Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason
I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.
It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.
Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.
Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.
Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!
I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.
@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.
The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.
I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim
jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
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If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
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http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.
Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side
jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.
jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.
In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason
I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))
I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.
Righty, my HD2 is about to go to where all good phones go when they meet their maker, the African sub-continent
Yup its time has come, the USB socket seems to no longer except data connections, (probably broken PCB/tracks) and the digitiser has started to act erratically
as much as id like to get out the soldering Iron and replace the digitiser it doesn't cost that much more to get a new one.
So I guess im coming here to pick your brains and gather up what the community feels is the best options
So the choices above are
get a cheaper HD2 and wait out for the WP8 device launch when I could then choose to get a cheaper WP7 device or get a WP8 one
Keep the king of all phones the HD2 and shell out on brand spanky new one
Nokia 800(cheaper)
Nokia 900(would rather)
Titan (cheaper)
Titan II (Would rather)
Something else, perhaps a Smaller HD2 comparable gem
Ive put those 4 on because im interested in what the general feeling of the community is on them, obviously the 900 and the Titan II are better but I suppose the question is, for those that know is it worth the extra money?
In terms of spec I don't care, they are all good, but if your suggesting another one then 3.7in is the absolute minimum screen size and CPU spec around that of the 3 year old HD2 is acceptable, I don't play games so a 1GHz snapdragon is ok and around 512MB of RAM is fine too, the HD2 has a bit less which is fine. screen size is what's important
Im aware those newer ones are not as mod able as the HD2, but apart from web based XAP installing I don't do that much on it that needs the Full unlock so would I miss it...I dunno, side loading some of my custom XAPs would be handy I guess....
One last thing, yes I can and have researched them, but im open to suggestions and im more interested in what you guys have experienced with them, good or bad. We XDAers tend to know out stuff a lot more than the average review site!
sooo..... over to you great chaps and lasses, what do you think?
I loved my HD2 and would still be using it if it wasn't for the social integration that wp7 holds, No going back now, But if you can pick up a cheap HD2 for now then surely its the better option being what ur familiar with and knowing wp8 hopefully has some nice surprises to look forward to later in the year.
I've got an LG E900. It works smooth, but has so many little flaws, that I would go for a cheap HD2. I don't know about the Titans. But after using WP7.5 I wouldn't consider to buy a new WP device which isn't capable of WP8.
Maybe you get an used WP7.5 device cheaper than an HD2 and consider this as an opportunity to test WP. Because I guess Android isn't perfect either, but you know of its flaws and there aren't any surprises. Like when I've got my first call. WP vibrates, then rings, then vibrates. When I wanted to change this behaviour I considered myself lucky of being able to at least choose a different ringtone.
OtoTheBear said:
But after using WP7.5 I wouldn't consider to buy a new WP device which isn't capable of WP8.
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That story is not over yet Microsoft just kept quit and that's it...
Anyway, I'd buy another HD2. It's already quite cheap and still the best. And when WP8 hits the stores, I'd buy a shiny new phone with new specs (second gen devices have not made a big jump but WP8 is hopefully going to catch up with android handsets).
The HD2 will always be nice (even when you got a new phone) as you can really, really play with it.
thanks guys, Its looking like a return to the king moment with half the vote suggesting getting a cheap HD2 and waiting for 1st gen WP8 devices to see what happens.....
Ok, ive had another thought, now there doesn't appear to be any development on this one but its unlockable to deploy xaps, I don't think its full unlock but as I said im not too bothered.
So, the phone im talking about, is the Samsung Focus s
From all information that I can gather its pretty good, all beit has a plastic feel about it, anyone have any additional thoughts on the matter?
ive got a day to decide before my phone will probably pack in, USB socket just fell off the PCB all together such an undignified end to the HD2 3 year reign
Well that's sad - but even the hd2 is not invincible
I think Samsung makes pretty decent phones (I played around with an omnia 7 and galaxy s2). The only downside is that they feel really cheap and shaby as you said.
Don't know what you're paying for it, but if it's really cheap, I'd buy it. Otherwise I'd stick with an HD2 and wait for the WP8 release.
chabun said:
Well that's sad - but even the hd2 is not invincible
I think Samsung makes pretty decent phones (I played around with an omnia 7 and galaxy s2). The only downside is that they feel really cheap and shaby as you said.
Don't know what you're paying for it, but if it's really cheap, I'd buy it. Otherwise I'd stick with an HD2 and wait for the WP8 release.
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well ive gone with the Samsung Focus S imported from the states, the screen size was the deciding factor, combined with the fact that dev unlock is fairly straight forward and interop isn't much harder. Titan was just too big, and the 800 was too small and inconsistent with what I was expecting, the 900 would have been great if I could have got one cheep, the Focus S ticked all the boxes bar the slightly plastic feel to them
theres sweet bugger all going on in development so perhaps ill try give something back to the community and learn a bit from the Gods on here
The HD2 is still holding in there, if I squash the whole lower portion of the phone very hard and remove the battery to charge it, it still kinda works, it just doesn't want to die
I know for a lot of average phone users, the argument is always, "Apple is so much easier to use!" It's understandable why people claim it's easier with Apple's focus on simplicity, unchanged UI, and locked down user environment on their OS. I've been using the latest jellybean and I'm trying to be as fair as possible giving my opinion for a non-techie/average phone user. I really think that Nexus (pure Android) is now as simplistic as iOS. Yes, there is a file system on android and other additional features, but average phone users mostly only explore home screens and other basic features. Jellybean UI only has the on-screen three navigation buttons with the three dot menu access either located at the top right of bottom right.
Apple only has the home button, but some times the back button is located in different areas of an app or to access shortcuts, you have to click the home button a certain amount of times which can not be very user friendly for people that just want to 'see' the button to access what they want. I've been using my parents' phones (HTC EVO 4G) and I agree gingerbread or other older android versions for that matter are hard to use for an average user. There's too many navigation buttons, phone's touch input is bad, plenty of needed improvements on an unsupported android version, and gingerbread is slow. I believe new comers can adapt very easily to Jellybean; everything is fast, fluid, attractive, and has become much more simplistic for setting up or accessing everyday features on the phone.
What do you guys think? Have you convinced family or friends to convert to the Nexus line of Android?
Ive been trying so hard to convert my gf from her icrap... Geez she had a droid bionic before i knew her but that had old gingerbread and skinned with blur(the worst ui for android) aosp or nexus is way to go
Sent from an Apple killing JellyBean
moparfreak426 said:
Ive been trying so hard to convert my gf from her icrap... Geez she had a droid bionic before i knew her but that had old gingerbread and skinned with blur(the worst ui for android) aosp or nexus is way to go
Sent from an Apple killing JellyBean
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Yeah. I need to sit down with some people who own iPhones and just show them side-by-side everyday tasks on Nexus (aosp). For example, telling them to show you how to attach a photo to a text message and then showing how to do it on Android. It's virtually the same and everything is much nicer on Android.
I'll say up front that I've owned Apple products and would consider doing so again.
iOS is a flaming heap of crap when it comes to the UI. It was what the user-base needed when smartphones where new, but we have so much more functionality now that it's ridiculous not to integrate it.
iOS is that person that still thinks it's the 1980s. Really garish and outdated, but not old enough to be classic and cool - or at least make people smile at how quaint it seems. It's everyone in Bruce Springsteen's Glory Days - those people that had an awesome time in high-school and now can't think of anything else.
I understand wanting to keep things the same for "non-tech" people who don't want to learn a new system every time they get a new phone. This is why they need to integrate small changes and improvements over time and teach people how to use them by explaining in a tutorial/greeting on the phone. I feel that Google does a very good job of that.
3/4 of my parents and step-parents have Android devices - and they have all picked it up pretty quickly.
My mom has a dumbphone on which she doesn't text and probably uses less than five minutes a month and still asks me how to attach files in an e-mail. I helped her pick out, buy, and set-up a TF700. She seems to be doing really well with it - a lot of people I've spoken with feel that an Android tablet is more "tech n00b" friendly than even a traditional computer - it's simple, everything is easy-to-find (and you usually don't need to go mucking around in the file-system), and you can reach out and touch what you want to do which is more natural for many than using the mouse.
She originally was thinking of an iPad, but it honestly wasn't the best choice for her. She needed a good camera (work-related) and the iPads that were in her price-range didn't have very great ones - and having a microSD card slot means that she doesn't have to worry about her video-recording taking up too much internal space even if she forgets to delete them when she's done. And she has the processing power and RAM that what she does isn't skipping and struggling when going back and forth through frames of HD video (something she specifically mentioned being worried about).
I think she would have been fine with an iPad, but she didn't have the budget for a newer one. Android offers options, customisation, and competition. Manufacturers are willing to take chances and try new things that might fail - whereas Apple plays it safe. I give credit to Apple for being the force to really push tablets into the mainstream - I just hope that iOS can get some much-needed innovation.
I believe my friend's "tech impaired" mom got an S3 and is doing fine. Touchwiz might be more bloated than Stock, but it does a pretty good job of being simple and teaching new users how to use it without overwhelming them. I think Samsung has done a great job with the S3 and their push behind it - offering something that appeals to many users and many different needs, allowing everyone to get what they want out of it. To me, that's what Android is all about - options, choices, and finding what's best for yourself.
Pennycake said:
I'll say up front that I've owned Apple products and would consider doing so again.
iOS is a flaming heap of crap when it comes to the UI. It was what the user-base needed when smartphones where new, but we have so much more functionality now that it's ridiculous not to integrate it.
iOS is that person that still thinks it's the 1980s. Really garish and outdated, but not old enough to be classic and cool - or at least make people smile at how quaint it seems. It's everyone in Bruce Springsteen's Glory Days - those people that had an awesome time in high-school and now can't think of anything else.
I understand wanting to keep things the same for "non-tech" people who don't want to learn a new system every time they get a new phone. This is why they need to integrate small changes and improvements over time and teach people how to use them by explaining in a tutorial/greeting on the phone. I feel that Google does a very good job of that.
3/4 of my parents and step-parents have Android devices - and they have all picked it up pretty quickly.
My mom has a dumbphone on which she doesn't text and probably uses less than five minutes a month and still asks me how to attach files in an e-mail. I helped her pick out, buy, and set-up a TF700. She seems to be doing really well with it - a lot of people I've spoken with feel that an Android tablet is more "tech n00b" friendly than even a traditional computer - it's simple, everything is easy-to-find (and you usually don't need to go mucking around in the file-system), and you can reach out and touch what you want to do which is more natural for many than using the mouse.
She originally was thinking of an iPad, but it honestly wasn't the best choice for her. She needed a good camera (work-related) and the iPads that were in her price-range didn't have very great ones - and having a microSD card slot means that she doesn't have to worry about her video-recording taking up too much internal space even if she forgets to delete them when she's done. And she has the processing power and RAM that what she does isn't skipping and struggling when going back and forth through frames of HD video (something she specifically mentioned being worried about).
I think she would have been fine with an iPad, but she didn't have the budget for a newer one. Android offers options, customisation, and competition. Manufacturers are willing to take chances and try new things that might fail - whereas Apple plays it safe. I give credit to Apple for being the force to really push tablets into the mainstream - I just hope that iOS can get some much-needed innovation.
I believe my friend's "tech impaired" mom got an S3 and is doing fine. Touchwiz might be more bloated than Stock, but it does a pretty good job of being simple and teaching new users how to use it without overwhelming them. I think Samsung has done a great job with the S3 and their push behind it - offering something that appeals to many users and many different needs, allowing everyone to get what they want out of it. To me, that's what Android is all about - options, choices, and finding what's best for yourself.
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This post is excellent. Apple does integrate small changes in the software every year, with the same minor upgraded phone that, "Changes it all." Problem is, is their platform is not moving fast enough and every software upgrade is poorly integrated leaving lag for multitasking and the notification bar to name a few. Apple definitely started the revolutionizing of smartphones and tablets into the mainstream, but I feel like they are no longer as innovative or exciting to hear about. Android has many phones across their platform with different themed phones that can deter users to go and choose an iPhone, but like you said it also gives the user many options and customization.
How come you didn't just buy your mom a phone for hd photo/video and rendering? Tablets are kind of awkward to hold for users who want to do that. I know that Apple has more apps optimized for their tablet, but on a budget, they're not the best buy. The best buy right now is the Nexus 7 or 10, but no sd card slot. You think she would need more than 16-32gb and additional cloud storage? Many "tech-impaired" people are still able to use old android phones quite well - more than I would want to. If they could just see what newer android phones offer, they're so much easier to use and it should no longer be said that, "Apple is so much easier to use than Android!" It's simply not true anymore - especially for the Nexus (pure Android) devices I'm talking about.
Google does do a great job of user-interactive tutorials first setting up the phone. I hate to be completely biased; I've had Apple devices in the past and am around them nearly everyday. They don't have that excitement or new features that have been on Android for awhile now. Not to mention how locked down their hardware and software is - slowing down development. I've also heard recently that Apple's new approach for their devices and software, is what they feel is the best for their interest and not the communities interest. That right there completely turns me off of ever owning one of their devices and I'll continue to support Google as they're my favorite company.
Another argument you'll always hear is, "Well Apple just has so many more apps and they work better." Well, they been around longer than Android and recently Android announced they have around 675000 apps now which is nearly identical to the Apple store. Pretty impressive considering how much longer Apple has been out. Also, saying they work better is entirely not true. There's been many tests on apps on both platforms and apps perform better on newer versions of Android. I just bought a Nexus 4 for $300 off-contract featuring a quad-core cpu, 2gb ram, true hd ips+ lcd screen, and the latest purest version of android. Does it get better than that?