I ran into this article today and I wanted to see what the people on XDA think about it. This company is working on a Android phone that it's primary purpose is to protect the users privacy.
Here's the link: http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/1/1...nn-silent-circle-geeksphone-blackphone-launch
Read the article, watch the video and let me know what you think.
Sent from GNote 3 rooted with kingo.
Saw news about this and came here to seek out does any1 have opinions about it.
i wonder, does the safety come from hardware or is it the OS what makes this so safe.. if it is the OS, i hope some1 smart enough makes custom rom for this.
I really don't see how this phone is gonna change anything. Apps and websites have keyloggers, You still need a carrier to get service from and they have control of all your traffic. What about radio frequencies that can be intercepted, IP addresses, GPS chips sending signals to satellites, baseband and firmware are connected thru the cell towers of the carrier. I'm starting to think this phone is a scam.
They said nothing about how they're dealing with all this. They are probably using the whole NSA scandal momentum to fool people into believing they are safe if they buy this phone.
Sent from GNote 3 rooted with kingo.
I saw an article about this venture also. This is a good thing. If he gets press about this phone, maybe other venders will take notice and start building in privacy features as well. :good:
I don't see the need for new hardware here. If they really want to secure something, they could create a mod for Android, that could be installed on a variety of devices for example.
Besides, if they encrypt telephony, messages and stuff, they will need to be decrypted again - but the question is where and how? I bet they won't have any hardware encryption module and even if they do, it will make communication with other phones impossible. Software encryption means other phones will need to install some additional software to communicate with the Blackphone and it might be a bit inconvenient.
orangek3nny said:
I don't see the need for new hardware here. If they really want to secure something, they could create a mod for Android, that could be installed on a variety of devices for example.
Besides, if they encrypt telephony, messages and stuff, they will need to be decrypted again - but the question is where and how? I bet they won't have any hardware encryption module and even if they do, it will make communication with other phones impossible. Software encryption means other phones will need to install some additional software to communicate with the Blackphone and it might be a bit inconvenient.
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Click to collapse
That's a good point. how a non blackphone device is gonna decipher the encryption? how is it going to get the key? How can a non blackphone device even a establish the same "secure" connection?
Sent from GNote 3 rooted with kingo.
Andronote3 said:
That's a good point. how a non blackphone device is gonna decipher the encryption? how is it going to get the key? How can a non blackphone device even a establish the same "secure" connection?
Sent from GNote 3 rooted with kingo.
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I think you are missing the point. As you or I may not NEED this kind of security, I'm sure you can think of someone who does.
Obviously, there would be two levels of privacy/security... Connections between 2 black phones and everything else. So who utilize a black phone? How about corporations and governments? Law offices, professional sports teams, or doctors and hospitals.
Now, even though I do not NEED this, if it was affordable, I would heavily consider it.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
JamieFL said:
I think you are missing the point. As you or I may not NEED this kind of security, I'm sure you can think of someone who does.
Obviously, there would be two levels of privacy/security... Connections between 2 black phones and everything else. So who utilize a black phone? How about corporations and governments? Law offices, professional sports teams, or doctors and hospitals.
Now, even though I do not NEED this, if it was affordable, I would heavily consider it.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Click to collapse
I understand what you are saying and I completely agree with you. It looks like a device that corporations and the government would "benefit" more than regular users. Either way, It won't fix 90% of all the problems people face when it comes to staying safe against privacy/security breaches. I truly believe that they are using the whole NSA scandal momentum to make people believe that they are safe/secured if they buy this phone.
P.S: Nice quotes.
I saw this phone.
It isn't an answer to every privacy issue.
What its an answer to is, not having to agree to an android apps permissions to gain access to the app.
These apps don't make their money off the app sales, they make their money sending information to retailers.
Retailers own the world.
The question I still pose is... What's wrong with retailers knowing where you are?
There's nothing you can do about the government. They won't let us make things that are government proof, nor would they (The retailers ) want to.
But, what's wrong with these apps fine tuning my specific desires to my Location?
You can't stop people from stealing your identity. The hacker/firewall paradox is, for every walk you build, they will build a taller ladder.
The only thing really close to full privacy in data sending is, that light source that sends data. It's a light bulb, and the light has data in it, a sensor receives it. It can be held within the walls of a room. But that only effects a closed circuit type system. If that light source is connected to the Internet, then game over.
Why do you think record companies and movie companies keep their computer systems offline and deal in only physical media? A hacker will get into anything I'd you give him the tools and time.
This phone gives a sense of security that is non existant
You've Just Been Tapatold ♧♢dbombROMv3.4♤♡
My Theme ( Taking Requests )
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2658527
SaintCity86 said:
I saw this phone.
It isn't an answer to every privacy issue.
What its an answer to is, not having to agree to an android apps permissions to gain access to the app.
These apps don't make their money off the app sales, they make their money sending information to retailers.
Retailers own the world.
The question I still pose is... What's wrong with retailers knowing where you are?
There's nothing you can do about the government. They won't let us make things that are government proof, nor would they (The retailers ) want to.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2658527
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Click to collapse
nailed it
The problem is Android itself. Thanks to Xprivacy, it's a lot easier to control what leaks out of your device. Personally I'd rather see more encryption mechanisms than this. FFOS seems to be on the right path
There Is nothing you can do to stop identity theft.
Nothing.
And there is nothing you can do to do the government from tapping your lines.
You want a safer form of communicating, send Voice recordings over text.
That's an entirety separate warrant, and harder to get. Other than that. It's hopeless
You've Just Been Tapatold ♧♢dbombROMv3.4♤♡
My Theme ( Taking Requests )
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d1rX said:
FFOS seems to be on the right path
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I think you mean FOSS[1] = Free and Open Source Software. Anyway, I fully agree, in fact, that is the ONLY way. Closed source encryption programs can't be 100% trusted by definition. There might be security flaws, intentional or not.
Anyway. the NSA has backdoors to every operating system[2], so if you're really a target, they get you. Also, there are more than enough security holes in the layers under the operating system[3].
I think what these phones are supposed to do is bring end-to-end encryption for e.g. industry users so they don't get spied on. The NSA and the US government can get their hands on encryption keys for servers like in Lavabits case[4]. But this is the transport encryption. The data is, if not otherwise secured, available in plain text on the servers of providers. This also means, the officials can decrypt ANY data that comes in, not just the one of actual targets.
Now, end-to-end encryption makes sure even the provider can't see your data in plain text because you encrypt and decrypt it on your device. What Blackphone does is, it uses the apps from Silent Circle, a closed source encryption programm for VoIP and messages. Although the owner of that company is the well trusted cryptographer Phil Zimmerman, one can never be sure.
That's a good point. how a non blackphone device is gonna decipher the encryption? how is it going to get the key? How can a non blackphone device even a establish the same "secure" connection?
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Click to collapse
You can install and use Silent Circle on any(ok, a lot of) phone(s). Just make sure you don't have additional malicious software installed. Any yes, it costs $100/year or so. And you get a subscription for SpiderOak, sort of a Dropbox but they encrypt the data before uploading. Any you get a better overview over what app uses what permissions. A few extra tweaks basically.
Alternative: Android Phone with CyanogenMod/Replica. TextSecure for messages, RedPhone for VoiP and owncloud for files. Way cheaper too, and open source, also made by well respected cryptographers like Moxie Marlinspike[5]
[1] de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free/Libre_Open_Source_Software
[2] zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-08/nsa-has-full-back-door-access-iphone-blackberry-and-android-smartphones-documents-re"]backdoors to every operating system
[3] forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2530044
[4] techdirt.com/articles/20131002/17443624734/lavabit-tried-giving-feds-its-ssl-key-11-pages-4-point-type-feds-complained-that-it-was-illegible.shtml
[5] thoughtcrime.org
if they want to spy on us they can ... that's it...
More info?
Hi all - looking for more info on this phone - just joined XDADev to post this.
Specifically, what brands might this hardware be found under? Know it's a Tinno S8515 but have yet to find out anything about that; seems like Tinno generally makes phones for other companies?
Any help is appreciated!
Best,
-Cx
:cyclops::cyclops::cyclops:
The greatest challenge to securing a phone is not the OS or the apps running on it, it's the baseband. We have known for well over 30+ yeasr how to harden a *nix based system (like AOS), but we haven't even started to question WTF is going on in the closed source 10-100 MB baseband RTOS, which have fulll access to your entire FS and the most important phone operations, like SIM, RF, EMMC etc etc.
Only forcing the corrupt modem OEM's to release the sources of the Baseband firmware could improve the situation. This will never happen, unless there is another baseband Snowden out there somewhere...
We already know that the BP/CP FW is extremely insecure, and relies almost solely on obscurity as their main mechanism of protection. If this was not the case, the iPhone unlock developers would have been fekked long time ago, and the rest of us would sit around with SIM/network locked bricks filling up our bookshelves.
Unfortunately the greatest majority of the millions of XDA members are completely carefree about this issue and are only happy as long as they can "tweak some ROMs". So this will never be the place to find/see any serious baseband reversing, no matter how important it would be from a security standpoint.
So to summarize, your Qualcomm baseband will continue to send your exact GPS coordinates to the network provider at will, without you ever knowing, and without anyone (here) caring. So goes for the FM transmitter that is part of the baseband FW in both Intel and Qualcomm based phones. Do you have control over that? Never.
Only a serious long term spectrum analysis study could reveal whats going on there, where and when you're not (able) to watch.
This phone is the biggest scam lol.
hyshys said:
Saw news about this and came here to seek out does any1 have opinions about it.
i wonder, does the safety come from hardware or is it the OS what makes this so safe.. if it is the OS, i hope some1 smart enough makes custom rom for this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was wondering this too. If it is only the rom (just like the $1300 pwnphone). It should be port-able
iliass01 said:
I was wondering this too. If it is only the rom (just like the $1300 pwnphone). It should be port-able
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Click to collapse
Blackphone. - no hardware security, just software, and most of it is NOT open source. Some here (@SaintCity86 , @repat) has their points, and they are mostly right! If you want some security (and I said some!!!), then get rid of most of your apps (permission check and some common sense), all Google apps (yes, all of them), install a paid (not free) and high quality VPN software, don't use the phone feature (only data sim-prepaid), get an internet phone number (with no personal details), use end to end encrypted apps to make calls and send and receive texts, install Xposed and Xprivacy (or any other variant) and limit even more the apps you have on your phone. Don't use it as your only phone, but as a secure device and share your number and other infos with trusted people! In this case, maybe, you will be able to add some layer of security and actually be able to use it. And most important, don't give your phone in the hands of anyone! It is a bit paranoid, but it's the only way! But, don't be fooled! You can have some security, only if you stay under the radar, and don't gain some attention. If yes, then you have no luck! Personally, I have seen the Blackphone, and tested it for some time, and I am not really convinced it can be trusted.
Good luck!
Andronote3 said:
I really don't see how this phone is gonna change anything. Apps and websites have keyloggers, You still need a carrier to get service from and they have control of all your traffic. What about radio frequencies that can be intercepted, IP addresses, GPS chips sending signals to satellites, baseband and firmware are connected thru the cell towers of the carrier. I'm starting to think this phone is a scam.
They said nothing about how they're dealing with all this. They are probably using the whole NSA scandal momentum to fool people into believing they are safe if they buy this phone.
Sent from GNote 3 rooted with kingo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would just like to correct this common misconception, GPS is one way.
GPS receivers as found in your phones, or navigation systems, receives GPS signals only. Nothing gets sent to satellites in this process, the algorithm is purely one way.
Related
I am concerned that Google has their tentacles all throughout the OS, and I want to take all measures to stop that. I particularly don't like their search query tracking (I use ixquick) and their nav app, as their privacy policies are atrocious.
Before someone accuses me of being a hacker or criminal, I am simply not willing to hand over my 220 year old Constitutional rights for a transient fear campaign manufactured by The Machine. And I do not want my information used for profit without permission. I used to be a cracker, and know what is possible. I'll not respond to those who call me 'paranoid'; they are oblivious.
Of course I'll not be using the apps of that-search-engine-everybody-uses. Removing them forthwith, in favor of whatever GPL open-source apps there are available for various functions. Using self-contained nav software like CoPilot or TomTom.
So, have any devs investigated whether Android phones home at any interval? Have measures been taken to privacy-enable the Android firmware?
I hear that HTC has some sort of 'phone home' function. How to neuter that?
What good is Wifi? Is it that you can use that when available, not using up 3G bytes? I am asking what use it is on a mobile in consideration of mobility and the security problems -- what uses can this be put to, and how to secure the phone?
Where is the best place to find open-source apps?
I'm curious about this as well, not so much from a privacy standpoint, but how the hell can I stop the mysterious data that is flowing out of my phone when everything like background syncing and all data connections are turned off.
http://source.android.com/
This is all you need - you could remove/modify anything you want, so... what's your problem? And actually Google apps aren't in the Android sources, so you won't have them after compiling. Yeah, two birds with one stone.
Also you could disable WiFi if you don't like it.
Tachikoma_kun said:
how the hell can I stop the mysterious data that is flowing out of my phone when everything like background syncing and all data connections are turned off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Errr... what ROM and how many apps do you have installed? There is no "mysterious data" on clean system, but 25% of apps use data connection for various reasons.
I'm on the stock 2.1 ROM for the Samsung Galaxy S. I turn all the background syncing, email, and stuff like that off, and overnight it can use about 1MB of data.
I don't have any "free" apps running that might download new banners or anything like that.
The background syncing does not turn anything off as far as I know.
To my knowledge it allows 3rd party apps the ability to check if the user has flagged this, but they do not have to respect this flag.
Tachikoma_kun said:
I'm on the stock 2.1 ROM for the Samsung Galaxy S. I turn all the background syncing, email, and stuff like that off, and overnight it can use about 1MB of data.
I don't have any "free" apps running that might download new banners or anything like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Syncing is just... syncing. But there are many other things, that apps do. Spare Parts -> Battery history -> Network usage.
Brut.all said:
http://source.android.com/
This is all you need - you could remove/modify anything you want, so... what's your problem?
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What's my problem, LOL? I am a 52yo real estate developer, not a coder. This is why I'm asking the question.
Quantumstate said:
What's my problem, LOL? I am a 52yo real estate developer, not a coder. This is why I'm asking the question.
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i think he meant either put up or shut up, which is a pretty reasonable statement.
IMO it's anonymous user data.... let them build cybernet
otherwise say no to the T.O.S that is your constitutional right if you have "privacy" concerns
Brut.all said:
Syncing is just... syncing. But there are many other things, that apps do. Spare Parts -> Battery history -> Network usage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, will give that a try.
themapleboy said:
i think he meant either put up or shut up, which is a pretty reasonable statement.
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Click to collapse
I meant we all have access to the sources, so we don't have to "investigate" what Android exactly does - we just know, that it doesn't do any "mysterious" things. There are many people working with these sources for many months, I doubt there are some undiscovered things.
Brut.all said:
I meant we all have access to the sources, so we don't have to "investigate" what Android exactly does - we just know, that it doesn't do any "mysterious" things. There are many people working with these sources for many months, I doubt there are some undiscovered things.
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Click to collapse
u know what they say about assuming...... it always makes you look like a jackass
Yeah, I mean we're not playing with iOS4 or anything.
In all seriousness, Android's been out for quite a while now and has been looked at by a LOT of people. Not saying that it's *impossible* but it's highly unlikely that anything nefarious is going on.
If you're still concerned, I suppose you could always opt not to install the Google Apps, but you'd be a bit limited, functionality-wise.
Sent from my Droid using XDA App
themapleboy said:
let them build cybernet
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Click to collapse
O' little do you know... many years ago I did work in Eastern Europe. You have no idea the paranoia a society can endure. For an idea, watch the old TV series Danger Man. Or the movie 1984.
If most young people share your view, it is a dark future. I'm glad I'll be dead.
herald83 said:
In all seriousness, Android's been out for quite a while now and has been looked at by a LOT of people. Not saying that it's *impossible* but it's highly unlikely that anything nefarious is going on.
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Understand. I just can not believe though that Google is not harvesting some sort of information, as that's their business model. They never discard any info they receive, and you can build a shockingly accurate portrait of someone from their searches over time. Google's CEO recently said, "If You Have Something You Don't Want Anyone To Know, Maybe You Shouldn't Be Doing It", echoing the Bush Doctrine of a Police State.
Maybe Android is innocuous for now, and I'm sure it's been examined. But I'm wondering what the results were? Why are ppl seeing data outflows?
I smell a rat...
Quantumstate said:
...Before someone accuses me of being a hacker or criminal, I am simply not willing to hand over my 220 year old Constitutional rights for a transient fear campaign manufactured by The Machine. And I do not want my information used for profit without permission. I used to be a cracker, and know what is possible. I'll not respond to those who call me 'paranoid'; they are oblivious...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quantumstate said:
What's my problem, LOL? I am a 52yo real estate developer, not a coder. This is why I'm asking the question.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A 52yo real estate developer, whose not a coder, but used to be a "cracker" and knows what is possible? Anyone else here think this doesn't make a bit of sense?
It's funny, but it sounds like someone is trying to stir up some FUD by making claims that Android is somehow doing an "All your data are belong to us...". I hope Apple aren't paying your cheques!
@perpetualmotionuk: Be advised that there is a difference between mathematics and decryption, and coding. Yes I can do some coding, but not at a level necessary to analyze and modify an operating system.
If Apple were paying my 'cheques', wouldn't I come in with some sort of proof that monitoring is taking place? Rather than asking what others have found?
Now, rather than trying to tear people down, why don't you use that considerable nose to investigate this yourself?
No one's seen anything about info leakage?
Quantumstate said:
Understand. I just can not believe though that Google is not harvesting some sort of information, as that's their business model. They never discard any info they receive, and you can build a shockingly accurate portrait of someone from their searches over time. Google's CEO recently said, "If You Have Something You Don't Want Anyone To Know, Maybe You Shouldn't Be Doing It", echoing the Bush Doctrine of a Police State.
Maybe Android is innocuous for now, and I'm sure it's been examined. But I'm wondering what the results were? Why are ppl seeing data outflows?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of that data is pulled from search history, I suspect. Which you can disable, if I recall. Don't have my phone on me at the moment to confirm.
I just did a very simple test on an emulator: after ~15 minutes of running system there was 0 (zero, null) of network packets. Now I want to do the same on a device with clean system, but I think results will be the same or similar (SDK system is just normal Android - very similar to these from devices).
I have a feeling that even if I will catch zero packets as well, you will be asking whether Google send something mysterious through... errr... bluetooth? Some hidden antenna?
If you're worried about Google tracking your info...root the phone and don't install the Google apps. What do ya know...problem solved.
If you're still worried that people are tracking what you are doing see steps below.
1) Flush phone or give to a homeless guy to throw them off.
2) Destroy Computers.
3) Liquidate everything you own.
4) Walk into the woods and live off the land.
5) Kill self shortly after because they already have a file on you.
You say you're a 52 year old real estate developer...guess what...they're already tracking you. You're already helping to build "cybernet" just by living and breathing.
And if you are really worried about your "220 year old Constitutional Rights" then go read the Patriot Act and discover that you don't have ****.
I'm normally not one to flame...but you are an absolute idiot.
I'm not an English person, excuse for the syntax/grammar/... mistakes I'd could make.
hedjemunkee said:
I'm normally not one to flame...but you are an absolute idiot.
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I don't understand WHY this person could be considered as "an absolute idiot" by ASKING if some 'data' are sent over the network through the phone.
Facebook, with it's ad system is sending information for each ad displayed (not alot, but still some !)....
ADS.GOOGLE do you have any idea about what's behind !?
I don't have the number (nobody have it) of webpages using it but it's huge. with this you can track navigation of people, establish profiles, link to a physical person. Without your consent.
I understand the concern of the "OP" here. I don't think the data sent are easy to "catch", or are systematically sent... maybe there is no, and you are paranoid. But it "COULD". So easily. I'm from the young tech generation.
And to quote
Quantumstate said:
If most young people share your view, it is a dark future. I'm glad I'll be dead.
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Click to collapse
People who don't ask themselve the question, or wich refuse to be open minded enough to consider the right to ask this question ... could be surprised very soon. I'm not directly affraid of "google". I'm affraid of those 'blind' people.
You'll be dead in less than 10years !? I hope we can share some of the darkness you're talking about. your parent's generation started it, you continued it.
Anyway, back to the topic.
Why in my pocess list i've : (app id number) com.ap.SnapPhoto:remote
even when I do not use the camera !?
...when I notice my battery is being used more than usual I check the process list and I find this...
What's this "remote" !?
Maybe "remote" refers to "another app wich launch this app"... ? Otherwise... wow.
If you are going to use your phone for payments - which NFC payments is soon coming to UK in the next year and I'm sure other countries will follow - will you use other ROMs than what's on your phone when you bought it?
I prefer a beeter rom than nfc payments , for me phone is not a credit card
Nope, but I don't like the idea of using a phone to make payments anyway.
No
I wouldn't use the phone as a payment method, to me its just asking for trouble. Even if you were to use a stock ROM there's always a chance of people gaining aces through apps.
as i understand, payments will be limited to 10GBP at a time, so that may translate to $10 etc. Useful for travel cards too.
And no, I don't think apps would be able to get access at all - though, it's always up to you as the user to check the permissions the app asks for.
Of course apps will be able to access it. It's software (The NFC), and software is very dynamic. Any sort of software can be changed (via other software, which we classify as malware) to be unsafe.
Kailkti said:
Of course apps will be able to access it. It's software (The NFC), and software is very dynamic. Any sort of software can be changed (via other software, which we classify as malware) to be unsafe.
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Click to collapse
Well, actually, the NFC is hardware
And as the SIM Card is set to be used in the payment process, I'd imagine control would be tied down.
i dont like the idea of phones making payments either, more reason to worry and track unauthorized spending.
It seems I didn't really bring my point across clearly. Of course you know that hardware without software is junk right? What operates the hardware is the software, of course you know also. So what I'm saying is, any app, which is software, and may be malware, can affect the software managing the NFC. So in any case, it's not safe since android is so open. iOS/WP7 puts the NFC in a more ideal context.
Of course apps will be able to access it
Kailkti said:
It seems I didn't really bring my point across clearly. Of course you know that hardware without software is junk right? What operates the hardware is the software, of course you know also. So what I'm saying is, any app, which is software, and may be malware, can affect the software managing the NFC. So in any case, it's not safe since android is so open. iOS/WP7 puts the NFC in a more ideal context.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As to that last part... thats the old debate of security by obscurity there. I'm willing to bet its not so clear cut and I'd lean more towards an open platform myself.
At any rate, I'm uncomfortable about using my phone as a payment method as well but to humor the thread I'd say...depends on the rom. I'd use a custom rom as long as the community vouches for it.
Using Nefarious Fiat Currency worries me. I don't Think that I am going to opt-in to that service until I have too. Cash is King
Meh, it's a good concept although it doesn't take me longer than 4 seconds to get a credit card out to pay for whatever I'm buying; just because I have my phone in the opposite pocket doesn't give me a reason to use that.
I'm still going to have to carry a wallet around with me, the phone isn't really cutting anything down in terms of what I have to carry around with me.
On top of that, there's a higher chance of my phone being lost or stolen because i take that out of my pocket, put it down, and it could slip out of my pocket depending on what pants I'm wearing.
I don't think I'll ever use NFC. That is, until I can embed my driver's licence in my phone (which is the main reason why I carry a wallet).
I didn't even bother setting up a google account or the majority of Gapps (other than maps) so you already know how I feel about this subject.
naomispoon said:
I wouldn't use the phone as a payment method, to me its just asking for trouble. Even if you were to use a stock ROM there's always a chance of people gaining aces through apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you think about SQUARE credit card mag stripe reader accessory -- and their new payment network. From twitter founder Jack Dorsey, he intends it to be the next payment network.
i would never consider making payments with my phone, unless theres a slot somewhere where i can punch in my card number ... on the long run, to impose that as a reason for not alowing custom roms would be unreasonable, as its not really necesary to use THE PHONE to DIRECTLY buy stuff with it. after that,imo, iOS stands for one thing, wp7 for another, and android for nothing similar to them, or much more ( innovation wise ) than the other 2 os's.
I will never use my phone to pay for something.
Sent from my Incredible with the XDA Premium App.
Few days ago I was involved in a conversation where couple of people were sure that the government can tap our phones even when not in conversation but when they are actually in stand by on the table.
I tried to argue that when in stand by, android for example has very minimal processes going on, just enough to keep the time and realize when the power button is pressed or send notification.
The counter-argument was that there might be backdoors in the ROM for example which enables the authorities to get sound from the mic directly without the need of the OS as an interface.
I don't see how this can be done, but you as developers might want to provide some solid, technical arguments which would set the discussion once at for all
I guess if you're really that worried about it, there's always airplane mode.
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium
Worried about monitoring using a google/facebook/twitter device?
Pull some foil off your hat, and wrap it around the phone. Problem solved.
Just do what Eric says "Do no Evil" and who cares if the gummint is watching you!
I'm not worried at all as should be obvious if you actually read my post :>
Fking1 said:
I don't see how this can be done, but you as developers might want to provide some solid, technical arguments which would set the discussion once at for all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I'm no developer but if you are going to lurk deeper on backdoors, you'll soon find out that bigger corporations than Gooogle have implemented backdoors in their systems.
Still, this doesn't tell you how it's done, but proofs that has been done and afaics is no problem to do it again.
If I remember correctly some time ago Indian government tried to force BlackBerry to backdoor their devices for Indian market.
So judge it for yourself, but don't think that this is some Atlantis conspiracy but is actually happening all over the place..
B33zal said:
Well, I'm no developer but if you are going to lurk deeper on backdoors, you'll soon find out that bigger corporations than Gooogle have implemented backdoors in their systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Care to elaborate?
Also it will be enough if someone says why it's impossible to pull audio from the mic when the phone is on standby
In all actuality if the gumment wanted to monitor you they already are....
Fking1 said:
Care to elaborate?
Also it will be enough if someone says why it's impossible to pull audio from the mic when the phone is on standby
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not impossible. Don't brick your head with such things. And why is that question anyway? Do you affraid that you can get caught?
If you are not doin anything against the law, after a while they would not even listen to you
chaki- said:
It's not impossible. Don't brick your head with such things. And why is that question anyway? Do you affraid that you can get caught?
If you are not doin anything against the law, after a while they would not even listen to you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well to be honest, i'm big time criminal in my country, so the answer to that question is critical to me :>
Fking1 said:
I tried to argue that when in stand by, android for example has very minimal processes going on, just enough to keep the time and realize when the power button is pressed or send notification.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because a listening device is not always on doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A single push notification can activate a hidden app or feature, should a government have installed it.
Indeed, there are "lost phone" apps on the market that let you do similar things (though I'm not sure about listening in per se, more like gps, alarm sound, take photos).
so, it's technically possible?
Fking1 said:
so, it's technically possible?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is possible and google patented an ad technique that involved using the microphone to listen for background noises and words to produce better more personalised ad results but haven't implemented it yet.
Also you can remotely activate phone features as well as push data to a phone so yes it could be done but they would need at least an app installed on your phone to do so.
So unless you allow someone to install hidden apps on your phone there's no chance of it.
Dave
( http://www.google.com/producer/editions/CAownKXmAQ/bigfatuniverse )
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk 2
Interesting.
What if the government forces Google, Apple and Rim to leave such backdoors accessible by them?
Android is open source but the kernel is not as far as i know?
Fking1 said:
Interesting.
What if the government forces Google, Apple and Rim to leave such backdoors accessible by them?
Android is open source but the kernel is not as far as i know?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
even if thats the case: just flash an own kernel like we all do.
i don't think there's something in android, because it's open source. someone would see that..
and the kernel problem is solved when you flash another one i guess
but those normal ppl out there.. the weird ones who doesn't flash their devices, they are ****ed then. xP
but are the kernels we flash open source? I guess even with custom ROM you use the default google kernel, since if it haven't been open source in the first place, i don't think anyone has written it from scratch.
The more important question is, can something like this be hidden in the kernel, or it needs to run in the OS as normal, but hidden app?
Fking1 said:
Care to elaborate?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NSAKEY. I'd post links but I can't.
B33zal said:
NSAKEY. I'd post links but I can't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NSAKEY?
post them sripped or PM me
Is it possible? Yes is it likely? No. At least in the US they would need to prove you were a threat to national security to get a judge to sign off on it.
The android kernel is open source completely.
As an example there is a root binary that grants root access without user prompt or notification of any kind. So while it can be done I would not worry about it much.
FEMA chip anyone?
Sent for a corner cell in Arkham
dmhdogpro said:
In all actuality if the gumment wanted to monitor you they already are....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bingo
I do not worry about my Government, if they want me they
will come and get me (and I won't be able to stop them)
It is my fellow citizens whom scare me the most.
B33zal said:
Well, I'm no developer but if you are going to lurk deeper on backdoors, you'll soon find out that bigger corporations than Gooogle have implemented backdoors in their systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is true and some EULAs even suggest that there is no privacy on the data commited to the systems. Simple software we use daily (specially in the MS Windows world) is gathering info about what data you search, what you download, what kinda documents you type, etc. Even cloud storage services have a EULA that guarantee you no privacy (Box, Dropbox, Google drive, etc)
As for Android, I highly doubt the problem lies in the operating system, since it is open source and anyone can take a look at it.
Now if you want a conspiracy theory, then read on...
Have you guys noticed how many of the browsers in Play Store are from chinese developers? Specially Dolphin, which many of you adore. Who can tell it isn't secretly sending your browsing habits to the Chinese government? How many people have been sniffing traffic to/from Dolphin (using tcpdump, for instance) to make sure it isn't doing other things?
Chrome (and Chromium) is another example: most people simply have to access their google accounts from these browsers. These browsers effectively send private user data to google. The question here is: how is google making use of such data and who is it sharing it with (for a profit or not)???
It's almost a paradox that in the information age we are more and more willing to have privacy but we have never shared so much of their personal lives with so many as we do now. Take, for instance, Facebook, Google+, Twitter,
I could go on and on... but I gotta some wifi sniffing to do right now and some wardriving later.
Hey people reading this! So this is the deal I live in spain and my school is discussing make mobile phones such as android and blackberry allowed in teh school. But there´s a problem in Spain there´s a law that says you aren´t allowed to take a picture of somebody and upload it to internet without there permission. yes dumb I know but that´s the law and the school doesn´t want the students to get int trouble nor do they want to get into legal twists and so on. So my question is there a possibility to develop an app that uses the camera minimal usage like using no intake of light = black. So other apps can´t access the sue of the camera. And have it sync with the schools servers with the latest calender and so on. But the twist is is it possible without root access. I´m not very experienced in the android field but I would appreciate some heads up on this. My head tells me it would be possible on black berry android but not ios.
Thankyou for all your answers in advance, and also thankyou for you taking your time to read this.:good:
Simple no tech answer. Tape a small piece of paper over the lense ,
-------------
I am a dishonest man, and you can always honestly trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly it's the honest ones you have to watch out for.
I don´t think you understand
xMrArnoldx said:
Simple no tech answer. Tape a small piece of paper over the lense ,
-------------
I am a dishonest man, and you can always honestly trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly it's the honest ones you have to watch out for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How it would be useful is cause the networks proxy server would send a push notification that autostarts the app and drops the connection to the device if the app was exited/terminated by the user. I know it´s possible to do it the question is, is it possible to do it without root accsess. That´s how schoool keep themselves out of trouble cause you wouldn´t be allowed to use your phone without being connected to the network. There will also be distruptors set around the school so no tele signals can be used which essentially kills of the problem with calls and SMS. Thankyou for your answer anyways tho
laxan96 said:
How it would be useful is cause the networks proxy server would send a push notification that autostarts the app and drops the connection to the device if the app was exited/terminated by the user. I know it´s possible to do it the question is, is it possible to do it without root accsess. That´s how schoool keep themselves out of trouble cause you wouldn´t be allowed to use your phone without being connected to the network. There will also be distruptors set around the school so no tele signals can be used which essentially kills of the problem with calls and SMS. Thankyou for your answer anyways tho
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are some problems with this logic:
1.) The connection to the device will most likely be a wi-fi connection, therefore killing that connection will not stop someone from uploading a picture using the mobile network
2.) You are talking about the school setting up cell disruptors around the campus. You might want to check whether this is legal with the laws in your country, as here in the US it is a felony to tamper with the cell networks using any sort of cell network disruptor.
3.) Since the camera can be used without a network, what is to stop someone from taking a picture of someone, then going home to upload it?
Now, to answer your questions, we would need more information. Are these devices being provided by the school, or are they BYOD (students bring their own devices)? If they are provided by the school, you can create a custom rom that does not have any assets for the camera, therefore any camera app would be forced to close, as they can't access the resources it needs. This would require root access. If it is BYOD, you face a much larger issue as forcing students to install an app that could potentially alter data on their devices might be in conflict with privacy laws in place in your country. Again, you would have to conduct more research into the legal issues that are brought up.
syung said:
There are some problems with this logic:
1.) The connection to the device will most likely be a wi-fi connection, therefore killing that connection will not stop someone from uploading a picture using the mobile network
2.) You are talking about the school setting up cell disruptors around the campus. You might want to check whether this is legal with the laws in your country, as here in the US it is a felony to tamper with the cell networks using any sort of cell network disruptor.
3.) Since the camera can be used without a network, what is to stop someone from taking a picture of someone, then going home to upload it?
Now, to answer your questions, we would need more information. Are these devices being provided by the school, or are they BYOD (students bring their own devices)? If they are provided by the school, you can create a custom rom that does not have any assets for the camera, therefore any camera app would be forced to close, as they can't access the resources it needs. This would require root access. If it is BYOD, you face a much larger issue as forcing students to install an app that could potentially alter data on their devices might be in conflict with privacy laws in place in your country. Again, you would have to conduct more research into the legal issues that are brought up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh it is legal there and may be come legal here if things don't change soon. That same law will becoming to us soon don't doubt it. With the privacy concerns coming up we will see this sooner or later.
No to answer the OP. No you won't be able to do this without root. There are some companies that sell devices without cameras just for this purpose as alot of business don't allow camera phones in the building. That maybe you other option.
Wayne Tech Nexus
zelendel said:
Oh it is legal there and may be come legal here if things don't change soon. That same law will becoming to us soon don't doubt it. With the privacy concerns coming up we will see this sooner or later.
No to answer the OP. No you won't be able to do this without root. There are some companies that sell devices without cameras just for this purpose as alot of business don't allow camera phones in the building. That maybe you other option.
Wayne Tech Nexus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you referring to the use of cell disruptors? I highly doubt that this would ever become legal in the states, as the potential for abuse is too great. There is also other concerns that these can be used against law enforcement to block their communication, which could be bad during instances of conducting a search warrant, or to block emergency communication, which is why the use of cell disruptors is prohibited by the FCC in the first place.
syung said:
Are you referring to the use of cell disruptors? I highly doubt that this would ever become legal in the states, as the potential for abuse is too great. There is also other concerns that these can be used against law enforcement to block their communication, which could be bad during instances of conducting a search warrant, or to block emergency communication, which is why the use of cell disruptors is prohibited by the FCC in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We will see. I already keep 2 one in my car and one in my kids car. Activated when the car starts. If they do become legal completely I am sure that law enforcement will have other means.
Wayne Tech Nexus
Answering your questions
syung said:
There are some problems with this logic:
1.) The connection to the device will most likely be a wi-fi connection, therefore killing that connection will not stop someone from uploading a picture using the mobile network
2.) You are talking about the school setting up cell disruptors around the campus. You might want to check whether this is legal with the laws in your country, as here in the US it is a felony to tamper with the cell networks using any sort of cell network disruptor.
3.) Since the camera can be used without a network, what is to stop someone from taking a picture of someone, then going home to upload it?
Now, to answer your questions, we would need more information. Are these devices being provided by the school, or are they BYOD (students bring their own devices)? If they are provided by the school, you can create a custom rom that does not have any assets for the camera, therefore any camera app would be forced to close, as they can't access the resources it needs. This would require root access. If it is BYOD, you face a much larger issue as forcing students to install an app that could potentially alter data on their devices might be in conflict with privacy laws in place in your country. Again, you would have to conduct more research into the legal issues that are brought up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
zelendel said:
Oh it is legal there and may be come legal here if things don't change soon. That same law will becoming to us soon don't doubt it. With the privacy concerns coming up we will see this sooner or later.
No to answer the OP. No you won't be able to do this without root. There are some companies that sell devices without cameras just for this purpose as alot of business don't allow camera phones in the building. That maybe you other option.
Wayne Tech Nexus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To answer you question yes this is a BYOD type of deal and how the school are going to keep themselves out of trouble, is that you aren´t allowed to use a cell phone without being connected to the network. The cell disruptors are legal and the privacy concerns are also green since there is ofc going to be a terms & conditions agreement to accept or decline the first time you open up the application. Ina ll honesty the school just wanna cover there asses so they don´t have problems in the future. So it´s not there problem anymore if someone kills the app and the phone disconnects from the network and they take a picture. Most people don´t use an autostart manager so it won´t be a huge problem either.
Now you say that it isn´t possible to do this without root access then we got an issue that isn´t solvable. Or is it just to complicated to develop? From what i understand they have the resources to do it if it´s possible.
Why I got involved in all this was cause I had kinda the same ideas and I was talking to one of the teachers and he told me that the principal teacher had similar ideas. So I went and talked to him, my thought process were let´s put our ideas together. Then he told me about this issue. And finally why I´m asking you all this is cause I don´t have any experience in programming alltho I do have a lot of experience with both computers and cell phones.
Thankx yet again for all your replies so far I appreciate it a lot!
So loving my note 3. I haven't rooted it yet or anything. As I want to see how the stock rom is for a month or so.
Something has been bugging me ever since I have started caring about my privacy and security. as every App I want to install wants to read my call log, control SMS's record conversations ect. when the app doesn't need to. for instance my favorite radio station. Thinks it needs the permission to know who I've called! What the hell for?
It's the reason I've begin to fall in love with Paranoid android ROM. I had it on my note 2. granted I couldn't use the S-pen at all as it didn't use touchwiz. but I found the ability to edit each apps security settings. worth the sacrifice!. (if anyone reads this. is there a way to put that into any ROM? the permissions editor?) I'd love to install it. but onto the pressing issue.
Samsung includes this magical service with the note 3 called Knox. now it's supposed to give you enterprise security.
When all it does. is constantly give me notifications that it's stopped certain programs from running.
when this morning I clicked the right button which too me to the permissions that Knox gets here they are
read phone status and identity
read, edit SMS's
full network access, ability to change network conns
retrieve running apps
prevent phone from sleeping
directly call phone numbers
Take pictures and video
Record audio
approximate location. Pinpoint location
Modify call contacts. read call log
add read or modify calendar events
read all web history, bookmarks ect
Modify or delete usb storage
Disable screen security
complete account control
Read dictionary terms
pair with any bluetooth
there is also lots of other non essential stuff. This is Freaking Alarming at the minimum. if no one is worried about this then its very sad! This screams NSA back door!
jjbk said:
This is Freaking Alarming at the minimum. if no one is worried about this then its very sad! This screams NSA back door!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know a couple of CIO's that are wetting themselves over KNOX and they (and the DOD, CIA, and NSA for internal use) are the primary audiences. I'd like to assume that people in charge of protecting corporate data are smart enough to investigate the tools they are using to do that pretty thoroughly. My assumption is that the boatload of permissions KNOX requires are all tied to administering, monitoring, protecting, archiving, and deleting data off of devices being policed with MDM. Based on Huawei and Lenovo being cut out of acquisition opportunities and lucrative Western networking contracts because of their ties to the Chinese and "spying" I'd say the quickest way for Samsung to put themselves out of business and take Korea with them is to do what you're suggesting.
The KNOX is truly crap!
I had disable all KNOX after ROOT.
Samsung doing this KNOX thingy is full to crap! extremely useless!
jjbk said:
It's the reason I've begin to fall in love with Paranoid android ROM. I had it on my note 2. granted I couldn't use the S-pen at all as it didn't use touchwiz. but I found the ability to edit each apps security settings. worth the sacrifice!. (if anyone reads this. is there a way to put that into any ROM? the permissions editor?) I'd love to install it. but onto the pressing issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can do this now with an unrooted Note 3. It's a sort of hidden feature of Android 4.3, but you just need access to an 'activity' called App Ops. There is a handy app in the Play store that creates this link for you:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appaholics.applauncher
Knox is also a device administrator and to work correctly it needs pretty much all permissions.
That's normal.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
jeromepearce said:
You can do this now with an unrooted Note 3. It's a sort of hidden feature of Android 4.3, but you just need access to an 'activity' called App Ops. There is a handy app in the Play store that creates this link for you:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appaholics.applauncher
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. I got it. and started using it can't wait till paranoid brings out a good ROM. or something with full S pen funtionality. and then just install this on Thanks Once again
All this knox talk is funny. What are you really scared of?
NSA? No problem unless you're trying to hide something you should not be doing. If they want to see my search history or see my pics and read my emails, then go for it.
I just simply rooted and removed Knox, lots written about it - the secret agenda is nonsense.
jjbk said:
here is also lots of other non essential stuff. This is Freaking Alarming at the minimum. if no one is worried about this then its very sad! This screams NSA back door!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course Knox needs all these permissions - it is, essentially, a virtualised phone OS within a real phone OS.
Without those permissions, it simply wouldn't work!
Regards,
Dave
There is always this conspiracy theory :laugh:
Ppl need to cool down and chill.
foxmeister said:
Of course Knox needs all these permissions - it is, essentially, a virtualised phone OS within a real phone OS.
Without those permissions, it simply wouldn't work!
Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no question KNOX is a nightmare for enthusiasts. But enthusiasts make up 5% of the market. XDA being the biggest enthusiast site on the web has 5M members; Samsung will sell 250M smart devices this year. The corporate market is probably 25-30% of annual smartphone sales. That's who KNOX is for and so far it's been extremely well received. I know of one company that's issued a mandate that all employees must use Samsung phones equipped with KNOX whether supplied by the company or via BYOD. If that happens enough Samsung's hit a home run with KNOX even if all 5M XDA members buy other phones. KNOX has been so successful LG's doing something similar.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/01/lg-gate-enterprise-security/
So ladies and gentlemen, KNOX and its ilk are here to stay.
weedahoe said:
All this knox talk is funny. What are you really scared of?
NSA? No problem unless you're trying to hide something you should not be doing. If they want to see my search history or see my pics and read my emails, then go for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your mentality sucks. Surely i can expect some kind of privacy on a personal device. Wether im doing something i shouldnt be or not.
BarryH_GEG - is completely right its aimed at Corp users and its very useful. - those that slag it off has no idea what it is and what its used for.
KNOX - is Samsung's version SELinux, since its now standard in Linux Kernel, all variations of Linux will have this feature and Andriod is an variation of Linux.
So if you dont like SELinux you better switch from Andriod smartphones as this will be standard soon no matter which OEM you choose.
weedahoe said:
All this knox talk is funny. What are you really scared of?
NSA? No problem unless you're trying to hide something you should not be doing. If they want to see my search history or see my pics and read my emails, then go for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Putting KNOX aside, I want to understand your perspective on privacy.
Here's my perspective:
I have nothing to hide nor am I working in politics.
But with this backdoor technology, it IS a serious concern for journalists and honest politicians running against the current corrupted elite establishment.
Who (in the sex obsessed American public eye) will take their cause seriously after the establishment (with the help of NSA DB) releases a phone-sex tape or pictures of drunken high school pics?
In 2008, NSA workers told ABC News that they routinely eavesdropped on phone sex between troops serving overseas and their loved ones in America.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who's to be the honest watchdog of the establishment if all journalists can be blackmailed with their personal info before they release their reports of establishment corruption?
This is not about something to HIDE.
It's about freedom and democracy.
Do you want your children to inherent a world where they can MAKE A DIFFERENCE or one where THEY CAN NOT??
You do know that Samsung is a Korean company - and a strongly nationalist one to the extent of a General Electric or. General Motors - right?
perosredo said:
You do know that Samsung is a Korean company - and a strongly nationalist one to the extent of a General Electric or. General Motors - right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What does that have to do with whether it will comply with the laws in the country it wants to do business in?
Google a US COMPANY had to comply and censor results in many countries at the request of the foreign gov.
Twitter had to censor the posts of Arab Spring supporters at the request of their govs
BlackBerry a CANADIAN COMPANY had been pressured into releasing encryption keys to the Indian gov to spy on comms.
Samsung wants to do business in your country, does it not?
weedahoe said:
All this knox talk is funny. What are you really scared of?
NSA? No problem unless you're trying to hide something you should not be doing. If they want to see my search history or see my pics and read my emails, then go for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed........... I deliberately take regular photos of my untrimmed white bits just for them.... :laugh:
jonlewi5 said:
Your mentality sucks. Surely i can expect some kind of privacy on a personal device. Wether im doing something i shouldnt be or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You better get off the internet now and any social site you might have ever been on. Lots of engines index everything you put out there so even though you think you delete it, its still there......somewhere
klau1 said:
I want to understand your perspective on privacy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone here's perspective on privacy really doesn't belong on XDA. It's one thing to talk about the impact of KNOX on device development, how to use (or not use) its functionality, and what its impact is to privacy and another to have general privacy discussions that belong on Reddit.
OP's question was asked and answered. KNOX's sweeping permissions are required for it to function. If people feel that KNOX could impact their privacy disable it or send Samsung a message by not buying their products. Just like Samsung's reaction to the negative coverage of Region Lock was to ignore it you can pretty much assume that'll be their position on KNOX too. I use KNOX so if there's some sort of nefarious activity it performs or my data gets compromised I'll report back. That's assuming I'm not captured by the CIA and renditioned to a foreign country and water boarded.
klau1 said:
But with this backdoor technology, it IS a serious concern for journalists and honest politicians running against the current corrupted elite establishment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What backdoor technology? KNOX?
Unless you are running your own version of a mobile OS, compiled from source and having reviewed all the code to remove any backdoors, you are potentially vulnerable to all sorts of backdoors that Google, Samsung, HTC, Microsoft, Apple, or any other company may have inserted the ROM build you are running. KNOX changes none of this.
Privacy is an illusion, and always has been!
Regards,
Dave