Related
UPDATE:
I wish I'd done some temperature benchmarking beforehand, but instead sourced the community to help out. Check out the various results on XDA... there are also results from two TF700 owners (in Europe) who were gracious enough to help me out.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=28051518
First, it seems clear that my mod really didn't mitigate the heat issue enough... so don't bother.
Second, comparing the numbers between other A700's and the TF700... well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion on that one. :-(
---
Hi all,
As many of you have experienced, the A700 can get very hot under certain conditions. Mine got extremely hot to the touch after just an hour of gaming (Heavy Gunner, NFL Flick QB, and Cut the Rope), and crashed 2 or 3 times.
Well I decided to do something about it. Reading through the Service Guide (thank you paugustin!!!) & A700 teardown photos from another site, I came to some conclusions. First, from the looks of things, the back panel has some kind of metal plate lining, and 3 "pads" that closed the gap between the metal plate and several surfaces of the mainboard. My hope was that these pads were not simply foam pads but were actual thermal pads. I guessed that a bit of thermal paste might help the efficiency of those thermal pads... and if I got really ambitious, I could replace the thermal pads with larger ones (and paste those too).
Service Guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1716922
I followed the instructions in the Service Guide & opened up my A700 earlier tonight. I'm pleased to report that as long as you take your time, it's super easy to open up.
And lo and behold, my conclusions were accurate... the back plate is copper and the pads were thermal pads!
Back Plate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/um556g6vtl7y99e/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-30.jpg
MainBoard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jka8gooiyqn9r2d/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-46.jpg
Closer Look @ the Thermal Pads:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0j4e7wjfodwryk9/C360_2012-06-26-20-15-06.jpg
I took some CPU thermal paste I had lying around & dabbed some on:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvv99k3ghx73a00/C360_2012-06-26-20-17-24.jpg
Afterwards, I slapped everything back together, fired up NFL Flick QB and played for a half hour. I'm pleased to report that the A700 got warm but nowhere near as hot as it did in my prior gaming session. The "level of warmth" was what I'd consider mildly warm, comparable to my fiancee's iPad3, so definitely within reasonable tolerances.
I still intend to put the A700 through some more intense gaming tomorrow, but I wanted to write this post up and share it with everyone first. Hope folks find this useful and insightful!
Nice discovery, but yikes! Thermal grease is meant to go on in a translucently thin layer or it ends up having the opposite effect! If you put that much between a CPU and it's cooler, you'd kill the CPU! :S
superawesome!
Yet still i'd like to wait for more people to evaluate the hardwaremodding before i go in there myself.
Still, kudos to you. :good:
FloatingFatMan said:
Nice discovery, but yikes! Thermal grease is meant to go on in a translucently thin layer or it ends up having the opposite effect! If you put that much between a CPU and it's cooler, you'd kill the CPU! :S
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except in this case, the thermal grease isn't going up directly against the CPU... it's going up against a thermal pad & large metal plate that is covering the entire mainboard.
Additionally, unlike a heatsink & CPU which are fitted together tightly, the back panel of the A700 & thermal pads do not contact anywhere near as tight to the mainboard plate. I fitted the two halves together, then pulled them apart again, to see how much the paste really spread out. This way I could better gauge how tight the contact was & remove any excess that got squished out. However, not much paste really did, telling me that the compression between the two isn't that great. That is why I'm toying with the idea of replacing the thermal pads entirely.
Hey, good stuff. Keep us in the loop on this....
Thicker thermal pads might be in order, or a better paste job under the plate on the CPU/GPU...
Bigger pads to spread the heat out more since the back looks to be one copper heat sink..
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g8/c487/list/p1/Thermal-Thermal_Pads_Tape.html
Beknatok said:
Hi all,
As many of you have experienced, the A700 can get very hot under certain conditions. Mine got extremely hot to the touch after just an hour of gaming (Heavy Gunner, NFL Flick QB, and Cut the Rope), and crashed 2 or 3 times.
Well I decided to do something about it. Reading through the Service Guide (thank you paugustin!!!) & A700 teardown photos from another site, I came to some conclusions. First, from the looks of things, the back panel has some kind of metal plate lining, and 3 "pads" that closed the gap between the metal plate and several surfaces of the mainboard. My hope was that these pads were not simply foam pads but were actual thermal pads. I guessed that a bit of thermal paste might help the efficiency of those thermal pads... and if I got really ambitious, I could replace the thermal pads with larger ones (and paste those too).
Service Guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1716922
I followed the instructions in the Service Guide & opened up my A700 earlier tonight. I'm pleased to report that as long as you take your time, it's super easy to open up.
And lo and behold, my conclusions were accurate... the back plate is copper and the pads were thermal pads!
Back Plate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/um556g6vtl7y99e/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-30.jpg
MainBoard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jka8gooiyqn9r2d/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-46.jpg
Closer Look @ the Thermal Pads:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0j4e7wjfodwryk9/C360_2012-06-26-20-15-06.jpg
I took some CPU thermal paste I had lying around & dabbed some on:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvv99k3ghx73a00/C360_2012-06-26-20-17-24.jpg
Afterwards, I slapped everything back together, fired up NFL Flick QB and played for a half hour. I'm pleased to report that the A700 got warm but nowhere near as hot as it did in my prior gaming session. The "level of warmth" was what I'd consider mildly warm, comparable to my fiancee's iPad3, so definitely within reasonable tolerances.
I still intend to put the A700 through some more intense gaming tomorrow, but I wanted to write this post up and share it with everyone first. Hope folks find this useful and insightful!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fantastic for the XDA community, but the average buyer will be like the cheesey pop group Power Station and will "Feel the heat".
rushless said:
Fantastic for the XDA community, but the average buyer will be like the cheesey pop group Power Station and will "Feel the heat".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then be happy that you're amongst the enlightened!
CAUTION!!!!!
OK maybe that's a bit strong, but as an engineer I have to question the logic employed.
First of all, the heat generated by the CPU, battery, etc. must exit the device. ALL OF IT!
Temperature of the back plate is determined by two factors alone: thermal resistance (e.g. insulation, heat pipes, air flow, fins, etc.) and the amount of heat transfer. I'm serious!
It appears that you have done nothing to affect the thermal resistance between the back plate and the air (e.g. adding cooling fins or increasing air flow). Therefore if your back plate temperature has decreased (and the air temp stayed the same), then we would conclude that heat transfer between the back plate and the air has DECREASED.
If hea
If heat transfer from the plate to the air has decreased, then that means the heat transfer from the CPU etc. to the plate must have decreased as well!
My guess is that your thermal paste is producing a higher thermal resistance, as predicted by FFM! And it's deceptive because it's insulating the back plate from the CPU etc.
So where's the heat going? (I hear myself asking... myself.)
My guess is that it's dissipating through the tablet, getting distributed and absorbed and ultimately emitted more uniformly from the device. This would raise the internal temperature of the device, including the CPU! Hence the CAUTION!!!!!
Your idea could have some benefit, though, and here's how i see it playing out:
If you decrease the thermal resistance between the CPU and the back plate, then the CPU would be closer to the temperature of the back plate (i.e. lower). But the back plate temperature won't really change because you still have the same total heat coming through and the same thermal resistance with the air.
As for spreading the temperature across the back plate more, I'm not sure you can do it more effectively than the copper plate that's already there. Not without insulating the most direct heat transfer path!
yeoldeusrename said:
CAUTION!!!!!
OK maybe that's a bit strong, but as an engineer I have to question the logic employed.
First of all, the heat generated by the CPU, battery, etc. must exit the device. ALL OF IT!
Temperature of the back plate is determined by two factors alone: thermal resistance (e.g. insulation, heat pipes, air flow, fins, etc.) and the amount of heat transfer. I'm serious!
It appears that you have done nothing to affect the thermal resistance between the back plate and the air (e.g. adding cooling fins or increasing air flow). Therefore if your back plate temperature has decreased (and the air temp stayed the same), then we would conclude that heat transfer between the back plate and the air has DECREASED.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I'm aware of this.
The exact problem I was attempting to mitigate, is the transfer of heat between the mainboard cover plate and the back panel copper plate. I was theorizing that the thermal pads being used were not fitted well, thus not functioning optimally as designed to begin with. As a result, not enough heat was being transfered to the back panel copper plate for proper dissipation.
So either heat is being transferred to the back copper plate more efficiently now and dissipating more effectively... or the opposite as you proposed.
However, if heat transfer has decreased, wouldn't heat buildup would still occur within the small area between the back panel & mainboard? While it wouldn't be absorbing the same amount of heat directly from the thermal pad, heat would still build up over time and that should still be noticable no matter what, right?
I'd also note that the BETTER solution would be to NOT combine thermal paste with the thermal pads, since as you point out, that can adversely affect thermal resistance.... but rather to replace the pads with better pads.
But I decided to be a guinea pig and try it out anyway.
Sorry I got distracted before posting my conclusion:
So my conclusion (prior to your latest comments) is that you can effectively lower the temperature of the CPU but not of the back plate. (unless you're insulating it from the CPU, which will spread the heat around and raise the temp of the internals!!!!).
I will consider your latest comments and repost!
The way I see it, the heat was not effectively transferred to the radiator. We have to remember that the case heat-up experienced by touch is not only the radiator, but the case itself heated by both the radiator and the air.
I'd assume that lack of crashes indicates smaller temperature of the CPU\GPU, as the heat is conducted more effectively by the paste to the radiator and dissipates evenly, instead of building up in one place and transferred to the case by air.
It's times like this, that highlights the one minor missing flaw of the A700... there's no bloody temperature sensors that we can poll!!!
*bashes head against desk*
So unfortunately, all findings are really subjective unless yeoldeusrename's conclusions are correct and mine are totally incorrect, and my A700 decides to fry itself.
Beknatok said:
It's times like this, that highlights the one minor missing flaw of the A700... there's no bloody temperature sensors that we can poll!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, i wouldn't be that sure. The A510 has them (at least separately for cpu and battery) and can be read by certain apps from the store. (E.g system tuner and battery monitor widget) so i would guess the A700 has them too.
Perhaps that helps
Sent from my A510 using xda app-developers app
mearoth said:
Well, i wouldn't be that sure. The A510 has them (at least separately for cpu and battery) and can be read by certain apps from the store. (E.g system tuner and battery monitor widget) so i would guess the A700 has them too.
Perhaps that helps
Sent from my A510 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The two apps I tried, didn't show anything for temperature, but I just grabbed system tuner & it does register cpu temp! Yay! Will explore the app further to figure out how to record history for accurate metrics. Thanks for the hint.
Sent from my A700 using Tapatalk 2
Beginning to wonder if the heat and touch issues are why the 700 is priced the exact same as the 510. Nothing else apparently makes sense.
Anyone who is tracking this thread & wouldn't mind helping gather some additional data, please check out this thread:
CPU Temp Benchmarking - Request for Help
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=28009068
Thanks!!!
I think I'm going to look into creating a heat shield to place against the rear cover.
2 to 3 inches across and 4 down on the right side should do it.
This is a great tablet otherwise and don't want to give up on it just yet.
Besides the Asus sound system is inferior.
Hi I had purchased a Galaxy Note 10.1 recently and have been playing around with it. A concern I had was that on the upper left backside of the device, below the silver plate on the white surface, the device feels warm compared to other areas of the tablet when using any apps. Is this normal or not?
m.sfm said:
Hi I had purchased a Galaxy Note 10.1 recently and have been playing around with it. A concern I had was that on the upper left backside of the device, below the silver plate on the white surface, the device feels warm compared to other areas of the tablet when using any apps. Is this normal or not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is close to the cpu same on mine
Hi erica, how long have you had your tablet? Has it ever really bothered you too?
"Feeling warm" is normal for anything with a modern CPU inside it. If you put your hand directly on the CPU (or the heatsink covering it) in a desktop or laptop computer you may burn your hand since it can reach huge temperatures of 60 degrees plus.
This review shows the Galaxy Note 10.1 to reach 45.9 C on one corner of the back when under maximum load:
The Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 had no issues regarding temperature. Even after long periods of full utilization during our stress test, the Galaxy Note did not become excessively warm. While the upper left corner exhibited slight hot spots on both the front and back side with temperatures of 45.9 degrees Celsius (115.6 degrees Fahrenheit), this temperature is still rather trivial considering the fact that our test was conducted on a hot summer day. During daily use, the surface temperatures of the tablet remained comfortably cool and under 33 degrees Celsius (91 degrees Fahrenheit) at every measurement location. The internal components showed no risk of overheating in any case and even the AC adapter barely warmed up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-10-1-GT-N8010-Tablet.80901.0.html
Since it's plastic, that'll never feel "hot", just warm.
You should rarely reach maximum load if you use well-behaved apps, though some games will tax it a bit. It's actually pretty amazing what processor power can be achieved in this thing without getting too hot or requiring a fan, thanks to the ARM architecture.
MercuryStar said:
"Feeling warm" is normal for anything with a modern CPU inside it. If you put your hand directly on the CPU (or the heatsink covering it) in a desktop or laptop computer you may burn your hand since it can reach huge temperatures of 60 degrees plus.
This review shows the Galaxy Note 10.1 to reach 45.9 C on one corner of the back when under maximum load:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-10-1-GT-N8010-Tablet.80901.0.html
Since it's plastic, that'll never feel "hot", just warm.
You should rarely reach maximum load if you use well-behaved apps, though some games will tax it a bit. It's actually pretty amazing what processor power can be achieved in this thing without getting too hot or requiring a fan, thanks to the ARM architecture.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So if the tablet reaches 52 C, thats alright? I really don't know specifics like this at all but would a tablet such as the asus tf700 feel the same way? I mean heat wise on a everyday medium load?
They actually get considerably warm being they are made out of aluminum. I had the tf201 and 700. It's not too hot though but you notice it
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda app-developers app
I am using system tuner to see the cpu temperature and I am getting high as 55 C. So I am in the green right? What is the highest the temperature can be and my tablet can still have a good lifespan?
A few things:
1. When I pointed out the review of this device that said it got to 45.9 degrees, that's the surface of the outside of the case. That's different to the CPU temperature, which will invariably be hotter.
2. Tools that report CPU temperature are invariably misleading. There are so many different ways to measure it that mean different things and sensors can be calibrated differently on different devices. I'd say leave it up to the engineers that built the tablet and trust that they built it to tolerate any heat it generates, which they will have had to.
3. Aluminium of the TF201 won't be getting warmer because it's aluminium, it'll just *feel* warmer because it's aluminium - even if it were the same temperature. It conducts heat to your body more efficiently as a metal. As a result, the case itself will actually help cool the tablet better, but don't go assuming this makes aluminium cases better - the engineers would have accounted for this in their thermal design, and we're not talking about all that much heat here anyway.
At any rate, this tablet doesn't get hot enough to worry about - far, far from it. The amount of warmth you feel is normal and in a tablet like this will never get close to approaching the heat required to reduce the CPU's life (unless something goes terribly wrong or you put it in an oven or something). It's not even worth worrying about. I'd worry more than in 3-5 years' time the battery capacity will have deteriorated to the point where it'll give you noticeably less battery life - because that will happen. If you're going to worry about overheating, worry about your laptop instead. If its little fan stops, is blocked or fills with dust, it is actually *quite likely* to overheat the CPU eventually - not that you're likely to notice, as the CPU will just throttle down.
Thanks for the useful info, now do i just delete this thread?
m.sfm said:
Thanks for the useful info, now do i just delete this thread?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why deny other people the chance to read these comments or contribute to the conversation? I myself put a fair bit of effort into my own comment!
m.sfm said:
Thanks for the useful info, now do i just delete this thread?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No but you can put solved in title so it can help future members.
Sent from my GT-N8013 using xda app-developers app
So its been about 2 days so far and the phone is awesome....BUT....not too impressed on the plastic material design.
Should I be too worried when theres like a heat wave with temps around 100 deg F???
Will the phone "warp" or "bend" or will the plastic melt a little?
Ok ok ok....of course, I will not leave it in the car during a heat wave...Of course I will not do that. But what if I walk around with the phone in my pocket. Will the phone warp or bend a bit during those kinds of temperatures?
Battery life is awesome!!!! Well, because I disabled Wifi, NFC, and all pretty much everything including GPS and for about 2 days now, battery level is still around 70%
But, I really dont like the material and I dont know how will this be impacted during a heat wave.
Whats your take on this to all?
Thx
lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
beaver2233 said:
lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The OP is asking a serious question.
Mine turned into ice cream in my pocket on a hot day. Had to throw my pants out. Phone was never seen again.
But seriously, no it won't melt or warp at those temperatures. Do plastics in your cart melt or warp on a hot day? Most likely not.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using xda premium
LOL???
Please, this is important to me as I love this phone and I am just afraid that it would be damaged during a heat wave or extreme hot temperatures.
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Just afraid that the screen or the phone would warp or bend.
Like I said, of course, I will NOT leave it inside a car during a hot day....But, I would like to carry it with me in my pocket.
Thx!
itsonlyme999 said:
LOL???
Please, this is important to me as I love this phone and I am just afraid that it would be damaged during a heat wave or extreme hot temperatures.
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Just afraid that the screen or the phone would warp or bend.
Like I said, of course, I will NOT leave it inside a car during a hot day....But, I would like to carry it with me in my pocket.
Thx!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just as the previous guy said, it wouldn't. If a phone actually does that on a hot day, I...I don't know what to say o_o
itsonlyme999 said:
LOL???
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure your phone will be fine, unless there's something you're not telling us. You don't by any chance live inside an active volcano, do you?
Every day for last 1 month was hot day here in India before the recent rains that cooled things down couple of days ago.
36-38°C was daily normal high. Did nothing to my 2 SGS4s.
It takes way higher than 100°F to melt or even soften the polycarbonate. My sister has spilled a piping hot coffee on SGS3 back which used similar material without any damage.
So no, 100F is nothing for these phones.
You will always have horror stories of people magically breaking their phones by doing nothing. Those few are there for every device. I have seen them in SGS3 forums, Note forums, HTC One forums and so on.
Those are not the norm. These phones are not the toys made to be used in nice temperate climate only.
THANKS !!!!!! For the quick help on this.
Makes me feel better now.
Don't worry, samsung qc usually already test usage in extreme temperature (-20 ~ 50 celcius). Even there is user youtube video for this test on s3.
Sent from my GT-I9300
Here in saudi Arabia the temperature is more than 55 Celsius degree and i don't have any problems with my phone...
Sent from my Samsung galaxy S4 I9505
You should have went for the HTC-One then...
Lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
I.m just about to get a new phone maybe today.. And I'm really stuck between the HTC One Mini and S4 Mini.
Even though the HTC specs are alittle less than S4 Mini, from youtube videos games seem to run good on HTC Mini if not better.
My main concern about this phone is the heat this phone produces. I like to play my 3D games, but I've heard that the phone can get quite hot, and another thread describes cracks appearing in plastic?
I plan to use a strong case with my phone, and am worried about my phone burning out or warping under the heat. I'm a HEAVY user.
Whats the heat like for you? Does everyone suffer from heat? Is it something to worry about?
I may choose S4 Mini if heat is going to be a problem.
Thank you in advance for your advice.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using xda premium
RuffBuster said:
I.m just about to get a new phone maybe today.. And I'm really stuck between the HTC One Mini and S4 Mini.
Even though the HTC specs are alittle less than S4 Mini, from youtube videos games seem to run good on HTC Mini if not better.
My main concern about this phone is the heat this phone produces. I like to play my 3D games, but I've heard that the phone can get quite hot, and another thread describes cracks appearing in plastic?
I plan to use a strong case with my phone, and am worried about my phone burning out or warping under the heat. I'm a HEAVY user.
Whats the heat like for you? Does everyone suffer from heat? Is it something
to worry about?
I may choose S4 Mini if heat its going to be a problem.
Thank you for your advice.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the real world they perform about the same unless you're a heavy user then the S4 Mini will get an edge in multitasking because of the extra 512 MB of memory, but you can always close a background app to speed things back up if it becomes a problem. I've been using my phone without a case for about a little over a month now and I don't have any cracks, but I do have a couple of scratches on my screen and on the glass covering the camera from light use even though it has Gorilla Glass 3. In the Gorilla Glass advertisements they scratch it with a key, stab it with a knife, slide a razor blade across the screen, and hit it with a rubber mallet and nothing happens, yet it scratches simply sliding in and out of your pocket. I've had the same problem with my Samsung Captivate and Motorola Atrix 4G so I think Gorilla Glass has always been a bunch of BS. The only time my phone gets warm is when I'm doing turn by turn navigation (screen on the entire time, GPS, 3G/4G) or if I've been using it for a while. I don't game on my phone so I can't comment on that. I'd suggest playing a demanding game at a local store for a little while and testing it out. The screen, speakers, camera, and feel on the One Mini is much nicer than the S4 in my opinion.
If you're looking for a mid-sized Android phone you might want to check out the Moto X. Even though it has a 4.7" screen it isn't much larger than the One Mini.
Someone else posted a similar thread which I replied to if you wanna check it out: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2472682
I prefer the HTC One so sorry if I'm somewhat biased.
I play some games on DrasticDS emulator, gets kinda warm tbh, but I'm usually bored by the time it happens and I stop playing
Had my phone 3 days now and loving it! Been playing all sorts of intensive games and haven't noticed any problems with heat. Yeah it can get warm now and then but with a metal back it's bound too, better at drawing heat away from your chips.
Sent from my HTC One mini using xda premium
Nexus 5 seems a powerful device. Fast CPU, big bright screen.
Are there any heating issues on normal use?
Does it cool fast?
Thanks for you opinions or metrics.
I hope it is improved over the Nexus 4. The N4 was unusually hot
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
this is something i'm interested to know as well. im thinking with the speaker/mic holes at the bottom, it will dissipate heat quicker, but I would love a confirmation.
its didn't get hot on general usage tested fifa 14 and real racing 3 it, i personally think, was on the hotter side of warm on the top half of the phone in like 3 minutes
Normal usage at the moment and it seems very cool, definitely on the lower end of 'warm' and miles better than the N4 in terms of heat
kojaraty said:
I hope it is improved over the Nexus 4. The N4 was unusually hot
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it wasn`t realy, it just felt hotter because the glass back tranferred heat more noiticebly.
gee2012 said:
No it wasn`t realy, it just felt hotter because the glass back tranferred heat more noiticebly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That and people installing custom kernels and doing things that causes them have higher battery drain.