Related
I've been seeing a lot of hostility & berating in the Kaiser forum lately. A lot of it stems from noobies with posts about things that have already been resolved, or about fearfully wanting to flash a new ROM.
A lot of the people with the really advanced CE knowledge are always busy & subtracting from their time affects all of us because they have less time to innovate & create.
I was thinking what if we created a new Sub-forum for Noobies with issues or with a desire to flash, but not the knowledge. We could have a few people there as Mods or some sort of assistant mod as a clearing house for the noobies that are coming everyday.
This could be a introduction to XDA & a way for the Noobie to learn good community principles & basic beginer knowledge. Learn how to post, search & where & how to find the information they need. A way to break them in, with a few patient people helping & guiding them.
If there were more serious issues you would then only have one or two persons bugging everyone else, (& the gods like Oli, Jocky, Dutty, Chainfire, & all the others I'm forgeting) instead of every noobie with the same question every day.
I am up for doing something like this, I've learned a lot here, & I'm sure one or two others would also be willing to give some of their time to make this place better.
With the tools available through IM & File Sharing thru MSN Messenger, I think we could cut the number of duplicate posts, & flame responses in half easily making it easier for everyone to find the information they need.
What do you think?
1. Is a noobie flashing & problem sub-forum a good idea?
2. Are you willing to help out & give back?
Yes and Yes
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
That won't fix the problem. Why? The n00bs that post repeatedly answered questions don't read...and if they don't read then they'll post in the wrong forum because they "didn't know any better"...
This comes back to the same thing I've said all along...you can't fix stupid. Yes, we were all n00bs at one point. In many ways we will always be n00bs because tech changes so fast. But the majority of us take the time to read and research a bit to make sure the question hasn't been asked or to make sure we have all the information we need before embarking on the addictive ride of ROM Flashing. The ones that aren't willing to do that will most likely not bother asking questions in the n00b forum...they'll just post away in the Upgrading forum without a care in the world.
I understand the frustration with seeing so many of us lose it and unleash the fury of a thousand flames upon the unsuspecting n00b...and I apologize for my part in that...sorta...because I think they do deserve to have their brains bashed in by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick for not reading...
Agree with jarek91, can't fix stupid, just have to hope that they evolve quick enough to not be a consistent nuisance or hope they end up on the darwin awards email.
well, if we keep ignoring, soon, we'll get tire and stop coming here because the forum is flooded w/ noob questions (those questions have been answered numerous of time). They start the question with "I've searched, but could NOT find anything" eventhough the answer is in the stickies just above their questions.
BTW, before you criticize me, GSLEON3, or anyone for supporting the new sub forum for newbie, remember that, this forums is xda-developers, we develop and share knowledge. We welcome noob, but dont want to spend too much time with noob questions (most of the time I ignore )
xultar said:
Every forum goes through this crap whenever a new flashing starts. Just realise that you were a noob once and get over it.
Just ignore noob posts if you don't want to help them.
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I DO REALIZE THAT! I'm talking about centralizing it & am willing to help. I don't think that this is part of "Every Forum", this is the Kaiser Forum & includes the best & brightest from XDA. So why not make it a different forum, set it apart from the others & make it a better community through helping others. I think this would not only help the noobie, but everyone as a whole would benefit because the upgrading forum would be less cluttered making the search function actually usable to the new guy that doesn't undestand how to narrow his searches.
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
GSLEON3 said:
I understand about not reading, but they'd learn quickly if they see they only get answers if they go to the big bold "NOOBIES START HERE" forum. Especially if there's a sticky that says "Your post WILL be DELETED unless".
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There was a stickie?
Which is exactly how that would be met. (So I'm a pessimist...)
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
met3ora said:
We've all asked "n00b" questions, and we should be allowed to do so. If you make a forum called "n00b questions" the same people who don't read the stickies will STILL post in the main forum, and say they didn't see the "n00b questions" forum.
It's unavoidable, and the best thing we can do is help the people who ask these questions by telling them to search, but also providing them the answer, so that they learn and get their answer.
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Click to collapse
I still ask dumb questions from time to time. My intent is not to slam the new guy, quite the opposite actually. I'm talking about a sub-forum where they can find the answer & a little support to some of the most common questions & issues that arise when entering the world of Flashing & Upgrading.
A place where a few willing people can hook up with the new comer & use tools klike IM & filesharing to walk the new guy through flashing & problem solving, kind of hands on instruction where you can walk the timid newcomer through his issues while using the tools to show him, through his own action, how to figure things out. Again, a sort of less advanced clearing house of sorts. Not a place of punishment for being new, but more of a "Welcome to XDA, figuring this stuff out can be fun & exciting, let me show you how" type of a place.
I like the noobie, & I really like the noobie that has a "I think my phone is bricked" challenge. I just think it would be a nice touch to have a place for the new guy to go where he could not just find the answers, but the reasoning behind them.
I also know that many don't read the stickies, but people do read the forum headers, the name of the forum & sub-forum, & if they saw "This is the place to get answers about how to flash & fix flash issues, that is where he's gonna go. Everybody else has been here long enough to know that if they have a major contribution, where it should be posted.
It would be like tiered service, most noobie problems are similar & can be handled there, if something more advanced pops up, or a bug detemined to affect many, then the mod or admin bumps it up to the next level.
Oh, & mcmexican you think everyone's an idiot
Maybe this is material for a new thread, but...
I think we should use a new wiki.
1. The wiki software used here is pretty bad.
2. The wiki here takes up bandwidth.
Using something like wetpaint.com (there are many others) provides a place that's different from here, using someone else's bandwidth.
Also, they have easier-to-edit wiki's. I think the more attractive, organized, and navigable the wiki is, the less newbie problems we'll have.
nevermind...
I think the subforum sounds like an excellent idea. I'm not nearly an expert but have done some flashing and so on and would gladly help out if I have the time. Only problem as I can see is that it will be hard to draw the line between the "noob forum" and the regular one.
i am trying for ten minutes to put my thoughts into words...English is not my native language. i hope i am gonna be able to make myself understood...
here is how to do it:
1. create something like a gate or tunnel where newbies have to go through. some thing, where they cant right away post something. they can read.
and if they want to post a tread, they have to go through some kind of selection menu or so. just like on ebay when you want to sell something.
so lets say someone wants to post a tread, there is a selection of main toppings they have to go through. and so on. till they get automatically redirected to the answer of what they were going to ask in the first place...
they are forced to go through some kind of multiple choice thing...
2. i think its super annoying when someone like dutty brings out a new ROM and you want to read through it, to find out what might be wrong with it, just to read a million people saying: cool man, thanks dude blablabla.
don't get me wrong. i love his ROMs. but i should sent him a pm or create a poll thing so people vote on how much they like it. his treads reach easily 2000 replies. 1900 are thank you notes...
thanks dutty,
georgios
I agree. The same people not searching the forums, nor reading stickies, the Wiki, or any FAQ's will post in the regular forums anyway. I think when you get some of these people new to the forum there is so much information they get overwhelmed and just ask in the first place they find.
In another forum I'm a member of we have people asking Verizon questions in the AT&T forum, people asking about CDMA phones in the GSM forum, and such. We really divided it up... there are separate forums for each carrier, and forums for each of the major device manufacturers, then there's the Motorola forum with the Razr subfourm, and then there's the CDMA models and GSM model subforums under that. The vague questions still come... "I want to hack my phone, how do I do that???" When you finally get them to reply back with the model and carrier they have they have almost always posted in the wrong forum.
I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds like a good idea, but the problem will still be there, and seem even worse, because those that post first and read the FAQ's later (If at all) will be posting in the main forum anyway.
-Jay
I am a brand new guy to the board and have only had my Tilt little over a week and have really enjoyed testing and learning all this stuff that a ton of you guys have already mastered. I like the idea of giving us new guys a area where we can try and hash things out ourselves. When you are new you don't mind if guys ask the same questions you just ask 10 mins ago, but I know that must be a pain in the butt to some of the more skilled and seasoned guys around here. I believe if you just leave us on our own where we can go back and read what you guys have already posted for us and then come back and ask questions that we might still have between ourselves then we will figure it out soon enough and lets face it, that is how we all learn. Just my 2 cents, but please make sure you pros do stop by and check on us ever so often so we don't blow up the mobile phone world.
Thanks,
JMan
I like the sub-forum idea. Just to point out, Modaco does something like this... they have a beginner forum. Not that xda has to be like Modaco, but there is a precedent for this...
Absolute Beginners
New to Windows Mobile? New to MoDaCo? Lost and don't know where to start? Post in here and a member of our team will point you in the right direction, and move your post to the appropriate area!
http://www.modaco.com/forum.html
You could make people who like to direct and assist others as the moderators of this forum to act as traffic cops... so to speak. This will leave the cooks to focus on doing great ROMs.
I have a question for a Mod or Admin if they read this... maybe the search problem is a admin setting problem. Can someone verify that vBulletin Search to FULLTEXT inside the admincp of vBulletin?
There are also ways to embed google search into the forum:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=171042
why not create a new one?
I'm new to the forum, and honestly did not fully understand the title of the forum till now - that the forum was primarily for hard core developers. Given the success and ease of Google, we find a gold mine like xda, and fall in love.
So since there is a Kaiser, Kaiser upgrading, and Kaiser Accessories, why can't there be a Kaiser for rookies (took me a while to figure out what what a noob was). That might be a way for us lesser ones ( juniors) to talk, and the genius's out there (seniors) dont subscribe ! Then u would have every right to FLAME anyone on the upgrading forum. Plus we may be more willing to jump in and answer without the guru's watching.
my 2 cents
I think a noobie forum is a good idea. I too have seen alot of hostility towards "stupid" or repeat questions. While I am not exactly a noobie, I still have a dumb question every now and then, that's just the way it goes when one is learning I guess. I often can't find things when I search, when you are very new this is especially hard, because sometimes you don't even know what to search for.
I have received excellent help here from many kind people, and just don't know what I would have done without this forum. But even I, who am not a COMPLETE noobie, got made fun of the other day by a poster, because after reading something several times, I missed something on a page. The poster not only posted twice to point out my stupidity, but even took the time and energy to create a photoshop graphic to show what an idiot I was for missing the information. I thought it was sad that attitude was taken. I ALWAYS go out of my way to help others, with what limited knowledge I have. I often receive PMs of can you help me..., and I try my best to explain things as clearly as I can.
I totally understand that there are many here, who are way too advanced for questions like "how do I make my today look like yours?" And I would never expect them to spend time answering, when there time would be much better spent on more advanced things (and I'm not being sarcastic at all, I really do completely understand more advanced members should spend their time on more advanced things). There are some of us here with some knowledge able to help those with simple questions, so I'd say maybe people who are bothered by others posts, could just ignore the dumb questions. LOL, I've never even flashed a ROM (too chicken and broke to void my warranty), but I sure can put together a great looking and functioning Today screen. An I surely know how to install every tweak and cab to make my phone function as efficiently as possible. And, I will be more than happy to answer questions of that caliber
Maybe a noobie forum could cut down on some of the hostility, and we could help out beginners. I for one would be more than willing to answer any questions that I am capable of answering, and leave those who are more knowledgeable to deal with the hard stuff
OK so i know this is the wrong forum, BUT I came across this and wanted to "bump" it so to speak. This was posted by kyphur in 08 and in a mods sig now. Please read and adhere to the spirit of the post. It is RIGHT ON!!!
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
the idea is not that only developers should be looking at this site, but that this is a place where developers communicate with each other and the beneficiaries of their work. This is not the place for someone to post threads about general questions about how to use or mod their device. This is a place that will develop the capabilities of the android platform if it is allowed. Developers WILL abandon this forum if it becomes a bulletin board or a technical support site.....and if you need a question answered, there are other forums on THIS site to address those.
Agreed 100%. While developing for the Windows mobile, I also got the same thing. I would post a thread and WARN people of a certain things and tell them how to fix it. Then I'd get 30 pages of "geeze, you broke something. how do you fix it?" That gets annoying real fast. I would love it if this forum forced people to take a test before they could post in the development sections... Before that, they should only be able to post in the regular sections.
One thing that really bugs me is the fact that the newbs don't want to search but don't realize that they take OUR time to search FOR them. No one knows everything. Every developer on this site searches and learns. I know that if you put together all the time that I've spent on this site JUST researching and searching, it'd be MONTHS and MONTHS of non-stop, no sleep searching and researching. So why can't the average person search for 2 minutes? Is their time worth more than my time?
/rant - while talking on the phone so it might not make sense...
Pinesal said:
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
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There are thousands, but essentially all they do is copy stuff off here.
Like the post said, if you just want to root your phone so it can do 'cool stuff' and not give a **** about how the damn thing works then maybe you shouldn't be modding your phone (that wasn't aimed at you btw, just 'people' in general the market place is made up of 99% 'these people' who don't/can't read and it's pretty irritating.)
Agree with the post 100%, fantastic
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
Agreed. It's really, really, really, really getting to me. I wish OP's had semi-moderator power. They could at least delete all necessary posts and ban that user - if required- for a certain amount of time from their thread only.
jubeh said:
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
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Click to collapse
ughh, no i'm not an admin, and no almost all my posts, or the majority, or a half are reported threads, but i do try to help out the mods when i can. they are not on all forums at all times and can use the help, and they have said as much.
Oh thank you thank you! People here should want to understand why thing the work as they work. Not just want their phones to look cool.
As it you wouldnt know it, i have been with xda for years well since the titan came out. before that i was modding an ipaq and of course the old palms. everyonce in awhile i lose interest and move on only to come back when i have something new(major a.d.d). i do write java as well as c and even c++(so on) i typically find this place useful to try stuff out and even set up my own custom rom just for me. i dont post because i can google. while i have many of my own questions i would like answered i simply dont ask most of the time(such as using micro kernels and modding app2sd to make the os have two options sd in or out. however the problem is not the generations or age difference or anything like that. its social systems outside of xda. posting a reply used to mean an answer or something useful. now its normal to simply post "great job". thats nice and all but maybe instead of complaining about it we should come up with a new system that improves xda. like a sorting system or sub thread system and set up catagorys for our replys. like thumbs up would be for the "good job". i know its hard to keep everyone happy but this is a forum first, a forum has design problems when you get the number of people xda has. use advanced search it helps a lot. a sorting system with requirements for certain catagorys would help devs. its not easy modding and getting it right and you cant do it alone. xda is the help even if its not your phone sometimes others have solutions too. such as winmo users putting android on their phones(yes i did it too my old titan for fun). things i learned and other devs learn can help us and vice versa. i have yet to find bad technology only poorly thought out ideas that could have been. which is why we mod.
p.s. wtf is up with palm and blackberry ads all the time.
Most of those kids just want the answer or fix in the next 3min. with perfect steps or a patch that supposedly will fix and hack their device,after that they´ll never show up.
All they want is to show off without bothering to read.
I totaly understand. I do feel sometimes that certain devs do get a bit annoyed with people who just want to fix the phone and not understand. I'm not linux or coding wiz. But whe I got here in may I was one of the people who just wanted me phone to be better than urs. I still have that to some extent but I have developed more of a "how and what is causeing this issue" attitude. I try to contribute as best as I can. Helping out over at q&a as best as I can. I enjoy xda and without my days would be more boring than what the are now. I dunno I guess I'm just rambling. Bottom line is I have tried to correct my attitude toward modding. Hell I even post my email so users can drop a line if they need help.
i am 20 and i fondly remember blowing into my nes super nes and genesis games.
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
saprano614 said:
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
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nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
jaaronmoody said:
nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
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Just want to make a statement befor someone did.
I thank you for this post. I came to this forum a long time ago I have learned quite a bit and appreciate everything that is done here. There are very skillful people that are on here and I wish I had the amount of skill then thesemodders, hackers, developers etc... have I keep my mouth shut unless i feel there is some thing that i know how to answer, i have never complained about a single rom i simply research what can be done to change for fix it, all answers rely in a search somewhere either here or google. I just wish other people would do the same then we would be able to prevent a 300+ page threads where only about 25 pages are worth anything.
look at the amount of posts from someone who knows they are barley able to contrubute(but do what he can) and been here this long. compared to people who have been here dont have much to contribute but love to post everything that comes to thier minds.
Join Date
22nd October 2006
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samygent said:
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY!
im 18 and clearly remember blowing into those damn games to make them work. but when they worked, so much fun i still think theyre better than the crappy xbox and ps3 games of today... but thats just me. lol
pleeease yall! let's keep THIS thread on topic! LOL!!
We have all either seen or experienced someone telling us or someone else (especially noobs) to use the *** search engine. The problem is that these boards are immense and you have to know the specific words or tags other people are using to describe the issue you are researching or you will end up with no results or far too many. (And results don't necessarily mean solutions.) This is even more complicated by the fact that this forum includes members from across the world who have differing native languages and when translated into English, they create many different varieties of expression.
Bottom line: let's be nice, because we all were once noobs and we all know how hard it is sometimes to find answers to specific problems.
The reason for xda-developers' success is the fact that we have a good group of people here who are generous enthusiasts sharing their expertise. Cluttering the boards with "Use the *** search" not only makes it that much harder to find information, it also creates ill will that will eventually cause our entire community to suffer.
If you don't believe me ask the folks at mytreo.net. It used to be a thriving community but arrogant sods who felt they owned the place started ragging on noobs and developing their own little cliques. The mods got in on it too and pretty soon mtdn was down the toilet.
A community is defined by how it treats its lowliest members: Save the noob, save the forum.
well what do you need help with?
TC,
I honestly believe that a lot of things can be found through the search engine. I've solved a lot of my own problems simply by looking around and doing my own searching. If cookers can keep spending their own free time releasing ROMs and stuff, I see no reason why newbies can not spend just as much time using the search engine thoroughly in order to try different keywords.
The search engine is messed up most of the time, but it also doesn't take too much time to try going through the pages.
Cheers.
Well if anyone knows about a thread that contains the solution why not point it out? However I won't search in the place of the other guy.
I say if you don't know how to research what you want to do with your phone, then don't even bother messing with it
I have to say that using the search engine is as longs effective and possible if you know the right englich term for what you are searching. For example, I'm german, I sometimes just don't know how something is called in english or even might be called in bad english (not good oxford english is the most spoken language, it's more a bad english with many "special" terms). So how are certain things called? This is a huge problem for noobs and esp. if you are a non english speaking noob. Often you can't translate the terms directly from your language into another.
"these boards are immense" that is the key point
... AMEN! We were all noobs at EVERYTHING at one time or other; just like in my job - it's very easy to look down on the new Graduate nurses shaking in their shiny white Crocs, and laugh at how "stupid" they all seem --- until we sit down & realise that "I was like that once...". I'm not saying that noobs can be brain-dead and suck off of those who are more experienced -- they all still need to possess some basic knowledge and search skills -- but by the same token, we shouldn't feel we need to give them all the "RTFM" kind of line, either.
The board are immense, and though I don't consider myself much of a noob anymore (second HTC device, 5th WinMo device in 7 years, background in IT prior to nursing), for me I can fairly much figure out that if I wanna search on stuff for my brand-new HTC Pure, I should be trying out AT&T, ATT, HTC, Pure, Topaz, Warbird... need I go on? But not everyone out there thinks that specifically as a noob, but given time & experience, I think we all learn what works & what doesn't.
What SHOULD work is that even if a question was answered in the past, we still should be gracious enough to understand that not everyone new is going to think to ask the question in the same way that helped it get answered the first time round.
Just like in many fields of life, I think it's true in XDA as well -- no matter how smart you are, and how much you know -- there's always someone who knows more than you about something... and everyone will be better off by sharing the knowledge, even if you've shared it before.
- BereanPK
although i agree we all ask stupid questions and the majority of new users dont search but the reasoning behind us asking them to search is for the following reasons
1, this site isn't for tech support, the one forum dedicated to helping is the q&a forum and this does the job very nicely, so all new members who randomly plaster questions across the entire site will be informed of this
2, sometimes if a person asks a question and someone is kind enough to help the asker then expects a service, this can late to a temper if the question wasnt answered in 3 seconds, people using size 10 fonts with big red letters just in case we missed it the first time. this will then lead to flaming from older members and then the moderator team having to hand out warnings and bans. Also if someone does help the asker then sometimes the asker starts harassing the helper to the point of creepiness.
3, one of the rules and general forms of forum etiquette is to search before starting a new thread. if its obvious that someone hasn't followed the rules and they are posting up a million questions a day in every forum they will have to be dealt with.
sorry for the rant
im just letting you know why we ask you to search and also know that the mods here are a TEAM and non development cliques are frowned upon
... another amen for the MOD...
I see both points here. Noobs do need to learn how to search -- that's just part of the game with any forum, not just this one. And I've seen it myself where people have asked a question that more experienced people think is a no-brainer, asked-and-answered, then the asker expects that kind of relationship will simply continue without ever expecting the asker to gain knowledge him/herself, do some trial-and-error (like no doubt we all have), learn what works & what doesn't, and become experienced.
Those kind of sponges may, perhaps, deserve a bit of the 10pt red-boldfaced discussion on occasion.
Like you say, this forum is for much more than just "how do I do the freakin' obvious with my phone" -- HTC has enough Q&A on their support site for those kinds of questions.
But I think also hopefully more prevalent are those who need a question answered on a phone they just got, or want to tweak out, and search, find an answer, feel thankful enough to publicly comment and contribute... maybe ask a question if search first reveals not enough info, feel thankful enough to publicly comment and contribute... either way, we get a community member, not just a sponge.
I have always enjoyed coming here (though sadly not previously posting as much as I could or should have when I know something and/or have to contribute) and learning, trying, experimenting, and gaining knowledge. Hopefully everyone who comes here for the first time to find an answer to a question will feel the same way, and some hopefully catch the development bug and make things that others can benefit from.
I only wish I was more of a programmer than I used to be (I left an 18-year IT career behind to be a nurse -- silly me).
~ BereanPK
Noobs, I am far from a noob. I may have recently joined this forum, but I have been lurking it for over 2 years. I am also not a noob to the smartphone and Windows Mobile world. I have plenty of credit on Smartappsworld and Hellomotoq forums. 90% of my posts have been to helping other users. It doesn't matter if that is the 20th time I have answered the same question, I still go ahead and answer it anyway if someone else has not chimed in. If I know the answer to something, it takes very little effort to stop and type out an answer. Do I ever get frustrated or annoyed having to answer something that could be easily searched? Yes, but that still doesn't mean I have to go and tell then the rules.. or just going out and saying " There is a forum Search tool, use it" etc. Helping other users is priority number one. Being negative and rude towards other members is NOT on my list, nor do I even appreciate members who act that way.
When it comes down to finding a solution to my own problems, SEARCH is the first thing I do, always. I try to get as much info as I can possible relating to the issue at hand. And if I can't find a specific answer, or I find unrelated results, or .. I find an answer but run into more issues and my search becomes frutlstrating.. then I post a thread and hope someone knows something. Do I ever feel impatient waiting for an answer to something? Sometimes yeah, but I don't go and start posting negative comments because someone hasn't posted a response yet. It's all about timing, and where it was posted, and then if someones in a good mood. Regardless, I still wait for an answer, or if I can, try and provide more info in the thread.
I know about searching here at XDA. Sometimes finding ANY sort of related results can be a royal pain in the ass! Yeah, you know how it goes, you search for something using keywords related to your device and problem, and 60% of the results you get back are those blasted device ROM threads. No I'm not mad at the ROM threads, I get upset because they have absolutely nothing to do with what I am searching. Eventually I get tired of flicking down multiple pages and reading threads that didn't have any relevent info. I would use search more if I could get more productive results. Trying various search terms is always the way I work. I also found that using the " - " symbol is helpful.
Maybe a "Thank You " button should be added here.
So this is slightly off-topic, but I think it ties in a little bit to a question/reaction that often comes up on the board.
I regularly see people posting a new thread with questions that have been asked before, and others become upset with them for posting something that has already been answered. This then leads to annoyance/anger on both sides, as the question-asker feels bad for not finding the answer (often after searching), and the question-answerer feels frustration because the forum has another new thread for something that they feel shouldn't have to be asked again.
I found this, which is the US Coast Guard's manual dealing with making decisions in stressful situations (it's a pdf). On page 11 of the document, it describes people trying to make decisions in stressful situations. It explains that an individual in a stressful situation where real danger is present (think back to the first time something went wrong on your phone....) will tend to say that there's not enough time to solve the problem, and that the person is not able to process information efficiently. It then says that the person will deny that the problem can be solved (by them).
Translation: The phone breaks (messes up, etc). The person sees that the very expensive device they own is not working right, and they begin to panic that it might not be able to be fixed. They know that XDA is an source for answers and help, and in the panicked state, post a question without thoroughly thinking through the action.
Ok, so why am I on a soapbox about this? Two reasons:
1. I don't know about anyone else here, but I can clearly remember times where I did something to my phone that I thought I had killed it. It was a real uphill struggle to stay calm and search diligently until I found what I was looking for. I would just like everyone to think back to their own experiences like this when replying to people who seem panicked.
2. To people who are panicking because something has gone wrong: try to relax. 99% of the time, whatever is wrong with the phone can be fixed, and you've come to the largest wealth of information available about your phone. Just take a little bit longer to do a little more searching before you hit the post button. And don't be afraid to use Google outside of XDA, or to search within the thread results.
And if I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
(For more reading about stress' effect on decision-making, see this. It's the US Army Survival Manual, Chapter 2).
I vote because they are stupid.
And/or just haven't been in forums enough to understand how they work.
some people here are jerks
I vote nubs. Or just ignorance
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA Premium App
I think most of the time people just don't read up enough before flashing, they come to the site and see a ROM that they just have to get and they get in a hurry and bad things happen.
I read and read for about a month before I dared to flash and I haven't had any problems.
Now my friend comes to me every time she needs help with her phone like I know what I'm doing lol. But really I just know that the answer to any problem is here already you just have to find it.
Sent from my captivate running Speed and Looks Ginger Style
i am a noob so i know why (at least in my case)
1. should have read TRusselo's new user guide on first visit to xda
2. sometimes i search and do not find then a member shows me a thread i didnt know about thus confirming my inability to search successfully
3. some people post things in the wrong section (there is an off topic section, this is the captivate section and posting without searching is not exclusive to captivate users) this is a joke, not serious or meant to offend the |OP|
4. no knowledge of correct keywords to search (all the acronyms is like chinese to a noob) is there a xda dictionary for noobs?
5. the first thing we (noobs) do is panic. then we panic more. finally we relax...then panic again.
on behalf of all the noobs that post without searching we are sorry and as we learn more about the site we will improve upon our mistakes. please be patient with us, we appreciate your help and feel honored to be a part of this site.
We already had a thread like this. Use the search function.
Sorry about that. I'm still hunting for that link, but if you provide it, I'll update the OP.
I have discovered that I can't post up findings, observations or give thanks to the developers in the development form, because I do not have 10 posts
everything I search for I find, so no need to post.... so I am thinking some just post generic questions to get the post that they need.
But I do have to agree with the OP, when you think you killed your phone, you panic
jmtheiss said:
Sorry about that. I'm still hunting for that link, but if you provide it, I'll update the OP.
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I have a feeling that was just a joke playing on what you are posting about
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
Yep, agree with op
Explains it on a deeper level than noob, lazy, or stupid. Some posses the ability to work in stressful situations and some don't. Those need to learn how before becoming a member of xda.
You're over complicating it. Half of the problem is that the native vBulletin search feature is wimpy and doesn't often return helpful results. And of course it consumes lot of server resources, it's down about as often as it isn't, and even when it is working you can only do it once every 30 seconds if you want to revise research terms or if you make a mistake. A Google cse custom search engine might go a long way toward helping out.
Chiding users for not using search is at least a little misplaced in my opinion. Comparisons to decision-making in critical life or death stressful situations are at least a little off-base.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Rrryan2 said:
You're over complicating it. Half of the problem is that the native vBulletin search feature is wimpy and doesn't often return helpful results. And of course it consumes lot of server resources, it's down about as often as it isn't, and even when it is working you can only do it once every 30 seconds if you want to revise research terms or if you make a mistake. A Google cse custom search engine might go a long way toward helping out.
Chiding users for not using search is at least a little misplaced in my opinion. Comparisons to decision-making in critical life or death stressful situations are at least a little off-base.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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I agree with both views. I have yet to meet a v-bulletin site whose search function was worth a tinker's damn... and a number of the folks who voted "stupid" or "lazy" when it comes to someone posting a repeat question seem to forget that this is a very large forum, with tens of thousands of posts. Sometimes, finding the one post or series of posts that can be of use when you think you've just killed your $199 to $500 phone can be a bit tough.
Also, even when it's not a subject I have a vested interest in finding the answer to, I sometimes appreciate the repeat of a question that has already been asked because often someone (whose ego isn't so invested somehow proving their worth by being "right") will ever-so-kindly skip the lectures and point out threads I had no idea existed--and which I can then bookmark for later reference.
I've learned some very cool things about the care and feeding of my Captivate as a result (to say nothing of gaining more general information on a number of devices), so I'm not overly inclined to squawk when someone asks a question that's been asked before.
kevalin said:
I agree with both views. I have yet to meet a v-bulletin site whose search function was worth a tinker's damn... and a number of the folks who voted "stupid" or "lazy" when it comes to someone posting a repeat question seem to forget that this is a very large forum, with tens of thousands of posts. Sometimes, finding the one post or series of posts that can be of use when you think you've just killed your $199 to $500 phone can be a bit tough.
Also, even when it's not a subject I have a vested interest in finding the answer to, I sometimes appreciate the repeat of a question that has already been asked because often someone (whose ego isn't so invested somehow proving their worth by being "right") will ever-so-kindly skip the lectures and point out threads I had no idea existed--and which I can then bookmark for later reference.
I've learned some very cool things about the care and feeding of my Captivate as a result (to say nothing of gaining more general information on a number of devices), so I'm not overly inclined to squawk when someone asks a question that's been asked before.
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Amen to that!
z28james said:
I have a feeling that was just a joke playing on what you are posting about
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
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In the immortal words of a small Sicilian man,
"INCONCEIVABLE!"
Next let's hear your theory on pointless, off topic threads!
AJerman said:
Next let's hear your theory on pointless, off topic threads!
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And how to search for them?
I understand that here, on XDA, you get nice and civilized answers if your thanks-meter is high. My question is: Is the XDA strategy built to make users leave XDA for other communities? Or is it just that the arrogance is directly proportional with the thanks-meter?
Ruwin said:
I understand that here, on XDA, you get nice and civilized answers if your thanks-meter is high. My question is: Is the XDA strategy built to make users leave XDA for other communities? Or is it just that the arrogance is directly proportional with the thanks-meter?
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I understand that here, on XDA, you get nice and civilized answers if your thanks-meter is high.
Not really true.
Is the XDA strategy built to make users leave XDA for other communities?
There is no XDA strategy. It's just a place for people to tinker with their phones.
Or is it just that the arrogance is directly proportional with the thanks-meter?
No it is not directly proportional to the thanks meter.
There are a lot of grumpy people around though.
I think the best thing you can do is to report arrogance and hope the user gets some sort of warning. I have also witnessed some comments that were unnecessary and that could really put new users off asking questions here. That is a real shame imo.
dc211 said:
There are a lot of grumpy people around though.
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Dmwitz said:
I have also witnessed some comments that were unnecessary and that could really put new users off asking questions here.
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+1 to these, some people who are new just don't understand how the forum layouts and whatnot work, but rather than being more polite about it, the more experienced ones go off at the new people. Pretty hard for the new people to get help that way.
Tapatalked from my HTC One S running CM10
I only really see "arrogance" displayed in two fashions:
1. The occasional Dev war drama. This really only happens rarely and has settled down quite a bit since some ROM devs have moved on to other devices.
2. Noob squashing. The fact is, Android is a victim of it's own success. In the G1 days, XDA was a true home for hackers to exchange information. Now that Android has such a large worldwide marketshare, more and more folks are coming here to enhance their devices and free them from their cell provider's greed and bad decisions, regardless of their technical level. I'd bet the CM10 thread could be condensed into a one page FAQ which would eliminate hundreds of pages of repeat questions, but in reality, the types of people that frustrate us so much wouldn't even take the time to read that. The only solution here is help or ignore...flaming just triples the number of pages dedicated to a noob mistake.
You get nasty responses when you refuse to read and the question has been asked soo many times.. or you post a question in the general section... or break any rules
I've had people not read the downgrade thread and pm asking what to do.. when if you read it, you realize its nearly noob proof
Sent from my HTC One X-
I think that one of the problems is that the pros try to distance themselves from the noobs. The problem with that is that the noobs will only feel more ignored and try harder to get their voice heard. It's a problem almost all forums have, but it seems more serious here on xda than anywhere else I've been. I think much of the talent here gets wasted. Answers get hidden away deep in overly long topics and poor communication skills make things worse.
I get the feeling that many of the threads here would have worked better in wiki-form, where each issue has its own page, instead of each topic.
But these are just a noob's impression after a few days here.
el_smurfo said:
The only solution here is help or ignore...flaming just triples the number of pages dedicated to a noob mistake.
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^^^ So much this. ^^^
@OP: I don't think what you're seeing is arrogance. More likely frustration. <S>About those damn n00bs who keep pissing all over 'our' forums.</S> But flinging poop at them doesn't result in neater cleaner tidier forums.. The catch22 here is that there is no real way to tell people (noobs and grumps alike) to stop polluting the forums without engaging in forum pollution yourself.
Also, it is not related to the thanks meter. If anything, the 'thanks' feature is meant to keep the forums cleaner, by eliminating "Wow thanks!"-posts.
(Maybe we need buttons for "Wrong section!" and "Use the search!" too. Actually, we do have a button for "Wrong section!", it's labeled "/!\ Report".)
-Jobo
As was previously was stated it frustration over most issues.
If people took a few seconds to try and search or post in correct sections things would be a tiny bit easier. Though since its the internet conflicts or bad attitudes will never subside
Sent from my HTC VLE_U using xda app-developers app
JN3141 said:
+1 to these, some people who are new just don't understand how the forum layouts and whatnot work, but rather than being more polite about it, the more experienced ones go off at the new people. Pretty hard for the new people to get help that way.
Tapatalked from my HTC One S running CM10
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No reason to be polite, when the answer or rules are stickied or found on the first page. For instance, development forum is only for development, and there's a sticky emphasizing that. Try they post questions there anyway.
So while it's understandable they don't know the layout yet, they can read. If they ask a question, they'll obviously be reading the post in case is has their answer. So they can just as easily read the stickies.
Not to mention, it's always good to take a moment and read stickies or the first page, before asking questions.
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
No matter how wrong they are, you still don't need to get rude like I've seen happen. Yes, there are a lot of frustrating situations, but that still doesn't constitute the flaming. If you were new, maybe you might make a mistake like that, and wouldn't want to have people flaming you, it'd just get more confusing for you.
Tapatalked from my HTC One S running CM10
JN3141 said:
No matter how wrong they are, you still don't need to get rude like I've seen happen.
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Exactly. There is no excuse, ever. You either answer and help, or ignore, or report.
Making an unhelpful off-topic post to verbally smack someone in the face is a waaaay worse offense than posting in the wrong section or asking something that's already been asked and answered in the post right above it. It also has much more negative impact on the forums than some stray posts.
I see it as arrogance and frustration. There are many of us that are unseasoned in the knowledge of phones. When we have knowledge in a particular field and become wise, we sometimes become impatient with others for what is simple to us. Very few people knew years ago what they know now. Life is about development, meant to cultivate and refine, and it happens in stages or seasons. To the well-seasoned people, (pros) please try to understand our ignorance or unfamiliarity. When a noobie asks something, try to understand you didnt always know what you know. Show some humility, you can better help us by understanding we are students to the knowledge you have. When you teach, we can learn, and go away more intelligent in that field, then we can help others on a lower level. . Example: The Pros have level 10, some noobies may have level 5. But that level 5 noobie can help a level 3 noobie, easing the burden on the level 10 pro.
On the other hand, many noobies may start asking questions and expect the pro to do allllllll their work, NO GOOD. There is a friend of us all, his name is Google, he has helped me many times. I dont expect for the pros to do all of the work for me, as none of us should. We as noobies do need to spend more time reading and researching, if we fail to understand, then ask the question. Sometimes we all overlook things and it may take a noobie to make a pro recall that thing that was overlooked. As the commercial says, "you can learn alot from a dummy' (noobie). I even see some pros ride the coat tails of other pros and more or less follow their leads. If the first pro is hard on a noobie the second pro adds his two cents. Thats not necessary.
Let us both, pro and noobie, do our part to develop and keep good karma here at XDA. I do like XDA very much and recognize and respect the abundance of talent which is here. It is fascinating for us to learn and share what we know with others and to see we have helped someone. Im interested in learning and if possible over time to share what I learn with others in a humble manner. So if the community will have me, I plan on being here.
One other productive point of dialogue. I have noticed that recently when you create a new thread XDA automatically searches your subject line and shows you threads with similar subject lines. I think that is helpful.
But it all goes to show that maybe the search functions could be reviewed a bit more with newer members input.
I really like XDA btw, but just thinking about ways to make it better. It may be that those kinds of auto search functions should appear when you are posting in a thread, and not just creating a new one.
There may also be ways to make the search functions more intuitive. Sometimes, for example when you search threads (and not just posts) the default screeen sends back a bunch of threads and it becomes hard to judge which thread may actually contain the most relevant info you are looking for (since the subject line may not be helpful). There may be other info the search could show you (ie how many times the word comes up in that particular thread, etc).
I am sure XDA is always looking at ways to make things better. But it would be interesting to hear what new folks have to say and the challanges they face when searching for information.
AKToronto said:
I have noticed that recently when you create a new thread XDA automatically searches your subject line and shows you threads with similar subject lines. I think that is helpful.
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I agree with you AK, It is very helpful and a nice feature. It reduces the amount of clutter. I went looking to start a new thread on the subject titled "Arrogance vs Humility", and boom, the search suggestions showed me a few threads on the subject. It does become time consuming when cleaning up the forums. Most times when we want to know something we want it on the spot and dont take the time to look first. More so than not, the question has already been answered.
Another issue is the xda app does not have an option to filter the search results. It's pretty well useless. Main reason I switched to tapatalk.
One S | Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2 | Viper 1.2.1 | Bricked Beastmode
There's also not a lot of stickies in the Q & A section... I think we might want to start a project with moderators to propose some stickies and have folks volunteer to create and update the original posts in such stickies.
For example an RUU FAQ, and a Wifi faq, perhaps another on different hboot versions what that even means, one on custom recoveries, kernels, etc. I posted what I thought was a more comprehensive review of sd card issues people have had and fixes and asked it be moved to q & a (since the one stickied there is pretty basic and hasn't been updated). My explanation is still getting buried in the general section for now http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=36372149#post36372149... It's not a big deal though.
But I do find that really good OPs (ie original posts) can do a world of good for someone who is new. Stickies and other OPs should be updated frequently especially as people start explaining their issues.
Another good example of a post that should be stickied in Q&A but is lingering in General is http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2076086
Sent from my HTC One S using xda premium
Dmwitz said:
I think the best thing you can do is to report arrogance and hope the user gets some sort of warning. I have also witnessed some comments that were unnecessary and that could really put new users off asking questions here. That is a real shame imo.
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AGREE completely, some people just believe that just because they've been here for what seems forever and (believe) they have put in their time that they can actually treat people like they're complete idiots and that is just WRONG! I have been around for awhile and never that I can remember have ever treated members like this plus each individual may have better understandings of many other devices or aspects of several other types of electronics compared to many, than again some just are not too familiar with this or that type of device possibly because there are as we can agree slight differences in each. Why can we not just treat everyone as people of a large and (sometimes) great community also, just explain things like the way you wanted them explained to you when you first arrived or switched devices and I just received the BEST experience in my thread for the past week from 'Darknites' and another member whom I'm having issues with writing his username lol but he knows who he is. I try to learn from what has been taught to me through trial and error and lots of it but members like above stick in and help even though I know they were getting irritated lol, when I can I help those with similar issues or with issues I possibly know the answer to. PLEASE just help, no need for rude degrading comments to anyone no matter how much they may not be catching on also you can type many things in 'Google' or even in this forum's search but may not get exactly what your looking for especially like me when this is your daily driver device and can't afford or are not into testing many different devices.
Thanks.
TheCrow1372 said:
AGREE completely, some people just believe that just because they've been here for what seems forever and (believe) they have put in their time that they can actually treat people like they're complete idiots and that is just WRONG! I have been around for awhile and never that I can remember have ever treated members like this plus each individual may have better understandings of many other devices or aspects of several other types of electronics compared to many, than again some just are not too familiar with this or that type of device possibly because there are as we can agree slight differences in each. Why can we not just treat everyone as people of a large and (sometimes) great community also, just explain things like the way you wanted them explained to you when you first arrived or switched devices and I just received the BEST experience in my thread for the past week from 'Darknites' and another member whom I'm having issues with writing his username lol but he knows who he is. I try to learn from what has been taught to me through trial and error and lots of it but members like above stick in and help even though I know they were getting irritated lol, when I can I help those with similar issues or with issues I possibly know the answer to. PLEASE just help, no need for rude degrading comments to anyone no matter how much they may not be catching on also you can type many things in 'Google' or even in this forum's search but may not get exactly what your looking for especially like me when this is your daily driver device and can't afford or are not into testing many different devices.
Thanks.
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:laugh: