I came across this article today http://www.appy-geek.com/Web/ArticleWeb.aspx?regionid=1&articleid=26045339&m=d
The articles states that after a contract has been fullfilled its legal to unlock the phone. Will our phone be unlocked now? Does this mean Verizon will unlock our bootloaders? Or just the phone? Also if I buy the phone outright for 600$ does the phone come unlocked out the box?
jager420 said:
I came across this article today http://www.appy-geek.com/Web/ArticleWeb.aspx?regionid=1&articleid=26045339&m=d
The articles states that after a contract has been fullfilled its legal to unlock the phone. Will our phone be unlocked now? Does this mean Verizon will unlock our bootloaders? Or just the phone? Also if I buy the phone outright for 600$ does the phone come unlocked out the box?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's sim unlock, not bootloader unlock. They aren't related.
Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
BadUsername said:
That's sim unlock, not bootloader unlock. They aren't related.
Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's wack. The phone is now mine but I'm not allowed to use different OS's? I have to stay with the OS that comes with the phone? That should be illegal
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Free mobile app
jager420 said:
That's wack. The phone is now mine but I'm not allowed to use different OS's? I have to stay with the OS that comes with the phone? That should be illegal
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but Verizon always complains about users trying to replace their phone when it is completely their fault if they fail at flashing and don't have a backup. A lot of people, from what I can tell, can hide the fact that they've rooted and/or unlocked their bootloader and they can get a new phone.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
poppers162 said:
Yeah but Verizon always complains about users trying to replace their phone when it is completely their fault if they fail at flashing and don't have a backup. A lot of people, from what I can tell, can hide the fact that they've rooted and/or unlocked their bootloader and they can get a new phone.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've ran into this as well. Before rooting and the plethora of android phones flooded the market, VZW was a bit more relaxed on what they would replace. Now that I'm up to my S3, they proved to be sticklers in my own situation. I had a legitimate reason to exchange my previous Samsung Stratosphere. Mine was rooted and my wife's was stock. Both had the same radio issues. I told them this and they upgraded her no problems at all. I had quite a hard time getting them to upgrade it without revoking my grandfathered unlimited data plan... smh. Oh well, guess times change when some people abuse the system blatantly.
Related
I know that I am not the only one looking at this phone as a way to get a great Dual Core, 4G, vanilla Android phone (unmolested by AT&T) but able to be used on the AT&T network. I have had great luck and a lot of fun with the AT&T Nexus One and I think this phone will be just a successful with the help of XDA DEV's
I wanted to start a thread here in the G2X section for people to share with other users how to's and what works with regards to using this phone on the AT&T network.
It may be to soon to get all the answers, but maybe someone is working the same answers.
Questions:
How easy will it be to obtain the SIM Unlock code from T-Mobile or LG?
I am going to buy the phone at retail, just may have to use T-Mobile for 60-90 days to get the Unlock code.
Will AT&T allow us to upgrade to 4G data plan without buying their 4G phone?
I know from researching the Atrix 4G that the AT&T data plan needed to be upgraded to a 4G plan but you could keep unlimited data.
If I remember Tmobile's unlock policy correctly you wont have to wait. You can request the unlock code right away if you pay full retail price. Unless that's changed recently of course but I dont think it has. Good luck with it.
Kind of a repeat of what is in this thread started by me (which you tried to hijack)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1036129
Re-posting what I have found here:
I just got off of the phone with t-mobile customer care (1-877-453-1304). I called them because I wanted clarification on this before I purchased 2 full retail price phones.
The program is called the "Sim Subsidy Unlock Program." It is for anyone that purchases a phone for the full retail price from a corporate store or an authorized retailer and pays all of the price upfront.
You need to call customer care, explain that you purchased a phone for full price and request a "remedy request form number." They will then open this request and you then have 7 days to fax the following to the Sim Unlock Team at 1-813-353-6557 :
ATTENTION: SIM UNLOCK TEAM
Full Name
Mobile Number
Email Address
Readable Copy Of Sales Receipt
It takes 24 to 72 hours to process and they will email you instructions to unlock your phone.
As for at&t's 4g, there currently using hspa+ also, so if it supports their 3g, you'll have at&t "4g" as well
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
nomisunrider said:
Kind of a repeat of what is in this thread started by me (which you tried to hijack)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, I don't know why they did not move that thread over to this forum. It was clearly labeled as a g2x thread.
That is great info from T-Mobile about the "Sim Subsidy Unlock Program."
nomisunrider said:
They will then open this request and you then have 7 days to fax the following to the Sim Unlock Team at 1-813-353-6557 :
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
does it have to be "faxed"? you can't email the info? thanks
Lightning N1 said:
I know that I am not the only one looking at this phone as a way to get a great Dual Core, 4G, vanilla Android phone (unmolested by AT&T) but able to be used on the AT&T network. I have had great luck and a lot of fun with the AT&T Nexus One and I think this phone will be just a successful with the help of XDA DEV's
I wanted to start a thread here in the G2X section for people to share with other users how to's and what works with regards to using this phone on the AT&T network.
It may be to soon to get all the answers, but maybe someone is working the same answers.
Questions:
How easy will it be to obtain the SIM Unlock code from T-Mobile or LG?
I am going to buy the phone at retail, just may have to use T-Mobile for 60-90 days to get the Unlock code.
Will AT&T allow us to upgrade to 4G data plan without buying their 4G phone?
I know from researching the Atrix 4G that the AT&T data plan needed to be upgraded to a 4G plan but you could keep unlimited data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wondering the same things. Currently have the vibrant...
Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk
davehasninjas said:
As for at&t's 4g, there currently using hspa+ also, so if it supports their 3g, you'll have at&t "4g" as well
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just expect to have below 3G upload speeds with AT&T.
Edit: nevermind... software vs hardware limitations. Nonetheless, screw AT&T
nomisunrider said:
Kind of a repeat of what is in this thread started by me (which you tried to hijack)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1036129
Re-posting what I have found here:
I just got off of the phone with t-mobile customer care (1-877-453-1304). I called them because I wanted clarification on this before I purchased 2 full retail price phones.
The program is called the "Sim Subsidy Unlock Program." It is for anyone that purchases a phone for the full retail price from a corporate store or an authorized retailer and pays all of the price upfront.
You need to call customer care, explain that you purchased a phone for full price and request a "remedy request form number." They will then open this request and you then have 7 days to fax the following to the Sim Unlock Team at 1-813-353-6557 :
ATTENTION: SIM UNLOCK TEAM
Full Name
Mobile Number
Email Address
Readable Copy Of Sales Receipt
It takes 24 to 72 hours to process and they will email you instructions to unlock your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is this NORMAL procedure ...unless the phone is "exclusive" to T-Mobile. In such a case they will NOT unlock it even if you paid full retail price. This is what happened to me with their dell streak 7, I had to return it as they would not unlock it no matter what and I paid full retail for it so please triple check before you buy as I think the the G2X is exclusive to T-Mobile in the US.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
clubtech said:
That is this NORMAL procedure ...unless the phone is "exclusive" to T-Mobile. In such a case they will NOT unlock it even if you paid full retail price. This is what happened to me with their dell streak 7, I had to return it as they would not unlock it no matter what and I paid full retail for it so please triple check before you buy as I think the the G2X is exclusive to T-Mobile in the US.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If this is true, are there any stores that are offering unlocks for this phone?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
clubtech said:
That is this NORMAL procedure ...unless the phone is "exclusive" to T-Mobile. In such a case they will NOT unlock it even if you paid full retail price. This is what happened to me with their dell streak 7, I had to return it as they would not unlock it no matter what and I paid full retail for it so please triple check before you buy as I think the the G2X is exclusive to T-Mobile in the US.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
why does it work on at&t bands.... ANY PHONE and i repeat ANY phone can be unlocked.... the phone is made for two networkds (im guessing because of the possible merger) so no its not stuck to just tmobile... now i understand your stating that tmobile might not give the codes because it is an "exclusive tmobile phone" however!!!!! give this forum a few weeks and you will have it unlocked!
im sure there is away just like any other phone! (if im wrong and this is the only phone in the world that cant be unlocked you can kick me in the ****)
compuguy1088 said:
If this is true, are there any stores that are offering unlocks for this phone?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cant find anyplace that have unlock codes for the G2X. This is an issue...
clubtech said:
That is this NORMAL procedure ...unless the phone is "exclusive" to T-Mobile. In such a case they will NOT unlock it even if you paid full retail price. This is what happened to me with their dell streak 7, I had to return it as they would not unlock it no matter what and I paid full retail for it so please triple check before you buy as I think the the G2X is exclusive to T-Mobile in the US.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It can be unlocked. Mine will be as soon as I get it. Just have to wait for employees to be able to order it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
sk337sk337 said:
It can be unlocked. Mine will be as soon as I get it. Just have to wait for employees to be able to order it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just curious but how will workers being able to order it, affect a way to get it unlocked?
spyz88 said:
I cant find anyplace that have unlock codes for the G2X. This is an issue...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not even officially out yet. Of course you cannot find unlock codes for it.
sk337sk337 said:
It can be unlocked. Mine will be as soon as I get it. Just have to wait for employees to be able to order it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure it CAN be unlocked if you can get the unlock code. If the device is exclusive to T-Mobile, they wont give the unlock codes out so u are left only with back door options like T-Mobile employees .
Sent from my LG-P990 using XDA App
nomisunrider said:
It's not even officially out yet. Of course you cannot find unlock codes for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It officially has been on sale since the 15th, so yes, it is out yet. Also, I have seen unlock codes for phones that are about to be released. Especially if there is a European counterpart.
P.S. I'm getting especially sick of these carriers with phones being locked to carriers, locked down, locked/encrypted bootloaders. SMH.
spyz88 said:
It officially has been on sale since the 15th, so yes, it is out yet. Also, I have seen unlock codes for phones that are about to be released. Especially if there is a European counterpart.
P.S. I'm getting especially sick of these carriers with phones being locked to carriers, locked down, locked/encrypted bootloaders. SMH.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not to pick a fight but NO its not officially out yet... it went on pre-order the 15th... that is not an official release if its just on pre-order
call customer service they will tell you the same
now as the same methods that worked with the O2x may not work with the G2x...
nate420 said:
...give this forum a few weeks and you will have it unlocked!
im sure there is away just like any other phone! (if im wrong and this is the only phone in the world that cant be unlocked you can kick me in the ****)...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SIM unlock codes are provided by the phone manufacturer. When you make a request for an unlock code, the wireless company forwards the request to the manufacturer. The manufacturer e-mail's you the unlock code. If you're using an unlock service off the web they're doing the same thing. Devs have nothing to do with unlocking a SIM.
BarryH_GEG said:
SIM unlock codes are provided by the phone manufacturer. When you make a request for an unlock code, the wireless company forwards the request to the manufacturer. The manufacturer e-mail's you the unlock code. If you're using an unlock service off the web they're doing the same thing. Devs have nothing to do with unlocking a SIM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
MANY of my phones have been unlocked by the help of people finding a way!
thanks for your input but my vibrant was unlocked without dealing with tmobile/manufacturers
I never had a contract before but I'm thinking about getting an Xperia Z with a 2-year T-Mobile contract, what happens when I root it and flash a custom ROM on it? Will they find out? What happens when they do?
Please let me know
They won't. Except when you send it in for warranty for which you obviously return it to stock so they won't find out.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
lars1216 said:
They won't. Except when you send it in for warranty for which you obviously return it to stock so they won't find out.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So there's no difference in the data sent back and forth from which they could find out? And once I unlock the bootloader, can I relock it again or something?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
They break down your door in the middle of the night and cart you off to a secret holding facility for interrogation.:laugh:
The absolute worst they can do is tell you that you have no warranty cover for your phone but must keep paying the contract regardless.
gFrenken97 said:
I never had a contract before but I'm thinking about getting an Xperia Z with a 2-year T-Mobile contract, what happens when I root it and flash a custom ROM on it? Will they find out? What happens when they do?
Please let me know
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing will happen. I for one have rooted very single android phone I have owned. If you find something wrong with the software or its not very nice sounding or what ever. Return it to stock and relock the bootloader.
If it won't turn on then don't bother. That happened with my HTC and it went fine.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using xda premium
In Hungary, the T-Mobile doesn't allow that, but the Vodafone does
elek12 said:
In Hungary, the T-Mobile doesn't allow that, but the Vodafone does
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you mean by not allowing, no one allows it but they can only find out when you send your phone to the store ..
Relocking the bootloader would still show as "relocked" status if I'm not mistaken.
ZoltanOrDie said:
Relocking the bootloader would still show as "relocked" status if I'm not mistaken.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know and I don't really care honestly, I have a 2 year contract without any warranty so next year i'll just get the hot phone of 2014 so I won't have to deal with this phone for another year.
Note that now under the DMCA, unlocking your phone, whether it is under contract or not, is illegal. Rooting your phone is now, however, since you need to unlock your phone before you can root it...
https://www.eff.org/is-it-illegal-to-unlock-a-phone
syung said:
Note that now under the DMCA, unlocking your phone, whether it is under contract or not, is illegal. Rooting your phone is now, however, since you need to unlock your phone before you can root it...
https://www.eff.org/is-it-illegal-to-unlock-a-phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't care if it's illegal or not i'll still root my phone ...
Sent from my C6603 using xda premium
Hey wanting to buy a phone outright and use straight talk as my provider
Forgive me for asking instead of tedious searching it's not laziness it's $700 is a lot of money to me...
1) straight talk would work with this phone correct?
2) does it need to be unlocked (most likely will be bought new full price but heck if I can buy for 400 like new I might)
3) it appears the boot loader is unlocked, in this device?
4) cm may come to this or is there an issue?
Edit: I see Samsung is still playing with annoying chipsets
5) i know typically for Samsung and development t mobile is a good choice. would you guys recommend a different flavor of the note5 ? Att, international, ect..
6) any regrets?
Thanks in advance.
Sent from my XT1254 using XDA Free mobile app
Bump...
Sent from my XT1254 using XDA Free mobile app
mrkhigh said:
Hey wanting to buy a phone outright and use straight talk as my provider
Forgive me for asking instead of tedious searching it's not laziness it's $700 is a lot of money to me...
1) straight talk would work with this phone correct?
2) does it need to be unlocked (most likely will be bought new full price but heck if I can buy for 400 like new I might)
3) it appears the boot loader is unlocked, in this device?
4) cm may come to this or is there an issue?
Edit: I see Samsung is still playing with annoying chipsets
5) i know typically for Samsung and development t mobile is a good choice. would you guys recommend a different flavor of the note5 ? Att, international, ect..
6) any regrets?
Thanks in advance.
Sent from my XT1254 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll try answering to the best of my knowledge, to start best flavors would be t-mobile and Verizon (comes unlocked straight out) if you grab one from t-mobile there not unlocked straight up unless paid off which in your case it should be haha you will still need to grab an unlock code from them or you could get your device unlocked through a member of xda over in the note 5 general (I myself have done that with him took 5 minutes and works perfectly!!) I assume you know everything you need for straight, the sim starter kit (order it from there website it's cheaper trust me) it will work with straight talk so long as you meet all requirements necessary! I'm skeptical on if it NEEDs to be unlocked as I've met people who said they brought there phones over after not paying there contract bills with (a friend of mine did this) att and to this day uses his HTC 1 m8 with no problems other than he can't picture text because there apns are weird or something with the way he did it without unlocking his phone. As for the bootloader it's unlocked based on you, all you have to do is head to settings, developer settings and choose oem unlock this unlocks it so you don't get the stupid FRP locking error after flashing a rom or rooting or any of the such
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
I don't believe the boot loader is unlockable (unlocked) on anything but T-Mobile though correct?
Sent from my XT1254 using XDA Free mobile app
http://phandroid.com/2016/04/04/best-buy-samsung-galaxy-s7-edge-unlocked-gsm/
Sent from my SM-G935T using XDA-Developers mobile app
Right in our faces ridiculous
Sent from my SM-G935T using XDA-Developers mobile app
Lol wow. I wonder what processor it has.
Or if it locks to carrier once the sim goes in
Sent from my SM-G935T using XDA-Developers mobile app
Exynos. Look at the model numbers.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
I will never buy a samsung phone from tmobile again, next one will be unlocked straight from samsung or bestbuy...... Last time I get stuck with a locked bootloader
gdmlaz said:
I will never buy a samsung phone from tmobile again, next one will be unlocked straight from samsung or bestbuy...... Last time I get stuck with a locked bootloader
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I needed two new phones and I couldn't resist the BOGO deal, and I'll do it again over unlocked bootloader if another deal like this comes again.
mngdew said:
I needed two new phones and I couldn't resist the BOGO deal, and I'll do it again over unlocked bootloader if another deal like this comes again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do the BOGO deal, get get the one free and sell the other, then get an unlocked version. I am still considering that.
Have an S4 with triple boot including WiFi calling when I need it (don't really use Samsung Pay much), and miss being able to do multiboot with any phone at this point.
Do we know, or have we heard if the Sprint variant will have a locked bootloader?
tenorband said:
Do we know, or have we heard if the Sprint variant will have a locked bootloader?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the million dollar question right now. :fingers-crossed:
FYI ... Questions belong in the (Questions & Answers) section.
Good question. My guess is yes. Only because it is Samsung
My guess is yuuuuup even Samsung decided to switch from an exynos to a snapdragon processor for Canadian users.
According to Samsung Customer Support...
bootloader will be locked if ordered directly through/from Sprint
bootloader will be UNlocked if purchased from online store or brick and mortar store (Samsung Customer Support Agent specifically mentioned Best Buy)
lennykravitz2004 said:
According to Samsung Customer Support...
bootloader will be locked if ordered directly through/from Sprint
bootloader will be UNlocked if purchased from online store or brick and mortar store (Samsung Customer Support Agent specifically mentioned Best Buy)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If that is true i will be taking mine back and getting one from best buy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using XDA-Developers mobile app
brownchm said:
If that is true i will be taking mine back and getting one from best buy.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using XDA-Developers mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Screenshot of chat with Samsung CS yesterday
ETA: me too. and it looks like the only way to cancel an order with Sprint is to simply not sign for it when delivered, although I'm going to call later this morning and see if that gets me anywhere.
Called to cancel order through Sprint, and basically got nowhere. Have to wait for it to show up from UPS, then take to my local Sprint store for return/refund. Going to Best Buy and purchase there with new 2 year agreement. $500 difference in price. Freebie of the sd card or Fit watch isn't as important now since price would be substantially less. If available still, I'll stick with getting the Fit like I planned.
If you're thinking about doing the same thing, Sprint rep told me to NOT OPEN THE BOX when delivered from UPS as that will require a $35 restocking fee. Just sign for it, then take it to the Sprint store by my house and the store will be able to do refund right then and there. We'll see...
International variants appear to have root capability (i.e. unlocked bootloader) already, just looking around on the web. Hopefully Sprint retail versions will be just as easy.
lennykravitz2004 said:
According to Samsung Customer Support...
bootloader will be locked if ordered directly through/from Sprint
bootloader will be UNlocked if purchased from online store or brick and mortar store (Samsung Customer Support Agent specifically mentioned Best Buy)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I find this a little hard to believe (I usually take what reps say with a grain of salt)
Regardless of who's selling it, don't all Sprint phones originate from the same place? So they can get all their bloatware (and locked bootloader, if it is?) on there? Do the Sprint phones from Best Buy not have all of the bloatware?
I guess we'll know soon enough.
fgr said:
I find this a little hard to believe (I usually take what reps say with a grain of salt)
Regardless of who's selling it, don't all Sprint phones originate from the same place? So they can get all their bloatware (and locked bootloader, if it is?) on there? Do the Sprint phones from Best Buy not have all of the bloatware?
I guess we'll know soon enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And after looking at the Best Buy page for the N7, the "unlocked" spec is labeled as "No". Maybe Samsung makes more money if sold from retailers as opposed to carriers??? I have no idea. Another reason why I'm cancelling my order, regardless at this point. Or maybe sit on it and see if anything develops once they start getting in dev's hands for a week. After waiting 4 years for an upgrade, what's another few weeks to wait and see what's really happening. Seems Samsung and/or Sprint is moving to locking down the phones for good now, or as much as possible.
lennykravitz2004 said:
After waiting 4 years for an upgrade, what's another few weeks to wait and see what's really happening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My guess is by Thursday or Friday night at the latest, we will know everything about what's locked and what's not.
Probably have the first reports of a brick from someone trying to root also... lol
I find it hard to believe that a best buy sprint n7 would be any different than one directly from sprint. I would imagine they are all shipped from the same place with the same setups.
Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
Do know why you posted this here this is not DEVELOPMENT. More than likely it will have a locked boot loader get over it
Sent from my SM-N920P using XDA-Developers mobile app
jbadboy2007 said:
Do know why you posted this here this is not DEVELOPMENT. More than likely it will have a locked boot loader get over it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Respectful posts please. Also, finding out and working towards root methods and unlocking bootloaders are at the core of Development. Thank you, and appreciate your comments which add nothing to the discussion.
Honestly as long as we get a viable root and unroot method i will be happy. I can live without having custom roms.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using XDA-Developers mobile app
I think that is bs. I don't see the difference from a best buy Sprint Note 7 and one that is directly bought from Sprint. I'm almost certain that either one will be locked.
Also the s7 edge got root but no working recovery. So at some point we might get the same.
On the other hand the exynos versions of the Note 7 have a wip root and recovery.
It will be locked. Don't get your hopes up. Not going to be any different than the s7.
Silly question I presume but does locked bootloader mean we could obtain root but no custom recovery?
Sent from my SM-N920P using XDA-Developers mobile app
anahataray said:
Silly question I presume but does locked bootloader mean we could obtain root but no custom recovery?
Sent from my SM-N920P using XDA-Developers mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The way the s7 got root was from a leaked engineer firmware so if the bootloader is locked than well have to wait for someone to get their hands on the engineer bootloader or find another way to get root
Sent from my SM-G900P using XDA-Developers mobile app
Just like zune mentioned its going to be a wait for us to get something concrete as far as boot loaders but we might have root a little earlier at least you can use rooted apps IE titanium backup with a locked boot loader is a plus. although if your a flash junky like myself it would have been great to get an unlocked boot loader for recoveries backups and new roms but only time will tell there are some of the greatest Devs here on XDA so you never know...