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Hacking possibilities

So after playing with my Surface for 5 days now, it is obvious there is a lot of capability in the back end through the Desktop. II have networked printers, and drives at both home and office going, streaming content etc. It is very capable for what it is, way beyond any other Ipad and Android tablet out there. So it seems to me it is just a matter of time before some XDAer figures out a way to unleash it and possibly load other programs (non-RT) programs some way. We know the official MS word is no, but it seems to me it is a fully capable Win8 machine that just has some goierners on it and limited processing power, just waiting to be cracked.
Am I just dreaming?

I would love to see this happen. The one thing holding me back from purchasing one. I'd love a Windows 8 Pro version tablet at the Surface RT pricing but wouldn't we all...

I dont think rt can run x86 app properly. Because the cpu is not as good as x86 core. I am interested in porting rt to compatiable device such as tergra 2 and 3 pad.
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liu2002 said:
I dont think rt can run x86 app properly. Because the cpu is not as good as x86 core. I am interested in porting rt to compatiable device such as tergra 2 and 3 pad.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda app-developers app
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I don't think it's necessarily about the Tegra being "as good" as an x86 - the issue is that you'd need an emulator, or the source for the x86 app which you'd then need to re-compile for ARM. I believe MS made a developer toolkit available that allows simpler conversion from x86 to ARM but it's still up to the app vendors to do it.

In theory, the same code could compile for both x86/64 and ARM (RT), but VS2012 will not allow you to compile an ARM desktop app. There is no legit way to write/compile a desktop app on RT. Its an arbitrary BS limitation put in place by MS. You cannot side load apps, everything must come through the MS store, RT enterprise being an exception... which doesn't help us. And the MS store will only offer Metro apps. MS office shows that's desktop apps are fully possible, albeit recoded/recompiled for ARM, but MS will not allow it. In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Skitals said:
In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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Why do you say that?

Because its not allowed, only metro style apps published through the app store are allowed. Even if you compile compatible desktop software, the OS won't run it. Its a closed sandbox.
At best we can hope for a "homebrew" community to compile open source software, and find some hacks to get it running.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Hello,
I’m a happy owner of the Surface RT and I just wanted to add my 2c.
I think that Metro UI is great for tablet, but lacks apps !
So I cannot understand why Microsoft didn’t include .Net on this platform ! I think the main goal and the first “Homebrew” must be recompilation of Mono for ARM. As this will allow us develop a lot of programs, quickly and using “good” tools (Visual )
I just started to study WinRT and I’m already hitting a lot of blocks (For instance, I cannot find a way to open Shared Socket ! So if any other app listen on 1900 port, I lose my SSDP discovery... )
But I think recompilation of Mono is definitely a way to go ! I think i’ll try it this week-end, if I have some time, but It’s sure I will not be able install on my surface  As for now it seems to be impossible to enter Testing Mode on it.
Jurion

jurion said:
So I cannot understand why Microsoft didn’t include .Net on this platform !
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I think people seem to be missing something here (well, not just here, on other threads/forums.blogs too). MS have essentially (it’s really quite impressive) ported over the entire Windows OS to run on ARM – and this includes all of .NET v4 with supporting libraries/DLLs.
You only have to pop to C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319 on your Surface RT to see – all the same libraries for the same version of .NET a x86 desktop seem to be there - including Linq, SQL, reflection etc.
Now, this could be really great news! I’d bet that it would be entirely possible for standard .NET applications (by standard, I mean programs that only use managed code and nothing legacy) to be reasonably easily recompiled to run on ARM - ideally as easyily as changing a drop-down!
Furthermore, this is all supported in Visual Studio, it’s just locked down a bit - I’ve been able to compile, with VS2012 (and a minor tweak to remove the ARM compile block) a simple command line EXE for ARM (using .NET calls – though only in C++ which is a shame). The problem is, as soon I open it on Surface, I get an error saying the ‘digital certificate’ couldn't be validated – a common issue which has a simple fix documented online. The catch... that the instructions to remove this block don’t work with secure boot enabled, and - at present - we can’t disable this on the Surface (on normal PCs this can be turned off in the bios).
So – the key to all this, is for MS to open it up (not impossible, but who knows if or when) or for someone to get round this secure boot/certificate requirement. I’m sure there’s some smart people on here with abilities to work on, and hopefully succeed in doing this. Even if people aren't able to work a way round this block, I'm hopefully that eventually MS may release some firmware update tools that someone can hack to switch off UEFI secure boot. Or perhaps someone at MS or a partner may leak some file/app/boot that unlocks this for dev/enterprise purposes.
I look forward to it happening!
T

Skitals said:
In theory, the same code could compile for both x86/64 and ARM (RT), but VS2012 will not allow you to compile an ARM desktop app. There is no legit way to write/compile a desktop app on RT. Its an arbitrary BS limitation put in place by MS. You cannot side load apps, everything must come through the MS store, RT enterprise being an exception... which doesn't help us. And the MS store will only offer Metro apps. MS office shows that's desktop apps are fully possible, albeit recoded/recompiled for ARM, but MS will not allow it. In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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Everything doesn't have to come through the MS store, you can install applications that you build in Visual Studio 2012 for Windows Store, create an appx package and choose not to publish it in Windows Store. VS2012 then creates an appx package as well as a PowerShell script that you can run on Surface, accept security warning, get the developer's license on the device (it's free) and that's it!

It is fairly obvious why MS does not allow installation of "Desktop" apps on ARM tablets. Otherwise dev's would get lazy and just recompile desktop apps for ARM. The experience on a touch tablet would not be great on (unmodified) Desktop apps, hence Microsoft set this constraint on Windows RT in order to push dev's towards making a proper touch friendly app. The result is of course the lack of apps initially, but in the long run the benefits will be a greater experience as the apps would be optimized for touch.
Sure there are obvious downsides to this strategy, but the decision itself makes a lot of sense from a useability standpoint. You already read the complaints in reviews about "Office" not being Metro-style and unfriendly to touch. However this is naturally a decision due to time constraints, because MS would have also preferred to not include a desktop on RT. Office is the selling point now, to gravitate people towards RT and when there is enough demand, the touch friendly (Metro) apps will flow in eventually

Backflipping said:
I think people seem to be missing something here (well, not just here, on other threads/forums.blogs too). MS have essentially (it’s really quite impressive) ported over the entire Windows OS to run on ARM – and this includes all of .NET v4 with supporting libraries/DLLs.
You only have to pop to C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319 on your Surface RT to see – all the same libraries for the same version of .NET a x86 desktop seem to be there - including Linq, SQL, reflection etc.
Now, this could be really great news! I’d bet that it would be entirely possible for standard .NET applications (by standard, I mean programs that only use managed code and nothing legacy) to be reasonably easily recompiled to run on ARM - ideally as easyily as changing a drop-down!
Furthermore, this is all supported in Visual Studio, it’s just locked down a bit - I’ve been able to compile, with VS2012 (and a minor tweak to remove the ARM compile block) a simple command line EXE for ARM (using .NET calls – though only in C++ which is a shame). The problem is, as soon I open it on Surface, I get an error saying the ‘digital certificate’ couldn't be validated – a common issue which has a simple fix documented online. The catch... that the instructions to remove this block don’t work with secure boot enabled, and - at present - we can’t disable this on the Surface (on normal PCs this can be turned off in the bios).
So – the key to all this, is for MS to open it up (not impossible, but who knows if or when) or for someone to get round this secure boot/certificate requirement. I’m sure there’s some smart people on here with abilities to work on, and hopefully succeed in doing this. Even if people aren't able to work a way round this block, I'm hopefully that eventually MS may release some firmware update tools that someone can hack to switch off UEFI secure boot. Or perhaps someone at MS or a partner may leak some file/app/boot that unlocks this for dev/enterprise purposes.
I look forward to it happening!
T
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Click to collapse
Hmmm, sorry my bad, didn't look enougth to find .Net assemblies.
As for open it for MS, may be, maaaay be it's the same scheme which they followed with Windows Phone 7.
No native developpment for 7.0 -- 7.8
But they open it for 8.0
May be they just want to force people developp Metro app to populate the store first.

So where's the best place to get one?
I'm looking into buying one very very soon, I found some on ebay for $585 with the cover, That sounds like a win to me. I wish QVC had it, That'd be lovely.
I'm praying we get a work around for all this, But still If the device isn't made for it, I can't be mad that it doesn't do it, That's like being angry that my car doesn't fly.
But it's such a tease, it worries me that I'll have an entire desktop, Sitting, Obselete, With nothing but Office, which I wont even use.

Can't_Live_Without_My_Evo said:
I'm looking into buying one very very soon, I found some on ebay for $585 with the cover, That sounds like a win to me. I wish QVC had it, That'd be lovely.
I'm praying we get a work around for all this, But still If the device isn't made for it, I can't be mad that it doesn't do it, That's like being angry that my car doesn't fly.
But it's such a tease, it worries me that I'll have an entire desktop, Sitting, Obselete, With nothing but Office, which I wont even use.
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It is made for it. It has the full desktop, and the full desktop Office suite. Its a big tease. The whole "do more" campaign advertises you can "click in" and have full laptop productivity with touchpad and mouse/keyboard. Except the only software to take advantage of it is desktop IE and Office.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Since windows RT auto updates, what happens if you don't like 8.1 and don't want it?

Right now 8.1 is a preview but what happens when it is fully released? Will windows RT auto update to it even if we don't like 8.1 and want to stay on Windows 8 RT?
I know you can disable auto-updates by hacking the registry but Id rather not have to do that.
Any way to keep automatic updates but ensure your system never upgrades to 8.1?

Why? 8.1 works great.

ap3604 said:
Any way to keep automatic updates but ensure your system never upgrades to 8.1?
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Windows RT is supported by WSUS. I never tested it myself, but you can setup your device to get updates not from MS site but from your local WSUS server - and just don't approve there the updates you don't like.
And similar to earlier service packs - there would be an "8.1 blocker" (look for Win7 SP1 blocker here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=22464). As this is just a registry key - it may work on RT too.

Dane Reynolds said:
Why? 8.1 works great.
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One massive issue with 8.1 which is enough to keep a large user base from updating: jailbreak.
Once there is a jailbreak for 8.1 though, then your argument would be valid.

Not sure why you wouldn't want to run updates but so far Windows 8.1 rocks! Makes RT so much better.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
One massive issue with 8.1 which is enough to keep a large user base from updating: jailbreak.
Once there is a jailbreak for 8.1 though, then your argument would be valid.
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You talking about a jailbreak for 8.1 RT? Is so what type of stuff can you do with the jailbreak?

Dane Reynolds said:
Why? 8.1 works great.
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phantomlightgames said:
Not sure why you wouldn't want to run updates but so far Windows 8.1 rocks! Makes RT so much better.
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Not on the Asus Vivo RT it doesn't :silly:
8.1 really f#&@'s up the trackpad

Wow that's good to know.. I'm currently running it on a Dell T3500 desktop both Surface RT & Pro.
Are you sure it's not a driver issue. Maybe Asus have some updates available for track pad?

@Dane Reynolds: You new here? The Windows RT jailbreak has been a pretty big deal - especially on the RT Dev&Hacking sub-forum here - since its initial reveal over half a year ago. It removes the signing restrictions that Microsoft uses to lock out third-party desktop apps. With the jailbreak, you can:
1) Run .NET 4 (or later) desktop programs.
2) Run open-source Win32 desktop programs that were recompiled for RT (there's a list of them; check my sig).
3) Run a handful of programs specifically written for Windows RT tablets, including an x86 emulation layer.
4) Run various non-.NET legacy programs (some x86 through the emulation layer, some Java through IKVM, some Python through an incomplete port, Perl, Ruby, Lua, and a bunch of game engines).
5) Install third-party drivers (such as the open-source program Process Hacker uses).
Windows RT 8.1 breaks the method used to jailbreak RT 8.0. There are people working on getting it back - the OS is a hell of a lot more useful when you can run things like PuTTY and 7-Zip and even WebKit-based web browsers - but until them, most people that hang out around here are either dual-booting 8.0 and 8.1 (if they have enough space) or just sticking with 8.0.

GoodDayToDie said:
@Dane Reynolds: You new here?
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Nah, I've been here since RT was released, I heard about the jailbreak but was never interested, but the only reason I wasn't interested was I never found any fun stuff to do with the jailbreak.

Dane Reynolds said:
Nah, I've been here since RT was released, I heard about the jailbreak but was never interested, but the only reason I wasn't interested was I never found any fun stuff to do with the jailbreak.
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no fun stuff? Quakes 1, 2 and 3. Numerous other games, MAME I think.
Python.
.NET
FreeDownloadManager
a torrent client
An html5 browser other than IE (hopefully chromium or Firefox eventually)
PuTTY (would be an absolute must have for me)
Loads of other software many either useful or fun or both.
It really opens up the desktop side of RT

Damn, quake sounds fun and I could use chrome ... I kind of regret getting 8.1

I see the use for a jailbreak but I think it brings the OS backwards. These desktop apps aren't optimized for touch. I think building apps for the new interface is the way to go.

Funny; I get around fine using touch on the desktop (no, my fingers aren't even tiny). Well, except for typing. That sucks, Desktop or Metro. So, I have a Touch Cover, which makes typing a lot nicer. It also has a trackpad, so I only use touch when it's better than using a trackpad.
So, now I have a keyboard and pointing device, in addition to touch, for the device to be useful to me. Care to explain to me again why using apps which are amenable to all three input methods, instead of only one, "brings the OS backwards"? Because the way I see it, taking a multi-input device and excluding all those apps which aren't (over) optimized for a single form of input is a hell of a lot *more* backward...

Dane Reynolds said:
Damn, quake sounds fun and I could use chrome ... I kind of regret getting 8.1
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I love quake and doom, been playing through doom again on my PSP actually (CFW-PRO to effectively jailbreak the PSP, then there are 2 or 3 ports for PSP)
Chrome isnt out for RT yet. GoodDayToDie had a look, but its complicated. Kudos to him for taking a look anyway, but so far 1 guy on his own hasnt managed to do it. Firefox also has its own issues. We may or may not see them eventually though. The jailbreak would be the first step before you could run them though.
As for 8.1. Trig0r has 8.0 recoveries for the surface RT which you could use to downgrade. Hopefully someone will get 8.1 jailbroken soon too, but microsoft patched the exploit that was being used before.

Thanks, I might ask for a recovery as I love gaming, speaking of gaming i know the Surface's hardware isn't high enough to run games but i was wondering if Onlive would be releasing an app for RT.

That would actually be a legitimate use for OnLive... wasn't sure I'd ever see one of those.
Surface (Pro or RT) are fine for light gaming, or for running older games. The RT does actually have NVidia graphics, they're just really underpowered. The Pro has only Intel graphics, but the Intel GMA for the i5 might actually be more powerful than the RT's Tegra 3 (haven't checked). In any case, there are lots of games known to work (if not always at max resolution / quality) on the Pro, and the RT has a number of older games which have been ported over working fine, and some old x86 games that run in the dynamic recompilation engine also working (though so far as I know, none of those ones are 3D).

ap3604 said:
Not sure why you wouldn't want to run updates but so far Windows 8.1 rocks! Makes RT so much better.
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Not on the Asus Vivo RT it doesn't :silly:
8.1 really f#&@'s up the trackpad
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I own VivoTab RT 3g - no problems with trackpad in 8.1. Currently I have no major problems with 8.1 except for the blinking screen issue that is present in 8.0 too. Even VPN works fine, so I finally can connect to my workplace and read email with Outlook, use RDP or Citrix Receiver.

how to install genymotion on surface 2???

Good morning,
I just got a new surface 2 and I would like to instal the genymotion emulator on it?
How can do it??
Many thanks for your help

You don't.
As far as I'm aware Gene motion is x86 only.
Regards,
Dave
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foxmeister said:
You don't.
As far as I'm aware Gene motion is x86 only.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
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can you suggest me an alternative?
The windows store is poor of applications and I find the tablet almost unsefull.

coluichepensa said:
can you suggest me an alternative?
The windows store is poor of applications and I find the tablet almost unsefull.
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There isn't an alternative either.
As far as I'm aware, until there is a jailbreak for Windows RT 8.1, there is no way to install applications outside of those on the Windows Store.
Regards,
Dave

foxmeister said:
There isn't an alternative either.
As far as I'm aware, until there is a jailbreak for Windows RT 8.1, there is no way to install applications outside of those on the Windows Store.
Regards,
Dave
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Not that there are any outside the Windows Store

komugi said:
Not that there are any outside the Windows Store
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Apart from those Windows apps that have been recompiled for ARM and run on a jailbroken Surface!
Granted there aren't very many, and they will almost all be open source desktop applications, but they do exist.
If MS opened up the Surface so that desktop apps could be installed, you would likely see many more. For example, Google would port Chrome to RT if they could.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

There are dozens of ported applications (see the link in my signature) with more coming slowly but steadily. There are also lots of pure .NET applications, which work fine on RT once it has been jailbroken. In addition, there are a few custom-written applications for RT, the most important of which is probably @mamaich's x86 dynamic recompilation compatibility layer (sort of like Rosetta for old Macs) that allows running some (old and/or now-demand) x86 programs on RT without modification. Work on it appears to have largely stalled (although the current version is still available, and does work for some programs on RT 8.0) while the jailbreak for RT 8.1 is in development, but I'm confident it will pick up again.

GoodDayToDie said:
There are dozens of ported applications (see the link in my signature) with more coming slowly but steadily. There are also lots of pure .NET applications, which work fine on RT once it has been jailbroken. In addition, there are a few custom-written applications for RT, the most important of which is probably @mamaich's x86 dynamic recompilation compatibility layer (sort of like Rosetta for old Macs) that allows running some (old and/or now-demand) x86 programs on RT without modification. Work on it appears to have largely stalled (although the current version is still available, and does work for some programs on RT 8.0) while the jailbreak for RT 8.1 is in development, but I'm confident it will pick up again.
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great job but I have still wait for the jailbreak, have i?

Since you have 8.1, yes, you'll need to wait. Sorry...

[Q] Use unofficial apps Surface 2 RT + playstore ?

Hi,
I want to buy a Microsoft Surface 2 with Windows 8.1 RT.
I want to know is a jailbreak is possible for this tablet, to allow me to launch unofficial apps like "the no RT windows".
I also want to know if it's possible to install Android Playstore on it, and if it's possible to watch football stream like on this site on it : http://xn--frstrowsports-39b.eu/
Thanks

OK, first of all (and should be obvious): There's no jailbreak (which is a software mod) to make an ARM processor run x86 code. That's like asking if you anybody has a way to turn an iPad into a MacBook Pro.
Second: There's no (publicly released) jailbreak for RT 8.1 at this time, but if you want to you can downgrade to 8.0 (may take a little work to get it going but is said to be possible) and then use the 8.0 jailbreak. This will let you run code on the Desktop, but the programs still need to either be .NET based or need to be recompiled from x86 (normal Windows CPU architecture) to ARM (mobile device CPU architecture). See the link in my signature.
No, you can't run Android apps on it. Same way you can't run iOS apps on Android or Android apps on iOS, or Mac apps on Windows.
There are lots of apps on the Windows store for streaming sports videos; I don't know about one for that in particular.

Okay, thanks for your help.
Because i have to choose between a Galaxy Note 10,1" and the Surface 2.
But i don't know if the surface is a good choice, because of the market. The market is really poor i think...
So, on this tablet, we are unable to use Google Chrome for exemple ?

Google has not released a version for RT, so you are correct that it won't work.
On the other hand, the Surface has full IE8.1, not just a crippled mobile UI, meaning it can do things like tracking protect/ad-blocking. It also supports (comes with) full Flashplayer, which hasn't been available on Android for years. Don't know if you find that useful.

[Q] Future of 8.1 RT

Any speculation of the future of 8.1 RT on the Surface 2? Will it be replaced by Windows 9 or 10 and eventually have some desktop applications?

Pretty sure RT 10 will be released, though the line might end there.
Third-party / unsigned desktop apps... probably not officially. Microsoft seems Really Devoted to blowing away anything below their knees where this OS is concerned, and has been observed seeking bigger footguns for this purpose (see: all the anti-jailbreak stuff in 8.1). However, assuming they don't fix the various approaches that are being worked on and even tested now, it wouldn't surprise me to see a jailbreak for RT 10 released shortly after the release of the OS itself.

I really hope you're right GoodDayToDie. The rumors I've heard about Threshold for ARM are less than encouraging... basically:
- Preview coming early next year
- Merging of Windows RT and Windows Phone
- desktop being removed.
IF true, it sounds like they're really just scaling Windows Phone for larger devices. But perhaps the desktop will still be in the code and just disabled or something. I of course am hoping that is wrong as I would hate to see it go away... I use the desktop more than the modern ui on my Surface RT, even without counting the jailbreak.
Of course what I am really hoping for is that the next version of Windows on ARM will get the same treatment as x86 Windows and allow for windowed store apps on the desktop etc. And then if it really can get a jailbreak too... awesome!
Otherwise I may be sticking with RT 8.0 for the life of the device. A dumbed-down phone OS doesn't sound like something I want to "upgrade" to. I'm sure when the Preview hits we will have a better idea of what is to come...