Related
This is a serious question although I appreciate it could be taken as a troll.
Should Microsoft start again with their mobile OS? I know why they have kept compatability with older software but I personally think this is hurting them more than throwing away backwards compatability.
Look at the iPhone - that started from scratch and has grown to prominence without any back catalog of software.
Cheers, Rob.
Looks like its beginning to reach game-over stauts for M$ IMO. It feels like it did when Palm went down. Sorry to say, but I'm beginning my investigation into Android.
Exchange Server
Hi all
I use an exchange server provider and I find it's features really useful, not just on my mobile, but in MS Outlook 2007, in fact much more so on the PC. Because there are few equivalent services that I can get for the same price that would be compatible with both PC software and a mobile device, I am essentially tied to Microsoft products for the time being. MS have done very well at preventing 3rd party PIM clients accessing the full services of an exchange server.
Google are in the process of offering a full exchange service via Google Sync. If they are successful in this (which they clearly will be) then they are really only one step away from offering their own exchange type server which will be natively compatible with?? Android of course.
I would consider switching from WM to another OS if:
1. That OS could access the full services based on an MS Exchange server.
OR
2. There were comparable alternatives to a remote MS Exchange server system which could be accessed from the device.
In fact, Windows Mobile 6.5 can't access all the features of an Exchange server (e.g. being able to set specific Follow up reminder dates & times for emails and viewing other users calendars, etc.). So actually, an alternative system doesn't need to beat MS Outlook, it just needs to beat the feature limited WM 6.5 Pocket Outlook.
Sorry for the ramble but I can't see many large companies switching to Android if their employees can't accept a meeting request OTA!
In answer to the original question, yes, MS REALLY should start again with Windows Mobile and this time make sure users are able to access all the features of an MS exchange server OTA.
Cheers
andrew-in-woking
From what I've read on the developers Blogs the WM7 framework is entirely different to 6x.. so most of them are concentrating on this.. appararently the performance is at least doubled (this wasn't an MS fanboy). I do assume though that MS will do all they can to be backwards compatible .. the howl that happened on Palm will be nothing as to the reaction should MS completely leave their userbase high & dry. Yes Apple scored well by timing their entry into the market perfectly.. but they risk being trapped in exactly the same way by advances in technology.
I don't think it's game over in any direction just yet.. MS simply dosn't give up and there is absolutely nothing similar in the way Palm ran itself into the ground.. Obviuosly the media is a huge cheerleasder for both Google & Apple - for some reason believing these guys are in some way cool, uncommerical, funloving dudes who are only interested in the love..
look guys, some years passed by, and ONLY thing m$ wants to say to us is:
let's make smartphones, AGAIN.
pda's as mobile comps are DEAD.
f your 6.5 and rich kids.
f android and their feeble ****oozas.
xoen / nothin
Sleuth255 said:
Looks like its beginning to reach game-over stauts for M$ IMO. It feels like it did when Palm went down. Sorry to say, but I'm beginning my investigation into Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
omg, sleuth is going over to the dark side
btw, which droid model are you looking at?
Personally, i love WM
I agree with Andrew-in-woking. I love the ability to sync my contacts, notes, calender, music, photos, videos, and documents both ways with my computer and my phone. And, the thing I've been telling everyone is that devices supported by a company will work best with other devices supported by the same company. I've been using windows on all of my computers since I can remember, and I will only have the best phone experience if I get a windows powered phone, which would provide the best connectivity with my computer. It doesn't make sense to get an Iphone, unless you have an apple computer, in my eyes. Same with every other device. Get android if you have other devices powered by google os. Same with Samsung, sony, etc. If you start connecting devices across different companies, it will only lead to more problems, reducing the quality of your experience with that device. Those are my 2 cents.
funny how everybody is complain about windows mobile compares to iphone.
y havnt nobody complaining about crackberry to iphone?
not everybody buy a windows mobile phone and use it as a toy (iphone)
i love my Acer neotouch S200 with 1G cpu with custom 6.5 rom 23506, i'm not sure if i still want an android phone. oh, the only reason i want android phone is because of google gps navigator.
I like windows mobile the way it is, when it become's like an iphone, there is no point in using it anymore.
I'm not saying anything can't be improved, just that if it interface's like an iphone, you might as well buy an iphone which is what I suspect most people are talking about when comparing them.
Say goodbye to the usefulness of your high resolution screen's while using a child and finger friendly interface....massive icon's, text, menu's, spend half your time zooming in and out...panning etc.
andrew-in-woking said:
That OS could access the full services based on an MS Exchange server.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Isn't this becoming a non-problem with better browsers? Outlook web access is now a very feature rich JavaScript based client - won't that run from anywhere?
Cheers, Rob.
I'm using Microsoft OS for about 15-20 years. First DOS, later Windows, and in the meanwhile also WM.
I don't need to sync anything between PC and phone but I want a "full" OS, you can customize whatever you want, and I love my Win32 API. On the IPhone and Android you don't even have a file explorer without downloading an extra app right? Yes I know "you can get an App for everything." And sure IPhone is comfortable and user friendly. But it's like that because it's a consumer device and being that it's probably better than WM. But actually WM is not only a toy (for people who don't feel comfortable with the more tech stuff) - it's an OS.
I don't really understand all the bad talking about WM recently. I agree using the GUI without a stylus is a pain in the ass but as I can see more and more parts of the OS are being updated with each new 6.5 build. And what's the deal about it.... it's only the f.... GUI!!!
Microsoft won't restart at all. Their OS will go and and on just like their desktop versions did. Remember all the talking back then. OS/2 kills Windows, MAC kills Windows.... IMO nothing of that happened at all.
MS over?
Don't believe the hype Sleuth.
HTC on windows rules.
Good to see you here.
Really appreciated your uc work on my HD.
New rom from Miri, uc'ed all my settings & apps.
Hours of fun.
100,000 apps for the iPhone in it's short life. 18,000 in all of WinMo's existence. 50K on Android already. M$ had a major chance when it buried Palm but it took the iPhone to bring real innovation back. Geezuz.
WinMo market share was cut in half in the last year. M$ is no longer considered a contender in the space dominated by iPhone, RIM, Nokia and now Android.
I too like the common api. But I've seen iPhone apps that blow my socks off. Hopefully, HTC will release a killer platform for android. I need capacitive, rez and battery life.
Moto Droid is the leader here now but it can't touch HTC keyboards. Lots of room for HTC to catch up. But android 2.0 on that very same droid can turn off bt and fire up your wifi profile when you walk into the door based on its continuously updated positional awareness. Weather works the same way, using wunderground school installations from a known database to give you local weather down to the exact temp where you are standing. You can use the camera to scan a bar code in a supermarket and it'll leverage Google's claim to fame and return info/best pricing on the web for the same item.
Meanwhile, m$ can't even make a decent marketplace. They are hobbled by feature drift and don't have a security clue (see chainfire's 2hr hack just to prove the point).
I wish it were otherwise but I've seen this all before...
Phonebook
munrobasher said:
Isn't this becoming a non-problem with better browsers? Outlook web access is now a very feature rich JavaScript based client - won't that run from anywhere?
Cheers, Rob.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Rob
You make a good point for mail and tasks but it's not quite the same as dialing directly from your cnmtacts.
Cheers
andrew-in-woking
Is this actually an issue of the OS itself? It's just market strategies and modern GUI experiences. With a good kernel (like we have with WM) it's no problem to add such features on top of it (if you just actually do it), but if you have limited kernel functionality but with the "good" GUI things on top it's harder to change the OS underneath it. I have no clue about Android yet but on the IPhone you can't even run background processes. Is Android just as flexible as the Windows kernel architecture? From what I heard I assume it's not, otherwise please proove me wrong.
The problem as you can tell it is more like Microsoft didn't care a lot about WM during the last couple years and especially HTC did what MS didn't, and now they need their time to catch up on their competitors again. But of course I'm also hoping they're doing fine with WM 7. I like the road they are going with 6.5 and if WM 7 is just like the new killer OS we're all waiting for (Windows 7 desktop isn't too bad neither right?) then why do you need your Apple and Google anymore???
FTTB, I'll probably get a Tilt 2 for hardware reasons. The iPhone is too restrictive for my tweaking tastes (although being a part of the jailbreak community would be fun) and no killer hardware for Android exists yet.
m$ needs a wake-up call. The mobile world is passing it by. This time next year (when I need another new gizmo) will be interesting. My predictions go with Android because Google has the information. Gathering it is what they do. Heck, the current navigation app on Android leverages the Google maps data for for actual image based turn by turn instruction. Impressive and always up to date.
After a lot of unsuccessful searching, i figured i would try here.
Why does it always seem like every app offered is for iPod and Android phones only? Everywhere i go. Available for iPod, Android, and MAYBE BlackBerry. It occurs mainly with popular websites "Now Available As An App!". I don't understand why... Can someone shed a little light on the matter please.
It's because these devices have a different interface (small screen, touch operated), a specialized app as opposed to a full-blown website can offer a more streamlined service.
And now i am seeing that IMO.IM has an app for iPod, iPad, Android, Blackberry, or Nokia! Really? That is almost like going out of their way to not be on windows. In a way, i am glad because this was kind of what apple had gone through back in the windows vs mac days. But now i am on the losing end and i am pissed. Im still really considering getting an android over windows 7
WP7 is a relative newcomer and only has a very small market penetration. If you were hoping to make money off an app which platform would you code for first?
The main reason is C++ SDK! Currently Microsoft hasn't provided C/C++ SDK for Windows Phone 7. There are many apps for Windows mobile which aren't available for wp7. such as MS-DOS or Lingvosoft dictionary , etc.
If you can contact to developers recommend them to visit http://windowsphone.interoperabilitybridges.com/
I pray and hope that Microsoft provide a C/C++ SDK for WP7
Hi Folks
Just wondering if anyone has seriously considered or is using android on the desktop?
Hear me out here!
Since stopping using windows as my main desktop OS about 18 months ago, I've been enjoying all the fruits that open source has to offer. I think I must have trying nearly every flavour of Debian/Ubuntu distro's and currently using some Mint/Gnome 2 setup. partly due to Unity's immaturity as Multihead desktop and probably part of me can't let go of that "Start" menu analog.
Through all my "testing" however I've still not settled on the right desktop/development environment, I've tried them all, really, I feel like I given pretty much every Window Manager out there a go, I especially like the blank canvas of openbox although I've got real work to do as well, so configuration wise It's not something I want to know right now
Part of my issue is I've got a what I would consider a bit of an edge case when I comes to setup. My current setup is over 3 Monitors ( I was considering 6 but thought I might get whiplash from moving my head too much :laugh: )
Right now I live my live mostly in Terminal Windows and Bash Prompts and do most of my hacking In gedit with some plugins ( maybe not the most productive but it's kinda of working for me at the minute )
After giving the Android x86 project, It got me thinking whether It would be a viable option. I know android certainly has the capability to run over multiple monitors although whether I would have to do a bit of hacking on the Framebuffer internals ( add extra ones etc ) has yet to be investigated.
With regards Android Development it kinda of makes sense to Develop right there in it's native environment ( I'm talking Kernel/System Level here not apps) . Compiling the AOSP etc should still be the same process.
So Yeah, Android on the Desktop - Discuss
I'd be interested if anyone has been crazy/foolhardy/patient enough to go down this road and are just keeping quiet about it and If there's any gotcha's etc to think about before embarking on such a mission.
Android is better off on smartphones and Tablets and Windows in better off on Desktops and Laptops.
As Im an avid gamer, I wouldnot mind having Android on my Desktop. Android has limited no. of good games but Windows dont.
Sent from my GT-i9100 equipped with Grenade Launcher and Remote Explosives
www dot apc dot io
Hope that answers your question.
Sent from my YP-G70 using XDA
nightfire37 said:
www.apc.io
Hope that answers your question.
Sent from my YP-G70 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, That's the kinda of thing, I was not aware of this project/product ( although still vapourware til next month ) At least I'm not crazy for thinking it
I spent a week or 2 only using an hp touchpad, to see if I could get away using it as a desktop replacement.
The biggest problem I found is that the apps aren't really designed for serious productivity. Google docs is great for viewing things, but is very irresponsive on large documents, and doesn't like fancy formatting. Browsing was a nightmare. I had 3 or 4 different browsers, because each had different plugins, flash support, user agents, etc. Many browsers were unstable, and flash always caused random crashes and other weird problems. Gmail is useless for attachements, and there is no reasonable text editor.
It's doable, but you may have to spend a while finding apps to replicate all the functionality you expect from your PC.
trevd said:
Thanks, That's the kinda of thing, I was not aware of this project/product ( although still vapourware til next month ) At least I'm not crazy for thinking it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your welcome. I am thinking on getting this for the fact to support the devs on the product.
Sent from my YP-G70 using XDA
As a desktop replacement I'm not so sure but Android can definitely work as a netbook replacements.
It also depends what you use ur desktop for. Anything more that web browsing and email, I'll still prefer having a full fledged OS on it.
theInfected1 said:
As a desktop replacement I'm not so sure but Android can definitely work as a netbook replacements.
It also depends what you use ur desktop for. Anything more that web browsing and email, I'll still prefer having a full fledged OS on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An android desktop could do mail, web browsing, multimedia, usenet or torrent downloads, games, dlna streaming, ebook reading and text editing (writing, creating pdf, etcetera) well.
It would not be able to do some of the things a desktop can do such as transcode video, run open office, use pc accessories, etcetera.
This is primarily because android is a mobile oriented os though it's likely that other than the use of pc accessories developers will write apps to get android doing even more as it is now a very popular tablet os and tablets often get used as a pc does.
Android could be a desktop for general everyday use right now but not for everyone.
For now windows and linux still beat android for both software, peripheral support and overall os speed making those better options however its also easier to have a new user mess those up than it is to mess up android so for general use it could be a good option.
Dave
( http://www.google.com/producer/editions/CAownKXmAQ/bigfatuniverse )
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk 2
Short version: Currently, I would say no. In the future (2+ years minimum), I highly expect Android to compete for the desktop. It comes down to software moreso than hardware.
TL;DR version: Let me start by saying I've owned quite a few Android smartphones, and I've worked on twice as many for friends, family, etc. I've also owned a couple of Android tablets. Without trying to sound too cynical, let's just say I've been around the block when it comes to Android devices When it comes to phones, Android is as perfect as any OS could be. With it always improving, there's always more to love. For tablets, the experience didn't come off to a great start, but there have surely been improvements since. The first high-end tablets, as well as cheap alternatives, ran on Gingerbread or older. My first cheapo tablet ran on a rare version of Android 2.0 Eclair. Let me tell you, it wasn't pleasant at all! I decided to wait for Honeycomb to come out before trying another tablet, and that's when I picked up an Acer Iconia A500 with the sole intention being to use it like I'd use a computer. The only computer I had at the time was a 10" Acer netbook, so once I bought the tablet, I sold the netbook right away. Now, I will admit that I waited a little bit to see how Honeycomb took off. By the time I got my Iconia, 3.2 was just coming out. In order to completely replace any kind of computer, I knew I would need at least 3 accessories: a stand, keyboard, and mouse. In my initial research, I learned that Android 3.0 didn't have mouse support by default. This was fixed by the dev community here, and Google was prompt to add mouse support in the 3.1 update. So by the time I had my Iconia running 3.2, everything appeared to be ready as far as being a PC replacement. Or so I thought. One major reason I picked the A500 over other tablets was the fact that it had a full-size USB port right on the tablet itself, whereas others either didn't have one at all (Xoom, Galaxy Tab), or it was only available on the keyboard dock (Transformer). As a computer replacement, USB was important to me. It didn't take long for me to realize that a tablet as a PC replacement wasn't the most ideal choice at the time. While there are plenty of apps available to perform many different tasks, the real problem I had was with the way Android itself handled. The apps were more than good enough. There's email, web browsing, multimedia, word processing, etc. The problem is the way Android feels with a keyboard and mouse. One major problem for me was that Android has no proper right-click support with mice. It simply works like a back button. I feel that right-click would be more natural as the functionality of a long press. Another issue I was constantly trying to deal with was the amount of clicks required to complete simple tasks. I could do the same tasks twice as fast on any computer running Windows or Linux. This caused more frustration than anything else. File managers were generally really good - there's actually a couple that I really like a lot, but navigation was always an issue. It wasn't only file managers, but within several areas. Once again, this goes back to needing more clicks for the same tasks, and long pressing where a simple right-click would feel better. While the move to ICS was a huge improvement in performance, it didn't really solve anything with productivity and ease of use. USB support was also hit or miss, and a lot of it has to do with drivers. Now that's understandable, as most hardware venders don't expect Android to be the host OS. Hopefully this changes some day. Eventually I ended up trading the tablet and all the accessories for a mid-range laptop which I use now. I have this system triple-booting between Windows, Linux, and Android (android-x86.org). The same problems I faced with the tablet, I also face with ICS on my laptop. I find myself only booting to Android once in a blue moon, and it's always just to show off to my friends. Any real work is done with one of my other OS's. There's definitely a lot of potential with the Android platform as a desktop OS, but I feel like it's still a couple years away at least. There are still a few minor annoyances trying to use Android as a computer that need to be addressed. Maybe by the time Android 6.0 or 7.0 is released, it will put up a good fight for the desktop. Only time will tell. Another viable option is phones that dock to a computer with a desktop interface. Anyone remember Canonical's plans? Also keep in mind Linux kernel 3.3 which adopted Android natively, which is a huge step for Canonical and their Ubuntu-Android dreams.
i have been using android since 2008. The only thing i can tell you is Android can replace netbooks but not laptops and desktop. I used macbook for a year or so but I went back to windows.
HP Touchpad replaced my netbook.70% of the time i use my hp touchpad to chat, browse and play videos.
But when it comes to work or college work I go back to my good ol' desktop or laptop because
google spreadsheet is nowhere near MS Excel
google docs is nowhere near MS Word
fortemcee said:
The only thing i can tell you is Android can replace netbooks but not laptops and desktop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I coming to that conclusion...... More for on the move devices, Although there some good stuff going on with the 10ft Experience (Android on TV's) at the moment.
It is also interesting to hear how people interact with their devices,
I'm far from an average user..... If i'm not developing with/on android I don't what to do with it :laugh: I think that's why my tablet has a keyboard and mouse plugged into most of the time
Thanks for the Input.
Bloodflame said:
Short version: Currently, I would say no. In the future (2+ years minimum), I highly expect Android to compete for the desktop. It comes down to software moreso than hardware.
TL;DR version: ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Brilliant That's exactly the type of responses I hoped for, a man whose got he's knees dirty in these dam robots on the desktop ... little long but I did read it.
[Short Version] In Summary I'm inclined to agree with you give it a couple of years, As a developer I could probably fix it up but I probably wouldn't be finished before google etc sorted it themselves[Short Version]
Here's a more verbose reply :laugh:
I have seen some 2.x tabs in my time, trailblazers but not nice.... I presume you gave the 1.6 x86 one a go as well then? Just for kicks.
I've been using a mouse and keyboard on my tablet, an Archos G9 through a usb hub which also has full size usb slot..... I've never really twicked onto the mouse lack of context menu/right click being an issue until you pointed it out, I can see how it would become an irritant after a while unless you're a MacUser than one button should be fine
The right mouse button acting the same as long press would be a vast improvement, I'll probably have a look at what development effort is involved in that ( or at least add it to the pile of interesting stuff I want to do with my time )
I've found the keyboard to be useful, Shortcut Keys are generally the same as there desktop counterparts. Take Ctrl+L to type a web address in your browser for example and If I dig around the android source code for a while I'm sure I could find some more unpublished ones or add my own and help on the number of click navigation issues etc .
USB Support is not a problem with each iteration of Android it gets better internally and I'm currently working with the opinion that if a linux driver exists I can compile it and at least get android the recognize the device... I've been deep in the USB Internals with android for the last few months.
On the Androidx86.... I've not checked the project in a while, there maybe have greater focus on solving some on these usability issues.
With regard to phones and docking I do remember canonicals plans ( wasn't that earlier this year) or are you talking about the circa 2009/10?!? ubuntu proposed project to run apks directly on your pc? essentially running the dalvikvm/surfaceflinger framebuffer management, support services on ubuntu with an X Window for the app.
The latter I feel is highly possible especially with android fully "unforked" in the kernel - not looked at the full details but I presume that includes all androids system level binder stuff and their shared memory modules and the former, I think a manufacturer release something called "Android in a Window" (Motorola or LG, maybe) An interactive android window on the desktop... also motorola's Webtop looks interesting.
I've written enough, Thanks for the Input
no one found any way to run android on PC or Laptop ???????
saqi4you said:
no one found any way to run android on PC or Laptop ???????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It runs in virtualisation fine and there are a few PC's that can run it natively, I would bet Jelly bean will run on x86 without fuss.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium HD app
I've had android ICS x86 on my Acer W500 (a windows tablet) for a little while now. It was installed along side the Windows 8 Developer Preview which expired and shuts down after a few minutes of use now. Instead of updating it to the W8 Consumer Preview for more time I just started using ICS full time. With my tablet in the "dock" (which is just a keyboard really) and a mouse hooked up I used it for days as a PC replacement (the power supply in my normal desktop died).
Android would be totally fine as a desktop OS, but apps would have to start being designed with that in mind.
Think about it:
You can't have multiple windows open at once on the screen for serious multitasking. What if I want to have a terminal/command prompt open while I reference a document in the web browser? With android I'm going to be switching between fullscreen apps.
The OS will have to be redesigned to allow for that capability and then new apps will have to be written to able to take advantage of it. Is it possible? Absolutely! Is it ready to be your desktop replacement? Not yet!
deathsled said:
Think about it:
You can't have multiple windows open at once on the screen for serious multitasking. What if I want to have a terminal/command prompt open while I reference a document in the web browser? With android I'm going to be switching between fullscreen apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would say there is arguments for and against sizeable apps (I suppose that describes it), Personally I run multiple monitors and generally have Maximised Windows all the way, obviously every use case is different but I think android would become "just another window manager" and lose some of what android is If it had totally free window placement.
It is also assuming the current desktop metaphor which is in use today is the best/most productive way of interacting with the machine.... Maybe we're just blindly doing it because we've all be trained to think like that, and it's always been that way.
I don't claim to have the answers on any of these points though
I suppose the only thing I can do is stop talking and start doing, "try it yourself" as we say in the "trade" .....I've got a laptop I could give it a blast on, I can at least try a multiple monitor test with that with out too much disruption.
saqi4you said:
no one found any way to run android on PC or Laptop ???????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dragon_76 said:
It runs in virtualisation fine and there are a few PC's that can run it natively, I would bet Jelly bean will run on x86 without fuss.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might want to read the full thread guys It's kinda what we're talking about, check the Androidx86 project out if you've never seen it before
Actually with apps like overskreen and the open source standout library which lets apps float, so you can have several open at once on screen together and swap between them, you could multitask with multiple open windows.
It's a new approach but already finding favour on tablets.
Dave
( http://www.google.com/producer/editions/CAownKXmAQ/bigfatuniverse )
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk 2
deathsled said:
You can't have multiple windows open at once on the screen for serious multitasking. What if I want to have a terminal/command prompt open while I reference a document in the web browser? With android I'm going to be switching between fullscreen apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I am doing some coding on my PC (running Ubuntu) I use i3-wm which is a tiling window manager. I find the best option is to have all applications full screen and switch between them quickly using keystrokes. The same thing can be done with a theoretical Android Desktop.
I think the case for an Android Desktop is a strong one. Just looking at mobile phone shops and sites, Android is the most popular firmware for smartphones on the market so the amount of people owning one is only going to increase. With that it means that online communities like this site will get bigger with more people offering support and development. An Android desktop might not have the same look and feel as the smartphone version but if it can emulate the same functionality i.e. the way to do something on a smartphone is the same as on the desktop then the leap from smartphone to desktop won't be so hard for people. As you will have the same underlying platform, the same will apply for developers so it means application development on the Desktop version should in theory be faster.
That's a way of doing it but my preference would be a convergence of devices where say I can plug my smartphone into a docking station which hooks it up with a monitor, keyboard and mouse or like the Assus Padfone where a smartphone can be pluged into a tablet dock which turns it into a tablet.
So after playing with my Surface for 5 days now, it is obvious there is a lot of capability in the back end through the Desktop. II have networked printers, and drives at both home and office going, streaming content etc. It is very capable for what it is, way beyond any other Ipad and Android tablet out there. So it seems to me it is just a matter of time before some XDAer figures out a way to unleash it and possibly load other programs (non-RT) programs some way. We know the official MS word is no, but it seems to me it is a fully capable Win8 machine that just has some goierners on it and limited processing power, just waiting to be cracked.
Am I just dreaming?
I would love to see this happen. The one thing holding me back from purchasing one. I'd love a Windows 8 Pro version tablet at the Surface RT pricing but wouldn't we all...
I dont think rt can run x86 app properly. Because the cpu is not as good as x86 core. I am interested in porting rt to compatiable device such as tergra 2 and 3 pad.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda app-developers app
liu2002 said:
I dont think rt can run x86 app properly. Because the cpu is not as good as x86 core. I am interested in porting rt to compatiable device such as tergra 2 and 3 pad.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think it's necessarily about the Tegra being "as good" as an x86 - the issue is that you'd need an emulator, or the source for the x86 app which you'd then need to re-compile for ARM. I believe MS made a developer toolkit available that allows simpler conversion from x86 to ARM but it's still up to the app vendors to do it.
In theory, the same code could compile for both x86/64 and ARM (RT), but VS2012 will not allow you to compile an ARM desktop app. There is no legit way to write/compile a desktop app on RT. Its an arbitrary BS limitation put in place by MS. You cannot side load apps, everything must come through the MS store, RT enterprise being an exception... which doesn't help us. And the MS store will only offer Metro apps. MS office shows that's desktop apps are fully possible, albeit recoded/recompiled for ARM, but MS will not allow it. In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Skitals said:
In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do you say that?
Because its not allowed, only metro style apps published through the app store are allowed. Even if you compile compatible desktop software, the OS won't run it. Its a closed sandbox.
At best we can hope for a "homebrew" community to compile open source software, and find some hacks to get it running.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Hello,
I’m a happy owner of the Surface RT and I just wanted to add my 2c.
I think that Metro UI is great for tablet, but lacks apps !
So I cannot understand why Microsoft didn’t include .Net on this platform ! I think the main goal and the first “Homebrew” must be recompilation of Mono for ARM. As this will allow us develop a lot of programs, quickly and using “good” tools (Visual )
I just started to study WinRT and I’m already hitting a lot of blocks (For instance, I cannot find a way to open Shared Socket ! So if any other app listen on 1900 port, I lose my SSDP discovery... )
But I think recompilation of Mono is definitely a way to go ! I think i’ll try it this week-end, if I have some time, but It’s sure I will not be able install on my surface As for now it seems to be impossible to enter Testing Mode on it.
Jurion
jurion said:
So I cannot understand why Microsoft didn’t include .Net on this platform !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think people seem to be missing something here (well, not just here, on other threads/forums.blogs too). MS have essentially (it’s really quite impressive) ported over the entire Windows OS to run on ARM – and this includes all of .NET v4 with supporting libraries/DLLs.
You only have to pop to C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319 on your Surface RT to see – all the same libraries for the same version of .NET a x86 desktop seem to be there - including Linq, SQL, reflection etc.
Now, this could be really great news! I’d bet that it would be entirely possible for standard .NET applications (by standard, I mean programs that only use managed code and nothing legacy) to be reasonably easily recompiled to run on ARM - ideally as easyily as changing a drop-down!
Furthermore, this is all supported in Visual Studio, it’s just locked down a bit - I’ve been able to compile, with VS2012 (and a minor tweak to remove the ARM compile block) a simple command line EXE for ARM (using .NET calls – though only in C++ which is a shame). The problem is, as soon I open it on Surface, I get an error saying the ‘digital certificate’ couldn't be validated – a common issue which has a simple fix documented online. The catch... that the instructions to remove this block don’t work with secure boot enabled, and - at present - we can’t disable this on the Surface (on normal PCs this can be turned off in the bios).
So – the key to all this, is for MS to open it up (not impossible, but who knows if or when) or for someone to get round this secure boot/certificate requirement. I’m sure there’s some smart people on here with abilities to work on, and hopefully succeed in doing this. Even if people aren't able to work a way round this block, I'm hopefully that eventually MS may release some firmware update tools that someone can hack to switch off UEFI secure boot. Or perhaps someone at MS or a partner may leak some file/app/boot that unlocks this for dev/enterprise purposes.
I look forward to it happening!
T
Skitals said:
In theory, the same code could compile for both x86/64 and ARM (RT), but VS2012 will not allow you to compile an ARM desktop app. There is no legit way to write/compile a desktop app on RT. Its an arbitrary BS limitation put in place by MS. You cannot side load apps, everything must come through the MS store, RT enterprise being an exception... which doesn't help us. And the MS store will only offer Metro apps. MS office shows that's desktop apps are fully possible, albeit recoded/recompiled for ARM, but MS will not allow it. In an ideal world, RT would be a fully supported OS, and the likes of Adobe and others could release desktop apps for RT, but sadly it won't happen.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything doesn't have to come through the MS store, you can install applications that you build in Visual Studio 2012 for Windows Store, create an appx package and choose not to publish it in Windows Store. VS2012 then creates an appx package as well as a PowerShell script that you can run on Surface, accept security warning, get the developer's license on the device (it's free) and that's it!
It is fairly obvious why MS does not allow installation of "Desktop" apps on ARM tablets. Otherwise dev's would get lazy and just recompile desktop apps for ARM. The experience on a touch tablet would not be great on (unmodified) Desktop apps, hence Microsoft set this constraint on Windows RT in order to push dev's towards making a proper touch friendly app. The result is of course the lack of apps initially, but in the long run the benefits will be a greater experience as the apps would be optimized for touch.
Sure there are obvious downsides to this strategy, but the decision itself makes a lot of sense from a useability standpoint. You already read the complaints in reviews about "Office" not being Metro-style and unfriendly to touch. However this is naturally a decision due to time constraints, because MS would have also preferred to not include a desktop on RT. Office is the selling point now, to gravitate people towards RT and when there is enough demand, the touch friendly (Metro) apps will flow in eventually
Backflipping said:
I think people seem to be missing something here (well, not just here, on other threads/forums.blogs too). MS have essentially (it’s really quite impressive) ported over the entire Windows OS to run on ARM – and this includes all of .NET v4 with supporting libraries/DLLs.
You only have to pop to C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319 on your Surface RT to see – all the same libraries for the same version of .NET a x86 desktop seem to be there - including Linq, SQL, reflection etc.
Now, this could be really great news! I’d bet that it would be entirely possible for standard .NET applications (by standard, I mean programs that only use managed code and nothing legacy) to be reasonably easily recompiled to run on ARM - ideally as easyily as changing a drop-down!
Furthermore, this is all supported in Visual Studio, it’s just locked down a bit - I’ve been able to compile, with VS2012 (and a minor tweak to remove the ARM compile block) a simple command line EXE for ARM (using .NET calls – though only in C++ which is a shame). The problem is, as soon I open it on Surface, I get an error saying the ‘digital certificate’ couldn't be validated – a common issue which has a simple fix documented online. The catch... that the instructions to remove this block don’t work with secure boot enabled, and - at present - we can’t disable this on the Surface (on normal PCs this can be turned off in the bios).
So – the key to all this, is for MS to open it up (not impossible, but who knows if or when) or for someone to get round this secure boot/certificate requirement. I’m sure there’s some smart people on here with abilities to work on, and hopefully succeed in doing this. Even if people aren't able to work a way round this block, I'm hopefully that eventually MS may release some firmware update tools that someone can hack to switch off UEFI secure boot. Or perhaps someone at MS or a partner may leak some file/app/boot that unlocks this for dev/enterprise purposes.
I look forward to it happening!
T
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm, sorry my bad, didn't look enougth to find .Net assemblies.
As for open it for MS, may be, maaaay be it's the same scheme which they followed with Windows Phone 7.
No native developpment for 7.0 -- 7.8
But they open it for 8.0
May be they just want to force people developp Metro app to populate the store first.
So where's the best place to get one?
I'm looking into buying one very very soon, I found some on ebay for $585 with the cover, That sounds like a win to me. I wish QVC had it, That'd be lovely.
I'm praying we get a work around for all this, But still If the device isn't made for it, I can't be mad that it doesn't do it, That's like being angry that my car doesn't fly.
But it's such a tease, it worries me that I'll have an entire desktop, Sitting, Obselete, With nothing but Office, which I wont even use.
Can't_Live_Without_My_Evo said:
I'm looking into buying one very very soon, I found some on ebay for $585 with the cover, That sounds like a win to me. I wish QVC had it, That'd be lovely.
I'm praying we get a work around for all this, But still If the device isn't made for it, I can't be mad that it doesn't do it, That's like being angry that my car doesn't fly.
But it's such a tease, it worries me that I'll have an entire desktop, Sitting, Obselete, With nothing but Office, which I wont even use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is made for it. It has the full desktop, and the full desktop Office suite. Its a big tease. The whole "do more" campaign advertises you can "click in" and have full laptop productivity with touchpad and mouse/keyboard. Except the only software to take advantage of it is desktop IE and Office.
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Hey everyone. Looking at trying to pickup a Surface RT during the black friday sale. I primarily want to use it for taking notes in class. What do you all think of the original RT with the 8.1 update? Worth getting it, or should I spend my money on something else?
On a side note: It's between a Surface RT (at black friday prices), a chromebook, and the Nvidia Note 7. I can see the pros and cons of all the devices, but a) I am entrenched in google's ecosystem (gmail, google keep, google drive, google music, etc) and b) I am going to school for computer engineering.
So what do you all think?
Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk 4
It will work great for notes if you get the Type Cover, there is no active pen support. But it's not that great with Google services. You will have a much better experience using Outlook, OneNote och Skydrive with the Surface.
Sorry I'm not much help here, never used a chromebook nor the Nvidia =).
I used my RT for note taking for a few months before moving on to the pro model, and it was a pretty good experience. I would have a notes doc open in reader and copy/paste stuff from it into one note and type additional info in various combinations. If you are interested in using google docs on the RT, that may dissuade you, as it's quite laggy. I had no such issues just using the office software for that sort of thing. For google apps, the only workaround I really had to look for was a google voice app, the rest of what I use was just fine via browser and the built in mail app.
I ended up moving to a Pro due to a few limitations that I ran into:
- inability to run the e-testing software we use on the RT (lockdown browser and a security.exe file)
- desire to do more pen writing for some notes (really just chemical reactions and such, things that don't lend themselves to typing)
If you have a laptop as a backup for any software you need on your course then yeah. Chances are on a computer engineering course it will be useless for anything other than a glorified pen and paper replacement (as would the other 2 choices).
As long as you are ok using Google Apps in a browser only, an RT can work well enough (I can't comment on the rest of your use cases). My employer uses Google Apps for Education as our primary email so I've done it. If a jailbreak is released for RT 8.1 I am curious how well (or not) Outlook RT will work with gmail, especially since I won't be able to run the sync software Windows 7 and previous could (I don't know if it works with Windows 8).
domboy said:
As long as you are ok using Google Apps in a browser only, an RT can work well enough (I can't comment on the rest of your use cases). My employer uses Google Apps for Education as our primary email so I've done it. If a jailbreak is released for RT 8.1 I am curious how well (or not) Outlook RT will work with gmail, especially since I won't be able to run the sync software Windows 7 and previous could (I don't know if it works with Windows 8).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have always been able to add IMAP accounts in outlook and GMail offers full IMAP support.
MS Office can save in open document formats (ODT instead of doc/docx etc). Google docs also use these formats under the hood or can at least attempt (albeit poorly) to import .doc and .docx etc anyway. Could certainly download your file, open it in MS Office, save it in open office formats, re-upload to google drive. In my experience MS Word outputting to ODT works better than google docs or libre office importing DOC and DOCX
SixSixSevenSeven said:
If you have a laptop as a backup for any software you need on your course then yeah. Chances are on a computer engineering course it will be useless for anything other than a glorified pen and paper replacement (as would the other 2 choices).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My original plan was chrome book + chrome remote desktop to my gaming PC at home, but the surface and tegra note 7 wouldn't provide that. Then again, the surface is a bit stronger in the notes department and portability, and the tegra note would excel at math notes (its a math and physics heavy degree)
Unfortunately, my budget is very limiting, and I cannot get multiple devices. I have an old netbook loaded with my sata2 ssd, and mint Linux right now, but the performance is meh, and the resolution is abysmal...
My desktop should suffice for specialized software, but I am really needing a device for notes (I write slow, but type fast, at least with a real keyboard).
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
bluefalcon13 said:
My original plan was chrome book + chrome remote desktop to my gaming PC at home, but the surface and tegra note 7 wouldn't provide that. Then again, the surface is a bit stronger in the notes department and portability, and the tegra note would excel at math notes (its a math and physics heavy degree)
Unfortunately, my budget is very limiting, and I cannot get multiple devices. I have an old netbook loaded with my sata2 ssd, and mint Linux right now, but the performance is meh, and the resolution is abysmal...
My desktop should suffice for specialized software, but I am really needing a device for notes (I write slow, but type fast, at least with a real keyboard).
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surface would do remote desktop just fine. Windows RT being a near straight port of windows 8 to ARM (minus the desktop lockdown) does include RDP support which is the default windows remote desktop software, although there are 3rd party RDP servers for OSX and linux too. RDP is very effective.
You also have VNC as an alternative to RDP. There are VNC clients and servers for most major platforms including android and jailbroken windows RT devices (this does limit to windows RT 8.0, although looks like the 8.1 jailbreak isnt far off).
Although in all honesty. I wouldnt rely on remote desktop access.
Will you be returning home each day and can you also use the machines at university? You may be able to get away without bringing your own full x86 machine. Otherwise I would seriously be considering a laptop or x86 windows tablet. There is the ASUS T100 for £350 which is a windows 8.1 10" tablet with a proper keyboard docking option too and using intel bay trail, but at £350 you can get a laptop with a bigger screen (also important) which is morepowerful too.
There are people on my course that bring surface RT's (and a few pro's too) and take notes in lectures, but they all end up fighting for lab computers the rest of the time and I dont think you can rely on remote desktop always being available or having a low enough latency, not to mention some university or college firewalls blocking it.