Related
Hi, folks!
Nowadays, living outside the USA and purchased Thunderbolt as my second phone. In my country there're CDMA providers using 1x and EvDo tecnologies.
For previous models like Droid 2 etc updating PRL from CDMA Workshop or QPST working brilliant. BTW, is there such option in ThunderBolt to update PRL via workshop.
One more question as about 4G sim card. Does ThunderBolt works without it in Verizon network (even not 4G speed)
THX
The sim is required to use the.phone
The phone auto updates the prl upon reboot
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App
In other hands, it can easily enters the ##DIAG mode, gonna try it today or maybe tomorrow.
Will see
Have purchased RUIM card, voice is working, data is not,
Phone indicates on the lock screen "This SIM Card doesn't recognized (emergency calls only" but all voice calls are perfect.
Gonna think a little bit much more
Phone always try to use unexistant 4G data connection, tried to put it in only EvDo mode, all stuff is configured correctly in RUIM, checked it via ##778, but ThunderBolt never tries to connect via EvDo
vip7070 said:
Phone always try to use unexistant 4G data connection, tried to put it in only EvDo mode, all stuff is configured correctly in RUIM, checked it via ##778, but ThunderBolt never tries to connect via EvDo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
me too.
me too.no 1x data connection too.
vip7070 said:
Hi, folks!
Nowadays, living outside the USA and purchased Thunderbolt as my second phone. In my country there're CDMA providers using 1x and EvDo tecnologies.
For previous models like Droid 2 etc updating PRL from CDMA Workshop or QPST working brilliant. BTW, is there such option in ThunderBolt to update PRL via workshop.
One more question as about 4G sim card. Does ThunderBolt works without it in Verizon network (even not 4G speed)
THX
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it will not work on VZW's network without the SIM card, for the same reason it will not work on any other CDMA network at all. The TB is not a true CDMA phone in that it does not have an MEID number, which is the number that is hard coded and unique to every CDMA handset. Every phone has to have a unique identifier in order for the cell phone network to be able to identify that network device (otherwise the network would not have a clue who is talking to it, and vice-versa your phone would not know when it is being spoken to). In the case of the TB, this unique identifier is stored in the SIM card, not on the phone itself.
VZW is running a hybrid system of sorts in that the VZW system is generating an internal MEID for the TB for when it is on the CDMA network based on the SIM card that is currently installed in it. Without the sim card your phone has no ID, and without the verizon back end no CDMA network can translate the unique identifier on your SIM card into a usable MEID.
Nusince said:
No, it will not work on VZW's network without the SIM card, for the same reason it will not work on any other CDMA network at all. The TB is not a true CDMA phone in that it does not have an MEID number, which is the number that is hard coded and unique to every CDMA handset. Every phone has to have a unique identifier in order for the cell phone network to be able to identify that network device (otherwise the network would not have a clue who is talking to it, and vice-versa your phone would not know when it is being spoken to). In the case of the TB, this unique identifier is stored in the SIM card, not on the phone itself.
VZW is running a hybrid system of sorts in that the VZW system is generating an internal MEID for the TB for when it is on the CDMA network based on the SIM card that is currently installed in it. Without the sim card your phone has no ID, and without the verizon back end no CDMA network can translate the unique identifier on your SIM card into a usable MEID.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man, thank you for your reply, but as I say, I have purchased a RUIM card (looks like the sim card) from my local operator, everythins is OK except data. I mean I can easily call or receive a call or texe message, but data isn't working properly.
Moreover, can confirm that I can update network settings via ##778# (will see in snapshots). What is the way to make my data connection workin?
All additinal info with the proof of working in third party CDMA networks in the attachements.
I have alot of experience with things like this as I used to bring my Verizon phones to China when I visited my father. What you are going to need to do is find your providers settings and program them in via QPST. Once you get that all setup then you should be ok. That's how I do it atleast. I have a Thunderbolt as well and I thought about poking around with it the other day and then I connected it in CDMA Workshop to see whats in there.
So the thunderbolt can work with the RUIM card, if i get the ruim card..Can i change the prl on the thunderbolt since i cant change it on the verizon sim card
baboulou said:
So the thunderbolt can work with the RUIM card, if i get the ruim card..Can i change the prl on the thunderbolt since i cant change it on the verizon sim card
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely, you can try
the tb can be fully flashed to ntelos 3g data and all just use cdma workshop and the origonal 4g sim here's mine with bad esn (verizon) fully flashed (ntelos) http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5774475447
vdub804 said:
the tb can be fully flashed to ntelos 3g data and all just use cdma workshop and the origonal 4g sim here's mine with bad esn (verizon) fully flashed (ntelos)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I Can Confirm This Method Is Real I Have It Flashed Over To Cricket With VZW Sim Card Installed! Thanks Alot VDUB804
asteven23 said:
I Can Confirm This Method Is Real I Have It Flashed Over To Cricket With VZW Sim Card Installed! Thanks Alot VDUB804
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
VDUB804 & asteven23 , can you guys share any info on how this was done please. i want to get TB on Sprint. I have experience repairing meid on the evo, i've done a few successfully with 3g and everything working. do i need to set the phone to requestnvitemwrite 0x2a then write the esn over using qpst since it does not actually have a 0xa1 meid or does it? on the evo you have to find all the MEIDs and ESNs, zero out, then flash. also would updating all the info under the mip tab get 3g to work...any help would be greatly appreciated guys. thanks.
Is there a way to use the phone without a SIM card? I don't have LTE in my area, and I keep getting the "no SIM Error" so was thinking that the SIM was useless anyways.
On the stock ROM every time I get the SIM error, or if I remove the SIM card itself, I get no data on the phone at all. When I try to turn on Mobile Data it prompts me to insert the SIM.
On other CUSTOM or JB ROMs, I don't get the SIM error prompt but I simply get no data.
On older Sprint phones, I know you can go into the DEBUG menu to see that EVDO/3G was actually being authenticated, the handshake was negotiated, then connection type/speed/tower/hand-off status, etc. Is there such an option with Verizon phones? I'm wondering if Data is completely shut off without the SIM, or if the data connection is actually established on the network but simply blocked from being used?
PS - per recommendation I have tried using the PHONE INFO app to switch the option to NV only, but am still getting no data. Voice/Text work perfectly.
black7 said:
Is there a way to use the phone without a SIM card? I don't have LTE in my area, and I keep getting the "no SIM Error" so was thinking that the SIM was useless anyways.
On the stock ROM every time I get the SIM error, or if I remove the SIM card itself, I get no data on the phone at all. When I try to turn on Mobile Data it prompts me to insert the SIM.
On other CUSTOM or JB ROMs, I don't get the SIM error prompt but I simply get no data.
On older Sprint phones, I know you can go into the DEBUG menu to see that EVDO/3G was actually being authenticated, the handshake was negotiated, then connection type/speed/tower/hand-off status, etc. Is there such an option with Verizon phones? I'm wondering if Data is completely shut off without the SIM, or if the data connection is actually established on the network but simply blocked from being used?
PS - per recommendation I have tried using the PHONE INFO app to switch the option to NV only, but am still getting no data. Voice/Text work perfectly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ASFAIK, the SIM does 3g and 4g. WHY? because 3g on the gs3 is ehrdp and that also requires a handshake between 3g and lte. I believe it is like using 3g tech but with the pipeline size of lte... or thats as far as I've read into it.
xicewallx said:
ASFAIK, the SIM does 3g and 4g. WHY? because 3g on the gs3 is ehrdp and that also requires a handshake between 3g and lte. I believe it is like using 3g tech but with the pipeline size of lte... or thats as far as I've read into it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the info, xicewallx. I was afraid of that, however I've read of people flashing both Sprint and Verizon variants of the SGS3 to Boost, Straight Talk (CDMA), Verizon Pre-Paid which all I assume do not use LTE/SIM. I presume this means that the SGS3 can certainly use 3G without the need of the SIM card. I'm looking for a way to default to this on the SGS3 for us poor folk who do not have the luxury of LTE yet and have to deal with the SIM error until Verizon/Samsung fixes it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
I was able to get to a debug screen using the IOTHiddenMenu option (through Any Cut) but it simply stated that EVDO was in "sleep state." I wasn't able to figure out how to get it to start a connection yet.
Go to the Verizon store and get a free SIM card? Why go through all of this trouble.
Sent from my Nexus 7
TheBiles said:
Go to the Verizon store and get a free SIM card? Why go through all of this trouble.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the suggestion. Issue is that the phone is having the NO SIM error randomly. Have already tried a different SIM from Verizon (friend's account) but still have that same issue.
black7 said:
Thanks for the suggestion. Issue is that the phone is having the NO SIM error randomly. Have already tried a different SIM from Verizon (friend's account) but still have that same issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So get a new phone? That one is obviously faulty. Go get a free replacement. You have to live with it for 2 years. I wouldn't want a faulty device for a week let alone 2 years.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Are you in a poor signal area? Only time I've received the "No Sim" error was at my parents where the signal is crap. As for using it without the sim card, doubt that's possible since the sim is used for authentication if I'm not mistaken.
hello,
if i understand correctly, the sim card in the S3 is basically the same as all the previous world phones, meaning its just RUIM card. The MEID and IMEI are on the phone, the card it comes with is just basically a storage device in simple terms. can someone who has access to another verizon active S3 sim try putting the card into their phone and checking the IMEI that the phone reports? does swapping the cards change the IMEI in other words. I do not think it will, but interested to know for sure.
i just started playing with one of these, but i feel realy confident you can get non 4G services to work without a sim in it.
cheers,
disco
disco_y2k said:
hello,
if i understand correctly, the sim card in the S3 is basically the same as all the previous world phones, meaning its just RUIM card. The MEID and IMEI are on the phone, the card it comes with is just basically a storage device in simple terms. can someone who has access to another verizon active S3 sim try putting the card into their phone and checking the IMEI that the phone reports? does swapping the cards change the IMEI in other words. I do not think it will, but interested to know for sure.
i just started playing with one of these, but i feel realy confident you can get non 4G services to work without a sim in it.
cheers,
disco
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have it just about backwords. The sim is the real identifier on vzw 4g devices. You can take a working authorized sim and use it to activate another 4g Verizon phone and it will activate under the phone number associated with the sim.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
thats interesting, S3 still has an MEID also doesnt it?
thanks for the info!
cheers,
disco
disco_y2k said:
thats interesting, S3 still has an MEID also doesnt it?
thanks for the info!
cheers,
disco
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is still an ESN /MEID that the network uses to identify the phone for the CDMA side of the network. The process is all handled by the LTE SIM on LTE phones, though.
OP: You have a broken phone. The no-SIM error is not something that goes away. Take it to a store and get a new SIM and/or order a replacement.
Sent from my Amazon Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
im gonna have to dig in some more i am still not convinced the card is not a ruim card. like the other sprint and verizon world fones the imea is in the fone im pretty sure, until you instroduce another networks actual gsm card. i still the card it comes with is a simple ruim that holds the login info and other data, etc, well you know what ruim is.
does anyone have a service manual or white papers on this one yet? i would love to read through them.
thanks again bro
cheers,
disco
I'm still looking for an answer to this if anyone has any suggestions. Any way to get 3G without a SIM card?
Did you ever get a new phone from Verizon? It seems like an issue with your phone, not the network.
I have been trying something similar along the way as I have been able to get rock solid data by switching to EvDo only using the Phone Info app.
I gave determined I am connecting to a US Cellular tower when I have solid data.
But while in EvDo only I cannot send or receive calls or texts.
I am looking for a way to enable calls and text while in EvDo only mode.
Not trying to highjack just thought this is somewhat related.
TheBiles said:
Did you ever get a new phone from Verizon? It seems like an issue with your phone, not the network.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
New phone and new SIM from Verizon seems to have made the problem less apparent, but it still happens, especially when driving through areas where reception is a bit spotty. It's really become an issue as I rely on getting emails for business, especially while traveling, and I don't get notifications of new emails if I have no data service which I don't become aware of until I actually look at the phone. Missed a couple of important emails/meeting invites because of this already...
Brenardo said:
I have been trying something similar along the way as I have been able to get rock solid data by switching to EvDo only using the Phone Info app.
I gave determined I am connecting to a US Cellular tower when I have solid data.
But while in EvDo only I cannot send or receive calls or texts.
I am looking for a way to enable calls and text while in EvDo only mode.
Not trying to highjack just thought this is somewhat related.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be fantastic if you come across something that will allow voice/text/EvDO(3G)! Have you made any headway on this? Would be glad to help in any way I can also to get this working.
black7 said:
I'm still looking for an answer to this if anyone has any suggestions. Any way to get 3G without a SIM card?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I flashed a VZW GS3 to Sprint. 3G data is working fine w/o a SIM card. If I put a non activated VZW card, data doesn't work obviously.
The trick in getting this to work is to use QPST to configure Profile 0 and Profile 1. When flashing to Sprint or Boost, you must also load a Sprint PRL into the device using QPST.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
AlpineMan said:
I flashed a VZW GS3 to Sprint. 3G data is working fine w/o a SIM card. If I put a non activated VZW card, data doesn't work obviously.
The trick in getting this to work is to use QPST to configure Profile 0 and Profile 1. When flashing to Sprint or Boost, you must also load a Sprint PRL into the device using QPST.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Xparent SkyBlue Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Choose nv only, cdma evdo in phone info and program nv items and flash prl.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
jclendineng said:
Choose nv only, cdma evdo in phone info and program nv items and flash prl.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A little off subject but I how did you get it on sprint I'm trying to get mine on verizon prepaid and have it set to nv only. I must be missing somethin because my esn/meid all look right I get data but yet no calls
I was all excited to get the Verizon JB update because of the rumoured "Global Mode", thinking I'd be able to pop in a SIM card from a different provider when travelling overseas.
However, gauging from comments on other forums, it seems that Verizon still keeps the phone locked, and allows only voice connection when the user goes on a different network when travelling outside of the US... Obviously, it won't work with competitors' network such as AT&T or T-Mobile...
The general consensus ( I won't be travelling for 5 weeks so I can't confirm this ) is that there isn't a way to enter the APN when a new SIM card is inserted and the users are only able to make phone calls with the new cell provider, but no data connections are feasible.
Can someone please chime it? Have you been successful in using data connection on your Verizon SG3 when travelling overseas? If so, how did you manage to enter the APN setting?
any input is greatly appreciated...
cheers,
James.
james changstein said:
I was all excited to get the Verizon JB update because of the rumoured "Global Mode", thinking I'd be able to pop in a SIM card from a different provider when travelling overseas.
However, gauging from comments on other forums, it seems that Verizon still keeps the phone locked, and allows only voice connection when the user goes on a different network when travelling outside of the US... Obviously, it won't work with competitors' network such as AT&T or T-Mobile...
The general consensus ( I won't be travelling for 5 weeks so I can't confirm this ) is that there isn't a way to enter the APN when a new SIM card is inserted and the users are only able to make phone calls with the new cell provider, but no data connections are feasible.
Can someone please chime it? Have you been successful in using data connection on your Verizon SG3 when travelling overseas? If so, how did you manage to enter the APN setting?
any input is greatly appreciated...
cheers,
James.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Download APN Global from the play store, once the international SIM is inserted, run the program and it should pull in the needed APN info....I've not tried it, only read about it on other forums.....so good luck
Follow the instructions here and you'll be good to go
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1809314
[GUIDE] Set up Verizon Galaxy S3 as World GSM Phone (confirmed working)
Sent from my SPH-L710 using xda premium
Please read forum rules before posting
Questions go in Q&A
Thread moved
I am traveling to Canada, will use Rogers or other GSM network.
Can I simply switch sim card to use my phone on those network?
I only need to make phone call, and occasionally texting. I do NOT need data. I have seen people here discussion changing APN, are those discussion purely about how to use data?
I live in Canada, have a Verizon S3. I use it without switching sim cards without any problems. I do however have Canada calling on my plan. You can ad Canada to your plan for 15$ you'll get 1000 min I don't know about txt I'm on an old plan so it's somewhat different than what you might get. Try calling costumer service first b4 you go switching sims.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
ubcxzhang said:
I am traveling to Canada, will use Rogers or other GSM network.
Can I simply switch sim card to use my phone on those network?
I only need to make phone call, and occasionally texting. I do NOT need data. I have seen people here discussion changing APN, are those discussion purely about how to use data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Switching the Sim card should do the trick as its already unlocked
djteotancolis said:
Switching the Sim card should do the trick as its already unlocked
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought the same, but what are these people discussing? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1809314
Lehocki said:
I live in Canada, have a Verizon S3. I use it without switching sim cards without any problems. I do however have Canada calling on my plan. You can ad Canada to your plan for 15$ you'll get 1000 min I don't know about txt I'm on an old plan so it's somewhat different than what you might get. Try calling costumer service first b4 you go switching sims.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not on Verizon, I use this phone for Pageplus. This probably is not a option for me.
I just went to Ireland and was able to switch the sim and use it as a gsm phone. Only issue is, unless you have it rooted, you can't change the APN, so you'll get calls and texts fine, but you won't get data at all. If you Root your phone though, then you can dl some simple APN changing app that will allow you to put in whatever custom settings for whatever carrier your new sim is with. Hope that helps.
Thanks! This is exactly what I want.
I have rooted my phone, but I will not change APN, since I only use call and text.
johnwilliame said:
I just went to Ireland and was able to switch the sim and use it as a gsm phone. Only issue is, unless you have it rooted, you can't change the APN, so you'll get calls and texts fine, but you won't get data at all. If you Root your phone though, then you can dl some simple APN changing app that will allow you to put in whatever custom settings for whatever carrier your new sim is with. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey all! Long time lurker, first time poster. Is anyone working on running the Nexus 5 on multiple networks? Specifically, Sprint and Tmobile?
I don't see why this wouldn't work right off the bat. In my head, the radios are present and sprint uses the imei number instead of a Sim card. So shouldn't it work similar to a dual Sim phone?
My hope is to keep my $30 T-Mobile plan and add FreedomPop as my source for free minutes when in a sprint area.
I'd love to hear from everyone, my searching couldn't find anything but if your googlefu is better than mine please help!
Thanks,
Matt
TerkyTime said:
Hey all! Long time lurker, first time poster. Is anyone working on running the Nexus 5 on multiple networks? Specifically, Sprint and Tmobile?
I don't see why this wouldn't work right off the bat. In my head, the radios are present and sprint uses the imei number instead of a Sim card. So shouldn't it work similar to a dual Sim phone?
My hope is to keep my $30 T-Mobile plan and add FreedomPop as my source for free minutes when in a sprint area.
I'd love to hear from everyone, my searching couldn't find anything but if your googlefu is better than mine please help!
Thanks,
Matt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I never thought about this before but now that you mention it, it could be pretty cool to have access to two LTE networks if one of them is being slow. Sprint want a ICC security SIM card in the phone though, not sure if you could bypass this or use the phone without it anyway.
You need a sim card for spring LTE and voice/data on T-Mobile, and there is only one sim slot.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Thanks for the quick replies guys! I'm still very interested in it, perhaps you are right that the security Sim could be bypassed. I'd love this to gain some traction, this would be an incredibly unique feature to boast!
The phone doesn't have dual radios to even accommodate this anyway. So even if you were somehow able to activate it with a TMO SIM and on Sprint (which alone would take a ton of ROM hacking), you still physically couldn't talk to both networks. The radio would need to pick one or the other. It can't just flip flop at will, it has to set up the connection with the tower and maintain it.
I disagree. If you were to activate it on sprint, you could use it without the sprint Sim... You just would not get LTE. So technically you could activate it on Sprint (as you don't activate the phone on T-Mobile just the sim).
It would be cool if we could bypass the sprint Sim necessity.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
This won't work because when connected to LTE on Sprint it uses eCSFB to fall back to 1x to accept the call. This happens over the LTE connection. If you're connected to tmobile LTE, there's no way for it to tell you you have a call incoming from Sprint's network.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
afazel said:
This won't work because when connected to LTE on Sprint it uses eCSFB to fall back to 1x to accept the call. This happens over the LTE connection. If you're connected to tmobile LTE, there's no way for it to tell you you have a call incoming from Sprint's network.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So do you think it could feasibly work as a simple menu option choice, or a widget to switch networks? I personally use Google Voice so receiving calls would happen in whichever network happens to be connected
TerkyTime said:
So do you think it could feasibly work as a simple menu option choice, or a widget to switch networks? I personally use Google Voice so receiving calls would happen in whichever network happens to be connected
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you actually have to switch the SIM. Once it's registered to Sprint with a SIM, then swapping that SIM for another carrier's SIM completely switches it over. Then, when you want to use Sprint again, you put your Sprint SIM back.
afazel said:
No, you actually have to switch the SIM. Once it's registered to Sprint with a SIM, then swapping that SIM for another carrier's SIM completely switches it over. Then, when you want to use Sprint again, you put your Sprint SIM back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TerkyTime said:
So do you think it could feasibly work as a simple menu option choice, or a widget to switch networks? I personally use Google Voice so receiving calls would happen in whichever network happens to be connected
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess what terky meant is he will forward calls to two numbers in Google voice settings ( let's say T-Mobile and freedompop) and then whichever network will be active will receive the call. So you will still be receiving the call.
Sounds logical but it has to be tried.
I see freedompop's website now accepts meid numbers. But my concern is; will activating the nexus 5's meid number on freedompop block using the gsm functionality of the phone??
If not, it would be just terrific!!
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
h20wakebum said:
I disagree. If you were to activate it on sprint, you could use it without the sprint Sim... You just would not get LTE. So technically you could activate it on Sprint (as you don't activate the phone on T-Mobile just the sim).
It would be cool if we could bypass the sprint Sim necessity.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
afazel said:
This won't work because when connected to LTE on Sprint it uses eCSFB to fall back to 1x to accept the call. This happens over the LTE connection. If you're connected to tmobile LTE, there's no way for it to tell you you have a call incoming from Sprint's network.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Vincent Law said:
The phone doesn't have dual radios to even accommodate this anyway. So even if you were somehow able to activate it with a TMO SIM and on Sprint (which alone would take a ton of ROM hacking), you still physically couldn't talk to both networks. The radio would need to pick one or the other. It can't just flip flop at will, it has to set up the connection with the tower and maintain it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TerkyTime said:
So do you think it could feasibly work as a simple menu option choice, or a widget to switch networks? I personally use Google Voice so receiving calls would happen in whichever network happens to be connected
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So with the new Android 5.1 update, which now supports dual sim, (I know guys N5 only has one sim card slot) do you think it would be easier to do this?
My idea is to get a freedompop service with the imei number, just registering the phone online and you dont physically need a sim card from them. And lets say we use another sim card ( Att, tmob, etc) to use. So basically we would have two service providers.
And from my point of view; i wouldnt need both of their services at the same time. Lets say i want to use freedompop first, and whenever it expires, I can switch to my other carrier manually.
Any thoughts on this?
Brainstorming?!?!?!