What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Myriachan said:
What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The biggest challenge would be loading Linux and getting it not to panic immediately.
Other than that, there are tegra drivers available, but I seem to recall that the OEMs customize certain aspects, such as memory mappings, that we'd either have to reverse engineer from Windows or just straight up guess on.
netham45 said:
The biggest challenge would be loading Linux and getting it not to panic immediately.
Other than that, there are tegra drivers available, but I seem to recall that the OEMs customize certain aspects, such as memory mappings, that we'd either have to reverse engineer from Windows or just straight up guess on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think another hard part would be implementing some sort of way to capture the output of Linux's console once the NT kernel is gone.
I don't think that getting the memory mappings would actually be too difficult, if we know the devices.
Myriachan said:
What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NVidia have a full linux for tegra project. They like OEMs to keep the devices similar to an extent I think. You can buy tegra dev boards as a consumer (although they have ridiculous prices).
Much of the surface hardware interfaces via i2c as per the microsoft windows 8 hardware guidelines. UART usage is not allowed so much in Windows 8 for internal devices but the tegra does have quite a few UARTS and I presume bare minimum 1 of them is accessible externally, question is how or where. Quite a few methods have been used on phones for adding external serial access, but who knows where it would be on the RT, would take some very intimate PCB tracing to work out where the hell it is if it is there. Common ones I have seen have been a specific resistor value used on the sense line for a USB-OTG adaptor to then trigger a pinmux to swap USB D+ and D- for a serial Tx and Rx, any other value would then trigger the USB host function as you would expect such a cable to do. Same has been done on the nexus 4 between the microphone and ground pins on the audio jack. iPhones and I think the galaxy tabs have them in their regular plug (well, all iOS devices with a 30 pin connector rather than lightning, galaxy tabs also have their own large pin count connector instead of a microUSB).
The RT, well the external keyboard connector is 6 pins. Keyboard, mouse and accelerometer all interface via the i2c bus which is 2 pins (SDA, SCL), all comms need a ground and a VCC connection of some sort is required. thats 4 pins accounted for. For some reason though 1 of the pins isn't connected within the tablet itself, so there are only actually 5 pins. Could the 5th be a sense line?
Android on RT, well, android is linux kernel based. So start with linux on RT and your probably most of the way there. Once your that far you might aswell get a "regular" linux distro on there, if you had full hardware support and were to run lets say ubuntu (for simplicities sake) you probably have a device far more useful than Windows RT now that you are free of the RT limitations
Oh, android kernel sources for several tegra devices are available too I think.
But I am guessing the biggest obstacle is getting the RT to even attempt to boot a linux kernel.
---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
Oh, anyone really interested in whats under the hood of that chip: https://developer.nvidia.com/tegra-3-technical-reference-manual
Display might cause a slight issue. Tegra has both DSI and LDVS display support. Which one is the Surface using is unknown. If I had to hazard a guess, I would wager the surface uses DSI. Mostly because it has an HDMI output, the tegra does not support HDMI output natively, however converting a set of LDVS signals to HDMI (and vice versa) are relatively straight forward compared to DSI. You can get DSI screens in the RT's size, so I would guess they use DSI for the screen and LDVS with an adaptor for the HDMI, or if someone was testing the display output of the RT, you could just presume its LDVS for instance and simply connect the RT to a display as it boots linux and see whether the internal or external displays come on first I guess, or device manager in windows might shed some light (or it might not).
There is PCIe in there, wouldnt surprise me if they use it for networking. I dont see anything else suited to the task particularly (outside of special use cases, SPI is often used for an arduino for example, but at the same time it isnt streaming youtube in 1080p).
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Actually they are having a sale right now. In korea atleast. 310,000krw (approx US$277) for a 32gb surface and touch cover..
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
This may sound dumb but, wouldn't it be simpler to drop linux from android and run android natively on windows? Just like normal software in fullscreen.
After all, android is a shell ontop of an OS.
These guys did it on x86 (Surface Pro): http://windroy.com/
ScRePt said:
This may sound dumb but, wouldn't it be simpler to drop linux from android and run android natively on windows? Just like normal software in fullscreen.
After all, android is a shell ontop of an OS.
These guys did it on x86 (Surface Pro): http://windroy.com/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are not first to do so. Bluestacks and JarOfBeans.
Android mostly consists of the dalvik virtual machine and a few libraries, its a complex project though and it does rely heavily on linux capabilities, I think Bluestacks uses cygwin extensively, which isnt available for RT and is very complex itself.
Its actually incredibly difficult to do what you propose. It might actually be simpler to get the linux kernel booting, besides, the linux kernel on an RT device would be more useful in the long term as it would open the door to running Ubuntu or something on the device.
I referred windroy because I am quite amazed of it's speed.
I thought they just wrapped the linux calls to call the winapi and thus it seemed simpler than porting a whole OS
@ threadstarter:
just buy a nexus tablet if you are in android THAT much.
The idea is to have both Windows and Android... there's no ARM tablet that can currently do that. Besides, "put Linux on it" is a time-honored hacking tradition. It doesn't even need to be practical, really. Myriachan has already done some very cool work for the community, too... https://twitter.com/Myriachan/statuses/365350790803619840
unbenannt said:
@ threadstarter:
just buy a nexus tablet if you are in android THAT much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure if you realise who the thread starter was. One of the people who works on jailbreaking the RT and porting applications in the first place, not some random noob saying "herpa I want android derpa".
Its almost unwritten law that when a new device comes out, someone needs to get linux booting on it. Someone has even booted linux on an 8bit AVR microcontroller (AtMega328 specifically I think, although technically they cheated by wiring an actual RAM DIMM module to it and an SD card and then hand writing an ARM emulator which then loaded a linux for ARM port up, took a few hours to boot actually ). Chumbys, DVD set top boxes, phones, watches, anything including the nexus tablet actually https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation. NEEDS LINUX.
Anyway. If you could boot linux on it then an RT tablet then to many people it would become instantly more usable, its actually the sort of thing that would make me interested in using my 10% off voucher for one.
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, Microsoft just sold 10,000 RT devices on their "manufacturer_certified" eBay account at firesale prices.
about 7,500 Surface RT 32GB with touch cover sold for $199.
and 2,500 Surface RT 64GB sold at $199
I picked up one at this price, obviously a lot of others did as well.
brad1825 said:
Well, Microsoft just sold 10,000 RT devices on their "manufacturer_certified" eBay account at firesale prices.
about 7,500 Surface RT 32GB with touch cover sold for $199.
and 2,500 Surface RT 64GB sold at $199
I picked up one at this price, obviously a lot of others did as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm. Any link to show where you got the figures?
If they indeed sold 10k RT devices, this could bring a boost to the RT dev environment.
my surface is perfect, no hacking needed. does 99% of wat a tablet should do. perfectly
spaco22 said:
my surface is perfect, no hacking needed. does 99% of wat a tablet should do. perfectly
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good for you, you really needed to post that? This thread is here for those where the tablet does not do what it should do for some users...
This thing is practically doing a touchpad style firesale for black friday. The hardware is nice for the $200 price point, but I won't bother getting one unless there's a decent chance of an Android port (RT is useless.)
Any work towards that end since this thread died off?
Rakeesh_j said:
This thing is practically doing a touchpad style firesale for black friday. The hardware is nice for the $200 price point, but I won't bother getting one unless there's a decent chance of an Android port (RT is useless.)
Any work towards that end since this thread died off?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for that, but in my opinion Android on a tablet is useless...! Except of the case you want many useless apps and games on your tablet...
On RT you have much more opportunities e.g. full USB support full working Office and much more!!!
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fire sales have begun! Hoping to pick mine up on Black Friday!
http://www.microcenter.com/product/412706/Surface_RT_32GB_with_Black_Touch_Cover
lambstone said:
MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't be so sure about that.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/26/microsoft-kill-windows-rt-larson-green
http://www.geek.com/microsoft/windo...according-to-microsofts-devices-lead-1578243/
MisterKrispy said:
Fire sales have begun! Hoping to pick mine up on Black Friday!
http://www.microcenter.com/product/412706/Surface_RT_32GB_with_Black_Touch_Cover
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
$179.99 seems about right for standing out in the cold.
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not for long.
Related
i wonder if this could run on Gtablet.. Lol. D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I&feature=player_embedded
amazing UI..
but i'm still loyal to android.. D its an OS WAR on 2012 ,
iOS 5, Google Icecream Android, Windows 8..
That looks like a hell of a lot of processing power for a mobile device.
well tegra 3 is on the way...
boltgd said:
well tegra 3 is on the way...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But it's not compatible with windows.
Eh. Its a Mickeysoft product. Overpromise, Overhype, and Underwhelm. There are promised features from Vista that have yet to be developed and introduced. So I am not gonna hold my breath.
yeah they have a lot of work to do.. since the release is way too far ahead, 2012.. i guess ICEcream won't give up easily with this kind of UI..
Impress us GOOGLE.. your'e still my bet.. LOL
juntunen said:
Eh. Its a Mickeysoft product. Overpromise, Overhype, and Underwhelm. There are promised features from Vista that have yet to be developed and introduced. So I am not gonna hold my breath.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What features, exactly, are you referencing? I only ask because I have been Alpha and Beta testing MS operating systems for almost 20 years.
And why on earth would they work to introduce features on an OS that was replaced by a better one only about a year after release (thank god)?
Kind of like saying "when is Android 1.6 going to support HTML5?" Not going to happen because Android 2 added that support.
Maybe you should hold your breath.
That actually looks pretty amazing, Google has some work to do, they are the modern day version of the old Microsoft with the bugs and such, seems the new Microsoft has figured out that making it work is more important, so now google ditch the Linux kernel and find your own way. I am an Android fan and a GTab owner, but I have to say I hate tinkering with this thing and would rather it wake up and do what I want it to do, and do it consistently. I don't even mess with my GTab anymore, I hate to say it but I have reverted back to my iPad, simply it works consistently. Just my 2 cents.
goodintentions said:
But it's not compatible with windows.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Win 8 will be compatible with ARM processors.*
*Not official, but one of the demos of Win8 a few weeks ago was running on an ARM. Before you ask, the Tegra2 (and Tegra3) is an ARM processor.
scrantsj said:
Win 8 will be compatible with ARM processors.*
*Not official, but one of the demos of Win8 a few weeks ago was running on an ARM. Before you ask, the Tegra2 (and Tegra3) is an ARM processor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That could change everything then.
Android better get way better, way faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MnEndww2YQ&feature=player_embedded#t=0s
I am going to try to hold on to my G-Tablet until the Tegra 3 tablets are out. Should be able to put Win8 on it, maybe even dual boot Android.
I also saw a video somewhere of a Xoom running build 7955, and it ran really well. 1 ghz processor with 1 gb ram should be the system requirements for ARM and Tegra 2 chips. IOS is dead.
Honestly that ui looks like a windows phone to cartoony for me and childish. They really need to do something more innovative take ie9 for example just a down right copy of chrome ms is just worried about market share. Not to mention everything here lately from them has nothing but bloated kernels and fail coding.
Sent from my SGH-T959V using XDA App
Quote
I am going to try to hold on to my G-Tablet until the Tegra 3 tablets are out. Should be able to put Win8 on it, maybe even dual boot Android.
I also saw a video somewhere of a Xoom running build 7955, and it ran really well. 1 ghz processor with 1 gb ram should be the system requirements for ARM and Tegra 2 chips. IOS is dead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
speaking of dead... I saw a picture of Steve Jobs.. I didn't know he was gay.. I saw a pic of his 'man' having to hold him up as they took a picture of him... he looks like death.. so thin, looks so old... poor guy... well I guess Apple wasn't good to him after all...
IOS/SJ RIP together?
that could be possible that win 8 will run anywhere... the OS core is going to be cloud base, and while most devices run a java, or specialized VB, a simple modification to be able to get market share, why not? MS wants you... With the way WP7Mobile is, and how bad of a phone it is, MS has a bigger picture in mind... and they are a lion in waiting.... and with all ur data on a server that you may have to pay 4.95 (beginning charges on MS) Money is about to come back rolling in... and since cloud based... illegal apps are going to be difficult to run... just as they can turn off your development key in MS, they will be able to turn off your system from processing as they hold all the cards... so be ready... Apple is doing same for 2012. lets hope Android won't follow, although MS has a big stake in it... we shall see.
cmiuc said:
Quote
speaking of dead... I saw a picture of Steve Jobs.. I didn't know he was gay.. I saw a pic of his 'man' having to hold him up as they took a picture of him... he looks like death.. so thin, looks so old... poor guy... well I guess Apple wasn't good to him after all...
IOS/SJ RIP together?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I give him two months - not a slant on the man, but when you step down as the CEO of the most profitable company in the world, there's a reason behind it. And given how he looked in June, I suspect that the cancer is back and he's terminal. I feel very bad for him, and for his family.
juntunen said:
Eh. Its a Mickeysoft product. Overpromise, Overhype, and Underwhelm. There are promised features from Vista that have yet to be developed and introduced. So I am not gonna hold my breath.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
O O and U -- sounds like Android, to me.
I am looking forward to Windows 8, as I think both Google and Apple need a shot in the arm. My only concern is that MS has never done well in the mobile space. But they have surprised me with Windows 7 so maybe they can work their magic again.
Windows 8 Tablet Reach Developers Soon
Windows 8 tablet builds are rumored to be coming to developers as soon as this fall, so within the next 2-3 months, maybe even sooner. This means that a Windows 8 build is close to finish and Microsoft can expect to make a Windows 8 shipment sometime next summer in 2012. There is also a Microsoft Build event on September 13-16. The Anaheim California conference is focused on Windows hardware and software developers. Supposedly, it is expected to be Microsoft’s Windows 8 coming out party to get partners and OEM’s started on developing devices and apps for Windows 8.
Having said that, the issue for the tablet is not just performance but design. Apple junkies love the design, the apps, and the uniqueness of the product. It stands apart. While Microsoft may be able to make a competent and reliable product, can they make one that consumers will fall in love with?
The question comes up is what is the Quad Core processor that is supposed to run on tablets? That isn’t clear and running the tablet with a laptop processor wouldn’t be a good move since the battery life would be limited. Note, however, earlier this year three developers NVIDIA, Qualcomm, and Texas Instruments each announced quad-core mobile chips and announced that they’d arrive before the end of 2011. Nvidia is supposed to make an announcement soon about the state of a quad-core table. Nvidia, by the way, is an ARM chipmaker, which is the preferred Windows 8 OS chip of choice, (although x86 based chips will still be used).
Windows vs Android
cotangent05 said:
i wonder if this could run on Gtablet.. Lol. D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I&feature=player_embedded
amazing UI..
but i'm still loyal to android.. D its an OS WAR on 2012 ,
iOS 5, Google Icecream Android, Windows 8..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love my gTablet (and other tablets) and Android is really slick, but Android is to Windows like a toasteroven to a double oven with range and griddle. Android is made for a few functions and to be really small and compact. Again I love my tablet but it doesn't really do what my netbook does with ease. On the other hand, my netbook isn't as convenient or as much fun as my tablet.
That said, if you put my netbook with a slick, capacitive touch screen and it could do all the things my netbook can do - then wow! That would be very nice.
---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------
Gilpinreid said:
Windows 8 tablet builds are rumored to be coming to developers as soon as this fall, so within the next 2-3 months, maybe even sooner. This means that a Windows 8 build is close to finish and Microsoft can expect to make a Windows 8 shipment sometime next summer in 2012. There is also a Microsoft Build event on September 13-16. The Anaheim California conference is focused on Windows hardware and software developers. Supposedly, it is expected to be Microsoft’s Windows 8 coming out party to get partners and OEM’s started on developing devices and apps for Windows 8.
Having said that, the issue for the tablet is not just performance but design. Apple junkies love the design, the apps, and the uniqueness of the product. It stands apart. While Microsoft may be able to make a competent and reliable product, can they make one that consumers will fall in love with?
The question comes up is what is the Quad Core processor that is supposed to run on tablets? That isn’t clear and running the tablet with a laptop processor wouldn’t be a good move since the battery life would be limited. Note, however, earlier this year three developers NVIDIA, Qualcomm, and Texas Instruments each announced quad-core mobile chips and announced that they’d arrive before the end of 2011. Nvidia is supposed to make an announcement soon about the state of a quad-core table. Nvidia, by the way, is an ARM chipmaker, which is the preferred Windows 8 OS chip of choice, (although x86 based chips will still be used).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as power, I have to say my 160 GB netbook runs for over 6 hours on wifi and with pretty heavy use on a charge. The processor will/can be improved, I;m sure, but the biggest (and maybe only) issue is getting windows capabilities with a capacitive touch screen. The Atom at 1.6 is about the same capability as our Tegra2 at 1 - although I'm not sure about the video side of things.
If I were designing the new system I'd make it about the same size as the current netbooks with a keyboard that folds all the way behind kind of like the Pocket Edge, whenever you only wanted to use touch but could fold around like a netbook when you wanted to rest it on a counter or use the keyboard/trackstick.
Windows and mobile
I am looking forward to Windows 8, as I think both Google and Apple need a shot in the arm. My only concern is that MS has never done well in the mobile space. But they have surprised me with Windows 7 so maybe they can work their magic again.[/QUOTE]
I sure wouldn't want to counter anything you said as you're the king of the tablets as far as I can tell, but I think you're comment about MS (which is an opinion shared by many) is heavily influenced by very recent history I think. Up until the full blown development of the capacitive touch screen in the Apple phone Microsoft's Mobile OS was the preferred choice. I had an Axim 5 which did most everything we're talking about with tablets but with a lot less elegance and functionality. Microsoft was the first major manufacturer to advance touch screens in portable devices. I had a Fuji "tablet" computer years ago and it was pretty slick BUT it used a resistive touch screen which made touch features less than elegant.
What microsoft (and others) missed was the capacitive touch screen and how it changed the world. Apple had an early in to this technology since they first adopted it for their iPod controller wheel and that led to their incorporating it into the main display. Capacitive touch screens had been around a long time but they couldn't be controlled precisely until recently (can't remember the company who did it first but it was Apple's key supplier to iPod wheels). So in the blink of an eye the slickest Blackberry or windows smart phone looked crippled compared to the slick interface the multi-touch capacitive touch screen apple produced. Since then resistive screens have actually gotten pretty good, but the technology of choice is multi-touch capacitive.
I don't know if MS will do the Windows 8 with a trimmed down tablet version or not, or even if they do it, will they do it well. But, I do know they have many more engineers than Apple and a base kernel in Windows which is fabulous to build on. Heck if they just gave me that interface on my current netbook I would be thrilled.
Why Microsoft was so late to the mp3 player and why they let Mobile Windows falter is a mystery. I did have one MS engineer (proj mgr on Office at the time) told me they took their eye off the ball on mobile as they kind of looked to the entertainment (xBox) div to push that stuff and they just never got beyond game systems.
Microsoft also missed on the spreadsheet for many years and had a couple attempts which didn't cut it (multiplan was nifty but too hard to use) but when they came out with Excel they conquered. Same with Word. Same with console game boxes, and even to some extent with keyboards and mice and web cams.
You'd think I "liked" MS. I don't really. I much prefer Linux and the whole GPL scheme of things, but I give the devil her due. I use microsoft products every day and I have to say they do a terrific job. No other tech company I know of could match them on taking care of their past customers. That legacy in many ways has been a blessing and a curse. That said, I wouldn't count them out by any means and they will do very well in mobile/tablets when they embrace the touch interface. I'm not sure about phones. I've never really seen the vision of a phone-size computing device. To me a phone size is all about sync and media (photo, music, and light video media), and of course, phone. Tablet is your GPS, planner and organizer, newspaper and email, heavier duty mobile media consumption and phone (skype). Laptop is the primary working device to actually earn an income from, and the desktop is simply a legacy for all that stuff you still want to interface with and stream on your local network.
I think MS's mobile image was damaged quite a bit by them virtually abandoning Windows mobile, the low takeup of the Zune and the piling on of the apple community. That caused MS to go after a phone which was a disaster. In a nutshell there wasn't a failure of note until the iPhone in the middle of 2007 which has led (largely) to a remake of the MS image in this arena. They certainly deserve their lumps, but like you pointed out Win 7 was great and if they do get that interface they are showing on Win 8, watch they roar back in the mobile space.
I do wonder about another competing "app" development framework. It would have been nice to see that part of the interface somehow stick with the Android model. I'm sure MS will produce a free dev kit of some kind but that doesn't replace all the work for good developers to get up to speed.
After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources. Then we are back to the laptop mentality and model. Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets . I am curious if anybody has some insight from the developer community on what they are thinking of the Microsoft RT platform for small simple apps. Are most Android/Apple Devs thinking they will be able to port to RT easily and do they see promise with that platform. Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it. I am a musician and Apple owns that market due to low latency audio interface, and android has ignored that audio market entirely - Android has high latency, making it useless as an audio interface with no plans to pursue that market I understand there are also long term concerns that Android will continue, which seems to be why Google is getting more involved in the hardware side of things to hopefully sustain it.
Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Michael
guitar1969 said:
After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources. Then we are back to the laptop mentality and model. Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets . I am curious if anybody has some insight from the developer community on what they are thinking of the Microsoft RT platform for small simple apps. Are most Android/Apple Devs thinking they will be able to port to RT easily and do they see promise with that platform. Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it. I am a musician and Apple owns that market due to low latency audio interface, and android has ignored that audio market entirely - Android has high latency, making it useless as an audio interface with no plans to pursue that market I understand there are also long term concerns that Android will continue, which seems to be why Google is getting more involved in the hardware side of things to hopefully sustain it.
Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Michael
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android did it when Apple had all their apps...
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
guitar1969 said:
After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows RT will not run full blown x86 windows applications at the moment, just Modern UI (codenamed metro) applications with the exception of Office RT which is a desktop RT app planned to be included with Windows RT itself, it's unclear if Microsoft will eventually open up windows RT to allow 3rd party desktop apps but I doubt it.
guitar1969 said:
Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not believe most tablets (even apples) are instant* on from off, only instant on from standby, with between 8 seconds to a minute for cold boot, Windows 8 on PC's manages a cold boot(from power off to login screen) in less than 30 seconds on most PC's I believe(even my BIOS system's boot is farily quick with Windows 8).
guitar1969 said:
Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as far as I understand Windows RT's kernel is largely based on the NT kernel used in Windows 7 and 8, so probably uses a similar audio stack but I don't know if there are differences in the audio stack used in modern UI apps, keep in mind too that modern UI apps are intended to be compile once, run on Windows 8 x86-64 and Windows RT.[/QUOTE]
My windows 7 computer with an SSD cold boots in less than 30 seconds and I haven't tried Windows 8 on it yet. But my old ASUS T101MT boots in less than 1 minute on cold boot with Wondows 8 developer preview and it has a dated Imtel ATOM in it. If you think 1 minute is to long you must get pissed at your toaster on a frequent basis.
But I digress. People run and hide from microsoft innovation and jump on the bandwagon that it is cool to hate MS. Apple had awhile marketing campaign about it when Vista ws out and people were buying cheap PCs then running to Apple to blow 3x the amount on a MacBook.... :-/
Buy quality and get quality. I foresee SL8 owning the market, but iff (if and only if) people adopt. Android as a computing system is a joke. iOS was NOTHING until developers made it what it is and consumer demand and executive preferences push IT Pros to make it compatible in the workplace.
RT should be able to enter the marketplace without as many restrictions, it just needs to meet the fickle consumer who thinks quantities of useless garbage applications means better. It can solve those problems by persuading the developers of the top 100 app on android and iOS to cross migrate.
I am going to wait in line at the MS store for an RT Surface and buy a red keyboard and then flaunt it in all my iPad and Android tablet owning friends faces. Ha!
Sent from my mwp6985 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
>without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android.
This is a circular argument: "RT can't succeed if it can't have many apps, but it can't have many apps if it can't succeed." What you're arguing is for the status quo, that the big will keep getting bigger, and the small can't ever get big. If that were the case, MS would still be big, and Apple forever small.
Per above, RT does have the chicken-or-egg dilemmna in getting more apps. MS' solution is to leverage Win8's installed base to get Win devs to build RT apps, which would then benefit not only RT, but also WP8, since all three now share substantial commonality. That's the plan, anyway. We'll have to see the execution.
It's a long process--a few years--so don't expect RT to be an overnight success. This first release will be basically a public beta.
>Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Not that tough. Unless you're a dev or an early adopter, don't buy a first release of anything. That includes RT. Anybody who knows MS' track record would want to wait until the 3rd release. Let's be realistic, RT can turn out to be another Zune.
>it's unclear if Microsoft will eventually open up windows RT to allow 3rd party desktop apps but I doubt it.
It's clear if you ask the question: Can Metro UI handle all desktop computing tasks available? At this point, the answer is "no." Then it means the desktop will coexist with Metro for the foreseeable future.
The next question to ask is: What is RT's ace in competing against iPad and Android? Put differently, what can RT do that iPad/Android can't? One easy answer is that it can run (ported) desktop apps. Why? Because most RT tablets will have a keyboard & trackpad, per Surface RT's design direction.
So, yeah, I'm pretty confident desktop apps will be on RT. It's MS' ace. When you're behind, you have to be able to do something different than just following the leader's footsteps. MS can't out-app the iPad. It can't out-UI the iPad. It can't out-design the iPad. It has to make RT do something the iPad can't. Like, run desktop apps.
This is from the WinBeta site:
Microsoft's Windows Store has today been opened to all developers in 120 markets, which means a wider range of developers can start developing apps for the Windows 8 and Windows RT platform. The app store currently has over 1000 apps, which is an OK sum, but more the merrier?
There are over 1000 apps. And I would bet most main players are not going to miss the chance to jump on board.
120 countries can develop apps for their Language. This is a big bonus for windows 8.
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
ih8sense said:
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
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You bought a good tablet, mate. build quality and software is awesome, that's why u got interested in the first place.
On the other hand, will it get support?, i believe in time it will. My reasons is touch screen. Touch is the future, yes x86 apps already exist but they dont exist in touch. So the future being touch will revolutionize the existing apps for touch and this will make room for metro apps. And this is were rt will win.
Secondly the future is portable, x86 is not, rt is. Windows 8 is bridge to what will become sindows of the future, a touch only windows. Besides if MS fails in marketing RT, someone else will want a cut of the pie and market RT.
Lastly, modders will break this device before xmas, sideloading will b possible,emulation will happen and i foresee a future were android emulators will run on this beast. A lot will happen
RT has potential, surface may fail but RT will not cos its light weight and its future proof.
I think RT will not fail. PPL will wait till they see their lovely apps on it but they will come. Windows is used on more than 90% of the computers in the world. So I think its just a matter of time to developers finish and publish their apps. Even if winRT won't get as popular as win8, the code is almost the same which makes easy to publish the same app for Arm.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express
you know, the only pros of surface pro over surface IMO is the MKV support and 1080p screen.
2 things that made me return surface are
- lack of MKV support (which 90% of my movies are in mkv)
- low resolution. When i used it while lying down the bed, i tend to use it closer to my eyes than when i'm sitting down. The text doesn't look crisp and i can see pixels in the pictures.
If those 2 reasons won't bother you, surface is one hell of a tablet and for 499$, it's a steal. Remember that it's a tablet, apps would be optimized for touchscreen and you will have great mobility over laptop. The apps are pretty limited for now but i believe developers will start developing for it. I love the surface even though i return it.
I think that the biggest hurdle for Windows RT is the WinRT runtime. It's horribly gimped. I was honestly amazed at how god awful and stunted C# was in WinRT. It's almost as if they intentionally limited it for reasons only MS knows.
First off, Microsoft haven't announced a halving of orders. It is merely conjecture. What they have announced is support for Surface RT until 2017 though we dont know any details around this.
I dont think that Windows RT will be a big platform in the way that other lightweight OS's are - iOS and Android - but I do think it offers something unique. If you use tons of popular apps on other platforms, you will be disappointed in the Surface RT. If you live in a web browser, you will love Surface RT. I am not sure this will change unless those apps come for Windows 8 and can also be cross compiled for Windows RT.
If a 10" tablet is what you want and it fits your life, I see only 2 usable options - an iPad or a Surface RT. Android is awful on 10" tablets.
Sounds to me though that if you want the form factor the Surface brings, then Surface Pro might be more suitable, but I am not convinced it is a viable tablet as Windows desktop mode is horrible to use with touch.
quoted:
Sounds to me though that if you want the form factor the Surface brings, then Surface Pro might be more suitable, but I am not convinced it is a viable tablet as Windows desktop mode is horrible to use with touch.
pro =$1000, 4ish hour battery life.
no sales numbers released from rt.
ruh roh.
What about the Lenovo Twist? Windows 8 Pro, i5, 128gb SSD 12.5 touch screen and it is a tablet and laptop.. I returned my Surface and bought a Twist for $699 on BF.. Hoping it will do it all....
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
Got to agree with some of the above posts.
RT is the future of windows, it is the new NT, and some of us older users will remember how that was initially received...
The Surface RT is one helluva sexy tablet. In build quality, specs, and screen beauty it just is awesome. Really without software it is way ahead of the whole pack..... I played with it a long time....
But every time I interacted with the windows interface, there was just that familiar slow feeling. I am even now very serious about the Surface RT and am hotly debating buying it. But the software is just slightly underwhelming. I love the Metro interface, but not whats under it.
IF you do web browisng, games, movies and pics ONLY - this is an ABSOLUTELY must buy. The gorgeous experience is unbeatable. But the whole interaction at the windows level tends to wake me up from my dream. Having support for proper PowerPoint with HDMI ouput makes this a traveling presentation platform etc. But apps? apps? apps? You cannot entice people if the apps are missing - you cannot say " buy it now, I guarantee that apps are coming". It does not work with consumers. That it may lead to a slow down fro the Surface is one of my biggest fears.
On a tablet I browse the internet, listen to music, read books, email, and watch some sports. So by my own standard I should buy it. But Windows keeps me away...
One thing I do not agree about as said above - that windows desktop is not for touch. Using the touch laptops I find this to be quite intuitive, coming from a tablet world. Yes, on vertical screens one's hands can get tired to do a lot of touching - holding it up to the screen for extended periods. But I find it much more natural than trackpads - I hate trackpads, even Apple's "magic" trackpad ....
My 2 cents.... I need to decide if I just want a tablet, or a tablet that can double as a small laptop.
saryu said:
you know, the only pros of surface pro over surface IMO is the MKV support and 1080p screen.
2 things that made me return surface are
- lack of MKV support (which 90% of my movies are in mkv)
- low resolution. When i used it while lying down the bed, i tend to use it closer to my eyes than when i'm sitting down. The text doesn't look crisp and i can see pixels in the pictures.
If those 2 reasons won't bother you, surface is one hell of a tablet and for 499$, it's a steal. Remember that it's a tablet, apps would be optimized for touchscreen and you will have great mobility over laptop. The apps are pretty limited for now but i believe developers will start developing for it. I love the surface even though i return it.
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In less than a month after the release there are at least two applications tha support some mkv. They are still not perfect but it took developers more than a year to get the same result for the iPad.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
---------- Post added at 01:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------
Yes, I'm worry about the cut down the numbers of orders for RT reported by suppliers and Microsoft rushing to release the PRO version acting like it will be the saver.
http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-high-risk-behind-surface-pro.html#links
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
ctitanic said:
In less than a month after the release there are at least two applications tha support some mkv. They are still not perfect but it took developers more than a year to get the same result for the iPad.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
---------- Post added at 01:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------
Yes, I'm worry about the cut down the numbers of orders for RT reported by suppliers and Microsoft rushing to release the PRO version acting like it will be the saver.
http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-high-risk-behind-surface-pro.html#links
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
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After hearing the pricing of the pro and the battery limitations, I actually like my Surface RT more now. Unfortunately there is so much pressure for it to beat the IPAD that people write it off without giving it a chance . I like it more and more every day.
ih8sense said:
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It very depends on your propose, what you need for it.
for me, i do need a lot excel , ppt, word, and I tried do it on iPad, it sucks. I own a Macbook Air, but a bit trouble while checking something on street .....
After testing Surface for an hour, I love it. Of course if you looking for fun more than a working tab, its not a good choice at this moment as lack of apps support.
Just hope Chrome will come and get more apps soon , then will be the king of tablet im sure.
guitar1969 said:
After hearing the pricing of the pro and the battery limitations, I actually like my Surface RT more now. Unfortunately there is so much pressure for it to beat the IPAD that people write it off without giving it a chance . I like it more and more every day.
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I completely agree. I can't put the damn thing down! The browser experience is sensational. And Xbox music is phenomenally good! I mean free streaming music, albeit with fairly unobtrusive add support.
And as for apps you needn't worry. The company I work for has figured out that Windows 8 is going onto every budget laptop from here on out and the Windows 8 marketplace presents a great opportunity. As such are having their iOS & Android app ported to Win8 as we speak.
Also as another example the impetus to get into Windows 8/RT the VLC Player devs are going to the extreme of going to Kickstarter for funding to hire full time devs to get VLC Player into the Windows 8 marketplace as fast as possible... http://www.wpcentral.com/vlc-starts-kickstarter-windows-8-and-beyond-development-funding
So I sincerely believe the WINRT app catalogue will really take off.
Also, you know it's a good device when the missus is continually wanting it off you!
I agree with others... The RT has a good life to it. The problem IMO, is that people are holding out to see the Pro, then they'll decide.
Honestly I think people will end up with the RT over the Pro.
You just can't use a 10" screen for full desktop applications. It doesn't work.
Also, and this is big, the Pro is not using a Run Time system, that means you must shut it down when not in use, it will suspend instead of sleep, and it will go through battery like mad (they expect 4 hours max).
If you like how fast the Surface RT turns on, and how your e-mails, status updates, and calendar reminders are there, kiss that goodbye with the Pro. It is, for all intents and purposes, a PC in a thin form factor. An engineering marvel for sure, but I think people will expect it to be like the Surface RT, iPad, or Android tab just beefier. When they find out it isn't, I think RT sales will shoot up.
I also read somewhere that the Surface is not optimized to use all the 5 cores of the Tegra3 and it is still running crippled. I believe it came from Nvidia themselves. Once fixed, it should be more responsive. I hope so, because it does seem a bit slow in opening apps and such, although it is tolerable.
guitar1969 said:
I also read somewhere that the Surface is not optimized to use all the 5 cores of the Tegra3 and it is still running crippled. I believe it came from Nvidia themselves. Once fixed, it should be more responsive. I hope so, because it does seem a bit slow in opening apps and such, although it is tolerable.
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Microsoft will continue to optimise the base firmware of the device to improve performance. They've released one such update already and there will be plenty more to come.
Just look how far they've pushed the Xbox 360.
has anyone attempted building their own android (arm cpu) pc? i imagine it'll be a lot more flexible than what's on the market.
Yep and still working on it, see the links in the signature. I've a guide and a few scripts to make additional modifications easier.
I also saw you had a question on connecting a Bluetooth USB to Android TV box. Can you be a bit more specific and informative with your questions? Perhaps version numbers and other info to nerow down what hardware you're playing with and steps you've already tried. Likely it's a driver issue.
Sent from either my SPH-D700 or myTouch3Gs
Debian Kit/QEMU Linux Install guide for all android devices that I'm writing:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2240397
Now have working Installers for ARM Java 7 JDK + Maptools + jMonkey
I have never thought of. lol!
brookeaidan said:
I have never thought of. lol!
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Click to collapse
It works great for some uses and considering some of the good devices from a year or more ago are fairly cheep it's a low cost way of computing with some fun extras. Just picked up a replacement Epic 4G for less than $50 with shipping and it runs everything I throw at it... for the most part.
Just got a USB on the go (otg) adapter, now just saving up for the Y splitter and then I'll be able to plug a keypad and mouse into my epic, from there I'll be looking into cheep 10"+ screens and a way to power it all. From there it'll be easy to case it all into my old briefcase and have a portable PC made of an old cellphone that runs for days with the amount of left over space I may end up putting a bunch of them (cellphones) linked together so they'll share processing power.
Eventually all this will end up in the guide I've been writing and portable cloud servers will be an easy process to build and play with. I've been reading up on Openstack and a few others to try out.
If I get people backing me I may end up incorporating a projector into the mix and show how to set up a media center off the same set up. Which would allow for easy portable mass entertainment. I've been following developments in laser pico-projectors which aren't to expensive and have great battery life. Furthermore for testing / "proof of concept" I've an old DPL projector that requires a new bulb and USB to VGA adapter to play with what I'm planning.
By the end of this build the project should cost a few hundred dollars but should provide much in the way of new development in mobile computing applications and fun/entertainment for others.
Most of the parts are very cheep, less than $10, but a few are a bit spendy; devices off ebay <$70, keyboard and mouse <$50, USB adapters <$10 each, a larger screen is a bit variable but shouldn't cost more than $100 or a pico projector for around $200 for a variable screen size 5" to 100"
I've been working on the debugging and software side of things for sometime now only need a few more parts to make it all one unit.
Let me know if ya all want to help out or have design/feature requests
Sent from either my SPH-D700 or myTouch3Gs
Debian Kit/QEMU Linux Install guide for all android devices that I'm writing:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2240397
Now have working Installers for ARM Java 7 JDK + Maptools + jMonkey
I ran across this little article and I was thinking that when this option becomes available it may be applicable to the Surface. I was able to get a surface for free from a friend of mine who was having trouble charging it. I was there doing work on a laptop for her dad and she just told me I could have the tablet. I offered to try and repair it, and she just said to keep it. So, got the surface rt, blue keyboard, and a case. Come to find out that all that was bad was the charger. Some loose wires. I wasn't able to fix the charger, but I have a new one coming tomorrow. Now I have to come up something to do with this little tablet. Minecraft for the kids would be preferred. Everything else is fine on the tablet. So, a little curious to see how this Windows 10 ARM works and if it will work to put on the Surface RT. Especially, with the emulation built in.
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-not-windows-rt
lol x86 emulation isn't going to work on a Tegra 3. There has been work on porting Windows 10 IoT to the tablet but there is a lot to do like porting drivers and applications
fgghjjkll said:
lol x86 emulation isn't going to work on a Tegra 3. There has been work on porting Windows 10 IoT to the tablet but there is a lot to do like porting drivers and applications
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Click to collapse
Lol what. The old tegra hardware is perfectly capable from a hardware standpoint.
We already had working emulation on the surface RT... I played though all of fallout 1 on my surface RT.
https://hackaday.com/2013/02/18/running-x86-apps-on-windows-rt-devices/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
danthekilla said:
Lol what. The old tegra hardware is perfectly capable from a hardware standpoint.
We already had working emulation on the surface RT... I played though all of fallout 1 on my surface RT.
https://hackaday.com/2013/02/18/running-x86-apps-on-windows-rt-devices/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
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Click to collapse
The project is abandoned. Sorry.
There is this group working on Linux for the rt model surface units. https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_151267220466917&key=f0a7f91912ae2b52e0700f73990eb321&libId=jawsy41u01000n4o000DAwb2n09zf9zol&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.xda-developers.com%2Fsitesearch.php%3Fq%3Dwindows%2520surface%2520rt&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fq%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fforum.xda-developers.com%2Fwindows-8-rt%2Frt-development%2Fwip-secure-boot-linux-surface-rt-t3653848%26sa%3DU%26ved%3D0ahUKEwiEsrbTwPjXAhWD2YMKHQPXA48QFggMMAQ%26client%3Dinternal-uds-cse%26cx%3Dpartner-pub-2900107662879704%3A4763122713%26usg%3DAOvVaw09iZfaks4BIXZgVRFCfAIG&title=General%20Search&txt=%5BWIP%5D%20Secure%20Boot%20and%20Linux%20for%20%3Cb%3ESurface%20RT%3C%2Fb%3E%20%7C%20%3Cb%3EWindows%3C%2Fb%3E%208%2C%20RT%20...
puppychow said:
There is this group working on Linux for the rt model surface units. https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma... <b>Surface RT</b> | <b>Windows</b> 8, RT ...
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Click to collapse
Link isnt working
phoenixbennu said:
I ran across this little article and I was thinking that when this option becomes available it may be applicable to the Surface. I was able to get a surface for free from a friend of mine who was having trouble charging it. I was there doing work on a laptop for her dad and she just told me I could have the tablet. I offered to try and repair it, and she just said to keep it. So, got the surface rt, blue keyboard, and a case. Come to find out that all that was bad was the charger. Some loose wires. I wasn't able to fix the charger, but I have a new one coming tomorrow. Now I have to come up something to do with this little tablet. Minecraft for the kids would be preferred. Everything else is fine on the tablet. So, a little curious to see how this Windows 10 ARM works and if it will work to put on the Surface RT. Especially, with the emulation built in.
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-not-windows-rt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows 10 for Surface RT has been leaked.
Here is a link (follow the steps carefully)
https://forum.xda-developers.com/wi...face-rt-2-windows-10-arm32-step-step-t4107273