Database Info

Official statement from Google regarding the Cyanogen controvery

I have no idea where this needs to be posted. There are a number of different threads regarding this topic, and I know at least one of them are locked. So mods, feel free to move, delete or merge this as you see fit.
Google, via the Android Developers Blog, issued a statement a short while back. Here it is ...
A Note on Google Apps for Android
Posted by Dan Morrill on 25 September 2009 at 2:31 PM
Lately we've been busy bees in Mountain View, as you can see from the recent release of Android 1.6 to the open-source tree, not to mention some devices we're working on with partners that we think you'll really like. Of course, the community isn't sitting around either, and we've been seeing some really cool and impressive things, such as the custom Android builds that are popular with many enthusiasts. Recently there's been some discussion about an exchange we had with the developer of one of those builds, and I've noticed some confusion around what is and isn't part of Android's open source code. I want to take a few moments to clear up some of those misconceptions, and explain how Google's apps for Android fit in.
Everyone knows that mobile is a big deal, but for a long time it was hard to be a mobile app developer. Competing interests and the slow pace of platform innovation made it hard to create innovative apps. For our part, Google offers a lot of services — such as Google Search, Google Maps, and so on — and we found delivering those services to users' phones to be a very frustrating experience. But we also found that we weren't alone, so we formed the Open Handset Alliance, a group of like-minded partners, and created Android to be the platform that we all wished we had. To encourage broad adoption, we arranged for Android to be open-source. Google also created and operates Android Market as a service for developers to distribute their apps to Android users. In other words, we created Android because the industry needed an injection of openness. Today, we're thrilled to see all the enthusiasm that developers, users, and others in the mobile industry have shown toward Android.
With a high-quality open platform in hand, we then returned to our goal of making our services available on users' phones. That's why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google's way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren't open source, and that's why they aren't included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it's done with the best of intentions.
I hope that clears up some of the confusion around Google's apps for Android. We always love seeing novel uses of Android, including custom Android builds from developers who see a need. I look forward to seeing what comes next!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source:
http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/09/note-on-google-apps-for-android.html

Yep, it's over.

We're still asking for community access to these applications that are almost essential to the current Android experience. I really doubt it's hurting their bottom line substantially enough to justify the killing of their distribution.
In other words, Mr. Morrill's post was pretty much a sugarcoated attempt to gain some of the PR they lost.
We always love seeing novel uses of Android, including custom Android builds from developers who see a need.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A "novel" use from a developer who "sees a need" is quite a way to describe a substantially improved version of your OS.

So what is the conclusion? A lot of the things could be replaced, but as mentioned before, the sync tools and so forth are tricky to get around. What is the next step from here?

cyanogen said:
Yep, it's over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How so? What would be wrong with releasing the ROM without the google apps, but have a script or something that runs on first boot that installs the missing apps?

cyanogen said:
Yep, it's over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So no more ROMs? Or no more ROMs with close-source apps?

AquaVita said:
How so? What would be wrong with releasing the ROM without the google apps, but have a script or something that runs on first boot that installs the missing apps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's still illegal. A clever trick to walk around the legal fine print. But in essence, it's illegal...

AquaVita said:
How so? What would be wrong with releasing the ROM without the google apps, but have a script or something that runs on first boot that installs the missing apps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Without the basic function to sign into the device using your Google credentials, the ROM is useless. You can't just grab them from another build (as far as I know) because of the way they are tied in at compiling to the framework. So you would have to pull the ROM, grab the proprietary pieces from somewhere else, and compile the source yourself.
Right?
To touch on this in another way, what would it take for Cyanogen to become a licensed distributor of Google's Apps for Android? If there are really 30,000 users, couldn't legal fees be gathered from them? And, couldn't the business license be set up as a Not-For-Profit? Like the Association of Cyanogen Followers? If it were, wouldn't the required fees to license the distribution rights of the software be tax-free and operating expenses for the association? Meaning, any costs for running the business could be taken out of membership dues and donations? With the rest being tax write-offs?
Just a thought, as I would love to see this made legit, 4.0.4 is great, but I don't want this to stop here.... selfish I know, but it's the truth.

AquaVita said:
How so? What would be wrong with releasing the ROM without the google apps, but have a script or something that runs on first boot that installs the missing apps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guees thats no way. What if you have a wipe? No APNs or anything else? You cant dowmload "Market" als a single-app directly from google (as i know).

daveid said:
Without the basic function to sign into the device using your Google credentials, the ROM is useless. You can't just grab them from another build (as far as I know) because of the way they are tied in at compiling to the framework. So you would have to pull the ROM, grab the proprietary pieces from somewhere else, and compile the source yourself.
Right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then what the hell is google talking about "encouraging other ROM releases"? If that isn't possible without some pieces of Google software, then is it literally impossible to develop a custom ROM for android?
Thoughts, Cyanogen?

As soon as my contract is I am Too! I can predict a mass exit from android and google!

daveid said:
Without the basic function to sign into the device using your Google credentials, the ROM is useless. You can't just grab them from another build (as far as I know) because of the way they are tied in at compiling to the framework. So you would have to pull the ROM, grab the proprietary pieces from somewhere else, and compile the source yourself.
Right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this true? If its proprietary how did CY compile them in the first place? In order to compile don't you need access to the source?

So just come up with replacements for those apps that are closed source and not available on the market...
Devs WILL find a way... I guarantee you
But yeah, Google SUCKS on this...They could have just given him limited licensing...

Without a doubt the most foolish decision I've seen Google make in terms of Android so far. This puts a major damper on a community that was helping make Android better in very real ways.
The only explanation I can come up with is that the closed apps use 3rd party licensed code that Google can't redistribute. Otherwise this is just completely boneheaded.

Google said:
With a high-quality open platform in hand, we then returned to our goal of making our services available on users' phones. That's why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google's way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren't open source, and that's why they aren't included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it's done with the best of intentions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They claim these apps (YouTube, Gmail, etc) are Googles way to benefiting from Android, but they are not distributed with all android phones? I understand that companies license these applications from Google, but how does it hurt them if they are installed on a device that would already have them?
Then they say "We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market", yet this entire thing came about because the Android Market is being distributed? How can any device get these if the market is one thing that can not be distributed?
I paid for the ADP1, which came with Gmail, YouTube and the other applications. The ADP1 feature was that I could flash any ROM I wanted to on the device, but now they are telling me that I can't put one on there if it contains their applications that my device had in the first place.
Hello Google, welcome to the the Dark side, so much for "Don't be evil"
I will help with anything I can on a project to replace the Google Products.

AquaVita said:
How so? What would be wrong with releasing the ROM without the google apps, but have a script or something that runs on first boot that installs the missing apps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ya i was thinking the same .i mean if not ,how do we get gmail ,youtube,ect?do we have to download from market ? some are not in market like youtube.i use gmail all the time .

Do the current Roms have to pulled?

That shiny device with an Apple on it is looking mighty delicious

CyanogenMod officially done now:
http://twitter.com/cyanogen
"Sorry everyone, CyanogenMod in it's current state is done. I am violating Google's license by redistributing their applications."

dwang said:
Is this true? If its proprietary how did CY compile them in the first place? In order to compile don't you need access to the source?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had assumed that they were "reverse-engineered" using something like baksmali, to gain access to the source.... I could be wrong.

Cyanogen shut down by Google

I cant believe this. Cyanogen just twittered this:
Sorry everyone, CyanogenMod in it's current state is done. I am violating Google's license by redistributing their applications.
More at: http://twitter.com/cyanogen
(Mods I know it should belong in General but the developer thread should know about it then the other ones. Forgive me)

You are taking it all wrong. He hasn't been shut down, wont be shut down, etc. Read the original statement. As long as you any apps that arent part of the source code repository you are not violating anything as far as google is concerned.
With a high-quality open platform in hand, we then returned to our goal of making our services available on users' phones. That's why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google's way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren't open source, and that's why they aren't included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it's done with the best of intentions.
I hope that clears up some of the confusion around Google's apps for Android. We always love seeing novel uses of Android, including custom Android builds from developers who see a need. I look forward to seeing what comes next!
So lets please stop being chicken little and get on with the dev work. Not including certain apps is not going to make or break any rom as each user should be able to find the apps on their own.
The sky is not falling although my home did get flooded in atlanta last week.

Johnny Blaze said:
You are taking it all wrong. He hasn't been shut down, wont be shut down, etc. Read the original statement. As long as you any apps that arent part of the source code repository you are not violating anything as far as google is concerned.
With a high-quality open platform in hand, we then returned to our goal of making our services available on users' phones. That's why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google's way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren't open source, and that's why they aren't included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it's done with the best of intentions.
I hope that clears up some of the confusion around Google's apps for Android. We always love seeing novel uses of Android, including custom Android builds from developers who see a need. I look forward to seeing what comes next!
So lets please stop being chicken little and get on with the dev work. Not including certain apps is not going to make or break any rom as each user should be able to find the apps on their own.
The sky is not falling although my home did get flooded in atlanta last week.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are aware of that the phone relies on ALOT on framework and other files. Have you tried to delete any of the Google Apps? The phone doesnt work without them. Also, open source replacements arent going to be pulled out of the air magically. Its going to take ALOT of work.
Are you sad all your stuff was ruined?

Johnny Blaze said:
You are taking it all wrong. He hasn't been shut down, wont be shut down, etc. Read the original statement. As long as you any apps that arent part of the source code repository you are not violating anything as far as google is concerned.
With a high-quality open platform in hand, we then returned to our goal of making our services available on users' phones. That's why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google's way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren't open source, and that's why they aren't included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it's done with the best of intentions.
I hope that clears up some of the confusion around Google's apps for Android. We always love seeing novel uses of Android, including custom Android builds from developers who see a need. I look forward to seeing what comes next!
So lets please stop being chicken little and get on with the dev work. Not including certain apps is not going to make or break any rom as each user should be able to find the apps on their own.
The sky is not falling although my home did get flooded in atlanta last week.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure its not truly legal but i think its the way they have gone about it- and in the spirit of open source i fail to see how it affects them.....i thought their business plan was based on more people using the net, more people using their apps, and more people using google to search..... so surely he is creating more business for them?.....
I don't like where this is heading......

jealous
if i was google id be going mad too, seeing the new youtube and market on phones and its not supposed to be out yet.
maybe they will offer him a job

John Player said:
if i was google id be going mad too, seeing the new youtube and market on phones and its not supposed to be out yet.
maybe they will offer him a job
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree and I think those apps were the straw that broke the camels back...

Its all crap no one not even google can stop someone developing a rom with copyrighted
material on the internet.there are many ways to cover this up without being traced
Anyway what's stopping a simple script downloading google apps onto the device on boot? Nothing as android as source is open

spyz88 said:
You are aware of that the phone relies on ALOT on framework and other files. Have you tried to delete any of the Google Apps? The phone doesnt work without them. Also, open source replacements arent going to be pulled out of the air magically. Its going to take ALOT of work.
Are you sad all your stuff was ruined?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The frameworks, etc and files needed to run the os are part of what you can get from the repository. I set up my mac to cook my own roms so I do know whats there and what isnt.
I bootcamped back into vista, loaded adb explorer and removed market, gmail, youtube, and maps. My phone does work without them. If you need gmail then yes there would be an issue but only reason i have gmail is that it was required for me to get my G1 when it came out. Try it for yourself. You will be a lot less functional but your phone will still work.
Besides Google is kinda in a shaky spot. Win mo although not great is established along with RIM os, and Iphone so Android is still in the growing stage and to attract the business users it has to have no hiccups or possible easy exploits so I do believe they will do a lot of barking but very little bite. Probably if Cyanogen wouldnt have made it on engadget, yahoo, msn probably wouldve been left alone.
There are still better things to do with the os. The real dev work is what cyanogen and others do with the kernel, memory management, etc not the apps included with the rom.

PROJECT:OpenAndroid
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=564263 We are attempting to as a community replace all of google's parts with opensourced programs developed and written ourselves. If you have any thoughts or suggestions please let us know.

The issue is that right now if you want to create a useful ROM you need to include the Market app at a minimum.
Sure Gmail is easy enough to replace, and Maps can be downloaded from the Market. But wait, you can't download it from the Market because you don't have a Market app.
So until there is an open source way to access the Market the ROM development community for Android pretty much hosed.

Hopefully this is not heading to where I think it is heading to... Or I might just jump on the next iPhone and say bye bye to Google.

Actually just a though. Just make a way to for the end user to back the google apps and then after a flash to reload them back on after install. That is not violating their stoopid terms then lol. And then for any updates just providing where you can get the updated stuff directly from google. Like where to get market 1.6 and so forth just right from google. Again no violating anything google. Defiantly a sad day for android. Since they don't let tethering , more then 3 home, not having file system access (like win mo), and no ads (adfree) lol, and many of the other great things with out root. If Google sees this thru I am going to go back to Apple iPhone and to hell with Android. Google will loose alot of users out of this I think.

Just write apps to tie you in with Hotmail / contacts / calendaring / outlook and leave GMail totally out of it.... Google will change their tune about the usage of 'their' apps. Because really they get the most from it by keeping you tied in to their online services.

Wow! I dont even know what to think. It must be a cold day in hell. I really hope that Cyanogen and the devs here @xda can come up with a way around this. And to think that Cyanogen was making some serious headway with the development of his Roms, website, and YouTube channel. I am more or less in shock right now. I have all the faith in the world that you guys will come through this still developing the best the Android community has to offer. Just be patient...
And seriously?...you would switch to Iphone? Who the #UCK wants one of those pieces of $H1T.
NOT ME!!

I highly doubt google would actually follow through and take legal action on something like this. It would be a bad business move all around. I would expect the C&D are more about pleasing manufactures and carriers more then google being worried about their own code, in which case who can blame them as they are at a point where they desperately need to attract these companies in order to ensure the future of android.

Just received a pretty interesting article via Twitter.
http://bit.ly/2NjYST
Not my article, and not necessarily my opinion, but it's a good read.

Arrgghh..google..
Bubye google apps..lets just forget them!
Modified android is much important then google apps itself!!
Google, you are very ridicoulous!! You make your app avaliable free for other system, but for your own system? Even now you make gmail support exchange..
I think i hate google as much as i hate apple..lol..

spyz88 said:
You are aware of that the phone relies on ALOT on framework and other files. Have you tried to delete any of the Google Apps? The phone doesnt work without them. Also, open source replacements arent going to be pulled out of the air magically. Its going to take ALOT of work.
Are you sad all your stuff was ruined?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I beg to differ. The phone works without the google apps. I know. Thats what I had when I first got my HTC Magic 32A. For some reason, HTC did not include ANY of Google's stuff in it.
So, no market, no gmail, no maps, no youtube. It was boring as hell. but i still can do pretty much all i needed to do on it (emails, txt and calls).
Just had to imap/pop3 sync gmail using the HTC email client. One thing I hated was the fact that I need to rely on SlideME for my apps. SlideMe(at the time) had very limited apps.

So is including the market breaking the rules, if it is can someone setup a webpage alternative to download apps then just not include google stuff. Open street maps has better maps anyway so i use rmaps, google mail well plenty of email clients about. If we wait i am syre there will be alternative apps for the other google stuff.

Or, oh, I dunno, how about adding a default bookmark android-leak or something and let users download pirated apps? "To bypass the Google Market"? LOL... Basically Google wants us to know that including their apps for free (as in Cyanogen roms) is just like pirating apps, so we are the bad guys already anyway.
I really hope Google will not follow up with the C&D and further spread fear all around.
We are all Google's pawns by using Google apps, let them see our email, see our location, store our search preferences etc to "return better result for your searches" or really, target marketing. When we stop using Google apps (, and move our business to, gasp, Hotmail), they will like it better?
RotoRooted said:
And seriously?...you would switch to Iphone? Who the #UCK wants one of those pieces of $H1T.
NOT ME!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just saying I'm not happy with the news and I'm going to vote with my money when the next device comes along. I thought Google was the "good guy", but now I think Apple and Google both seem like they think they are the gods of the world anyway.

READ ME: Clearing Misconceptions About CyanogenMod C&D

Lately a lot of threads have been popping up on this subforum and others with regard to the CyanogenMod C&D. A lot of these long threads seem to just be giant echo chambers filled with uninformed or ignorant end-users who don't understand the true nature of the situation. I am creating this thread to help clear up the misconceptions surrounding CyanogenMod, the AOSP, and Google's position in this matter.
Here are some common misconceptions and their clarifications:
"We should petition to keep Android open source!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google acquired Android, Inc. in 2005 and began investing time and manpower to develop the Android operating system into a fully fledged mobile operating system. The entire project was open sourced in October 2008 to coincide with the first public availability of the Dream hardware. Since then, the Android Open Source Project (which consists of all the source code required to build a working Android environment) has been completely open source. Period.
On top of the completely open source operating system, Google also bundled several useful applications into many stock builds of Android. These builds are commonly referred to as "Google Experience" builds, and the apps include things like the Market, GMail, Youtube, etc. These are NOT a part of the Android Open Source Project, they NEVER WERE a part, and it is unlikely that they ever will be. Many end users seem to have the misconception that these apps are and/or should be a part of the AOSP. They are not. Period.
"Google is trying to keep me from installing other ROMs [sic]!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The C&D letter to Cyanogen was not meant to suppress users from using non-official builds ("ROMs"). The purpose of the cease and desist letter was to stop Cyanogen from continuing to redistribute without permission the proprietary Google-specific apps described above. This is completely within Google's right to do so.
Now to be fair, the work done on xda has often skirted the matter of unauthorized redistribution. In fact, without unauthorized redistribution, it would be difficult (but not impossible) to "cook ROMs". However, unauthorized redistribution has generally been viewed as an unspoken, ungranted privilege. If the company holding the rights to the related software issues a cease and desist letter, the community must respect that choice. To fail to do so would only serve to delegitimize what we do here and risk the survival of the os hacking community as a whole. Users with an overinflated sense of entitlement, you are not welcome here!
"I bought the phone, I should have a right to use the proprietary Google software however I like."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Generally, being legally licensed to run a software package does still impose limitations on your usage of it (e.g. you cannot make unauthorized copies or disassemble it). However, in this case, the violation is not in the end-user act of installing CyanogenMod, it is with Cyanogen distributing it. And by no means is this singling out Cyanogen; any "ROM cooker" that includes copyrighted proprietary software in the updater (which at this point is the majority of them) is potentially risking a legal letter.
"Google should not have waited until Cyanogen had worked so much to shut him down!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As in #2, I have to emphasize that unauthorized redistribution is something of an unspoken tacit permission. "ROM cookers" therefore need to exercise good judgement. Back when builds were simply slightly modified versions of stock update.zip files, it was easy for Google to turn a blind eye. The latest CyanogenMod installer included a leaked pre-release version of the Android Market software. Now, I hope it's plainly obvious for even the most oblivious reader, but if you leak a company's unreleased proprietary software before their official release, chances are you will piss them off. Leaks like this have several potentially negative consequences for companies: 1) decreased perceived quality because the program had not been fully debugged, 2) ruining planned launch timelines, 3) causing server backend issues due to unrecognized clients logging in.
Bottom line is this: if you are a "ROM cooker" and you absolutely have to include proprietary copyrighted software in your build, DO NOT INCLUDE ANY UNRELEASED SOFTWARE. You will very likely get C&D'd.
"Google should appreciate Cyanogen's hard work!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From the time you boot up your phone to when you run that first app, probably somewhere like only 1% of the code is written by the "ROM cook". The process of "cooking a ROM" is not, for the most part, programming.
If you want to give credit where credit is due, for the most part you would be thanking Linus Torvalds and the contributors of the Linux kernel, the Android Open Source Project team, and the folks who really did the groundbreaking work establishing root access on the Dream.

good post!

Agreed, very good post..

Maybe someone can clear something up for me (its been bugging me a little)
If i compile from source i need to add files that are pulled from my phone.
Does this mean that ALL roms are technically illegal, even if they dont include the google closed source programs.
Or are we ok to include these files as they are needed for the phone to work, so considered closed source but part of asop?
I have not seen this addressed and i am curious what the state of play is with these files.

Agreed ........ !

Thank you for taking the time to clear things up. Hopefully this will help folks gain some perspective and move toward productive directions.
If i compile from source i need to add files that are pulled from my phone.
Does this mean that ALL roms are technically illegal, even if they dont include the google closed source programs.
Or are we ok to include these files as they are needed for the phone to work, so considered closed source but part of aosp?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good question. It certainly means the ROM is not purely open-source, at the least.
My sense is that those files are the property of HTC and we don't have a license to redistribute them.
Now I don't really expect HTC to serve anyone with a C&D anytime soon, for various reasons, but until a ROM cook gets a written license to redistribute those files from HTC, or until a fully open-source rewrite of those files is done, it's a gray area at the very least.

vixsandlee said:
Does this mean that ALL roms are technically illegal, even if they dont include the google closed source programs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Speaking very technically: yes, because you do not have the express right to redistribute the binary drivers for things like the wifi module or the radio. In reality, these pieces of code are so tightly tied to the hardware that it is unlikely you will get a c&d for redistributing them. However, in the hardcore open source community, even these drivers will be left out, requiring the user to fetch them for him/herself. That would be the 100% license-compliant way.
I'm pleased to say though, there are already many people working on semi and full license compliance methods and "ROMs". Just take a look at the first two pages of this subforum.

vixsandlee said:
If i compile from source i need to add files that are pulled from my phone.
Does this mean that ALL roms are technically illegal, even if they dont include the google closed source programs.
Or are we ok to include these files as they are needed for the phone to work, so considered closed source but part of asop?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the post again. It's illegal to even copy the Google APKs files out of an original installation and import it into a custom ROM. The major issue was that all ROM creators were importing the Google Apps which are "closed-source" into their own legal open-source code.
I guess now, it'll be down to the individual to decide whether they want the Google Apps in their phone. That's why scripts have been created to give the user a choice on whether to do the illegal act of placing the Google Apps onto their phone.
Google are unlikely going to chase you the individual down rather than the ROM creator (like in Cyanogen's case with the C&D letter).
Hope this helps.

ok. so then all this is not because of the google propriatary crap, but because he released the market early, so google just USED this BS reason to stop that? in other words, had he not released it early, nothing would have happened?
if thats the case, i dont blame cyanogen, but i blame ALL those GREEDY users that MUST have EVERYTHING before everyone else because they feel they need to be the best. you greedy punks almost ruined it for everyone. from what i see cyanogen usually tries his best to do what the people want, had the people not wanted the market so early(its not even that great, just new colors "ooohhh wooow ive never seen colors before i must have that! and now!".. ridiculous.) then this wouldnt happen.
now from i see the latest and "greatest" usually comes in the experimental releases. i think, cyanogen should shut down the experimental releases, or only release them to certain people.. or make it a lot LESS public..that way he can keep testing the stuff till its good and then release it as stable when he sees fit. i mean come on, 4.0.4 is already awesome!! i love it! been using since forever. why couldnt everyone else just be happy with 4.0.4?
and like the post said, dont be stupid and release some leaked program. cause it doesnt just shut you down its gonna shut everyone down. unfortunately i see that soon some noob working on hero roms is gonna release something, and then HTC will be here next.
oh and add this in there:
My guess is that Google has known for some time what was going on, but probably thought 'best not to upset the apple cart' while Android was in its infancy, with only one or two devices from a single manufacturer available on a single carrier. Now that we are on the verge of Android devices being shipped from at least five hardware vendors with over half a dozen carriers, Google probably felt that they needed to get a handle on this. I sense they feared things getting out of control with modders doing willy-nilly ports of innovations from one vendor/carrier to another—e.g., Motoblur on HTC devices and HTC Sense on Motorola devices. I think Google's legal team had a strong part in what took place, and forced action.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and i just saw a rom that got some of the motoblur stuff mixed with hero and for the g1. how long do you think till motorola and HTC are here complaining about software on the g1 that isnt supposed to be?

Why don't Google offer these closed-source apps like they do for Google Maps? They could only benefit from more users having the 'Google Experience', even though their phones don't have them pre-installed.

TunsterX2 said:
I guess now, it'll be down to the individual to decide whether they want the Google Apps in their phone. That's why scripts have been created to give the user a choice on whether to do the illegal act of placing the Google Apps onto their phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If a user downloads a "ROM" without Google apps on it, downloads an official update.zip from google.com, and then copies the Google apps from the official update into the cooked "ROM", that completely mitigates the problem of unauthorized distribution and only leaves the much less sticky issue of unauthorized usage. Unauthorized usage is typically a lot less offensive to the interested companies and definitely a lot less enforceable. There are likely some EULAs somewhere governing the usage of the Google apps (GMail, Market, etc) and except for Market I would be surprised if they explicitly required the app to run on authorized distributions only. But again like I said, it would be difficult to detect, let alone enforce.

peshkata said:
Why don't Google offer these closed-source apps like they do for Google Maps? They could only benefit from more users having the 'Google Experience', even though their phones don't have them pre-installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a very good question, and one I sure would like the Android team at Google to answer. The only app I see being a problem would be Market, since it requires a secured app-private to function properly (which would not be guaranteed on a non-GE phone).

Your post nicely presents the legal aspects and rights of Google but IMHO misses the larger point. The open source community was believing in the ideals of open source and looking the other way at the control Google has over this platform. The pieces that Google controls are not easily (if ever practically) replaceable.
Google actions show that they are not that much different than Apple in trying to control the platform and the user experience. Don't be surprised to see Google behave more and more like Apple as the platform gets stronger and Google's need of an open community weakens.
The only bright spot is one that Google may have missed - that is their existing fight with Apple and AT&T regarding GoogleVoice. Their actions against Cyanogen gives Apple and AT&T ammunition in their arguments with the FCC, which is the last thing Google wants.
This is the only lever this community has over Google. Bring up the FCC and Google Voice case, and Google may back off.
For those who pray for Cyanogen to be hired by Google -- that is the last thing you want. We do not need Google having more control over him, but less.
For those who think that creating bypasses with clean roms and user-initiated backups will solve these problem -- these are short-term technical workarounds which Google could close too.

so with it being technically illegal its pointless (IMHO) being open source.
Its fine with taking from the community, but google seem unwilling to give anything back.
Roll on when full open source roms appear, It would be like a linux distro coming with everything but keyboard and mouse drivers.

This is all legally correct. But it misses the point of the uproar.
We did not expect Android to devolve into a squabble over closed source bits when the whole premise is open source. Goog has disappointed, plain and simple. Your sticky is an apologist's point of view since it doesn't address that fundamental issue.
edit: btw, if Goog was upset about the new Market app specifically, they could have blocked its access to the market using a client-check.

rbrahmson said:
This is the only lever this community has over Google. Bring up the FCC and Google Voice case, and Google may back off.QUOTE]
well think about it. where would google make more money, in allowing the deals it made with htc and motorola and stuff to fall apart because they allow none licensed people do distribute there apps, but keeping the community with them, and winning with google voice... OR in screw the community, keeping the deals on good grounds, and losing the google voice fight? seeing how apple is STILL WAY ahead of android in terms of users, its tough. because its basically, either google kills its own OS for phones, or starts letting go of the iphone ideas by starting with screwing the google voice. honestly, from what i can see, google is gonna come out losing either way lol
then again it is GOOGLE. they never loses anything =/ though with that BING thing growing.. the giant may go down some day. its getting attacked on all sides
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

vixsandlee said:
so with it being technically illegal its pointless (IMHO) being open source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That depends on what your objective is. Open source has many benefits, and many of those are retained even if your distribution contains some closed-source elements. Another important aspect to remember is that while x86 PCs have had three decades to mature, smartphones have not had that same luxury. Given enough time, even hw drivers will become open sourced. So "pointless" is a bit hyperbolic.
Its fine with taking from the community, but google seem unwilling to give anything back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The spirit of open source is the spirit of giving. In that vein, Google has invested considerable time building parts of the AOSP from scratch. To say that they are "unwilling to give anything back" is just a plain falsehood.
Roll on when full open source roms appear, It would be like a linux distro coming with everything but keyboard and mouse drivers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good luck finding an open source 3G radio driver.

If anyone has read any of the dialog between Steve (cyanogen) and some other Google employees about this issue (most notably JBQ), you would realize that the Google employees are trying to work with Steve.
There is dialog about making the AOSP able to be built and fully functional and distributable without infringing on anyone's rights. This includes investigating other avenues for users to acquire and legally install the Google applications.
The current belief is that Google's legal team sent the C&D letter to Steve, and that it was not done so at the request of the Android developers. They most likely would have liked to work with him quietly and amicably.
Also, please remember that the Market application is not a part of AOSP. The Market application is Google's proprietary code; it is not part of the Android base. Not all Android devices have Google's Market—that is why there are other markets and means of installing software.
I have no doubt that this "controversy" will ultimately be for the best. I believe that Steve, JBQ and the rest of Google/Android will find a middle ground that will work best for everyone. (JBQ has an excellent history of working with other developers and finding good solutions for all—I remember back when he was working at Be and how helpful he was to all of those writing applications for BeOS.)

ytj87 said:
We did not expect Android to devolve into a squabble over closed source bits when the whole premise is open source.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what you're saying is you expected everything included in a Google Experience phone to be open source? I think the problem here is you (and the people you lump into "we") don't understand that Android isn't just built for users, it's also built for handset manufacturers. Quote from the OHA website:
Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license?
Apache is a commercial-friendly open source license. The Apache license allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open source community. Because these innovations and differentiated features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are protected from the "viral infection" problem often associated with other licenses.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In light of that, I don't feel its necessary to dignify the rest of your post with a response.

peshkata said:
Why don't Google offer these closed-source apps like they do for Google Maps? They could only benefit from more users having the 'Google Experience', even though their phones don't have them pre-installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because they charge companies like T-Mobile to offer the phone "With Google". If Google put them on the market, then, according to google, any android device would be able to get these applications. So why would T-Mobile pay to have them included. This how Google makes money off of android, this is why they bought it in the first place. They didn't develop android for the open source community, they are a publicly traded company, all their share holders want to know is "How is this going to make use money?". But it is great that the platform is open.
But that brings up Google's "response" where they state any android device can get applications via the Android Market. How can ANY android device get these applications from the market, if only "With Google" devices ship with the market...

The BIG problem with Open Source...

Making something Open Source is essentially a tool to crush innovation, and make developers lazy, so they are more like robots without a brain of their own.
It is an easy route to make some money by taking an open source library/ project, introducing ads, repackaging it with your own name and publishing it. Both the platform (e.g Google Play Store) and the developers are happy because they both get to make money without any effort.
The end result: Unhappy users and dumb developers!
Over the last 8 years or more, I have tried hundreds of apps in specific categories like File Managers, Gallery, Music Player, Video Player, etc. Yet I haven't found one that is PERFECT. Although 'perfect' is subjective, extremely few apps are worthy of applause.
If you search for Gallery apps on Google Play Store, you will get thousands of apps. Unfortunately, literally over half of them are identical and copycats of the Simple Gallery app. Rest are total garbage. Clearly, these apps are taking some easily (or freely) available library/ source, changing the name and signature, introducing ads, packaging them and publishing on Google Play Store under different developer accounts. It is quite possible that many of these apps are from the same developer who has several developer accounts. The number of copycats that are allowed to flourish on Google Play Store is simply unbelievable.
This kind of poor vetting by Google Play Store makes for a terrible user experience when people try out different apps, only to find that they all are exact replicas of each other. They are clearly violating the REPETITIVE CONTENT policy of Google Play Store where these apps have absolutely nothing of value to add. They are simply a source of ad revenue for the developers. Google probably doesn't mind that because they get 30% cut from those revenues.
As far as Gallery apps are concerned, there are literally less than 10 unique apps among thousands listed on Google Play Store. Much less actually. There is absolutely no thought/ love given when designing apps. Despite the versatility that Android supposedly offers, the interface, ease of access, features, etc leave too much to desire for.
That said, the question is 'Are Good Android apps very difficult to make'?

Making a good Android Apps is neither difficult nor easy. It requires a good understanding of the needs of the client in the app. And the rest is quality hard work.

nihitthakkar said:
Making a good Android Apps is neither difficult nor easy. It requires a good understanding of the needs of the client in the app. And the rest is quality hard work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about making apps for the market, and not specifically for a client?
As stated in the OP, most apps are pure garbage, or replica of other apps. In other words, no thought or concept, absolutely no love or attention to detail. The Play Store is just a hub to publish some garbage and make money out of it through ads.
Is the amount of effort required in making and maintaining an app too much relative to the money to be made from such apps?
Apps are end results of knowledge imparted in educational institutions. It is pretty clear that the good students don't make apps.

As with Gallery apps, the same is also true for File Managers, Music Players, Video Players, Browsers, etc.
It is easy to relate with Browsers because many are forks of Chromium. The same holds true for other types of apps too.
In any category, there are less than 10 unique apps (even lesser actually) and all the rest (in hundreds or thousands) are either copycats or pure garbage.
Sad and unfortunate truth.

The Google Play Store boasts of roughly 3 million apps today.
I bet there are less than 300 unique experiences (read: apps)! All the rest are copycats or pure garbage.

Making good apps requires a dedicated team and effort.
If you want good apps for yourself, either code them yourself or commission a developer to get it done. And don't expect it to work on all phones.
Because android device fragmentation is a massive problem.
And expecting app development from an Education Institution?
Thats most hilarious **** I have heard. Education institutions don't give 2 Fs about the commercial setup.

karandpr said:
Making good apps requires a dedicated team and effort.
If you want good apps for yourself, either code them yourself or commission a developer to get it done. And don't expect it to work on all phones.
Because android device fragmentation is a massive problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does that take away the opinion expressed in the OP?
Does it counter the fact that the Google Play Store is full of garbage apps?
Does it counter the fact that most apps are essentially replicas of each other?
Does it counter the fact that most apps are simple repackaging of open source resources with very little value to no value being added in the final product?
Does it counter the fact that open source resources are essentially a tool for incompetent developers to make money without any effort?
karandpr said:
And expecting app development from an Education Institution?
Thats most hilarious **** I have heard. Education institutions don't give 2 Fs about the commercial setup.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you point me to where I said so?
You may want to read my comment again.

TheMystic said:
Does that take away the opinion expressed in the OP?
Does it counter the fact that the Google Play Store is full of garbage apps?
Does it counter the fact that most apps are essentially replicas of each other?
Does it counter the fact that most apps are simple repackaging of open source resources with very little value to no value being added in the final product?
Does it counter the fact that open source resources are essentially a tool for incompetent developers to make money without any effort?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You stated my opinion. I did mine.
1.) Your opinion. Not fact. There are lot of good unique apps.
2.) Yes and No. Garbage apps use better SEO and have higher visibility. Unlike iOS store ,Play store doesn't curate apps manually.
3.) No they are not. Lot of apps are restricted by System APIs enforced by Google. This is true for Camera and File Manager Apps
4.) Welcome to open source. That's it's selling point. You are free to compile your own version of apps if it bothers you
5.) No it is not. This is a very pigeonholed vision of open source.
Can you point me to where I said so?
You may want to read my comment again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TheMystic said:
What about making apps for the market, and not specifically for a client?
As stated in the OP, most apps are pure garbage, or replica of other apps. In other words, no thought or concept, absolutely no love or attention to detail. The Play Store is just a hub to publish some garbage and make money out of it through ads.
Is the amount of effort required in making and maintaining an app too much relative to the money to be made from such apps?
Apps are end results of knowledge imparted in educational institutions. It is pretty clear that the good students don't make apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This statement here.

karandpr said:
You stated my opinion. I did mine.
1.) Your opinion. Not fact. There are lot of good unique apps.
2.) Yes and No. Garbage apps use better SEO and have higher visibility. Unlike iOS store ,Play store doesn't curate apps manually.
3.) No they are not. Lot of apps are restricted by System APIs enforced by Google. This is true for Camera and File Manager Apps
4.) Welcome to open source. That's it's selling point. You are free to compile your own version of apps if it bothers you
5.) No it is not. This is a very pigeonholed vision of open source.
This statement here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. The 1st point was an opinion, and thats what I said. A 'lot' of good unique apps? 'Lot' could be subjective/ relative, but I would say that even that would be less than 1% of the number of apps available on Google Play Store. Over 99% apps on Google Play Store are garbage.
2. Okay.
3. I don't think you tried out enough apps. In the last one week, I must have tried atleast 50 Gallery apps, and over 70% of them had the exact same UI, Settings, bugs, etc. Some of them had completely misleading pictures on their app page too.
4. I wish I could.
5. With every generalized statement, there are almost always exceptions, and this is no different. So exceptions prove the rule. Give the quality of apps on Google Play Store and the fact that many of them are replicas of each other created from the same code base/ source, it only proves that open-source provided earning opportunities to incompetent developers way more than being a tool to not reinvent the wheel.
As with my statement on educational institution, you have misunderstood it. I said good students from institutions imparting coding knowledge don't make apps (with exceptions of course). That is very evident from the quality of apps we get to see (again obviously with exceptions). It is the lazy and incompetent lot that simply repackages a free resource without adding any value to it and then earn some money through ads.

Why isn't there custom opensource bootloaders like custom recoveries for android phones ?

This may be stupid, but I couldn't find any resources regarding this. We have custom recoveries for android devices but why isn't there custom bootloaders like there is for PCs ? Like in the PC space we have the likes of reFind and gnu grub.
Thanks

There are some instances of alternate bootloader projects. Just that they are not popular,
[Bootloader] LK for Xperia T
LK for Xperia T LT30p Only - Unlocked Bootloader Required WARNING 1: This modification makes changes to the devices partition table. I (lilstevie) am not responsible for any damage to your device or data loss that may occur. WARNING 2: ICS...
forum.xda-developers.com
EFIDroid
EFIDroid is a easy to use, powerful 2ndstage-bootloader based on EDKII(UEFI). It can be installed one-click with the EFIDroidManager app. You can add/remove/edit multiboot ROM's. There's no special support needed by ROM's or RecoveryTools(no...
forum.xda-developers.com
The developer of EFIdroid stopped developing in 2019.
efidroid on Android 9 and 10 devices ? · Issue #152 · efidroid/projectmanagement
Hi, I just want to know if efidroid supports devices with 6 GB RAM and 64/128 GB Storage devices running Android 9 and Android 10 ? thanks.
github.com

Not to mention you would need OEM's to cooperate....

Thanks @karandpr for that github comment a lot of info there. Thanks @galaxys too. So a quick summary would be that the reason is that for the bootloader to work smoothly there has to be support from the kernel too, which the OEMs should do and probably would not. But I didn't think about the support in the kernel was an issue. That does seem to be a lot of work and I see the reason now.

al_l_en said:
Thanks @karandpr for that github comment a lot of info there. Thanks @galaxys too. So a quick summary would be that the reason is that for the bootloader to work smoothly there has to be support from the kernel too, which the OEMs should do and probably would not. But I didn't think about the support in the kernel was an issue. That does seem to be a lot of work and I see the reason now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think Google intends to open up android anymore. They want restrictions like iOS but pretend to be open source for the "goodwill". What's the use of AOSP if you cant effectively install it on a device or your important apps don't work?
I believe PinePhones are the ones that can have truly open-source compatible hardware. The specs are underwhelming but the community is really good.
You can get spares easily and the battery is removable.
Only thing is they are mostly out of stock.

karandpr said:
I don't think Google intends to open up android anymore. They want restrictions like iOS but pretend to be open source for the "goodwill". What's the use of AOSP if you cant effectively install it on a device or your important apps don't work?
I believe PinePhones are the ones that can have truly open-source compatible hardware. The specs are underwhelming but the community is really good.
You can get spares easily and the battery is removable.
Only thing is they are mostly out of stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah those are great but the problem is that they are not usable for "normies" which will prevent mass adoption and hence cannot have a sustainable business model.
But I think google is not the only one to blame, like couldn't the OEMs actually provide bootloaders that can boot signed os images. Or is there any technical or security difficuties in doing that.

al_l_en said:
Yeah those are great but the problem is that they are not usable for "normies" which will prevent mass adoption and hence cannot have a sustainable business model.
But I think google is not the only one to blame, like couldn't the OEMs actually provide bootloaders that can boot signed os images. Or is there any technical or security difficuties in doing that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Normies are afraid to change the default browser, so bootloader is really out of their leagues.
Phone tinkering is a hobby, not a necessity. Phone tinkering itself is not a sustainable model.
Google is to blame primarily. Because they have a stringent list of requirements for devices to pass CTS. You can read the bootloader requirement and judge yourself.
Android 11 Compatibility Definition | Android Open Source Project
source.android.com
Without passing CTS, devices cannot use Google apps, they cannot get push notifications and they cannot pass SafetyNet checks used by most banking apps.
At the end of the day do I want to spend 100s of hours to bring a feature to an android phone which will probably be used by 10 users and deprecated by the time I finish doing it?
or do I want to buy a phone which will allow me to tinker freely in a community and ecosystem which allows modification?
For our tinkering pleasures, Pinephone is the way to go for now. They have support from Manjaro, Debian and KDE. Which is a big thing IMO.
Or else there you can roll your thing in RaspberryPi?

While going through related details I found an article about google probably switching to hardware based safetynet checks which could be ending google play compatibility on custom roms.
It really seems like google is using security as an excuse to make sure that there are no competitors in their business space.
Maybe this is because I have been only doing web development and only started learning app dev, but the reasons google use for CTS like for enforcing DRM, is also handled on websites while allowing openness and being neutral (or maybe the web is not as secure as something like this, so forgive me if I am wrong). Android could really take pages off the web ecosystem for being a neutral platform.
I really appreciate the patience for hearing out and also the references(and the rabbit holes that it was followed by) really taught me a lot about general android architecture.

al_l_en said:
While going through related details I found an article about google probably switching to hardware based safetynet checks which could be ending google play compatibility on custom roms.
It really seems like google is using security as an excuse to make sure that there are no competitors in their business space.
Maybe this is because I have been only doing web development and only started learning app dev, but the reasons google use for CTS like for enforcing DRM, is also handled on websites while allowing openness and being neutral (or maybe the web is not as secure as something like this, so forgive me if I am wrong). Android could really take pages off the web ecosystem for being a neutral platform.
I really appreciate the patience for hearing out and also the references(and the rabbit holes that it was followed by) really taught me a lot about general android architecture.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Theoretically, Google can end GPlay compatibility on Custom ROMs anytime they wish. It's just that lot of App Developers don't use SafetyNet the way it is intended and Google doesn't roll out its strict check. They do it once in a while.
They don't have any competitors in their business space. It's a very well-thought monopoly.
CTS restricts Google Play API access to vendor operating systems. So vendors like Samsung, OnePlus and others have to play by their rules. IIRC, the cost of Play API is around 15$ per device but it is subsidized for large quantities.
End users don't really care about Play API. But App Developers do.
Without Play services, there is no easy way to integrate push notifications, ads, maps, analytics, metrics, and so on. Rolling your own thing will take years to develop and won't work as seamlessly as the play service counterparts.
I don't think Google will ever cede their monetary interests for open collaboration.

karandpr said:
I don't think Google will ever cede their monetary interests for open collaboration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's for sure. The only way this monopoly can break is when an opensource alternative to google play services and other apis exist and while doing that it must be compatible with the existing google apis. And that is probably not going to happen in a long time. Although microg does solve this to some extent, but still it is a second citizen.
Some of the functionality is already there, like most of the google apps like docs and drive could replaced by nextcloud and then maps could be replaced by osmand. If some company, preferably an OEM, comes and integrates all of these into a package maybe there's hope. I think /e/ os tries to do this to some extent.

You might find this resource useful. As they have gone over a comprehensive set of bootloader software and tried to outline their primary features in detail. Hopefully, you’ll be able to determine the best one for your use case. https://www.ubuntupit.com/best-linux-bootloader-for-home-and-embedded-systems/