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After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources. Then we are back to the laptop mentality and model. Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets . I am curious if anybody has some insight from the developer community on what they are thinking of the Microsoft RT platform for small simple apps. Are most Android/Apple Devs thinking they will be able to port to RT easily and do they see promise with that platform. Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it. I am a musician and Apple owns that market due to low latency audio interface, and android has ignored that audio market entirely - Android has high latency, making it useless as an audio interface with no plans to pursue that market I understand there are also long term concerns that Android will continue, which seems to be why Google is getting more involved in the hardware side of things to hopefully sustain it.
Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Michael
guitar1969 said:
After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources. Then we are back to the laptop mentality and model. Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets . I am curious if anybody has some insight from the developer community on what they are thinking of the Microsoft RT platform for small simple apps. Are most Android/Apple Devs thinking they will be able to port to RT easily and do they see promise with that platform. Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it. I am a musician and Apple owns that market due to low latency audio interface, and android has ignored that audio market entirely - Android has high latency, making it useless as an audio interface with no plans to pursue that market I understand there are also long term concerns that Android will continue, which seems to be why Google is getting more involved in the hardware side of things to hopefully sustain it.
Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Michael
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android did it when Apple had all their apps...
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
guitar1969 said:
After returning a Asus TF700 Infinity Tablet that had issues out of the box, I watched the Microsoft Surface keynote and I am interested now. But let's face it, without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android. I understand the ability to run full blown apps is appealing, but if they are full blown app like Office they are not going to be cheap and use a lot of resources.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows RT will not run full blown x86 windows applications at the moment, just Modern UI (codenamed metro) applications with the exception of Office RT which is a desktop RT app planned to be included with Windows RT itself, it's unclear if Microsoft will eventually open up windows RT to allow 3rd party desktop apps but I doubt it.
guitar1969 said:
Also, will the unit be instant on like other tablets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not believe most tablets (even apples) are instant* on from off, only instant on from standby, with between 8 seconds to a minute for cold boot, Windows 8 on PC's manages a cold boot(from power off to login screen) in less than 30 seconds on most PC's I believe(even my BIOS system's boot is farily quick with Windows 8).
guitar1969 said:
Also curious how the audio infrastructure will be on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as far as I understand Windows RT's kernel is largely based on the NT kernel used in Windows 7 and 8, so probably uses a similar audio stack but I don't know if there are differences in the audio stack used in modern UI apps, keep in mind too that modern UI apps are intended to be compile once, run on Windows 8 x86-64 and Windows RT.[/QUOTE]
My windows 7 computer with an SSD cold boots in less than 30 seconds and I haven't tried Windows 8 on it yet. But my old ASUS T101MT boots in less than 1 minute on cold boot with Wondows 8 developer preview and it has a dated Imtel ATOM in it. If you think 1 minute is to long you must get pissed at your toaster on a frequent basis.
But I digress. People run and hide from microsoft innovation and jump on the bandwagon that it is cool to hate MS. Apple had awhile marketing campaign about it when Vista ws out and people were buying cheap PCs then running to Apple to blow 3x the amount on a MacBook.... :-/
Buy quality and get quality. I foresee SL8 owning the market, but iff (if and only if) people adopt. Android as a computing system is a joke. iOS was NOTHING until developers made it what it is and consumer demand and executive preferences push IT Pros to make it compatible in the workplace.
RT should be able to enter the marketplace without as many restrictions, it just needs to meet the fickle consumer who thinks quantities of useless garbage applications means better. It can solve those problems by persuading the developers of the top 100 app on android and iOS to cross migrate.
I am going to wait in line at the MS store for an RT Surface and buy a red keyboard and then flaunt it in all my iPad and Android tablet owning friends faces. Ha!
Sent from my mwp6985 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
>without a good size library of small quality RT Apps, as a tablet it won't make it against Apple and Android.
This is a circular argument: "RT can't succeed if it can't have many apps, but it can't have many apps if it can't succeed." What you're arguing is for the status quo, that the big will keep getting bigger, and the small can't ever get big. If that were the case, MS would still be big, and Apple forever small.
Per above, RT does have the chicken-or-egg dilemmna in getting more apps. MS' solution is to leverage Win8's installed base to get Win devs to build RT apps, which would then benefit not only RT, but also WP8, since all three now share substantial commonality. That's the plan, anyway. We'll have to see the execution.
It's a long process--a few years--so don't expect RT to be an overnight success. This first release will be basically a public beta.
>Its an exciting time but also a tough time to decide what to buy.
Not that tough. Unless you're a dev or an early adopter, don't buy a first release of anything. That includes RT. Anybody who knows MS' track record would want to wait until the 3rd release. Let's be realistic, RT can turn out to be another Zune.
>it's unclear if Microsoft will eventually open up windows RT to allow 3rd party desktop apps but I doubt it.
It's clear if you ask the question: Can Metro UI handle all desktop computing tasks available? At this point, the answer is "no." Then it means the desktop will coexist with Metro for the foreseeable future.
The next question to ask is: What is RT's ace in competing against iPad and Android? Put differently, what can RT do that iPad/Android can't? One easy answer is that it can run (ported) desktop apps. Why? Because most RT tablets will have a keyboard & trackpad, per Surface RT's design direction.
So, yeah, I'm pretty confident desktop apps will be on RT. It's MS' ace. When you're behind, you have to be able to do something different than just following the leader's footsteps. MS can't out-app the iPad. It can't out-UI the iPad. It can't out-design the iPad. It has to make RT do something the iPad can't. Like, run desktop apps.
This is from the WinBeta site:
Microsoft's Windows Store has today been opened to all developers in 120 markets, which means a wider range of developers can start developing apps for the Windows 8 and Windows RT platform. The app store currently has over 1000 apps, which is an OK sum, but more the merrier?
There are over 1000 apps. And I would bet most main players are not going to miss the chance to jump on board.
120 countries can develop apps for their Language. This is a big bonus for windows 8.
Hey guys, I've been looking up on the surface and it's perfect for me. I've never liked tablets because of the keyboard issue so this is great for me.
as I've never had a tablet or anything like this before so my question may be stupid but can I download programs and use them or is it just like apps and stuff? I mean if it was a normal computer but just so thin and compact it would be great and i think that's why I'm mistaking this to be.
I thought as it's a windows 8 tablet that programs on PC that were coded for windows 8 PC would work on the surface?
UrbanDesigns said:
Hey guys, I've been looking up on the surface and it's perfect for me. I've never liked tablets because of the keyboard issue so this is great for me.
as I've never had a tablet or anything like this before so my question may be stupid but can I download programs and use them or is it just like apps and stuff? I mean if it was a normal computer but just so thin and compact it would be great and i think that's why I'm mistaking this to be.
I thought as it's a windows 8 tablet that programs on PC that were coded for windows 8 PC would work on the surface?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right and wrong.
surface by microsoft is of two types.
-surface rt
-surface pro.
surface rt is powered by nvidia arm tegra 3 processor. this will allow it to ONLY run windows app created for ARM processor. so with this you will only be able to use apps downloaded from windows store(previously known as metro apps). this tab will be lighter, cheaper and is already available on microsoft stores.
surface pro on the other hand is powere by intel sandy bridge processors built on x86 architecture. this means it has the same architecture as old windows machines and will run older programmes made for windows 7, vista etc. also it will be able to run apps downloaded from windows store(metro apps). this tab will be bulkier, and more expensive and is expected to be available by the end of the year.
from your post i think you should stick with the surface pro. hope i ans ur question.
spaco22 provided great answers, but I think the real question is - what stuff (apps/programs) do you want to download and use?
The Surface RT comes with Office, media player, etc. It works with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon video, and has an "app store".
If you want to install and run "any" Windows program, I agree with spaco22, you'll want the Pro, or, IMO, spend another hundred or two and get an Ultrabook or convertible. You'll have a better overall "full Windows" experience than on the Surface Pro.
mk1151 said:
spaco22 provided great answers, but I think the real question is - what stuff (apps/programs) do you want to download and use?
The Surface RT comes with Office, media player, etc. It works with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon video, and has an "app store".
If you want to install and run "any" Windows program, I agree with spaco22, you'll want the Pro, or, IMO, spend another hundred or two and get an Ultrabook or convertible. You'll have a better overall "full Windows" experience than on the Surface Pro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just everyday programs that I use on my computer, I like the idea of the Surface cause of how thin it is but if the pro version is bulkier then I don't think I'd bother.
Thanks for answering guys!
UrbanDesigns said:
Just everyday programs that I use on my computer, I like the idea of the Surface cause of how thin it is but if the pro version is bulkier then I don't think I'd bother.
Thanks for answering guys!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its worth a note that surface pro isn't the only x86 windows 8 tablet. If you want skinny then you could look up atom basses tablets as they can be just as slim though you will lose power so don't expect call of duty, though the new amd chips had it running at 30fps but then your thicker again. Also note that almost all keyboards can work even with Rt let alonr pro. I have a surface but i don't use the touchpad as its a bit restrictive ie you need a flat surface, so i use a mac Bluetooth keyboard and it works a great and is almost as slim and 100x more practical est with the kickstand.
mk1151 said:
spaco22 provided great answers, but I think the real question is - what stuff (apps/programs) do you want to download and use?
The Surface RT comes with Office, media player, etc. It works with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon video, and has an "app store".
If you want to install and run "any" Windows program, I agree with spaco22, you'll want the Pro, or, IMO, spend another hundred or two and get an Ultrabook or convertible. You'll have a better overall "full Windows" experience than on the Surface Pro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but the pro is going to be over $1000 depending on what model and you are saying spending a few hundred more for an ultrabook. The point being is the surface rt and ipads are limited but for most users will be fine for daily computing. Yes they don't run legacy apps but looking forward , future software will be designed for that platform if Win8 has a strong install base and legacy apps will not really be needed / wanted in many cases.
the atom based tablet looks good, plus it has 4G LTE which is a bonus
im not looking to play call of duty on it but i just want something that's powerful and run normal programs. there's not apps for everything I need to do.
Thanks for the heads up on RT vs PRO. Might have to reconsider buying the RT and going straight to Pro
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
ih8sense said:
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You bought a good tablet, mate. build quality and software is awesome, that's why u got interested in the first place.
On the other hand, will it get support?, i believe in time it will. My reasons is touch screen. Touch is the future, yes x86 apps already exist but they dont exist in touch. So the future being touch will revolutionize the existing apps for touch and this will make room for metro apps. And this is were rt will win.
Secondly the future is portable, x86 is not, rt is. Windows 8 is bridge to what will become sindows of the future, a touch only windows. Besides if MS fails in marketing RT, someone else will want a cut of the pie and market RT.
Lastly, modders will break this device before xmas, sideloading will b possible,emulation will happen and i foresee a future were android emulators will run on this beast. A lot will happen
RT has potential, surface may fail but RT will not cos its light weight and its future proof.
I think RT will not fail. PPL will wait till they see their lovely apps on it but they will come. Windows is used on more than 90% of the computers in the world. So I think its just a matter of time to developers finish and publish their apps. Even if winRT won't get as popular as win8, the code is almost the same which makes easy to publish the same app for Arm.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express
you know, the only pros of surface pro over surface IMO is the MKV support and 1080p screen.
2 things that made me return surface are
- lack of MKV support (which 90% of my movies are in mkv)
- low resolution. When i used it while lying down the bed, i tend to use it closer to my eyes than when i'm sitting down. The text doesn't look crisp and i can see pixels in the pictures.
If those 2 reasons won't bother you, surface is one hell of a tablet and for 499$, it's a steal. Remember that it's a tablet, apps would be optimized for touchscreen and you will have great mobility over laptop. The apps are pretty limited for now but i believe developers will start developing for it. I love the surface even though i return it.
I think that the biggest hurdle for Windows RT is the WinRT runtime. It's horribly gimped. I was honestly amazed at how god awful and stunted C# was in WinRT. It's almost as if they intentionally limited it for reasons only MS knows.
First off, Microsoft haven't announced a halving of orders. It is merely conjecture. What they have announced is support for Surface RT until 2017 though we dont know any details around this.
I dont think that Windows RT will be a big platform in the way that other lightweight OS's are - iOS and Android - but I do think it offers something unique. If you use tons of popular apps on other platforms, you will be disappointed in the Surface RT. If you live in a web browser, you will love Surface RT. I am not sure this will change unless those apps come for Windows 8 and can also be cross compiled for Windows RT.
If a 10" tablet is what you want and it fits your life, I see only 2 usable options - an iPad or a Surface RT. Android is awful on 10" tablets.
Sounds to me though that if you want the form factor the Surface brings, then Surface Pro might be more suitable, but I am not convinced it is a viable tablet as Windows desktop mode is horrible to use with touch.
quoted:
Sounds to me though that if you want the form factor the Surface brings, then Surface Pro might be more suitable, but I am not convinced it is a viable tablet as Windows desktop mode is horrible to use with touch.
pro =$1000, 4ish hour battery life.
no sales numbers released from rt.
ruh roh.
What about the Lenovo Twist? Windows 8 Pro, i5, 128gb SSD 12.5 touch screen and it is a tablet and laptop.. I returned my Surface and bought a Twist for $699 on BF.. Hoping it will do it all....
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
Got to agree with some of the above posts.
RT is the future of windows, it is the new NT, and some of us older users will remember how that was initially received...
The Surface RT is one helluva sexy tablet. In build quality, specs, and screen beauty it just is awesome. Really without software it is way ahead of the whole pack..... I played with it a long time....
But every time I interacted with the windows interface, there was just that familiar slow feeling. I am even now very serious about the Surface RT and am hotly debating buying it. But the software is just slightly underwhelming. I love the Metro interface, but not whats under it.
IF you do web browisng, games, movies and pics ONLY - this is an ABSOLUTELY must buy. The gorgeous experience is unbeatable. But the whole interaction at the windows level tends to wake me up from my dream. Having support for proper PowerPoint with HDMI ouput makes this a traveling presentation platform etc. But apps? apps? apps? You cannot entice people if the apps are missing - you cannot say " buy it now, I guarantee that apps are coming". It does not work with consumers. That it may lead to a slow down fro the Surface is one of my biggest fears.
On a tablet I browse the internet, listen to music, read books, email, and watch some sports. So by my own standard I should buy it. But Windows keeps me away...
One thing I do not agree about as said above - that windows desktop is not for touch. Using the touch laptops I find this to be quite intuitive, coming from a tablet world. Yes, on vertical screens one's hands can get tired to do a lot of touching - holding it up to the screen for extended periods. But I find it much more natural than trackpads - I hate trackpads, even Apple's "magic" trackpad ....
My 2 cents.... I need to decide if I just want a tablet, or a tablet that can double as a small laptop.
saryu said:
you know, the only pros of surface pro over surface IMO is the MKV support and 1080p screen.
2 things that made me return surface are
- lack of MKV support (which 90% of my movies are in mkv)
- low resolution. When i used it while lying down the bed, i tend to use it closer to my eyes than when i'm sitting down. The text doesn't look crisp and i can see pixels in the pictures.
If those 2 reasons won't bother you, surface is one hell of a tablet and for 499$, it's a steal. Remember that it's a tablet, apps would be optimized for touchscreen and you will have great mobility over laptop. The apps are pretty limited for now but i believe developers will start developing for it. I love the surface even though i return it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In less than a month after the release there are at least two applications tha support some mkv. They are still not perfect but it took developers more than a year to get the same result for the iPad.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
---------- Post added at 01:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------
Yes, I'm worry about the cut down the numbers of orders for RT reported by suppliers and Microsoft rushing to release the PRO version acting like it will be the saver.
http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-high-risk-behind-surface-pro.html#links
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ctitanic said:
In less than a month after the release there are at least two applications tha support some mkv. They are still not perfect but it took developers more than a year to get the same result for the iPad.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
---------- Post added at 01:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------
Yes, I'm worry about the cut down the numbers of orders for RT reported by suppliers and Microsoft rushing to release the PRO version acting like it will be the saver.
http://ultramobilepc-tips.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-high-risk-behind-surface-pro.html#links
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After hearing the pricing of the pro and the battery limitations, I actually like my Surface RT more now. Unfortunately there is so much pressure for it to beat the IPAD that people write it off without giving it a chance . I like it more and more every day.
ih8sense said:
I've been excited about the Surface since it was first announced... and my excitement held true even after getting my hands on a demo unit... but now, considering the price, looking at the future of Windows RT and finally their announcement that they're cutting order amounts has me second guessing my upcoming purchase.
I just don't think it's a viable platform anymore, I feel like RT will be dead in a year and this device will be the Commodore Amiga of the Tablet world.
Any current users feel the same? Differently? I'm just scared to buy one now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It very depends on your propose, what you need for it.
for me, i do need a lot excel , ppt, word, and I tried do it on iPad, it sucks. I own a Macbook Air, but a bit trouble while checking something on street .....
After testing Surface for an hour, I love it. Of course if you looking for fun more than a working tab, its not a good choice at this moment as lack of apps support.
Just hope Chrome will come and get more apps soon , then will be the king of tablet im sure.
guitar1969 said:
After hearing the pricing of the pro and the battery limitations, I actually like my Surface RT more now. Unfortunately there is so much pressure for it to beat the IPAD that people write it off without giving it a chance . I like it more and more every day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree. I can't put the damn thing down! The browser experience is sensational. And Xbox music is phenomenally good! I mean free streaming music, albeit with fairly unobtrusive add support.
And as for apps you needn't worry. The company I work for has figured out that Windows 8 is going onto every budget laptop from here on out and the Windows 8 marketplace presents a great opportunity. As such are having their iOS & Android app ported to Win8 as we speak.
Also as another example the impetus to get into Windows 8/RT the VLC Player devs are going to the extreme of going to Kickstarter for funding to hire full time devs to get VLC Player into the Windows 8 marketplace as fast as possible... http://www.wpcentral.com/vlc-starts-kickstarter-windows-8-and-beyond-development-funding
So I sincerely believe the WINRT app catalogue will really take off.
Also, you know it's a good device when the missus is continually wanting it off you!
I agree with others... The RT has a good life to it. The problem IMO, is that people are holding out to see the Pro, then they'll decide.
Honestly I think people will end up with the RT over the Pro.
You just can't use a 10" screen for full desktop applications. It doesn't work.
Also, and this is big, the Pro is not using a Run Time system, that means you must shut it down when not in use, it will suspend instead of sleep, and it will go through battery like mad (they expect 4 hours max).
If you like how fast the Surface RT turns on, and how your e-mails, status updates, and calendar reminders are there, kiss that goodbye with the Pro. It is, for all intents and purposes, a PC in a thin form factor. An engineering marvel for sure, but I think people will expect it to be like the Surface RT, iPad, or Android tab just beefier. When they find out it isn't, I think RT sales will shoot up.
I also read somewhere that the Surface is not optimized to use all the 5 cores of the Tegra3 and it is still running crippled. I believe it came from Nvidia themselves. Once fixed, it should be more responsive. I hope so, because it does seem a bit slow in opening apps and such, although it is tolerable.
guitar1969 said:
I also read somewhere that the Surface is not optimized to use all the 5 cores of the Tegra3 and it is still running crippled. I believe it came from Nvidia themselves. Once fixed, it should be more responsive. I hope so, because it does seem a bit slow in opening apps and such, although it is tolerable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft will continue to optimise the base firmware of the device to improve performance. They've released one such update already and there will be plenty more to come.
Just look how far they've pushed the Xbox 360.
What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Myriachan said:
What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The biggest challenge would be loading Linux and getting it not to panic immediately.
Other than that, there are tegra drivers available, but I seem to recall that the OEMs customize certain aspects, such as memory mappings, that we'd either have to reverse engineer from Windows or just straight up guess on.
netham45 said:
The biggest challenge would be loading Linux and getting it not to panic immediately.
Other than that, there are tegra drivers available, but I seem to recall that the OEMs customize certain aspects, such as memory mappings, that we'd either have to reverse engineer from Windows or just straight up guess on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think another hard part would be implementing some sort of way to capture the output of Linux's console once the NT kernel is gone.
I don't think that getting the memory mappings would actually be too difficult, if we know the devices.
Myriachan said:
What would be required to make Android for Surface RT? The exploit to get into kernel mode exists, so this is more about what is required to get Android running.
Surface RT has a Tegra3 with 2 GB RAM, but I don't know much more than that about the actual hardware. Does Android have drivers for such hardware already?
I'm more of a Windows person. I don't know Linux internals very well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NVidia have a full linux for tegra project. They like OEMs to keep the devices similar to an extent I think. You can buy tegra dev boards as a consumer (although they have ridiculous prices).
Much of the surface hardware interfaces via i2c as per the microsoft windows 8 hardware guidelines. UART usage is not allowed so much in Windows 8 for internal devices but the tegra does have quite a few UARTS and I presume bare minimum 1 of them is accessible externally, question is how or where. Quite a few methods have been used on phones for adding external serial access, but who knows where it would be on the RT, would take some very intimate PCB tracing to work out where the hell it is if it is there. Common ones I have seen have been a specific resistor value used on the sense line for a USB-OTG adaptor to then trigger a pinmux to swap USB D+ and D- for a serial Tx and Rx, any other value would then trigger the USB host function as you would expect such a cable to do. Same has been done on the nexus 4 between the microphone and ground pins on the audio jack. iPhones and I think the galaxy tabs have them in their regular plug (well, all iOS devices with a 30 pin connector rather than lightning, galaxy tabs also have their own large pin count connector instead of a microUSB).
The RT, well the external keyboard connector is 6 pins. Keyboard, mouse and accelerometer all interface via the i2c bus which is 2 pins (SDA, SCL), all comms need a ground and a VCC connection of some sort is required. thats 4 pins accounted for. For some reason though 1 of the pins isn't connected within the tablet itself, so there are only actually 5 pins. Could the 5th be a sense line?
Android on RT, well, android is linux kernel based. So start with linux on RT and your probably most of the way there. Once your that far you might aswell get a "regular" linux distro on there, if you had full hardware support and were to run lets say ubuntu (for simplicities sake) you probably have a device far more useful than Windows RT now that you are free of the RT limitations
Oh, android kernel sources for several tegra devices are available too I think.
But I am guessing the biggest obstacle is getting the RT to even attempt to boot a linux kernel.
---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
Oh, anyone really interested in whats under the hood of that chip: https://developer.nvidia.com/tegra-3-technical-reference-manual
Display might cause a slight issue. Tegra has both DSI and LDVS display support. Which one is the Surface using is unknown. If I had to hazard a guess, I would wager the surface uses DSI. Mostly because it has an HDMI output, the tegra does not support HDMI output natively, however converting a set of LDVS signals to HDMI (and vice versa) are relatively straight forward compared to DSI. You can get DSI screens in the RT's size, so I would guess they use DSI for the screen and LDVS with an adaptor for the HDMI, or if someone was testing the display output of the RT, you could just presume its LDVS for instance and simply connect the RT to a display as it boots linux and see whether the internal or external displays come on first I guess, or device manager in windows might shed some light (or it might not).
There is PCIe in there, wouldnt surprise me if they use it for networking. I dont see anything else suited to the task particularly (outside of special use cases, SPI is often used for an arduino for example, but at the same time it isnt streaming youtube in 1080p).
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Actually they are having a sale right now. In korea atleast. 310,000krw (approx US$277) for a 32gb surface and touch cover..
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This may sound dumb but, wouldn't it be simpler to drop linux from android and run android natively on windows? Just like normal software in fullscreen.
After all, android is a shell ontop of an OS.
These guys did it on x86 (Surface Pro): http://windroy.com/
ScRePt said:
This may sound dumb but, wouldn't it be simpler to drop linux from android and run android natively on windows? Just like normal software in fullscreen.
After all, android is a shell ontop of an OS.
These guys did it on x86 (Surface Pro): http://windroy.com/
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Click to collapse
They are not first to do so. Bluestacks and JarOfBeans.
Android mostly consists of the dalvik virtual machine and a few libraries, its a complex project though and it does rely heavily on linux capabilities, I think Bluestacks uses cygwin extensively, which isnt available for RT and is very complex itself.
Its actually incredibly difficult to do what you propose. It might actually be simpler to get the linux kernel booting, besides, the linux kernel on an RT device would be more useful in the long term as it would open the door to running Ubuntu or something on the device.
I referred windroy because I am quite amazed of it's speed.
I thought they just wrapped the linux calls to call the winapi and thus it seemed simpler than porting a whole OS
@ threadstarter:
just buy a nexus tablet if you are in android THAT much.
The idea is to have both Windows and Android... there's no ARM tablet that can currently do that. Besides, "put Linux on it" is a time-honored hacking tradition. It doesn't even need to be practical, really. Myriachan has already done some very cool work for the community, too... https://twitter.com/Myriachan/statuses/365350790803619840
unbenannt said:
@ threadstarter:
just buy a nexus tablet if you are in android THAT much.
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Not sure if you realise who the thread starter was. One of the people who works on jailbreaking the RT and porting applications in the first place, not some random noob saying "herpa I want android derpa".
Its almost unwritten law that when a new device comes out, someone needs to get linux booting on it. Someone has even booted linux on an 8bit AVR microcontroller (AtMega328 specifically I think, although technically they cheated by wiring an actual RAM DIMM module to it and an SD card and then hand writing an ARM emulator which then loaded a linux for ARM port up, took a few hours to boot actually ). Chumbys, DVD set top boxes, phones, watches, anything including the nexus tablet actually https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation. NEEDS LINUX.
Anyway. If you could boot linux on it then an RT tablet then to many people it would become instantly more usable, its actually the sort of thing that would make me interested in using my 10% off voucher for one.
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
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Well, Microsoft just sold 10,000 RT devices on their "manufacturer_certified" eBay account at firesale prices.
about 7,500 Surface RT 32GB with touch cover sold for $199.
and 2,500 Surface RT 64GB sold at $199
I picked up one at this price, obviously a lot of others did as well.
brad1825 said:
Well, Microsoft just sold 10,000 RT devices on their "manufacturer_certified" eBay account at firesale prices.
about 7,500 Surface RT 32GB with touch cover sold for $199.
and 2,500 Surface RT 64GB sold at $199
I picked up one at this price, obviously a lot of others did as well.
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Hm. Any link to show where you got the figures?
If they indeed sold 10k RT devices, this could bring a boost to the RT dev environment.
my surface is perfect, no hacking needed. does 99% of wat a tablet should do. perfectly
spaco22 said:
my surface is perfect, no hacking needed. does 99% of wat a tablet should do. perfectly
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Good for you, you really needed to post that? This thread is here for those where the tablet does not do what it should do for some users...
This thing is practically doing a touchpad style firesale for black friday. The hardware is nice for the $200 price point, but I won't bother getting one unless there's a decent chance of an Android port (RT is useless.)
Any work towards that end since this thread died off?
Rakeesh_j said:
This thing is practically doing a touchpad style firesale for black friday. The hardware is nice for the $200 price point, but I won't bother getting one unless there's a decent chance of an Android port (RT is useless.)
Any work towards that end since this thread died off?
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Sorry for that, but in my opinion Android on a tablet is useless...! Except of the case you want many useless apps and games on your tablet...
On RT you have much more opportunities e.g. full USB support full working Office and much more!!!
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT. This is going to stay until more people get RT devices. Look at the HP Touchpad, the dev community was stagnant until the fire sales. After the fire sales, people started ports of android and now afaik, there are fully working ports.
I believe a similar thing must occur for the Surface RT, perhaps clearing stock at $300-$350 with keyboard. Get more people onboard and some serious dev work will begin. MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fire sales have begun! Hoping to pick mine up on Black Friday!
http://www.microcenter.com/product/412706/Surface_RT_32GB_with_Black_Touch_Cover
lambstone said:
MS won't have fire sales, they are not going to close down the RT division anytime soon so chances are, it'll just be some sale to clear old stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't be so sure about that.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/26/microsoft-kill-windows-rt-larson-green
http://www.geek.com/microsoft/windo...according-to-microsofts-devices-lead-1578243/
MisterKrispy said:
Fire sales have begun! Hoping to pick mine up on Black Friday!
http://www.microcenter.com/product/412706/Surface_RT_32GB_with_Black_Touch_Cover
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$179.99 seems about right for standing out in the cold.
lambstone said:
The issue here is there is too few devs on xda working on the RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not for long.
I ran across this little article and I was thinking that when this option becomes available it may be applicable to the Surface. I was able to get a surface for free from a friend of mine who was having trouble charging it. I was there doing work on a laptop for her dad and she just told me I could have the tablet. I offered to try and repair it, and she just said to keep it. So, got the surface rt, blue keyboard, and a case. Come to find out that all that was bad was the charger. Some loose wires. I wasn't able to fix the charger, but I have a new one coming tomorrow. Now I have to come up something to do with this little tablet. Minecraft for the kids would be preferred. Everything else is fine on the tablet. So, a little curious to see how this Windows 10 ARM works and if it will work to put on the Surface RT. Especially, with the emulation built in.
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-not-windows-rt
lol x86 emulation isn't going to work on a Tegra 3. There has been work on porting Windows 10 IoT to the tablet but there is a lot to do like porting drivers and applications
fgghjjkll said:
lol x86 emulation isn't going to work on a Tegra 3. There has been work on porting Windows 10 IoT to the tablet but there is a lot to do like porting drivers and applications
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Lol what. The old tegra hardware is perfectly capable from a hardware standpoint.
We already had working emulation on the surface RT... I played though all of fallout 1 on my surface RT.
https://hackaday.com/2013/02/18/running-x86-apps-on-windows-rt-devices/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
danthekilla said:
Lol what. The old tegra hardware is perfectly capable from a hardware standpoint.
We already had working emulation on the surface RT... I played though all of fallout 1 on my surface RT.
https://hackaday.com/2013/02/18/running-x86-apps-on-windows-rt-devices/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
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The project is abandoned. Sorry.
There is this group working on Linux for the rt model surface units. https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_151267220466917&key=f0a7f91912ae2b52e0700f73990eb321&libId=jawsy41u01000n4o000DAwb2n09zf9zol&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.xda-developers.com%2Fsitesearch.php%3Fq%3Dwindows%2520surface%2520rt&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fq%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fforum.xda-developers.com%2Fwindows-8-rt%2Frt-development%2Fwip-secure-boot-linux-surface-rt-t3653848%26sa%3DU%26ved%3D0ahUKEwiEsrbTwPjXAhWD2YMKHQPXA48QFggMMAQ%26client%3Dinternal-uds-cse%26cx%3Dpartner-pub-2900107662879704%3A4763122713%26usg%3DAOvVaw09iZfaks4BIXZgVRFCfAIG&title=General%20Search&txt=%5BWIP%5D%20Secure%20Boot%20and%20Linux%20for%20%3Cb%3ESurface%20RT%3C%2Fb%3E%20%7C%20%3Cb%3EWindows%3C%2Fb%3E%208%2C%20RT%20...
puppychow said:
There is this group working on Linux for the rt model surface units. https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma... <b>Surface RT</b> | <b>Windows</b> 8, RT ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Link isnt working
phoenixbennu said:
I ran across this little article and I was thinking that when this option becomes available it may be applicable to the Surface. I was able to get a surface for free from a friend of mine who was having trouble charging it. I was there doing work on a laptop for her dad and she just told me I could have the tablet. I offered to try and repair it, and she just said to keep it. So, got the surface rt, blue keyboard, and a case. Come to find out that all that was bad was the charger. Some loose wires. I wasn't able to fix the charger, but I have a new one coming tomorrow. Now I have to come up something to do with this little tablet. Minecraft for the kids would be preferred. Everything else is fine on the tablet. So, a little curious to see how this Windows 10 ARM works and if it will work to put on the Surface RT. Especially, with the emulation built in.
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-not-windows-rt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows 10 for Surface RT has been leaked.
Here is a link (follow the steps carefully)
https://forum.xda-developers.com/wi...face-rt-2-windows-10-arm32-step-step-t4107273