UPDATE:
I wish I'd done some temperature benchmarking beforehand, but instead sourced the community to help out. Check out the various results on XDA... there are also results from two TF700 owners (in Europe) who were gracious enough to help me out.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=28051518
First, it seems clear that my mod really didn't mitigate the heat issue enough... so don't bother.
Second, comparing the numbers between other A700's and the TF700... well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion on that one. :-(
---
Hi all,
As many of you have experienced, the A700 can get very hot under certain conditions. Mine got extremely hot to the touch after just an hour of gaming (Heavy Gunner, NFL Flick QB, and Cut the Rope), and crashed 2 or 3 times.
Well I decided to do something about it. Reading through the Service Guide (thank you paugustin!!!) & A700 teardown photos from another site, I came to some conclusions. First, from the looks of things, the back panel has some kind of metal plate lining, and 3 "pads" that closed the gap between the metal plate and several surfaces of the mainboard. My hope was that these pads were not simply foam pads but were actual thermal pads. I guessed that a bit of thermal paste might help the efficiency of those thermal pads... and if I got really ambitious, I could replace the thermal pads with larger ones (and paste those too).
Service Guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1716922
I followed the instructions in the Service Guide & opened up my A700 earlier tonight. I'm pleased to report that as long as you take your time, it's super easy to open up.
And lo and behold, my conclusions were accurate... the back plate is copper and the pads were thermal pads!
Back Plate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/um556g6vtl7y99e/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-30.jpg
MainBoard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jka8gooiyqn9r2d/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-46.jpg
Closer Look @ the Thermal Pads:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0j4e7wjfodwryk9/C360_2012-06-26-20-15-06.jpg
I took some CPU thermal paste I had lying around & dabbed some on:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvv99k3ghx73a00/C360_2012-06-26-20-17-24.jpg
Afterwards, I slapped everything back together, fired up NFL Flick QB and played for a half hour. I'm pleased to report that the A700 got warm but nowhere near as hot as it did in my prior gaming session. The "level of warmth" was what I'd consider mildly warm, comparable to my fiancee's iPad3, so definitely within reasonable tolerances.
I still intend to put the A700 through some more intense gaming tomorrow, but I wanted to write this post up and share it with everyone first. Hope folks find this useful and insightful!
Nice discovery, but yikes! Thermal grease is meant to go on in a translucently thin layer or it ends up having the opposite effect! If you put that much between a CPU and it's cooler, you'd kill the CPU! :S
superawesome!
Yet still i'd like to wait for more people to evaluate the hardwaremodding before i go in there myself.
Still, kudos to you. :good:
FloatingFatMan said:
Nice discovery, but yikes! Thermal grease is meant to go on in a translucently thin layer or it ends up having the opposite effect! If you put that much between a CPU and it's cooler, you'd kill the CPU! :S
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except in this case, the thermal grease isn't going up directly against the CPU... it's going up against a thermal pad & large metal plate that is covering the entire mainboard.
Additionally, unlike a heatsink & CPU which are fitted together tightly, the back panel of the A700 & thermal pads do not contact anywhere near as tight to the mainboard plate. I fitted the two halves together, then pulled them apart again, to see how much the paste really spread out. This way I could better gauge how tight the contact was & remove any excess that got squished out. However, not much paste really did, telling me that the compression between the two isn't that great. That is why I'm toying with the idea of replacing the thermal pads entirely.
Hey, good stuff. Keep us in the loop on this....
Thicker thermal pads might be in order, or a better paste job under the plate on the CPU/GPU...
Bigger pads to spread the heat out more since the back looks to be one copper heat sink..
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g8/c487/list/p1/Thermal-Thermal_Pads_Tape.html
Beknatok said:
Hi all,
As many of you have experienced, the A700 can get very hot under certain conditions. Mine got extremely hot to the touch after just an hour of gaming (Heavy Gunner, NFL Flick QB, and Cut the Rope), and crashed 2 or 3 times.
Well I decided to do something about it. Reading through the Service Guide (thank you paugustin!!!) & A700 teardown photos from another site, I came to some conclusions. First, from the looks of things, the back panel has some kind of metal plate lining, and 3 "pads" that closed the gap between the metal plate and several surfaces of the mainboard. My hope was that these pads were not simply foam pads but were actual thermal pads. I guessed that a bit of thermal paste might help the efficiency of those thermal pads... and if I got really ambitious, I could replace the thermal pads with larger ones (and paste those too).
Service Guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1716922
I followed the instructions in the Service Guide & opened up my A700 earlier tonight. I'm pleased to report that as long as you take your time, it's super easy to open up.
And lo and behold, my conclusions were accurate... the back plate is copper and the pads were thermal pads!
Back Plate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/um556g6vtl7y99e/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-30.jpg
MainBoard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jka8gooiyqn9r2d/C360_2012-06-26-20-14-46.jpg
Closer Look @ the Thermal Pads:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0j4e7wjfodwryk9/C360_2012-06-26-20-15-06.jpg
I took some CPU thermal paste I had lying around & dabbed some on:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvv99k3ghx73a00/C360_2012-06-26-20-17-24.jpg
Afterwards, I slapped everything back together, fired up NFL Flick QB and played for a half hour. I'm pleased to report that the A700 got warm but nowhere near as hot as it did in my prior gaming session. The "level of warmth" was what I'd consider mildly warm, comparable to my fiancee's iPad3, so definitely within reasonable tolerances.
I still intend to put the A700 through some more intense gaming tomorrow, but I wanted to write this post up and share it with everyone first. Hope folks find this useful and insightful!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fantastic for the XDA community, but the average buyer will be like the cheesey pop group Power Station and will "Feel the heat".
rushless said:
Fantastic for the XDA community, but the average buyer will be like the cheesey pop group Power Station and will "Feel the heat".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then be happy that you're amongst the enlightened!
CAUTION!!!!!
OK maybe that's a bit strong, but as an engineer I have to question the logic employed.
First of all, the heat generated by the CPU, battery, etc. must exit the device. ALL OF IT!
Temperature of the back plate is determined by two factors alone: thermal resistance (e.g. insulation, heat pipes, air flow, fins, etc.) and the amount of heat transfer. I'm serious!
It appears that you have done nothing to affect the thermal resistance between the back plate and the air (e.g. adding cooling fins or increasing air flow). Therefore if your back plate temperature has decreased (and the air temp stayed the same), then we would conclude that heat transfer between the back plate and the air has DECREASED.
If hea
If heat transfer from the plate to the air has decreased, then that means the heat transfer from the CPU etc. to the plate must have decreased as well!
My guess is that your thermal paste is producing a higher thermal resistance, as predicted by FFM! And it's deceptive because it's insulating the back plate from the CPU etc.
So where's the heat going? (I hear myself asking... myself.)
My guess is that it's dissipating through the tablet, getting distributed and absorbed and ultimately emitted more uniformly from the device. This would raise the internal temperature of the device, including the CPU! Hence the CAUTION!!!!!
Your idea could have some benefit, though, and here's how i see it playing out:
If you decrease the thermal resistance between the CPU and the back plate, then the CPU would be closer to the temperature of the back plate (i.e. lower). But the back plate temperature won't really change because you still have the same total heat coming through and the same thermal resistance with the air.
As for spreading the temperature across the back plate more, I'm not sure you can do it more effectively than the copper plate that's already there. Not without insulating the most direct heat transfer path!
yeoldeusrename said:
CAUTION!!!!!
OK maybe that's a bit strong, but as an engineer I have to question the logic employed.
First of all, the heat generated by the CPU, battery, etc. must exit the device. ALL OF IT!
Temperature of the back plate is determined by two factors alone: thermal resistance (e.g. insulation, heat pipes, air flow, fins, etc.) and the amount of heat transfer. I'm serious!
It appears that you have done nothing to affect the thermal resistance between the back plate and the air (e.g. adding cooling fins or increasing air flow). Therefore if your back plate temperature has decreased (and the air temp stayed the same), then we would conclude that heat transfer between the back plate and the air has DECREASED.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I'm aware of this.
The exact problem I was attempting to mitigate, is the transfer of heat between the mainboard cover plate and the back panel copper plate. I was theorizing that the thermal pads being used were not fitted well, thus not functioning optimally as designed to begin with. As a result, not enough heat was being transfered to the back panel copper plate for proper dissipation.
So either heat is being transferred to the back copper plate more efficiently now and dissipating more effectively... or the opposite as you proposed.
However, if heat transfer has decreased, wouldn't heat buildup would still occur within the small area between the back panel & mainboard? While it wouldn't be absorbing the same amount of heat directly from the thermal pad, heat would still build up over time and that should still be noticable no matter what, right?
I'd also note that the BETTER solution would be to NOT combine thermal paste with the thermal pads, since as you point out, that can adversely affect thermal resistance.... but rather to replace the pads with better pads.
But I decided to be a guinea pig and try it out anyway.
Sorry I got distracted before posting my conclusion:
So my conclusion (prior to your latest comments) is that you can effectively lower the temperature of the CPU but not of the back plate. (unless you're insulating it from the CPU, which will spread the heat around and raise the temp of the internals!!!!).
I will consider your latest comments and repost!
The way I see it, the heat was not effectively transferred to the radiator. We have to remember that the case heat-up experienced by touch is not only the radiator, but the case itself heated by both the radiator and the air.
I'd assume that lack of crashes indicates smaller temperature of the CPU\GPU, as the heat is conducted more effectively by the paste to the radiator and dissipates evenly, instead of building up in one place and transferred to the case by air.
It's times like this, that highlights the one minor missing flaw of the A700... there's no bloody temperature sensors that we can poll!!!
*bashes head against desk*
So unfortunately, all findings are really subjective unless yeoldeusrename's conclusions are correct and mine are totally incorrect, and my A700 decides to fry itself.
Beknatok said:
It's times like this, that highlights the one minor missing flaw of the A700... there's no bloody temperature sensors that we can poll!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, i wouldn't be that sure. The A510 has them (at least separately for cpu and battery) and can be read by certain apps from the store. (E.g system tuner and battery monitor widget) so i would guess the A700 has them too.
Perhaps that helps
Sent from my A510 using xda app-developers app
mearoth said:
Well, i wouldn't be that sure. The A510 has them (at least separately for cpu and battery) and can be read by certain apps from the store. (E.g system tuner and battery monitor widget) so i would guess the A700 has them too.
Perhaps that helps
Sent from my A510 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The two apps I tried, didn't show anything for temperature, but I just grabbed system tuner & it does register cpu temp! Yay! Will explore the app further to figure out how to record history for accurate metrics. Thanks for the hint.
Sent from my A700 using Tapatalk 2
Beginning to wonder if the heat and touch issues are why the 700 is priced the exact same as the 510. Nothing else apparently makes sense.
Anyone who is tracking this thread & wouldn't mind helping gather some additional data, please check out this thread:
CPU Temp Benchmarking - Request for Help
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=28009068
Thanks!!!
I think I'm going to look into creating a heat shield to place against the rear cover.
2 to 3 inches across and 4 down on the right side should do it.
This is a great tablet otherwise and don't want to give up on it just yet.
Besides the Asus sound system is inferior.
So its been about 2 days so far and the phone is awesome....BUT....not too impressed on the plastic material design.
Should I be too worried when theres like a heat wave with temps around 100 deg F???
Will the phone "warp" or "bend" or will the plastic melt a little?
Ok ok ok....of course, I will not leave it in the car during a heat wave...Of course I will not do that. But what if I walk around with the phone in my pocket. Will the phone warp or bend a bit during those kinds of temperatures?
Battery life is awesome!!!! Well, because I disabled Wifi, NFC, and all pretty much everything including GPS and for about 2 days now, battery level is still around 70%
But, I really dont like the material and I dont know how will this be impacted during a heat wave.
Whats your take on this to all?
Thx
lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
beaver2233 said:
lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The OP is asking a serious question.
Mine turned into ice cream in my pocket on a hot day. Had to throw my pants out. Phone was never seen again.
But seriously, no it won't melt or warp at those temperatures. Do plastics in your cart melt or warp on a hot day? Most likely not.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using xda premium
LOL???
Please, this is important to me as I love this phone and I am just afraid that it would be damaged during a heat wave or extreme hot temperatures.
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Just afraid that the screen or the phone would warp or bend.
Like I said, of course, I will NOT leave it inside a car during a hot day....But, I would like to carry it with me in my pocket.
Thx!
itsonlyme999 said:
LOL???
Please, this is important to me as I love this phone and I am just afraid that it would be damaged during a heat wave or extreme hot temperatures.
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Just afraid that the screen or the phone would warp or bend.
Like I said, of course, I will NOT leave it inside a car during a hot day....But, I would like to carry it with me in my pocket.
Thx!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just as the previous guy said, it wouldn't. If a phone actually does that on a hot day, I...I don't know what to say o_o
itsonlyme999 said:
LOL???
So seriously....Can I take my phone outside during a heat wave with those kind of temperatures?
Even if its in my pocket?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure your phone will be fine, unless there's something you're not telling us. You don't by any chance live inside an active volcano, do you?
Every day for last 1 month was hot day here in India before the recent rains that cooled things down couple of days ago.
36-38°C was daily normal high. Did nothing to my 2 SGS4s.
It takes way higher than 100°F to melt or even soften the polycarbonate. My sister has spilled a piping hot coffee on SGS3 back which used similar material without any damage.
So no, 100F is nothing for these phones.
You will always have horror stories of people magically breaking their phones by doing nothing. Those few are there for every device. I have seen them in SGS3 forums, Note forums, HTC One forums and so on.
Those are not the norm. These phones are not the toys made to be used in nice temperate climate only.
THANKS !!!!!! For the quick help on this.
Makes me feel better now.
Don't worry, samsung qc usually already test usage in extreme temperature (-20 ~ 50 celcius). Even there is user youtube video for this test on s3.
Sent from my GT-I9300
Here in saudi Arabia the temperature is more than 55 Celsius degree and i don't have any problems with my phone...
Sent from my Samsung galaxy S4 I9505
You should have went for the HTC-One then...
Lol
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
While I was changing batteries after gaming, I found that the region where SDcard is inserted was hot. Other areas were relatively very less hot, a little warm.
definitely an issue. my friend's s3 also had some issues on his sdcard.
That area is much hotter than the other areas because that is where the CPU is located. Obviously when gaming the CPU gets very hot ~55-70*C so of course the heat is gonna dissipate into that area next to the SDcard
Also don't forget that the phone is very thin which means the hardware is placed by each other so when the CPU and gpu start throllting obviously it's going to start heating since the phone is thin and the hardware is bunched up together. It's normal.. just like when you have sex you get very sweaty because you and your mate are producing heat
That's indeed a very good analogy.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4
Lol nice logic OP
"my phone get hot around camera, must be camera that is causing it "
*facepalm*
Nexus 5 seems a powerful device. Fast CPU, big bright screen.
Are there any heating issues on normal use?
Does it cool fast?
Thanks for you opinions or metrics.
I hope it is improved over the Nexus 4. The N4 was unusually hot
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
this is something i'm interested to know as well. im thinking with the speaker/mic holes at the bottom, it will dissipate heat quicker, but I would love a confirmation.
its didn't get hot on general usage tested fifa 14 and real racing 3 it, i personally think, was on the hotter side of warm on the top half of the phone in like 3 minutes
Normal usage at the moment and it seems very cool, definitely on the lower end of 'warm' and miles better than the N4 in terms of heat
kojaraty said:
I hope it is improved over the Nexus 4. The N4 was unusually hot
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it wasn`t realy, it just felt hotter because the glass back tranferred heat more noiticebly.
gee2012 said:
No it wasn`t realy, it just felt hotter because the glass back tranferred heat more noiticebly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That and people installing custom kernels and doing things that causes them have higher battery drain.
The factory heatsing had thermal paste.
I got a new one from seller dince i had overheat problems at summer and i used thermal paste as well.
But the px6 is not flat. It has holes and such.
So i am wondering.
Maybe a thermal pad would be better than thermal paste? If it is what thickness?
Paste has always been better with uneven surfaces.
I can understand it exactly the opposite way. Even surfaces go for paste, non even with pad.
GnFgr said:
I can understand it exactly the opposite way. Even surfaces go for paste, non even with pad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You may be thinking of EPOXY thermal compound, which in my opinion is garbage.
On the other hand any silicone based grease is far better at filling gaps than pads are. Most factories tend to use pads though because it's cleaner and there is less maintenance to perform on the factory assembly machines.
Good read here:
Thermal Pads vs Thermal Paste: The Best Choice for Mounting Your Heatsinks
I used to work as a construction assistant, where my primary responsibility was to level properties prior to the heavy concrete trucks laying down a level foundation. It was a tedious and taxing job, but something that is quite crucial for a building in order for it to withstand years of use and...
resources.altium.com
I never said about epoxy based. Never.
The px6 is not only uneven but has a metal shield on top. The metal shield acts as an interference shield ( like a faraday cage maybe?) And has holes. So the surface in not only not even it is full of holes.
I am not asking about even and not, and you stand correct, in surfaces that are either even or almost paste in my mind is the way to go.
But when the gap is bigger that x what is better?
So today i cleaned the paste with isopropyl alcohol and used a good pad from gelid i think. It is rated as 15W/mK and is 0.5mm thickness.
With external temp of 5 degrees Celsius the cpu was at 78 to 80 degrees after an hour. That is with thermal paste.
With the thermal pad the temperature after an hour is 65 degrees.
The usage is exactly the same at the one hour usage.
Maybe the metallic shield has no contact with the cpu and the pad manages through the holes to have at least some contact and achieve better heat transfer?
Well... some kind of cooling is better than none, that is for sure, but heat sinks are supposed to make full and direct contact with the device and if it can't then I suggest you have mechanical issues to correct rather than thermodynamic ones.
Damn.
I am not asking what is better as a general concept. I am asking what is better for a specific use that there is a shield above the cpu and there is no direct contact.
Anyway mate forget it.
GnFgr said:
Damn.
I am not asking what is better as a general concept. I am asking what is better for a specific use that there is a shield above the cpu and there is no direct contact.
Anyway mate forget it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt you can find many to answer a question on mounting a heat sink in such an improper fashion. Not withstanding, you seem to be convinced that the pad is the right way to go, so I'm not sure why you are asking the question in the first place.
I asked because i wanted to learn what is better. Haven't test both when i asked and thought asking in a forum might find someone that had data on it.
Sorry if i overwhelmed you.
Anyway just forget this thread to the void.
Keep on