I've just seen Surface Pro 3 event and... i love it, i want it... i must sell my Pro 1 and buy it.
What do you think about SP3 guys?
And its 3:2 screen instead of 16:9?
I like the 16:9 screen ratio better.
The surface pro 2 is still a powerful product regardless, but imo the thing holding them back is the policy of selling the keyboard separately.
im keen to find out if the new bluetooth enabled surface pro 3 pen will work with the surface pro 2. Im definitely considering selling off my surface pro 2 to upgrade to the 3.
julz said:
im keen to find out if the new bluetooth enabled surface pro 3 pen will work with the surface pro 2. Im definitely considering selling off my surface pro 2 to upgrade to the 3.
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Click to collapse
New pen is NTrig not wacom so will not function on a pro 2.
I was disapointed about no mention of RT at all!
Loved the way that Pro 3 looks though. I have looked at all the press on it. Great looker. But way out of my price affordability at this time. I'll make do with my 1'st gen RT with 64gbs for a while. I might keep my eyes open for a bargain, I only paid $160US for mine on ebay. WIth all the stuff I've done to mine I might, maybe be able to resell for $200US, then sit and gamble for a pro 2. "Sigh" always the best man never the groom...lol
I don't know why they switched from Wacom to ntrig for the stylus.
One thing I like about my Surface Pro over my friends Sony duo 13 is that if I just want to draw 1 or 2 lines or a few words I can use the pen from my Note 3 if I the surface pen is not in easy reach.
Other than that, I like the surface pro 3. New stand looks like it will be better for writing and drawing. I do a lot of annotating on pdfs and use a combination of keyboard and pen.
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The active stylus can give better precision. Wacom is nice and works well in most cases, but on very high-density displays - such as the Surface Pro 3 has - its minimum resolution is several pixels across.
It will be interesting to see how users feel about the size over time. After I went from a 11" to 13" MacBook Air I really missed the carry ability of the 11'. Although the Pro 2 is heavy and thick, somehow the 10" size just seems right to me.
microsoft surface pro 3
Microsoft Surface Pro 3
short video of the Microsoft surface pro 3 from the webs
The thing I like the most about the Surface Pro 3 is that it doesn't make me want to replace my Surface Pro 2. The screen size is larger, which wasn't what I was looking for when I originally bought the SP2. The only highlights for the form factor that I would have liked over it is the thickness and weight.
i wish they just waited for broadwell they probably could have made thinner
MS needs to sync its release cycle with Intel's. 1st-gen Surface & Pro also had the same problem, of using previous-gen SoC that makes them obsolete even before release. For premium devices, which the Surface lines aspire to be, the target audience is early adopters who expect to have the latest tech. Intel's Mountain Llama (the Broadwell reference design) was impressive in its Computex debut, and SP3 won't fare well in the inevitable comparison.
The kickstand + keyboard cover combo also hasn't fared well. One sign of a good design, aside from selling well, is when competitors copy it. I don't see any OEM copying the keyboard cover, preferring instead to stick to more conventional "detachable" design eg Asus' Transformer series, which works better for fast typing.
This latter has its own issue of being top-heavy, thus needing to add counterbalance weight to the keyboard dock and increasing overall weight. Intel's ref design avoids this by not putting the docking point at the edge of the dock, thereby creating an "outrigger" that prevents tip-over. Most aftermarket keyboard docks for iPad use this setup. Its other advantages: lighter than conventional detachable, more rigid than MS' design and being more "lapable," and works in portrait. One improvement would be to add an adjustable hinge.
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I see SP3 having a short shelf life, and not just because of the obsoleted SoC. If MS sticks to its new spring release cycle for Windows as rumored, then Win9 should see a corresponding Surface launch, along with Office Touch, about 10 months from now. The i3 and i7 versions of SP3 won't ship until end of August, which gives them about a 7-month shelf life.
e.mote said:
The kickstand + keyboard cover combo also hasn't fared well. One sign of a good design, aside from selling well, is when competitors copy it. I don't see any OEM copying the keyboard cover, preferring instead to stick to more conventional "detachable" design eg Asus' Transformer series, which works better for fast typing.
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Click to collapse
Agree on syncing new Surfaces to Intel's processor releases, but totally disagree on the kickstand and covers. I love being able to just flip the cover up to make more room on my desk, flip it down when I need to do some work, or use the tablet upright without a keyboard at all - keeping something up just for reference, watching a movie, etc.
I totally don't get all the focus people put on how the kickstand works (or doesn't) on the lap. In the past 20 years, I don't think I've used a laptop on my lap more than dozen times. On a desk, I'd take a kickstand over a traditional notebook any day. It's also nice that you get both a keyboard and cover in what? 3-4mm?
For people who prefer something closer to a traditional laptop, there's plenty of choices, I really the Surface retains the kickstand.
As for the Pro 3, I see it much the same as the original Pro - some nice features but just not enough to make me want to buy one. The processor has already been mentioned, the switch away from the Wacom pen, and I actually prefer the smaller screen on the Pro 1 and 2. I could be tempted by a Pro 4 or maybe 5, but my 2 is serving me perfectly well for now.
>totally disagree on the kickstand and covers. I love being able to just flip the cover up...In the past 20 years, I don't think I've used a laptop on my lap more than dozen times...
"I like it"/"works for me" isn't an argument.
>I totally don't get all the focus people put on how the kickstand works (or doesn't) on the lap
Lap use is one instance in the spectrum of computing use mobility. At one end of the spectrum is usage while walking, ie with a phone. Next is using the device while standing. After that, is sitting without a desk (ie lap use). Then, sitting with a desk. Finally, sitting with a desk in a pre-determined location (ie a desktop PC).
By not being able to use the device well while sitting and without a desk, the Surface is even less mobile than a laptop for high-speed typing. That's why MS was so persistent with the "lapability" argument, which was shot down by the majority of reviews of SP3, from journalists and bloggers who do need that mobility.
>It's also nice that you get both a keyboard and cover in what? 3-4mm?
Thinness is visually appealing and is a selling point, but ergonomically it doesn't matter. For a tablet, which is a handheld device, weight and shape are what counts. For a keyboard, thinness affects more important things, like key travel, which affects typing speed. The Surface type cover is an inferior keyboard for typing, even by the relatively low standard of laptop keyboards.
>I really the Surface retains the kickstand.
Archos tablets have had the kickstand for many years, and it was never a big deal (read: not a selling point). Anyway, it's not a matter of having or not having a kickstand, but how to have the display at a desired angle with the least hassle. For decades, the clamshell form was the least hassle. MS' kickstand design hasn't proven to be an adequate replacement. Of present designs, the one in the above pic is IMO the most efficient.
e.mote said:
Of present designs, the one in the above pic is IMO the most efficient.
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Click to collapse
for once, and this is a rare occasion, I actually agree with you.
My laptop rarely if ever touches a desk. Had a guy round with his surface RT and frankly it was absolutely useless as a laptop replacement ergonomically (we'll ignore software) in the places I use my laptop.
e.mote said:
"I like it"/"works for me" isn't an argument.
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Click to collapse
I didn't *just* say "I like it", I gave specific examples of where the kickstand is adventitious.
e.mote said:
Lap use is one instance in the spectrum of computing use mobility. At one end of the spectrum is usage while walking, ie with a phone. Next is using the device while standing. After that, is sitting without a desk (ie lap use). Then, sitting with a desk. Finally, sitting with a desk in a pre-determined location (ie a desktop PC).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, so what's your point? Every device trades some proficiency in one area to gain some in another. If an individual's use case requires a significant amount of "lap use", that should steer them in the direction of devices that prioritize that type of use. That doesn't make a device that prioritizes another area wrong, it simple makes it potentially the wrong device for that that person. And I say potentially because I've made a point of using my Surface on my lap to see what all the fuss is about, and I don't see the issue. Perhaps it doesn't work quite as well as a traditional hinged notebook with a rigid keyboard, but for all but the most demanding of needs, it works just fine.
Personally, the minor trade-off in proficiency for lap use is far outweighed by it's increased abilities elsewhere - as I mentioned, using it on a table/desk/counter/hood of a car/etc without the keyboard at all, being able to flip the cover up to save space while the device remains standing, etc. Again, if an individual can't accept that trade-off, then the Surface simply isn't the best device for their needs.
e.mote said:
By not being able to use the device well while sitting and without a desk, the Surface is even less mobile than a laptop for high-speed typing.
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Click to collapse
And by being able to use the device upright without a keyboard, the Surface is more useful than a tablet, so what's your point? If high-speed typing on one's lap is a primary concern, then they should be buying a dedicated notebook or a convertible that uses the hinged, clamshell design with a rigid keyboard. As I said in my previous post, I simply don't understand this mindset that says the Surface HAS to function AS WELL AS a traditional notebook. No, it doesn't. Thankfully, there's any number of other systems on the market that do prioritize that use case.
e.mote said:
Thinness is visually appealing and is a selling point, but ergonomically it doesn't matter. For a tablet, which is a handheld device, weight and shape are what counts. For a keyboard, thinness affects more important things, like key travel, which affects typing speed. The Surface type cover is an inferior keyboard for typing, even by the relatively low standard of laptop keyboards.
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Click to collapse
Thinness is directly related to weight and shape, so to say thinness is nice, but weight and shape are more important is just being disingenuous. And again you're laser focused on absolute typing performance, which is fine, but it simply makes the Surface not the right device for you, it doesn't make the Surface the wrong design for everyone.
e.mote said:
Archos tablets have had the kickstand for many years, and it was never a big deal (read: not a selling point).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had several Archos products over the years, and trust me, there's ample reasons their products weren't big sellers. I generally like their overall designs and concepts, but they have a knack for always undermining the whole device with one or two painfully sub-standard components, be it a terrible screen, resistive touch input as opposed to capacitive, etc.
e.mote said:
Anyway, it's not a matter of having or not having a kickstand, but how to have the display at a desired angle with the least hassle. For decades, the clamshell form was the least hassle. MS' kickstand design hasn't proven to be an adequate replacement. Of present designs, the one in the above pic is IMO the most efficient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll agree there, the original Pro's single angle was pretty restrictive, and the Pro 2's two angles is barely more than adequate. I haven't found it to be an issue, but I can see that some would. I think the only features of the Pro 3 that I find compelling are the new kickstand and the thinner/lighter design.
But returning to the actual design, I'll absolutely agree with everything you said as it pertains to making the device better for someone who needs A- absolute typing performance, and B- has the frequent need to use the device on their lap. Absolutely, a rigid keyboard with equal to greater weight to the display and a strong hinged design would make for a better lap typing experience. And I'll again say that there's any number of systems that offer exactly that - from dedicated laptops to convertibles that use the rigid clamshell design. None of this makes the Surface's design wrong, it simply makes it the wrong device for those individuals, just as dedicated notebooks and rigid, clamshell convertibles are the the wrong device for my needs.
The market is big enough for multiple form factors - not every device needs to share a single overall design, because not every person has precisely the same needs. The market already has countless rigid clamshell type devices, please let those of us who don't prioritize high-speed typing on our laps have our ONE device that best fits our needs, ok?
Without having done a painful amount of digging, please allow me to butt in for a moment and ask, ate there any threads here dedicated to development or tweaking of the sp3? I just got the i7 512 model to use as the heart of a semi portable recording studio (a good amount of real-time number crunching) and was looking to get the most I can out of it. So far, with the little benchmarking and playing with Undervolting a little, I haven't seen this chip do any thermal throttling and haven't gotten any real increase in benchmark. It seems this thing is pretty damn efficient. I came across an article where people were getting major increase in benchmarks by Undervolting but with the i5. (less voltage, less heat, more time at "turbo" less fan noise - ideal for audio production) Well, hey before I REALLY start rambling, if anyone has any resources or suggestions I'd be much obliged.
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Related
Reviews with accompanying video moved to bottom for readability.
Ars Technica
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/microsofts-first-stab-at-a-pc-surface-reviewed/
Verdict: Surface RT is a nice tablet, but Windows RT is an unknown.
AnandTech
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review
LaptopMag
http://www.laptopmag.com/review/tablets/microsoft-surface-rt.aspx
Verdict: 3.5/5
Pros: Striking industrial design; Innovative Touch Cover; Sharp display; Microsoft Office included; Long battery life
Cons: Few high-quality apps available for now; Poor-quality cameras; Sluggish and unresponsive at times
The Verdict: The Surface and its innovative Touch Cover proves that Microsoft can make hardware to rival the iPad, but the app ecosystem needs to catch up.
New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/t...eils-the-surface-its-first-tablet-review.html
"Sleek Tablet, but Clumsy Software"
ABCNews
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/mi...indows-tablet-turned-laptop/story?id=17540348
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/video/microsoft-surface-rt-video-review-17549478 (video review)
Wired
http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/10/microsoft-surface/all/
AllThingsD
http://allthingsd.com/20121023/hardworking-tablet-with-pc-chops/
Gizmodo
http://gizmodo.com/5953866
TheVerge
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3540550/microsoft-surface-review
Verdict: 7/10.
Pluses: Ambitious new software. Solidly made, handsome hardware. Full Office suite. Excellent battery life.
Minuses: Performance is hit or miss. Weak ecosystem. Buggy software. Doesn't live up to hybrid promise.
Engadget
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/
As a perspective, the Anandtech review compared prelim performance numbers against an (unnamed) Clovertrail tablet:
"On the user experience side alone, the Clovertrail tablet is noticeably quicker than Surface. Surface isn’t slow by any means, but had it used Atom hardware it would’ve been even more responsive.
"Across the board Clovertrail manages a 30 - 50% advantage over Tegra 3. Granted we’re not looking at power consumption here, but the Clovertrail tablet I’m comparing is even smaller/lighter than Surface for what it’s worth."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review/10
On the ergonomics of the Touch/TypeCover, a key selling point for Surface:
http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/
"However, the Touch Covers reveal the Surface’s fundamental flaw: The Surface is ungainly large when deployed. When used with the Surface’s kickstand and a Touch Cover, the whole contraption is 10-inches deep. That’s the same depth as a 15-inch MacBook Pro. An iPad with a Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard is only 7-inches deep; most ultrabooks are 9-inches or under. A Surface with a Touch Cover barely fits on most airplane seat-back trays; it doesn’t work at all on the trays that pull out of an armrest. That’s a problem.
"This design makes it very hard to use the Surface with a Touch Cover anywhere but a tabletop. It needs a 10-inch deep flat surface. I could not use the Surface with a Touch Cover sitting in an armchair, walking around, or laying on my back in bed. Forget about using it on the commode; it sits too precariously on the legs for comfort. These are use-cases that I do nearly daily with my iPad and Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard. The Surface is only usable when seated at a table or desk."
On video out:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review/6
"On the left edge of the device there’s a custom video out port that can be paired with a Microsoft made VGA or HDMI dongle. I tested HDMI output with Microsoft's dongle and unfortunately the result wasn't very good. The 1080p output had a lot of issues with scaling quality (as you can see from the shot below) and there was a lot of tearing on the screen with a big impact on UI frame rate."
I did have the same thought about plains and trains etc its a real pain. Though its worth noting that you should be able to plug in a standard keyboard and do away with the cover. I really don't think its worth the extra £100 that said I think the whole thing is overpriced! That said I am an MS fanboi so I will be getting mine but I do fear that they went for looks over function.
If I had a spare £1000 the best I have seen by a clear mile is the sony duo 11, that device makes the surface look pathetic but then at double the price it really should.
lumpaywk said:
I did have the same thought about plains and trains etc its a real pain. Though its worth noting that you should be able to plug in a standard keyboard and do away with the cover. I really don't think its worth the extra £100 that said I think the whole thing is overpriced! That said I am an MS fanboi so I will be getting mine but I do fear that they went for looks over function.
If I had a spare £1000 the best I have seen by a clear mile is the sony duo 11, that device makes the surface look pathetic but then at double the price it really should.
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Click to collapse
I love how all these reviewers are ragging on the app selection alleady - The thing is just coming out and all of the apps are being wrtiten for tablet - There's already like 4k and more are to come since its part of full Win8 as well. Even the Ipad doesn't have many apps written just for tablet. What's also frustrating is they are saying how buggy it is - Give me a break, like MS is not going to ever update the thing. I guess the tech world has higher expectations because its MS and they love Apple so much.
Let the product be released and get in the real world for a bit before we cast judgement.
As long as the hardware is solid, which it sounds like it is, the rest will be sorted out.
guitar1969 said:
I love how all these reviewers are ragging on the app selection allready - The thing is just coming out and all of the apps are wrtiten for tablet - There's already like 4k and more are to come since its part of full Win8 as well. Even the Ipad doesn't have many apps written just for tablet. What's also frustrating is they are saying how buggy it is - Give me a break, like MS is not going to every update the thing.
Let the product be released and get in the real world.
As long as the hardware is solid, which ist sounds like it is, the rest will be sorted out.
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Click to collapse
if the reviewers don't point out both positive and negatives of today, when should they?
its been released to the real world, folks are giving real reviews, today.
last i saw the ipad and mini ipad have somewhere near 275,000 applications.
its not mature, that's for sure. if there were no issues to improve, it would stagnate and not change. I love to read honest, real reviews pointing out possibilities for improvement, it means there -will- be improvement.
I began to pre-order a Surface RT and after looking at the comparison between RT and Pro, I backed out. After the Surface started shipping I read two conflicting reviews from blog sites that I read often. This reinforced my opinion to wait for Pro.
A few days ago I wandered into a MS popup store and played with it. I also found out that MS offers a no-restock 14 day return policy, so not much risk.
Some of the negatives I've read:
- thin keyboard cover - keyboard is bad, trackpad sucks. In my opinion so far - the keyboard and trackpad are both fantastic. I wish the trackpad as a slippery surface but other than that, it's great.
- screen resolution stinks. Well, by the numbers that's true - it's nothing to write home about, however, as with the Lumia 900 (also a low screen resolution), the OS is really optimized for large, vivid text and clean graphics which in many ways masks the low resolution. I honestly did not find myself missing more pixels
- limited app selection - this one is absolutely true, however there are a number out and more coming, but it is a good reason to pause and think carefully
Based on my experience so far, it's my opinion that if you want a tablet, you probably don't want the Surface Pro. That's right, the Pro. The RT may be the right device.
Why?
- the Pro is almost twice as thick
- the Pro is a half-pound heavier
- battery life? who knows
- battery life/performance balance could prove to be a challenge with WIn 8 Pro
- virus protection, spyware/malware scanners come back into play and take up processor cycles and may suck battery
Despite not having "full Windows", why do I like the Surface RT?
- thin
- light
- SD card slot
- full USB port
- video out (VGA or HDMI)
- Bluetooth
- Office 2013
- Support for LinkedIn, FB, Exchange, Google, and MS accounts (with very clean integration for contacts, calendar, and messaging
I've used a hard stylus on a tablet before (Galaxy Note and Xyboard 10.1). I can tell you that I've most frequently used a stylus to interact with smaller icons on the screen. It was never hyper-accurate enough for real drawing. For that, I'd need a Wacom tablet. Not having a stylus with the RT is not a loss for me, and the whole UI is designed for fingers and a keyboard. I don't see the application for a stylus.
So what do I think is missing?
For me, really only one thing... the Juniper Junos Pulse client. I was able to get the installer but it won't install because it's not an ARM-friendly installer file. That's the only thing I'd love to have an x86 emulator for. Other than that, I'm happy so far. Lots more testing to do this week.
All in all though I find the Surface RT to be a great piece of kit, and probably a better main stream device than the Pro. Even putting aside the price, I think the size/weight will make it less appealing for most.
My perfect match is a dull desktop system running Win 7, and the Surface RT. I just hope that more mainstream app developers will get on board quickly.
I suppose only time will tell.
I also think its worth a note that the pro will likely cost around (uk) £800 - £900 and if you are going fo that much and want full blown windows etc its worth looking at the Sony Vaio duo. I played with it for quite some time in store and I am fully in love. Its big and heavy for a tablet but its far more powerful and has a much more useable keyboard. I really recommend anyone who can spend that much take a real look at it as it makes the surface pro look like a toy.
I think you two have summed it up perfectly. After installing Win8 Pro on my 6 month old latop this weekend I've come round to the idea that an RT tablet does the job of a tablet perfectly, with the current limitation of app variety. I have a desktop which is just used for gaming, laptop and ipad.
I can see me changing the ipad for a Surface RT. keeping Win 8 pro on the laptop, Win 7 on the desktop.
A few more points:
RT still allows Flash in the browser, running software as Admin, scripting with CMD or Powershell, unlocking for sideloading, and using system utilities like Disk Management (if you're feeling bold, you can reclaim a few gigs of storage by nuking the Recovery partition and extending the OS partition into it).
RT really does get great battery life. I mean, seriously excellent. Microoft's 8-hour estimate is, if anything, possibly a bit conservative. I was able to simultaneously play music (streamed over WiFi), copy a ton of files from my main box (13GB of music), and browse the web at the same time, and the battery drain during that time was... about 12%/hour. That's 8 hours of heavy usage, not just everyday stuff. 3 hours of Skype call, historically a horrifically battery-draining app, took maybe 40% of the battery.
Surface RT has no moving parts internally. No fans, in particular. The Surface Pro isn't actually anywhere near twice as thick (it's about 4mm more, I think; that's less than 50% thicker) but it will need to have fans, and to vent heat. MS did a very neat design where it vents all around the rim, instead of making a single hot spot, but still...
We've already figured out how to run third-party desktop EXEs on Windows RT. Aside from putting our own OS on the hardware, Surface is already pretty well jailbroken, and we're just barely getting started!
GoodDayToDie said:
A few more points:
RT still allows Flash in the browser, running software as Admin, scripting with CMD or Powershell, unlocking for sideloading, and using system utilities like Disk Management (if you're feeling bold, you can reclaim a few gigs of storage by nuking the Recovery partition and extending the OS partition into it).
RT really does get great battery life. I mean, seriously excellent. Microoft's 8-hour estimate is, if anything, possibly a bit conservative. I was able to simultaneously play music (streamed over WiFi), copy a ton of files from my main box (13GB of music), and browse the web at the same time, and the battery drain during that time was... about 12%/hour. That's 8 hours of heavy usage, not just everyday stuff. 3 hours of Skype call, historically a horrifically battery-draining app, took maybe 40% of the battery.
Surface RT has no moving parts internally. No fans, in particular. The Surface Pro isn't actually anywhere near twice as thick (it's about 4mm more, I think; that's less than 50% thicker) but it will need to have fans, and to vent heat. MS did a very neat design where it vents all around the rim, instead of making a single hot spot, but still...
We've already figured out how to run third-party desktop EXEs on Windows RT. Aside from putting our own OS on the hardware, Surface is already pretty well jailbroken, and we're just barely getting started!
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Click to collapse
If I can get Eclipse on Windows RT, then it is game over.
I will get Windows RT instead of Pro.
Interesting thoughts. I move back and forth daily on what one to get. I wish the RT port was USB 3.0. And the lower resolution screen is still a concern of mine.
Really though, I want a 64GB without the Touch/Type keyboards. I'll never use them and unless they are thrown in? I'll pass.
GoodDayToDie said:
We've already figured out how to run third-party desktop EXEs on Windows RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you please clarify? Any links or threads that provide info on this? Thought this was impossible.
He's referring to this thread, specifically post #10.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1885399
e.mote said:
He's referring to this thread, specifically post #10.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1885399
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. That's what I figured. I read that thread some time ago - sort of a dead end - not really a practical solution.
You would need source code, and then the ability to self-sign could be easily revoked at any time, disabling all hacked 3rd party apps with one update.
GoodDayToDie said:
A few more points:
Surface RT has no moving parts internally. No fans, in particular. The Surface Pro isn't actually anywhere near twice as thick (it's about 4mm more, I think; that's less than 50% thicker) but it will need to have fans, and to vent heat. MS did a very neat design where it vents all around the rim, instead of making a single hot spot, but still...
We've already figured out how to run third-party desktop EXEs on Windows RT. Aside from putting our own OS on the hardware, Surface is already pretty well jailbroken, and we're just barely getting started!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I looked at the specs again, I had my facts wrong - it is just about 50% thicker, not twice as thick, but that still makes a big difference.
One other thing I noticed is that Surface Pro doesn't come with Office, so aside from the cost of the tablet, add another $150-$300 to the cost to get parity with the Surface RT.
In addition, I noticed this:
Connectivity:
Surface RT: Always connected, even when in standby mode. Connected standby keeps apps up-to-date.
Surface Pro: Connectivity off when hibernating/sleeping to preserve battery.
Something tells me MS already knows battery will be a problem with the Pro. There is no standby with the Pro, only the PC-esque hibernate/sleep, so there will be lag when starting up and you can't "peek" at your device to see messages.
Full side-by-side comparison of specs available here:
http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/surface-with-windows-rt/help-me-choose
What is the camera specs like in megapixels?
1.0 front and back for RT. It is a seriously bad camera.
Would like to know what will come with Pro. Though, I will say I was pretty convinced I wanted Pro instead, but after reading this thread I'm on the fence.
compty said:
What is the camera specs like in megapixels?
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Click to collapse
Same 720p (just shy of 1MP) camera, front and back, for both the RT and the Pro. Most people don't realize this but even a 1080p screen is only 2MP. So although the resolution is not that high, it is enough to fill the screen of the RT without enlarging the image. Interestingly, on the Surface Pro, viewing an image taken with the camera in full-screen mode may look pixelated.
A detailed spec sheet with side-by-side comparison is here.
Just received mine. It is much heavier than I thought. Haven't turned it on yet. Want to fully charge it.
One thing of concern is that somehow there is a tiny and I mean tiny scratch/scuff in the casing by the cover connector which shows a sliver of silver (metal) underneath. I am wondering how durable the black coating is on the casing and if lots of scratches will scuff away at the paint.
Meh, nowadays its sort of the norm to have decent cameras, especially on the back. I suppose I won't be taking many pictures with the surface anyway.
I started a compatibility thread here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1964402
Lots of great stuff with the RT, much to my surprise. I really thought some of these features would be reserved for the Pro. I have to say I am impressed.
If we can overcome the Junos Pulse issue this can easily be my daily driver system.
Hello all
I am the owner of the Nexus 7 and i'm thinking to get the Microsoft Surface RT. I heard it was a lot laggy but these sources last from November 2012 and I guess Microsoft had the time to update and fix a lot of bugs.
So, how is as today the Microsoft Surface RT? Still laggy? Are there case where it always lags? Are games running smooth? Is Microsoft Office running smooth by now? Is the slow typing issue fixed? I want to know everything
Comparing to a Nexus 7, which will I find smoother? Which will I find best for games?
PS: I don't really play games but it tells more about specs
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
For the most part it is fixed. You may get lag in PowerPoint and ink in word. Other than that... Smooth.
Sent from my Evo V 4G using XDA Premium HD app
mines fine, but I am having a replacement.... (all cosmetic damage)
Performance; fast, no lag, smooth gaming(what ever games you can find)
Design; the magnesium case makes the surface amazing to the touch, it feels solid yet light.
it gives you confidence for when you drop it. Kickstand is brilliant (mine is still attached)
All The Good Stuff;
the surface has expandable memory(supports up to 64GB Class 10 SD)
battery life is acceptable(about 8 hours give or take - depending on what your doing)
kickstand (not adjustable)
type cover (I've had a few problems with this, but all have been replaced for free)
Not All Good;
speakers (but they can be made louder in settings)
crappy app selection (a few xbox games)
standard screen
heavy ( a little heavier than ipad)
glitches in the OS
type cover is hard to use
Hope I helped a little, things maybe added to the list!
I haven't found lag to be a problem in general when running native apps (emulated x86 is a different story, although even there most apps that work at all work pretty well). Both tablets use the same CPU/GPU and have the same RAM, so performance of the hardware is nearly a wash (the Surface RT has marginally higher resolution than the Nexus 7, which will probably have a trivial impact). Games that I've played on it run smoothly, if not necessarily at *very* high framerates. I can't compare it to the Nexus 7 as I haven't spent enough time using one, but performance is not a problem for me either gaming or browsing the web. The email client used to be laggy as hell; that's now much better. I've actually done a non-trivial Powerpoint deck on the Surface RT, and had no noteworthy problems with lag there either (scrolling was just a little stutter if I went fast, but that happens even on my work PC) although my slides weren't terribly complex.
The biggest differences, specs-wise, between the two tablets are that the N7 has GPS, NFC, and optional cellular data, but comes at 16 or 32 GB of non-expandable storage, while the Surface RT has a rear-facing camera as well as the front-facing one, 32 or 64GB of internal storage, and a microSD slot. The Surface RT also has a standard USB host port, which makes it easy to add additional storage or connect other types of devices like gamepads, cellular dongles, and even phones or other tablets (although no, it cannot run ADB).
EDIT: I'm wrong, the Nexus 7 has only 1GB of RAM, which is half as much as the Surface RT. Surface should support heavy apps and multitasking far better than N7.
Thanks for all those comments if other people have some stuffs to add I'm willing to hear them
What do you guys mean by OS Glitch?
Also, is the tablet scratch proof? (screen and back)
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
The Surface line is *extremely* durable. The chassis has been shown to survive everything from being used as a skateboard (at one of the announcement presentations) to flying off a car roof on the freeway (albeit with some denting); search and you'll find these incidents. It's intended to withstand multiple drops onto concrete from "person height" of like 3.5' or so (mid-torso-ish; I should ask my friend who works in that department again). I've personally stepped on mine by accident (lying on carpet, though) with no damage at all. The screen is Corning Gorilla Glass 2, which is extremely scratch resistant, and with the metal chassis protecting the edges, it's also very shatter-resistant. In other words, it's as close to "scratch proof" as any real-world consumer object is going to be. It is technically possible to break the kickstand, but the demo video I saw required putting a large part of a grown man's weight on the top edge of the tablet (with kickstand open) before the hinges gave.
Also, in case you didn't see above, I screwed up on the spec comparison in my previous post. The Surface RT has 2GB of RAM, twice as much as the N7. Windows RT will probably have a larger base memory footprint than Android, but the difference should still allow for a lot more multitasking and also for larger programs or data sets (I've loaded really huge Excel spreadsheets with no problem, and regularly have dozens of browser tabs open, for example).
Thanks you Just watched a lot of videos on destructions test and performance So far so great
Now isn't a great time to buy hardware, since this is the tail end for last year's hardware cycle. Models, especially RT ones, are hitting clearance. There's the Dell XPS 10 RT (posted in Windows RT forum) for $250 if you want to jump. No firsthand knowledge, but the XPS 10's Snapdragon S4 is faster than the Surface's Tegra 3.
Edit: Looks like the Dell XPS 10 deal is dead. Please ignore.
jamesst20 said:
Thanks for all those comments if other people have some stuffs to add I'm willing to hear them
What do you guys mean by OS Glitch?
Also, is the tablet scratch proof? (screen and back)
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Screen has had no scratches so far.... And for the back of the device, well that has had a few scratches, I think they are from my keys and loose change.
e.mote said:
Now isn't a great time to buy hardware, since this is the tail end for last year's hardware cycle. Models, especially RT ones, are hitting clearance. There's the Dell XPS 10 RT (posted in Windows RT forum) for $250 if you want to jump. No firsthand knowledge, but the XPS 10's Snapdragon S4 is faster than the Surface's Tegra 3.
Edit: Looks like the Dell XPS 10 deal is dead. Please ignore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you mean? I don't think the Microsoft Surface RT 2 will be out before end of 2013 or maybe start of 2014 :$ and rumors says it will be smaller
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Gorilla glass has a very high hardness rating, in general in order for an object to get a scratch the object scratching it has to have a higher hardness rating (no innuendo intended).
There are few common items with a higher hardness than gorilla glass. Some precious gems like diamond and sapphire (by extension ruby) will easily do it, so basically don't try scratching a wedding ring (if you happen to be married and using a diamond ring if course) against your screen. A few rare alloys can do it. Gorilla glass shards are of course the same hardness as gorilla glass so can also damage the screen. Sand (both builders and beach) is also capable of scratching the screen. That's about it. If you really tried you could do it with a material softer than gorilla glass but chances are by that point your not scratching the screen but plain shattering it (which is one thing, gorilla glass is damned scratch resistant and pretty tough but still possible to shatter)
>What do you mean?
My dad did fortune-telling as a hobby, mostly for friends and acquaintances. He did palm-reading, and had all these complicated astrological charts. One thing I've learned from him is that people don't want to hear the truth (inasmuch as "truth" can be divined) if it's bad news; they only want good news. Fortune telling isn't about reading people's fate as much as reading people.
Likewise, people asking for opinions from existing owners aren't looking for advice as much as affirmation, because the natural tendency for owners is bias toward their already-made choice. It's called the confirmation bias.
>I want to know everything.
You won't know much by asking questions with only one answer. Do the work and start reading. Windows RT and Surface RT have been covered ad nauseam on tech sites, including this forum.
But that's not what you want to hear, so I'll oblige: I think the Surface RT is perfect for you. Buy now. Don't wait. There's always something better down the line, and you can keep waiting forever.
e.mote said:
>What do you mean?
My dad did fortune-telling as a hobby, mostly for friends and acquaintances. He did palm-reading, and had all these complicated astrological charts. One thing I've learned from him is that people don't want to hear the truth (inasmuch as "truth" can be divined) if it's bad news; they only want good news. Fortune telling isn't about reading people's fate as much as reading people.
Likewise, people asking for opinions from existing owners aren't looking for advice as much as affirmation, because the natural tendency for owners is bias toward their already-made choice. It's called the confirmation bias.
>I want to know everything.
You won't know much by asking questions with only one answer. Do the work and start reading. Windows RT and Surface RT have been covered ad nauseam on tech sites, including this forum.
But that's not what you want to hear, so I'll oblige: I think the Surface RT is perfect for you. Buy now. Don't wait. There's always something better down the line, and you can keep waiting forever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't worry I did read a lot
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
By the way, I forgot to give some news here!
Ar first I bought the Microsoft Surface RT. I really realky enjoyed it! The only thing I didn't like from it was a few missing apps (such as Facebook) and maybe a missing Microsoft Visual Studio. I really wished I could do some programming on it So yeah after a week I returned it.
I then bought the Surface Pro wich I liked way more. Faster and I could use my Windows Programs I didn't like the fact the Pro version couldn't receive notifications in sleep mode, that really disapointed me. Also, it was impossible to set alarm since in sleep mode it wouldn't ring.
I had to sell it about 3 months later because I needed money to afford my school books and stuff but really, I really liked that tablet.
Envoyé depuis mon Nexus 4 avec Tapatalk
my note pro 12 is on the way - however as the surface pro 3 was announced, im sceptical about whether this still remains a good choice. i got it discounted from the original skyrocket prices, for 500GBP.
I suppose surface pro 3 base model will be rather expensive, which makes this choice easier. however it seems that its stylus technology might be better for handwriting
You do realize the Surface uses the same Wacom pens?
The design of the Spen, particularly its size, is admittedly very, very inconvenient. It's perfect on my 5.7" Note 3, but on 12.2" it's just too tiny. (And I'm saying that with small female hands. I can't even begin to imagine how you lot must experience it...)
If the pen is the only debating point, try the Wacom Bamboo Feel for Note. It comes in plastic and in carbon, with the latter being a bit more expensive but it feels like a real solid good oldfashioned pen. I'm using it, makes writing so much easier.
http://www.wacom.com/en/de/everyday/bamboo-stylus-feel-carbon
http://www.wacom.com/en/de/everyday/bamboo-stylus-feel
I'll admit the Surface 3 looks tempting. The dealkiller for me is the Intel HD 4400. The demonspawn of the GPU market, those Intel HD's have always been a disgrace to graphic cards. Show me one with an Nvidia card and I'll consider it. I can't run Adobe CS6 on an IntelHD, and I can't game on one, either. So what does that leave me with? The same tablet as I already have. As a designer, Android is simply much more personal.
I agree with everything above except the fact that the cheapest model is quite cheap with an i3. And they claim that their new pen technology (not wacom) and with the "thinnest" optical stack, is like, very good and improved..
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Free mobile app
Surface Pro 3 stylus uses N-Trig technology, not compatible with Wacom.
Enviado desde mi SM-P605 mediante Tapatalk
KoryandR said:
Surface Pro 3 stylus uses N-Trig technology, not compatible with Wacom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A terrible decision, in my opinion as a digital artist. Wacom has a longstanding reputation in the digital art industry as the best brand used for digital drawing, painting and writing. By everyone from the first beginner (Bamboo) to Hollywood and the largest game studios(Intuos, CintiQ).
I guess Microsoft prefers the bigger $$$ from note taking side of business sales. Artists who can afford a Wacom Cintiq Companion may go that way instead (more pressure levels, angle detection, express keys and so).
Enviado desde mi SM-P605 mediante Tapatalk
N-Trig is the stylus tech used in the HTC Flyer wasn't it? Does it still need a separate battery in the stylus to work?
Its my long time experience that it comes down to what you want to use them for. I have used NTrig pens on Lenovo's 1st (and only) pen tablet. It worked fine for long while, until lenovo stopped updating it, and i never felt like rooting it. NTrig does have to use a AAAA battery, sine Wacom has a patent on the non-battery magnetic tech. Yes, the HTC Flyer was kind of meh, but i've also used the NTrig on a newer Viao. So as far as writing or art, its close if not identical to feel as a wacom. Just that battery is tough to find sometimes, and not really cheap.
I recently got the Note 12.2 as well, and am loving it. I love doing digital art, and use this as a giant digital sketchbook. A Surface Pro falls short in a few places for my needs. And it has nothing to do with the tech or battery life. (the latter could be better) Using windows art programs on a portable tablet, without a keyboard, would slow me down. Buttons are not big enough to quickly change menus or tools. Pinch to zoom and pan are clumsy if included at all. And windows 8 is still unintuitive and annoying. By the same token, i have a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop i draw on as well, so i can always take sketches from one, and clean them up real nice on the other.
If you were using it for mostly notes, and wanted the MS Office atmosphere, then i think either is perfectly fine. Get a nice bluetooth keyboard for the note with a comfortable case, and baby, you got a stew going. (and potentially cheaper than the Surface's neat but expensive magnetic keyboard.) And a neat little tip, if you do want to make the arts, get a matte screen protector. (also sometimes called anti-glare) It has a bit of texture to feel a little like paper. And i got the SPen with eraser for the note 2 to use with the note 12.2. Its about the size of a regular ballpoint pen, and pretty cheap on amazon. I would just recommend changing the rubber tip to the plastic one if you're using a matte screen. Rubber feels weird, like rubbing a balloon slowly.
Hi, so decided to stump up for the Pixel C using the developer discount. Overall am happy with the tablet. Now time to decide what sort of casing I need for it. I'm based in HK and there is a serious lackage of accessories (apart from the keyboard which is roughly the same price as in the USA). I've heard some rumours that the keyboard starches the tablet up, is that true? If so, would a tempered glass screen help?
Anyway, so my normal usage for the tablet will be more media consumption (video watching), bit of reading etc. I will probably use it for working when travelling (i.e. emails, maybe document review via Citrix Receiver). But typing isn't the main concern.
I do like having a folio cover, because you can prop it up for watching videos. But having a keyboard would also be nice for those times I need to type with it. So maybe the folio keyboard (which isn't available in HK, but I'll be in the USA in a few weeks). But then is US$150 justified for buying something I would use maybe 20% of the time?
I appreciate you can use the keyboard as a stand, but I guess its not as good as a folio (and folio is certainly cheaper). Argh, decisions!
I´m using this one for my devices. On amazon or other stores the prices are reduced. You can pair 2 devices at twice and the keyboard is really space saving.
Yep, to me both keyboard solutions from Google are too expensive. Maybe one day I'll get one (and they discount it as well).
I ended up getting the ProCase Sleeve for the Pixel C and the MoKo Google Pixel C Case from Amazon. Both in black. I switch back and forth occasionally depending on what I'm doing. I'm really happy with both of them.
I, personally, have the folio keyboard case. Yes it was expensive, but it's so tightly integrated into the pixel C that it's hard to fault. It's made from real leather, is extremely protective, looks great and has 5 options for holding the tablet:
Positions 1 & 2 - Keyboard enabled with the tablet in one of the two magnetic typing positions
Position 3 - tablet stretched so that the chin goes over the leading edge of the keyboard. Make it great for using while laying down, having the tablet lay on your chest/stomach
Position 4 - tablet docked in magnetic tray and keyboard flipped back 180 degrees
Position 5 - you can remove the tablet from the magnetic tray super easily, close the folio, then magnetically attach the tablet to the leather back of the folio. This protects the keyboard while also giving you something less slippery to hold on to while using the tablet as, well, a tablet.
I DO wish the keyboard had function keys like the Belkin keyboard I purchased for my wife's iPad. The Belkin's keys are smaller, but still work fine. I'd happy trade key size for more usable keys.
Psyclism said:
I, personally, have the folio keyboard case. Yes it was expensive, but it's so tightly integrated into the pixel C that it's hard to fault. It's made from real leather, is extremely protective, looks great and has 5 options for holding the tablet:
Positions 1 & 2 - Keyboard enabled with the tablet in one of the two magnetic typing positions
Position 3 - tablet stretched so that the chin goes over the leading edge of the keyboard. Make it great for using while laying down, having the tablet lay on your chest/stomach
Position 4 - tablet docked in magnetic tray and keyboard flipped back 180 degrees
Position 5 - you can remove the tablet from the magnetic tray super easily, close the folio, then magnetically attach the tablet to the leather back of the folio. This protects the keyboard while also giving you something less slippery to hold on to while using the tablet as, well, a tablet.
I DO wish the keyboard had function keys like the Belkin keyboard I purchased for my wife's iPad. The Belkin's keys are smaller, but still work fine. I'd happy trade key size for more usable keys.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. How do you find the weight of the tablet with the folio keyboard? How bulky does it make the whole unit? I have read reports that the keyboard does add weight to the overall unit.
Also, did you buy direct from Google? I presume its not available offline? Reason I'm asking is I will be in the States in a few weeks for a few days, so would prefer to walk in to a store and buy it.
I do wish the tablet had a built in kickstand (like the Surfaces). In general I feel that Google missed a trick in its "productivity" implementation here. Seems both Michrosoft and Apple have better solutions in terms of linking keyboards up. Anyway, rant over.
I originally bought the Pixel keyboard. Was OK but I found having to seperate the tablet and keyboard and snap them together annoying every time I came to use it.
Final straw was when I ended up scratching the back of my Pixel C where the keyboard attaches. Must have been a small amount of grit or something and the process of attaching/removing caused a scratch.
Switched to the folio keyboard and loving it.
browngeek said:
Thanks. How do you find the weight of the tablet with the folio keyboard? How bulky does it make the whole unit? I have read reports that the keyboard does add weight to the overall unit.
Also, did you buy direct from Google? I presume its not available offline? Reason I'm asking is I will be in the States in a few weeks for a few days, so would prefer to walk in to a store and buy it.
I do wish the tablet had a built in kickstand (like the Surfaces). In general I feel that Google missed a trick in its "productivity" implementation here. Seems both Michrosoft and Apple have better solutions in terms of linking keyboards up. Anyway, rant over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The weight is fine. I wouldn't want to hold it up at shoulder level for hours on end, but it's far from heavy. It does add some thickness to the overall package, but in MY opinion, it makes it easier to carry around since it gives you more to hold on to. It basically turns the tablet into a very compact executive binder, just replace the normal yellow lined notepad with the pixel.
And yes, I purchased mine through Google. Order one, have it shipped to where you're staying, and if you don't like it, ship it right back before you leave.
It's not bad, I have one, but I only use it for travelling. At home I use a full Bluetooth keyboard that I got off of Amazon for $35. The Folio is extremely overpriced in my opinion.
Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk
redukt said:
I´m using this one for my devices. On amazon or other stores the prices are reduced. You can pair 2 devices at twice and the keyboard is really space saving.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you like it? Does it type well? Compared to a keyboard or a normal tablet keyboard?
bluestang said:
Yep, to me both keyboard solutions from Google are too expensive. Maybe one day I'll get one (and they discount it as well).
I ended up getting the ProCase Sleeve for the Pixel C and the MoKo Google Pixel C Case from Amazon. Both in black. I switch back and forth occasionally depending on what I'm doing. I'm really happy with both of them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you maybe have some photo's of it? Wondering if the above mentioned keyboard would fit in.
Mustaaa said:
How do you like it? Does it type well? Compared to a keyboard or a normal tablet keyboard?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Once used you´ll never missed it It types very well and paired your devices in a short time. The key pressures are balanced compared to a normal keyboard. For mailing / blogging / posting my favorite solution on our device Take a try even you can exchange it
redukt said:
Once used you´ll never missed it It types very well and paired your devices in a short time. The key pressures are balanced compared to a normal keyboard. For mailing / blogging / posting my favorite solution on our device Take a try even you can exchange it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm yeah, I completely forgot that I can return it in 2 weeks Think I'll order it from amazon.de , it's 75 there instead of the 100 at the miscrosoft site. I thought about getting the normal keyboard but for 160 it's too expensive for now and afraid of scratches after what I read about it
So, just wanted to update this thread. I decided not to purchase the keyboard or folio, just could not justify the cost.
In the end I opted for two solutions (basically to try out): a folio case and the microsoft foldable keyboard and a folio keyboard case. All three ordered from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Uni...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s03 (USD40)
http://www.amazon.com/Google-Pixel-...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 (USD11)
http://www.amazon.com/Google-Pixel-...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 (USD26)
So both set ups are are significantly cheaper than the USD150 cost if bought from Google.
Ironically, since purchasing from the States my laptop has needed to go in for repair, and I thought this would be a good opportunity to test out my new purchases so I could use the Pixel as a laptop replacement.
I've set the folio keyboard as the replacement and also connected a bluetooth mouse. Overall, pretty damn impressed with both the pixel and the keyboard (especially for the price). Now, lets not kid ourselves, I reckon the google folio keyboard would have been much much more better quality, but for the price that I paid for this folio, everything works generally fine.
Lets go through with the negatives first:
- Its chunky (but expect that would be the case with the official one as well)
- You can't just push the pixel into it like the official one (which benefits with the magnets)
- when it sits, because its held by velcro, the pixel pushes down a tiny bit, so it doesn't sit 100% in position, but doesn't really matter
- occasional connection issues with Bluetooth
- have to charge separately via micro usb (so no self charging)
- no trackpad (but don't think the official one has that as well)
- unlike my laptop, due to the size of the cables provided, I can't keep the unit charged all the time
but the positives
- did i mention the price?
- keys are pretty good and solid and clicky
- keyboard sits well
As for the other combo (microsoft keyboard and folio), this also works pretty well, have not tested it so much though, but can foresee using it when travelling. Its a bit of a pain to click into the folio, and a shame that it doesn't use magnetic strength of the pixel, but probably a cost issue.
Biggest issue with these third party solutions is that they don't make use of the pixel c's magnets and self charging, or at the very least usb c.
thing is, when I do get my laptop back, don't really know how much I would use the keyboard, unless when travelling.
Yes, I totally agree the official keyboard options are going to be much much better on every level, but still can't justify the price, unless I end up using a keyboard all the time.
I do have photos of the folio keyboard and will upload these later.
Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk
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Any of you guys selling your used OEM keyboard, perhaps you could post it on swappa's boneyard? I'd be willing to buy, any condition as long as it works. Lmk