitter, email, etc about some thing that you may still be working on but because of this guy who rushed to XDA to post your work, now you have to address bugs on unfinished work.
This is what gets most developers mad about this certain thing. We see this and we report it and are sometimes told that there's nothing that can be done. We get told that is open sourced and that we just need to suck it up. This happens because most moderators are not developers. They haven't invested any time in actually developing something themselves so they don't know how annoying it is to have your work posted before you even get a change to announce it. They don't truly value it. So to answer your question, yes I think getting permission would cut down on repo sync warriors.
If a developer is unhappy aboput the use of his work, he or she probably has a legit reason and it should be heard the developer committee not be a final decision by a forum moderator that may or may not even be a developer themselves. YES, being a developer and actually ruling down on developer issues is very important. Is like making decisions for someone or something you don't truly understand. I'm not saying that every situation is going to go our way but at the very least it shows the developer that their situation was handled correctly and not put on auto pilot by a moderator that just doesn't care. Remember, trust and showing developers that you truly have their back goes a long way here if you guys are actually serious about fixing your mistakes.
That last one is the toughest, and it has historically caused all sort of arguments, anger, and even rage-quitting by devs-- who think we don't respect their work-- and even mods who feel like they are trying their best but are never appreciated.
What we want to do is publicly reset the discussion. For now, let's ignore the current rules of XDA (including the oft-argued-about rule 12) and try to discuss what our rules *should* be. Hopefully everyone will see that there are two very legitimate sides of this argument where reasonable people can disagree. What's worse-- each and every situation-- each accusation of kanging or code stealing or donation stealing-- is unique. Do we have the ability to investigate and police each one?
Putting moderators in place that actually know what they're talking about and not just yelling 'GPL' and 'Open source' for every issue will be a start. The problem here is that they're too many non-developer types in moderator roles. If the moderator is a developer then he or she doesn't have to run to that senior moderator or wait for a moderator that's a developer to review cases. He or she can easily go in and see if the code is kanged or not. They can grep things and get to the core of the problem and make a ruling on the issue.
So maybe stop promoting people because they're this 'good guy' and have a 'good heart' and actually start looking at their technical background more. Yes, being a good guy and stuff like that matters BUT when you promote a guy that doesn't have a clue what the GPL is, that's a problem. I've come across a few moderators and even some senior moderators that I had to sit there and explain to them that the GPL doesn't apply to every piece of software out there. YES, this may be silly but is happened before. You guys are promoting a bunch of saints to the mod ranks but these saints don't know their head from their back end.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
Making string changes shouldn't allow the repo sync warrior to post 'their' work. This is like if I take SuperSU, decompile it with apktool and change it to SuperSuperSU and then try to post it on here. Being that Chainfire is loved by the community and a senior mod on here, I would probably get my ass ripped apart. So if I can't take Super SU and change the app name string then how come a repo sync warrior can do the same with my work?
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
If they've made huge changes then more power to them! Let them have at it! That's what open source is TRULY about! I have no issues there.
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
Then XDA would probably give them a RD title. This happens every day on here! There's too many donation whores on here. They take CM, change some strings, add in that viper4android crap and call it 'Whatever OS'. We've all seen their threads. There's donations everywhere. A huge paypal button the button and even a link in the changelog. The change starts with you guys. If moderators are looking the other way on this then is always going to be a problem.
This kind of problem has been reported a number of times but nothing ever changes.
- What if dev2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
In my opinion if the original developer is not asking for donations then the repo sync warrior shouldn't ask for donations. Unless HUGE changes are made to the code then is not your code and you shouldn't be allowed to whore out for donations.
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
I spoke about this already but posting WIP work is the #1 thing that pisses off developers on here. If something is being worked on and you want to try it out then compile it for yourself. Contribute to the project but don't go all glory hound on the developer and post it on XDA because you want to boost up your thanks meter or whore out for donations. YES, technically the moderators are not going to say **** to you but is still shady af.
Let developers post their work first. They've earned that right!
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
As said earlier, source code can be looked upon and further actions can be taken after checking.
If is just string changes then it should not be allowed. Technically the license allows for this but is petty and discourages a lot of developers from posting their work. It devalues the time spend on the work. You see it alot on here. Kangers getting praised for **** while real developers get told they're this and that.
I've seen my work get compared to kangs a number of times and users say that the kang was better than mines even tho it was just a few string changes and them adding kernel auditor or some bs app.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
If Dev1 wants to revoke permission, this must be stated in words and should be visible to everyone. Verbal permissions are always hit and miss.
People change their minds all the time. I think if a developer is going to revoke permissions then he or she would have a valid reason and the moderators should honor it if the reason is valid.
All that said, I don't expect anything to really change. This is the same dance we've gone to before. XDA acts like they give a damn, some senior moderator or maybe if we're lucky a admin says 'we'll consider everything blah blah blah thanks' and we never heard from any of this.
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Hi Alex,
Long time no see...
No, you will not be banned for this comment. However, I will reply later tonight.
Thanks for opening this thread and asking the question. I'm sure there will be a lot of different opinions here. I'll try to be concise with mine:
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
It sounds good in theory, but I'm not so sure about this. The existing complaints about inconsistent applying of the rules would be multiplied and what happens when a developer in their own thread starts taking a heavy hand and applying their own rules? That would only start more arguments between developers and users, and also developers and moderators. I think an impartial judge(ie. a moderator) is probably going to be the least devisive way of policing a thread. No matter which way this one goes, there will always be people who disagree, or are unhappy with a decision, be it the user, developer or moderator.
Another question is: should developers be able to stipulate what type of content they want, posted in the OP in their thread(outside of the general site rules) and report users for breaking those "rules"? At least then there is a clear expectation of users in that thread to read the OP and abide by the developers rules......I still think going down this road would lead to way more confusion.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
This is related to the question above, and I'm not sure there is a broad answer to it without specific examples, but it proves the point about letting all developers moderate their own threads. Most developers tend to have strong and differing opinions(with good reason) about what type of content is acceptable in their threads. The problem is XDA as a forum needs to be reasonably consistant, otherwise it would turn into a complete mess, adding confusion on top of what there is already for a large number of casual XDA users. I guess the question is whether we want XDA to be "user-friendly" or an "elite" site for developers. I think the debate about this could rage for eternity....
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
Some developers/contributors don't accept donations, some allow it. I would draw the line at allowing donations as long as they are not required to use a rom/kernel/app etc. I've seen some users ask developers to allow them to donate because the developer didn't have a "donate button" to show appreciation. I have no problem with that. I just think making a career or business out of android development belongs somewhere else. But I think some leeway should be given to those who have contributed greatly to the XDA community by allowing discreet links to their own website or blog.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
Would most developers want to be asked for permission if there is no intention to publish or share it, only build it for personal use? I would say no. If the intention is to start a rom thread and proper credits are given(such as: All credits for this work to superdev, I'm not a dev, I only repo synced and compiled), then I don't see that as being that different unless the dev wanted to publish it themselves later. For that and other reasons I think it should be required to let the dev know you want to publish that work. I think the respect works both ways. If permission is sought, then denying or revoking that permission should be explained with the reason why. I guess if there is disgreement from there, then it is up to a moderator to decide whether the reasons are fair or not. I think fair weight must be given to the argument of the dev, but I don't think the dev is always right either.
The basic examples at the end of the OP show how complex this is though. There are definately scenarios that are completely not OK, some that are arguable, and some that are fine. I think the developer should have a large say on what is OK or not OK within reason.
I've read through this thread, and do agree with some of the comments being said. I suggest going back and reading @Mazda's post (#9) if you haven't already.
I used to be a moderator on this site. A lot of the stuff I had go deal with was mainly putting threads in the correct place.
Every so often I had to deal with duplicate work, but I was working the low traffic areas of the site.
- should developers be allowed to moderate their own threads?
RD's (unless it changed recently) have the power to open + close their own threads. I think this should be extended to the senior members.
Moving threads, I don't think they should have that power. If a thread needs moving, it should be a one off because a mistake was made. It doesn't take that much time to do for a mod anyway. It mainly happens with junior developers anyway, and I don't propose them having additional power.
Actually cleaning up posts. Now this is a sensitive one. This is something I see as opening up the gates to large scale abuse of power. Something moderators are accused of when developers don't have their way. Sometimes in public, sometimes in back channels.
I think moderators should have the power to see who is being sensible with their reports. If a developer is being consistent, they should have the power to be able to mark posts as hidden/removed in a thread.
This should then be added to a list that a moderator can go over, to ensure posts are only removed when needed, and not to remove negative comments for the sake of removing negative comments (like a site not showing bad reviews).
This could be used as a way to judge a person for a moderator position.
In mazda's post, he mentioned about there not being enough developers in the moderator ranks.
I whole heartedly agree. I remember a case a few months back (can't remember with who) of blatant copy + pasting of a kernel. The moderator who was dealing with the case didn't know how to verify if a kernel was copied and pasted. I taught them how to check the fingerprints on the kernel. Due to a lack of knowledge, this case would have been closed in favour of the person copying + pasting.
I think a great way to help improve xda (and have an impact on these rules) is to actually bolster the knowledge of the moderators so they know what they're actually moderating.
Full disclaimer: I left the moderator team for personal/medical reasons, not because I had issues with them. The issues were something I wanted to help fix.
I've had to think about this topic quite a bit, not only as The Flash, forum moderator but as Nathan, friend of several awesome developers and amateur "developer" myself. These questions are hard to answer because there are two sides to every argument but I'm going to do my best. I'll start by talking about some of the things that I've seen as issues in the past and work from there.
What is development?
Something that has really been bothering me over the past several months is what people around me define as development. We always want to foster development but that involves having an accurate description of what development is. Many people think development involves building ROMs, kernels, and apps and putting them out to the world. I would say this is partially true. Development is really contributing and moving something forward (i.e. taking a ROM, kernel, or app and either creating it from the ground up or taking an existing product and changing something about that in a significant way). We can argue semantics about what significant means in this context but the bottom line is that something has to change. Repo syncing and building from source is NOT development. It just isn't. It takes a total of three commands (simplified) to build AOSP from source:
Code:
. build/envsetup.sh
lunch
make otapackage
I have even made a guide on setting up an environment and building from source, I could teach my grandparents to do it. That is not development to me and it should not be fostered as such. Sharing a straight repo sync build is sharing someone's work without their permission and it's not moving anything forward, it's just doing what has already been done. If a user is trying to change things and make something their own, a developer would have a hard time making the case for that work not to be shared because it's been modified, provide credits are given and authorship be maintained. I think a developer should still be able to say they don't want works to be based on theirs but at the same time, true development should be fostered. There is a difference between squashing competition (which some people seem to think is what a developer is doing when preventing repo sync build from being shared) and preserving the integrity of one's work. We want to encourage people making a difference, not sharing something that has already been made.
But the Apache License!!
Oh yes, I've heard this argument before. "The Apache License doesn't prevent you from sharing the work, it is allowed!" Well if that's the case, why does XDA block works of known kangers? There are several ROMs that are prevented from being shared here, aren't we violating the license in that case? I don't personally think so. Furthermore, if this becomes an issue of logistics, ROM developers are allowed to set their own terms:
The Apache License 2.0 said:
You may add Your own copyright statement to Your modifications and may provide additional or different license terms and conditions for use, reproduction, or distribution of Your modifications, or for any such Derivative Works as a whole, provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in this License.
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ROM developers can place further restrictions because their initial distribution is compliant with AOSP's Apache 2.0 license. If that's what it takes for developers to control their release cycle, so be it.
Unofficial vs. official builds
I would argue that most developers don't have an issue with unofficial device ports (in fact, developers are generally happy when people share their work with more people). However, XDA treats official and unofficial device builds the same. Let's say a developer allows an unofficial device build to be posted (i.e. gives permission for sharing the work under rule 12). Under the current rules, this means that if someone were to post a build of an official device that they built, they could share it without any repercussions (assuming they say credits to XYZ ROM). I think almost every developer you talk to would tell you that's wrong. Developers release their work when it feels ready. Yes it is open source, that's the beauty of Android but a work is not complete without the approval of its creator and XDA should honor that. Some people will say it doesn't matter but that is how you lose developers and cause people to close up their source. Official devices should be given special protection without care for unofficial builds. This is a problem with the way people interpret "work" within the context of rule 12. It could be interpreted as a single commit or feature (which I think is how it may have been intended initially to my knowledge) but it has grown to encompass entire ROMs and kernels. Since a ROM developer allowed an unofficial device port, it means they allowed their whole work to be shared thus making it fair game for everyone. I don't think this is how it should be, we have seen entire ROMs pull out of XDA for this very reason. If a "work" in the context of a ROM was defined as a single device build, ROM developers could hold exclusivity over their official devices and still allow unofficial device builds without issues. However, I personally don't like rule 12 as it stands, I think it can be slimmed down and reworked but this is how it could be fixed in the meantime.
Donations...
If I had to pinpoint a single issue with the Android development scene in general, it would be donations. Because rather than people getting together to collaborate and make something great, there is division and a ton of competition to see who can get the best thing out the quickest so users donate to them first. It's also an issue of appearances. I won't name names but I know a lot of developers who are constant working on stuff in the background so they don't have a ton of time to make a lot of appearances in the threads but they are the ones who are keeping development going. Yet, because there may be someone who may be pulling a lot of those commits in their own ROM and releasing it before the other person and since users don't look at Github or any source code, they think that person is the one doing all the work and donate to them. Users don't care as long as they get the bacon so to speak. If it were up to me, I wouldn't allow donations at all because people can't be responsible with it. This is a great hobby to be a part of, it's sad to see some people who glory seek for personal gain. If donations HAVE to stick around, the donation button should be the only place that donations should be requested. No signature messages, no thread messages, nothing. Donations are supposed to be discreet in my opinion, having a message saying "Donations are appreciated but not required" is still adding some sort of obligation, like nudging a person and pointing them to a tip jar. Yes, it's not required but it makes it way more upfront.
To actually answer the proposed questions...
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
Like others have said, I think opening and closing threads should be a power given to developers. As for actual moderation like removing posts or editing... I would give the developers the benefit of the doubt and allow them to do so. HOWEVER, guidelines would need to be established about what developers are and are not allowed to remove. It would alleviate stress on moderators. There would have to be supervision but that could be accomplished by having users report abuse of moderation. This would be no different from developers establishing Google+ communities. Most are responsible enough to know only remove disrespectful comments and leave legitimate posts intact.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
It depends. If the user is just asking a ton of questions, I think the developer should just ignore them. If they are harassing the developer or being entitled, I'd happily remove the posts and scold the user. Entitlement is a huge issue in this scene because users feel they are owed something, when they aren't. A big complaint I have heard from other developers is that moderators don't appear consistent or send mixed signals (I can't speak to the credibility of this because I don't think I do this and I don't know what others do). BUT, if this is true, I think the rules need to be clarified and moderators should always be in touch with developers regarding issues. I think Developer Relations is a good first step but I'd like to see something like a developers panel that not only advocates for developers in trying situations but keep the moderators in touch with the developers base. I think there has been a rift there for a bit, a mismatch so to speak and it'd be nice to see it mended in some way.
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
Answered above.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
I think permission should always be sought for a work, regardless of how big or small. It's a sign of respect. Maybe not for something as small as certain commits as it is kind of understood that once it is on Github, it's fair game but for full repos, permission should be sought. If a developer is upset, they should always reach out to the other developer first. A lot of disagreements are settled when talking to the person "face to face" because they can both air their grievances. I do understand why there is an exclusivity clause of rule 12 and I do think that needs to remain around in some shape or form because selective sharing is harmful when it comes to features or commits. I think every situation needs to be taken case by case in instances like this. It's hard to make a blanket rule for things like this because there is so much that goes into developments.
- What if Dev 2 made some small tweaks to the code?
It depends on the small tweaks. If it is string changes and refractoring, no, I don't think this should be allowed. It's not development because it isn't moving anything forward.
- What if Dev 2 made some big tweaks?
Assuming permissions, credits, and authorship are intact, there is no issue.
- What if Dev 2 acted as if the code was his and aggressively solicited donations?
Should not be allowed. No permissions or credits.
- What if Dev 2 gave proper credit, but still solicited donations?
I still don't think this should be allowed. Goes back to not development.
- What if Dev 2 posted buggy, in-process code that Dev 1 wasn't ready to release?
Depends. If it is within the ROM of dev 1 (let's say cherry-picked WIP commit, builds and releases), then no, should not be allowed. If it is within dev 2's ROM, as long as it is understood that dev 1 has nothing to do with it, I think that is fine. It's up to dev 2 to deal with bug reports and complaints.
- What if Dev 2 changed the name of the ROM?
I think this falls into the "small tweaks" category as it is just string changes. Should not be allowed.
- What if Dev 1 has previously given verbal permission but now wants to revoke that permission?
The only way I see this being okay is if developer 1 significantly changes their code, making it into a whole new work. Once permission is granted, it should not be revoked except extreme circumstances (logistics would determine what "extreme" means).
I am very happy that this thread has been made. I am thrilled to see input from others and I hope that this site continues to evolve and mature. It saddens me that the site has the name "Developers" in the title yet there are so many who do not like being here. Something needs to change because this is a great hobby and scene to be a part of.
I've tried approaching something similar to this with 3 moderators before, basically got shut down with a quote of the rules, not interested in a discussion:
Originally Posted by DSA
Hiya
I was browsing several rom/kernel threads around the forum, and i noticed lines like this keep appearing:
Circulating/Distributing/Using any part of ROM to other project is strictly not allowed.
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Now, i understand people being protective over the hard work they have done, but i thought this was a developer forum, where we share ideas, mods, fixes etc etc....
I would never refuse someone using my work if it makes things better for that person/group of users (Isn't that the whole point?)
It just seems like everyone is out to make a name for themselves and keeping things to themselves, which (imho) goes against the very foundation of this forum...
I plan on uploading my new work soon and will not be putting that kind of comment in (I don't even ask for donations, i direct people to RSPCA)
(i spoke about this when i was RC/RD but it never went anywhere)
/End rant
What do you guys think? Am i being a grumpy unreasonable tool?
Hi,
Explained in the Forum Rules:
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails, you may then contact a Moderator and provide clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in the copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence that it was you who created the work, then in the spirit of sharing, all work will remain posted on the forums.
As an addition, developers have the right to hold exclusivity over their work for as long as it is deemed necessary by that developer. However, if the work is claimed as exclusive, it must remain as such. No selective sharing will be allowed (ie, allowing certain people to use it and not others). If the developer decides to start sharing the work with others, the work automatically becomes available for all to use, albeit with the relevant credit displayed.
When permission has already been given, unless there is a very valid reason, it cannot be revoked (same applies to major updates on the work). Under that same premise, permissions cannot be denied unless the work is exclusive or under extreme circumstances.
In plain English: If you want to keep your work exclusive, go for it. However, if you are going to share your work, do it fairly.
Reposted content, derivative or maintaned works based on that of former or banned members may be removed at our discretion.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA (including but not limited to ROMs, RUUs, apps, games, kernels, themes, icons, etc) unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
So, it is entirely up to the developer whether they want to share or not. But as stated in the rules, they must clearly label if they do not want to share.
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Click to collapse
I gave up having an opinion at that point.
It is not surprising to see this be turned into voicing personal grudges against moderators...but yet I am still disappointed that it did!
I have also reached out to many that have left XDA for varying reasons. In the end things still didn't work out but both sides had more respect for the other and I made quite a few new friends! It is amazing what can happen when 2 people sit to talk reasonably rather than 2 humans chest-puffing at each other. (Mostly it was entitlement of members they couldn't stand..see below)
I served on the Moderator Committee for the last 2 years. This is the committee that receives complaints about moderators from XDA members. I believe about 3 or 4 were filed in those 2 years. Yes, we do police our own and have dismissed some of our volunteers for not representing XDA or the moderating staff properly. None of the complaints I have read here ever were filed with that Committee. It is actually a link on the home page..."I want to complain about a moderator". We don't look for complaints on G+...sorry! But these things should be in a different thread. :good:
I have also worked closely with every moderator currently volunteering on our staff and every one of them has the site's best interest in mind. Each one is not alone. They serve on a team of many moderators with Senior Moderators as Team Leaders. Everything is discussed. This is why we do not need every moderator to be a developer (incidentally developers are not exactly lining up to volunteer to be moderators and take all the abuse moderators get). The confusion over honoring licenses vs seeking permission vs selective sharing vs encouraging new development is why we are all here right now! Developers cannot even agree on this!!!
So yes, we are a private site and want to find the way forward in regards to development and it would be great if we can stick to contributing to that discussion. This is where all developers get to voice their thoughts and can guide the way forward as far as that is concerned. Let's decide what is best for all developers...always asking permission and not honoring licenses? Ask all to add their own copyrights in ASL things? Honor all licenses and promote open source? Remember XDA also is not just ROMs and kernels...there are themes and apps to consider. Any one of these decisions has its downside looking at the big picture.
One of the main issues that plagues developers as mentioned by @Mazda is taking so much from annoying users. This is a tough one since the past 5 years or so it has become a problem with XDA, the Internet and the world even...entitlement! That should also be tabled for another thread. Baby steps
So please let's all work together to decide the path of XDA and development.
Shhhh.....unofficially.....shhh...I am an advocate of always seeking permission but not selective sharing...don't tell no one! :silly:
KennyG123 said:
It is not surprising to see this be turned into voicing personal grudges against moderators...but yet I am still disappointed that it did!
I have also reached out to many that have left XDA for varying reasons. In the end things still didn't work out but both sides had more respect for the other and I made quite a few new friends! It is amazing what can happen when 2 people sit to talk reasonably rather than 2 humans chest-puffing at each other. (Mostly it was entitlement of members they couldn't stand..see below)
I served on the Moderator Committee for the last 2 years. This is the committee that receives complaints about moderators from XDA members. I believe about 3 or 4 were filed in those 2 years. Yes, we do police our own and have dismissed some of our volunteers for not representing XDA or the moderating staff properly. None of the complaints I have read here ever were filed with that Committee. It is actually a link on the home page..."I want to complain about a moderator". We don't look for complaints on G+...sorry! But these things should be in a different thread. :good:
I have also worked closely with every moderator currently volunteering on our staff and every one of them has the site's best interest in mind. Each one is not alone. They serve on a team of many moderators with Senior Moderators as Team Leaders. Everything is discussed. This is why we do not need every moderator to be a developer (incidentally developers are not exactly lining up to volunteer to be moderators and take all the abuse moderators get). The confusion over honoring licenses vs seeking permission vs selective sharing vs encouraging new development is why we are all here right now! Developers cannot even agree on this!!!
So yes, we are a private site and want to find the way forward in regards to development and it would be great if we can stick to contributing to that discussion. This is where all developers get to voice their thoughts and can guide the way forward as far as that is concerned. Let's decide what is best for all developers...always asking permission and not honoring licenses? Ask all to add their own copyrights in ASL things? Honor all licenses and promote open source? Remember XDA also is not just ROMs and kernels...there are themes and apps to consider. Any one of these decisions has its downside looking at the big picture.
One of the main issues that plagues developers as mentioned by @Mazda is taking so much from annoying users. This is a tough one since the past 5 years or so it has become a problem with XDA, the Internet and the world even...entitlement! That should also be tabled for another thread. Baby steps
So please let's all work together to decide the path of XDA and development.
Shhhh.....unofficially.....shhh...I am an advocate of always seeking permission but not selective sharing...don't tell no one! :silly:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is actually pretty funny that you say you don't look for complaints on G+ because some of your colleagues like Jerdog do.
You also mentioned that were voicing our grudge against moderators and I know that's probably a jab at me since I'm the only one that's called them out by name but is actually the complete opposite.
How do you explain me losing my RD because supposedly violating the code of conduct and get this, you'll love this because of your "we don't go on G+ looking for reports" comment, I was told about this over hangouts! I never received a formal PM telling me what I did wrong or anything. Jerdog just told me that 'while you're here' that he mind as well knock two stones with one bird and told me he was removing my title because I had violated the code of conduct. When asked he just laughed at it and said 'why do you care, you hate XDA anyways'.
I got no reason other than supposedly I hate XDA and then to top this off. My title wasn't removed. It got changed to some **** that was clearly done to humiliate me. "Former RD"? When has anyone ever got that title? If you're an RD and lose your title then you either banned if is bad enough offense or you get bump down to Senior Member.
So yes. Go ahead and tell me how supposedly I'm holding a grudge when is clear to everyone that Jerdog is the one holding a grudge. So much that he abused his powers to send me a message.
I respect you Kenny but what you're saying now, taking jabs and **** at me is bull. Now what happened is just going to be ignored because I didn't hit the 'report a moderator' button? I freaking talked to Josh the owner of this site! I was promised that this was going to be looked into, it never did!!!
It wasn't until Syko was assigned to be one of the two dev relations people that I actually saw action and got the humiliating title removed. I got to speak to both Syko and I believed Ethan (can't fully remember his name).
Edit - Is Evan
You want to talk about grudges, start with Jerdog and move your way down. There are a **** ton of moderators that hold grudges and actually make life for developers on here a real pain in the ass.
Sorry not sorry, this is going the same direction I knew it would. Senior moderators discrediting what we say because they believed they've done nothing wrong and is US that have the problem. Is never you guys, is us.
Waste of time.
noppy22 said:
Thanks for opening this thread and asking the question. I'm sure there will be a lot of different opinions here. I'll try to be concise with mine:
- Should developers be able to moderate their own threads?
It sounds good in theory, but I'm not so sure about this. The existing complaints about inconsistent applying of the rules would be multiplied and what happens when a developer in their own thread starts taking a heavy hand and applying their own rules? That would only start more arguments between developers and users, and also developers and moderators. I think an impartial judge(ie. a moderator) is probably going to be the least devisive way of policing a thread. No matter which way this one goes, there will always be people who disagree, or are unhappy with a decision, be it the user, developer or moderator.
Another question is: should developers be able to stipulate what type of content they want, posted in the OP in their thread(outside of the general site rules) and report users for breaking those "rules"? At least then there is a clear expectation of users in that thread to read the OP and abide by the developers rules......I still think going down this road would lead to way more confusion.
- How should moderators deal with "annoying" users? What should they do when individual developers don't think we're doing enough to control a problem?
This is related to the question above, and I'm not sure there is a broad answer to it without specific examples, but it proves the point about letting all developers moderate their own threads. Most developers tend to have strong and differing opinions(with good reason) about what type of content is acceptable in their threads. The problem is XDA as a forum needs to be reasonably consistant, otherwise it would turn into a complete mess, adding confusion on top of what there is already for a large number of casual XDA users. I guess the question is whether we want XDA to be "user-friendly" or an "elite" site for developers. I think the debate about this could rage for eternity....
- Should we allow donation requests? In what form?
Some developers/contributors don't accept donations, some allow it. I would draw the line at allowing donations as long as they are not required to use a rom/kernel/app etc. I've seen some users ask developers to allow them to donate because the developer didn't have a "donate button" to show appreciation. I have no problem with that. I just think making a career or business out of android development belongs somewhere else. But I think some leeway should be given to those who have contributed greatly to the XDA community by allowing discreet links to their own website or blog.
- Should we require a developer to get permission before using another developer's work? What happens when one developer is unhappy about the use of his work by another developer?
Would most developers want to be asked for permission if there is no intention to publish or share it, only build it for personal use? I would say no. If the intention is to start a rom thread and proper credits are given(such as: All credits for this work to superdev, I'm not a dev, I only repo synced and compiled), then I don't see that as being that different unless the dev wanted to publish it themselves later. For that and other reasons I think it should be required to let the dev know you want to publish that work. I think the respect works both ways. If permission is sought, then denying or revoking that permission should be explained with the reason why. I guess if there is disgreement from there, then it is up to a moderator to decide whether the reasons are fair or not. I think fair weight must be given to the argument of the dev, but I don't think the dev is always right either.
The basic examples at the end of the OP show how complex this is though. There are definately scenarios that are completely not OK, some that are arguable, and some that are fine. I think the developer should have a large say on what is OK or not OK within reason.
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I have to say this is probably the best and most constructive reply for me. You have actually tried to see it from both sides, yes in theory devs modding their own threads is a great idea but the inconsistency it could bring is a big big worry. Even as it is there is unfortunately inconsistency between moderators and more people modding means even more. It can be hard for moderators with the "annoying users" and these users must be even more annoying to the developer so the temptation to over react is great
As I said you pretty much echoe my thoughts with all your points
Sawdoctor
Mazda said:
Is actually pretty funny that you say you don't look for complaints on G+ because some of your colleagues like Jerdog do.
You also mentioned that were voicing our grudge against moderators and I know that's probably a jab at me since I'm the only one that's called them out by name but is actually the complete opposite.
How do you explain me losing my RD because supposedly violating the code of conduct and get this, you'll love this because of your "we don't go on G+ looking for reports" comment, I was told about this over hangouts! I never received a formal PM telling me what I did wrong or anything. Jerdog just told me that 'while you're here' that he mind as well knock two stones with one bird and told me he was removing my title because I had violated the code of conduct. When asked he just laughed at it and said 'why do you care, you hate XDA anyways'.
I got no reason other than supposedly I hate XDA and then to top this off. My title wasn't removed. It got changed to some **** that was clearly done to humiliate me. "Former RD"? When has anyone ever got that title? If you're an RD and lose your title then you either banned if is bad enough offense or you get bump down to Senior Member.
So yes. Go ahead and tell me how supposedly I'm holding a grudge when is clear to everyone that Jerdog is the one holding a grudge. So much that he abused his powers to send me a message.
I respect you Kenny but what you're saying now, taking jabs and **** at me is bull. Now what happened is just going to be ignored because I didn't hit the 'report a moderator' button? I freaking talked to Josh the owner of this site! I was promised that this was going to be looked into, it never did!!!
It wasn't until Syko was assigned to be one of the two dev relations people that I actually saw action and got the humiliating title removed. I got to speak to both Syko and I believed Ethan (can't fully remember his name).
You want to talk about grudges, start with Jerdog and move your way down. There are a **** ton of moderators that hold grudges and actually make life for developers on here a real pain in the ass.
Sorry not sorry, this is going the same direction I knew it would. Senior moderators discrediting what we say because they believed they've done nothing wrong and is US that have the problem. Is never you guys, is us.
Waste of time.
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There are actually 3 posts mentioning moderators Alex. I am sorry you felt it was a jab at you...it was certainly nothing of the sort. I respect you as well and we have had a good relationship as far as I can remember. I am simply trying to keep this...just this thread...on topic regarding the development. Moderators and developers are all human...of course we all made mistakes!
The Moderator Committee as a whole does not look for complaints on G+. I was on it for 2 years and led it for the last year. Your name was never brought up there by any members. Just like any business or corporation, yes the MC needs a formal complaint. Just send it to the Moderator Committee inbox...no button needs to be pushed.
You are a well respected developer and feel very strongly about open source and doing what's right. You posted some excellent thoughts earlier in regards to the future of XDA and development. I am sorry that you do not believe it will do any good and are not taking it seriously. Developers have more power together voicing opinions on the way forward in development. This whole licensing thing is a very confusing subject and we are asking for your and all developers help deciding that path.
As far as what happened to you personally, Syko and Efrant have the owner's ear. You can still send in a complaint to the MC. But can we just table it for now and work on this one thing together? The way XDA is supposed to be? Staff and developers together!
Thanks Alex!
Let's get past the pointing fingers bit, this is a discussion about going forward and not dwelling on the past.
As far as moderator committee and not getting formal complaints look at it from the other side that people will feel like they are going up against a brick wall with cops defending cops which is why you probably won't get many formal reports because they would feel like a waste of time so that led to us being here now.
But enough about the past, we are here to look at how to move forward and resolve specific problems and get feedback and educating each other on the issues being faced.