There's already kernel source available for the DNA? Does this just fully confirm that all the delays in the HOX's OS updates, source release, unlocking, etc., are all the complete fault of AT&T? I know the SGS3 had source basically immediately, too, but still. Not trying to be snarky, but actually asking for opinions. Unfortunately I can't mod my phone much due to corporate restrictions from my company, so I'm forced to maintain a little interest in the actual OTAs and carrier involvement.
sorry, dont kill me, this isn't really a "question" in the General forum, just meant to start more of a discussion.
No, the One x+ released with jellybean before we ever got jelly bean, so they were up in line before us.
They typically have a month to release source once they release the software to the public.
Source is all up to HTC and they always took their time, its just a simple fact you have to get used too.
Don't be offended that this will get closed soon, its not really a good topic for discussion because it almost always turns into bashing and flaming because people start pointing fingers at the carriers or manufacturer's.
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
right, but we didnt get source for months. the DNA is HTC and just came out and already has source. and there's still no source for the HOX+ on ATT, but there is for O2 and in Asia.
I miss read your post and I'll elaborate further when I get a chance
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
superchilpil said:
Keep in mind that we haven't had a official release of jellybean for att.
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I guess that's really what I'm getting at. It just seems like ATT is the bottle neck for all of the wait. I haven't been very active on the forums for a couple of months, but previously there was a lot of angst towards HTC for how long it took them to provide source, which was for an older version of the software when it did actually hit. However, when HTC and other carriers are able to produce source almost instantly after a phone's release, I just start to wonder at which point we can really look to AT&T for all the frustrations caused with essentially having a flagship be abandoned within a few months. Should I just expect this treatment is going to be the norm from now on?
superchilpil said:
I miss read your post and I'll elaborate further when I get a chance
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool, no worries.
The reason why the droid DNA has source already is because its counterpart the HTC j butterfly was released well before the DNA and even before the HOX+
So that's why source is out already because it was released before
The international version will always get updates/source before anything else.
I believe there are less restrictions
And american branded phones will always get them last because of the many restrictions we have here either due to patents or restrictions via carriers
Its just how it is, and HTC likes to take their time.
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
The HTC one xl aka AT&T one x is not an American branded phone or exclusive to America or anything special or different to any other phone.
AT&T are just one of the many carriers that sell the phones. The jb update has landed on other carriers prior to AT&T and kernel for that has not come yet either.
At&t have zero to do with any release or source things with this phone. They are just a another carrier.
Othen than iPhone, mobile phones always only had a few months at the top before a new flagship landed. Htc, samsung, Nokia, etc have long been prolific with releases to try to one up or at least equal each other to encourage upgrades and stay fresh. HTC one xl is still on sale and considered a high end phone on lte carriers. Just it is nearing 12 months old and that isn't fresh in the technology world.
I am at a loss for why so many users here are so desperate for AT&T to seem remotely important regarding any particulars with this phone.
No one cares you spent all of your money on a phone to be cool and now feel ripped off because others own the next best thing. Now you understand the life cycle of technology, consider it a life lesson for things like tv's, cars, fridges, coffee machines, and everything else adults own.
twistedddx said:
The HTC one xl aka AT&T one x is not an American branded phone or exclusive to America or anything special or different to any other phone.
AT&T are just one of the many carriers that sell the phones. The jb update has landed on other carriers prior to AT&T and kernel for that has not come yet either.
At&t have zero to do with any release or source things with this phone. They are just a another carrier.
Othen than iPhone, mobile phones always only had a few months at the top before a new flagship landed. Htc, samsung, Nokia, etc have long been prolific with releases to try to one up or at least equal each other to encourage upgrades and stay fresh. HTC one xl is still on sale and considered a high end phone on lte carriers. Just it is nearing 12 months old and that isn't fresh in the technology world.
I am at a loss for why so many users here are so desperate for AT&T to seem remotely important regarding any particulars with this phone.
No one cares you spent all of your money on a phone to be cool and now feel ripped off because others own the next best thing. Now you understand the life cycle of technology, consider it a life lesson for things like tv's, cars, fridges, coffee machines, and everything else adults own.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only lesson to learn is to never buy an HTC product on AT&T.
n19htmare said:
The only lesson to learn is to never buy an HTC product on AT&T.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's quite an immature reply... What are you so butthurt about? Go switch to Verizon and tell me how you like their customer service..
And Verizon takes longer for updates usually...hopefully you're not an adult to put out a response like that...
omario8484 said:
That's quite an immature reply... What are you so butthurt about? Go switch to Verizon and tell me how you like their customer service..
And Verizon takes longer for updates usually...hopefully you're not an adult to put out a response like that...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He's right, Verizon is horrible with updates
Glad I switched!
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
Verizon lacks Google wallet does it not and also has issues with locked bootloaders and late updates.
twistedddx said:
Verizon lacks Google wallet does it not and also has issues with locked bootloaders and late updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AT&T also lacks Google wallet.
Sent from my HTC One XL
well i wasn't trying to start a flamefest, but apparently this is turning into an engadget-esque thread pretty quickly. the basis of my original post was that i was under the impression that the int'l One XLs had source before we did, but I really couldn't recall. I just thought it was interesting that our ATT HOX had to wait so long for source and the DNA basically dropped with it.
twistedddx said:
I am at a loss for why so many users here are so desperate for AT&T to seem remotely important regarding any particulars with this phone.
No one cares you spent all of your money on a phone to be cool and now feel ripped off because others own the next best thing. Now you understand the life cycle of technology, consider it a life lesson for things like tv's, cars, fridges, coffee machines, and everything else adults own.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for taking this one way beyond unreasonable. I'm not complaining about JB or lack thereof, and I can fully assure you that I comprehend the life cycles of technology. Based on your response, I'm guessing you're either an immature HS senior or a disgruntled 35yr old former best buy employee. Regardless, if you want to criticize me for simply looking for clarification or an opinion, then that's your problem. However, the best way to talk about "everything else adults own" is to actually give the slightest impression that you are an adult. Thanks for absolutely zero contribution to this thread, and probably the forums in general.
superchilpil said:
The reason why the droid DNA has source already is because its counterpart the HTC j butterfly was released well before the DNA and even before the HOX+
So that's why source is out already because it was released before
The international version will always get updates/source before anything else.
I believe there are less restrictions
And american branded phones will always get them last because of the many restrictions we have here either due to patents or restrictions via carriers
Its just how it is, and HTC likes to take their time.
Sent from my One X using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I didn't realize the DNA and Butterfly were so closely tied in terms of final hardware/software. Yes, the American carriers take forever to get anything through to their devices. And yes, HTC never seems to be rushing to get anything done, and with the host of delays throughout the life cylce of this HOX, I'm not sure why I'm holding my breath. Maybe it's because I really do love this phone and wish it could have been treated the way it was billed at release. I just wish I didn't have corporate restrictions and had the freedom to mod this thing like I did my old Atrix.
fitchpuckman said:
under the impression that the int'l One XLs had source before we did, but I really couldn't recall.
I'm guessing you're either an immature HS senior or a disgruntled 35yr old former best buy employee.
However, the best way to talk about "everything else adults own" is to actually give the slightest impression that you are an adult
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The international One XL did not get kernel source in a more timely manner, they are getting it at the same time.
As for flaming, I made no personal attacks towards you but you did towards me?
I am not a HS senior or a disgruntled best buys employee, I am an adult however.
You asked for opinion and I gave you mine, which is that there is a common vibe from the AT&T One X users(including you) that AT&T is the reason for late kernel drops and lateness in software releases. I am pointing out that in my opinion neither are related to AT&T.
Many users also are complaining/disgruntled that the AT&T One X was dropped as the flagship.
Eg you:
"look to AT&T for all the frustrations caused with essentially having a flagship be abandoned within a few months"
Once again in my opinion it was dropped in a similar time frame to any phone getting dropped by any carrier or brand.
I gave 3 opinions about 3 direct things you asked for opinions on.
-kernel source
-release rate
-flagship status
You asked for opinions, I gave mine.
In reply you attempted to personally flamed me. You do not seem to forum well.
twistedddx said:
The international One XL did not get kernel source in a more timely manner, they are getting it at the same time.
As for flaming, I made no personal attacks towards you but you did towards me?
I am not a HS senior or a disgruntled best buys employee, I am an adult however.
You asked for opinion and I gave you mine, which is that there is a common vibe from the AT&T One X users(including you) that AT&T is the reason for late kernel drops and lateness in software releases. I am pointing out that in my opinion neither are related to AT&T.
Many users also are complaining/disgruntled that the AT&T One X was dropped as the flagship.
Eg you:
"look to AT&T for all the frustrations caused with essentially having a flagship be abandoned within a few months"
Once again in my opinion it was dropped in a similar time frame to any phone getting dropped by any carrier or brand.
I gave 3 opinions about 3 direct things you asked for opinions on.
-kernel source
-release rate
-flagship status
You asked for opinions, I gave mine.
In reply you attempted to personally flamed me. You do not seem to forum well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The One X (Int'l) got source (~1mo from release, only a few weks for some countries)) two times faster than the ATT One X/XL (just under 2 months after release). I know it's picky, but I'm simply saying.
Now, please go back and read my original comments and stop taking portions of my words out of context.
And I didnt say you were flaming me, I just said this was turning into a flamefest. Yes, I participated at that point, which makes me no better than I called out, I suppose.
Regardless, I started this thread just looking for thoughts regarding the DNA and the timeliness of it's source code release on Verizon, and how that relates to ATT dragging its feet with most devices that aren't it's one carrier 'flagship' phone (at this point, i think the SGS3). If you think this has nothign to do with ATT, then that's fine; that's was I was asking not telling. I wasn't here complaining, I was here discussing. Am I thrilled with ATT right now? Of course not, but this didn't start as a whiny rant, and I'd prefer it didn't end that way. I appreciate the opinions you've shared, but I think some were a little misguided in nature.
fitchpuckman said:
The One X (Int'l) got source (~1mo from release, only a few weks for some countries)) two times faster than the ATT One X/XL (just under 2 months after release)..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You had mentioned the International One XL in particular not the International One X. The One XL in all regions had source dropped at about the same time.
The International One X is an entirely unrelated phone.
h8rift said his personal feeling was HTC release source based on sales.
This translates to:
It appears there is a constant backlog of devices waiting for source to be released in general and the backlog is cleared on a priority basis.
The higher the sales of a phone the higher the priority, with a "once it hits 90 days the device always gets high priority" catchall.
Devices such as the International One X and One S have massive sales and see the source released first. They are available in nearly all markets and are slightly cheaper so sell well.
Phones with less sales such as One XL take longer, typically the full 90 days.
DroidDNA was a side effect of the phone was already available for a long time in another region. It has already waited in line.
Perhaps people can be upset if AT&T keep taking the more uncommon models such as the new AT&T One X+ versus the normal International One X+. If the phone inst generally available everywhere the sales will be less and that means lower priority for updates and source.
But I think AT&T are just an early adopter in the world with LTE so for the next year or so they with Rogers, Telus, Singtel, Telstra, Vodafone, O2 will keep ending up with flagship models that are less common than they could otherwise be and it is not really their fault for being bleeding edge?
twistedddx said:
You had mentioned the International One XL in particular not the International One X. The One XL in all regions had source dropped at about the same time.
The International One X is an entirely unrelated phone.
But I think AT&T are just an early adopter in the world with LTE so for the next year or so they with Rogers, Telus, Singtel, Telstra, Vodafone, O2 will keep ending up with flagship models that are less common than they could otherwise be and it is not really their fault for being bleeding edge?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my mistake, I was misremembering the releases and mixing up the LTE vs hspa versions.
Out make an interesting point about ATT (and other similar carriers) being a sort of early adopter, at least in terms of network technology. I had always stuck with them due to the GSM networks while others continued to build around the CDMA. Network speeds made this an easy decision, as did the crap battery life that folks at Verizon and Sprint had to deal with due to early LTE phones being stuck with two radios. But you are right that ATT deserves some slack for having been a little ahead of the curve in terms of this, and that does put them at a disadvantage in terms of having access to a more common/standard build of software for its phones.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
Related
http://androidspin.com/2011/01/12/b...amsung-is-holding-the-android-world-hostage/#
I see this is being discussed over in the Facinate forum as well.
Quote from the article says it all: "So what is Samsung doing? I’m not really sure at this point. Everything points to the company being more dead set on sales numbers instead of keeping the people that have made them millions happy."
Oh btw, doesn't really surprise me though and majority of the members here.
Duh! Would you, as a business, rather sell a new $500 handset or push an update which nets you $0.
Unfortunately, I know I'll be in line...
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
cappysw10 said:
Duh! Would you, as a business, rather sell a new $500 handset or push an update which nets you $0.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd rather keep my current customers happy so they will keep coming back and keep buying my new products. Customer satisfaction is the name of the game. Besides, it's not like pushing 2.2 is going to mean that no one buys the newer handset. They are targeting a very niche market, a market that thrives on having the newest thing the first day it comes out. This same market will drop you like a rock if you don't keep them satisfied with their purchases.
Why do Apple fan boys keep buying Apple products? Because they are happy and satisfied. I doubt you'd find a comparative percentage of Samsung Galaxy S line owners feeling the same way.
The simple fact that the developers and community here at XDA, as well as other forums provide more support than Samsung does speaks volumes.
There's a number of reasons I don't like Apple and their products. But I was an Iphone 3G owner for a period of time. I had a problem, which was made into a bigger problem by a "Genius". I called Apple and the problem was solved within 24 hrs. That is customer service. That is customer satisfaction. That is why people keep buying Apple products and choking on Apple cawk.
I hardly feel any love from Samsung, I believe that many here share my view.
jwood55812 said:
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I concur with this.
jwood55812 said:
I disagree, Samsung has made available updates to Froyo for UK customers, Canadian customers, and now US cellular customers, I'm still placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of ATT and other US Carriers.
http://phandroid.com/2011/01/13/samsung-releases-froyo-for-us-cellulars-acclaim/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it is indeed AT&T that is stifling the update, then Samsung should say so. Sony did this with the Xperia X10. They put out a press release telling their angry customers that AT&T was to blame for the lack of updates.
It's worse for Samsung as a company to just keep promising updates that never come, then it is for them to direct us to be angry at the responsible entity.
Just dl a rom already xD
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
oni1jz said:
Just dl a rom already xD
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did. I'm currently running Phoenix 3.0 and loving it. This is just a discussion about Samsung/AT&T/updates. That being said, when the next generation of phones comes out, I'm jumping ship.
At&t stopped the 6.5 win mo update for the fuze so people would buy the tilt 2. Why should this be any different?
From a phone
nooomoto said:
I did. I'm currently running Phoenix 3.0 and loving it. This is just a discussion about Samsung/AT&T/updates. That being said, when the next generation of phones comes out, I'm jumping ship.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think you'll be alone in that regard.
MAN OVERBOARD!!!
They already have you for 2yr contract, and most won't pay for the cancellation fee. So their rush on updates, eh, their (Samsung and AT$T) not.
Opinion: Their main concern right now is not the update, but Verizon getting the Iphone. So I am assuming updates are least of their problems, especially if they already got you for 2yrs. Only good thing coming out of this, we see the next generations of android phones coming out.
That is why competition is good, but for customer support....I think we all get the shaft.
I am betting on CM6.11 or CM7 working.
as far as I am concerned we will never see another update from att.
Those bastards will probable not release it with the new phones coming out.
I just want something "Official" so that the audio out on my dock will work...
OVCArchion said:
I just want something "Official" so that the audio out on my dock will work...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just want something official so someone can build a new ROM off of it and the GPS, Bluetooth, Audio out, lights, etc all work and I'm not fighting with an i9000 ROM.
boborone said:
At&t stopped the 6.5 win mo update for the fuze so people would buy the tilt 2. Why should this be any different?
From a phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure where you saw that. It was not a AT&T or HTC decision. Microsoft only allowed official WM 6.5 updates for phones with the "Windows" button on them. Since the Fuze had a "home" button, it did not qualify for WM 6.5. If AT&T had held it back, then other Raphael, Diamond, and/or Blackstone handsets (Verizon TP, etc) would have gotten WM 6.5. In fact none of the Raphael, Diamond, or Blackstone phones got WM 6.5.
I am certainly happy enough with all the ROMS on here that I don't care as much for an official release. My phone does everything I want it to do, so im happy. But I DO think its pretty crappy to not update the phones, especially for the users that don't visit this forum. Its typical business and unfortunately the customer is always the one to get shafted.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
idk, but even if it were not Samsungs fault....
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/13/verizon-wireless-and-htc-most-eager-to-provide-android-2-2-updat/
Take it with a grain of salt. But it sounds mildly legit.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045
edit: actually i call b.s.
whiteguypl said:
edit: actually i call b.s.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why? I have no firm opinion one way or the other, but just saying "bull****" really doesn't mean much unless you're playing the card game.
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Open source doesn't mean free.
I'm inclined to believe it. It makes more sense than trying to say they have been testing it for months. I've had my captivate for 6 months, almost 5 of them running FroYo thanks to the awesome devs here. Has the froyo always been stable and fast? No. But the devs don't work for Samsung with all the resouces, they are doing it in their spare time. I would bet Samsung had a fairly stable, almost complete version of FroYo ready before the phone released.
I am really getting tempted by the Atrix, apart from the awesome hardware and webtop app, Motorola devices get updates. But, they sound harder to flash custom ROMs, so its a give and take. Based on what I saw on the CES coverage, going with only official software may not be so bad.
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Even if thus is true, both AT&T and Samsung have all ready made too many mistakes. Both will lose some business. Yes it won't be enough to hurt either but maybe all the pestering will make them rethink their business models. Probably not. My last Samschmuck phone on AT&T for sure.
Sent from a phone somewhere in the universe
ianwood said:
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the same point I tried to make on the thread. While Samsung may have been the ones to state that Froyo would come to Galaxy S, it may be that the carrier(s) decided to balk on the 2.2 update due to extra cost as probably stipulated by whatever contract they negotiated with Samsung.
If Froyo is already on Canadian carriers' devices (officially) why not U.S. carriers. Something reeks here.
While Samsung should have kept their mouths shut about the update, I'm sure a part is being played by the American carriers here.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are mixing up open source with free software. Ask Richard Stallman the difference
Also, I would imagine that they would not be paying Samsung for the software itself but more so the software development to tailor it to the carriers needs.
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
A.VOID said:
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AT&T has nothing to do with iPhone updates. Matter of fact, AT&T has nothing to do with iPhones at all, except sell them. All iPhone updates are done through iTunes and all iPhone support is handled by Apple. This is not a good comparison.
Even comparing WinMo doesn't really work. I had a Wizard on AT&T, and there was exactly one firmware update, even though there were other versions that were available later. Plus, Windows is not free and not based on open source code. So, carriers would expect to pay for updates with closed source operating systems.
Xaviorin said:
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If that were true, then Apple and AT&T would be facing some serious litigation. This is similar to the deals that Intel made with computer manufacturers, forcing them to slow leak AMD sales in order to sell more Intel chips. Intel paid quite a hefty fine and suffered a serious PR black eye. That type of practice stifles competition and is very, very illegal. So, I doubt that Apple and AT&T would even consider doing that.
Xaviorin said:
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
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Conspiracy theory much? Like someone said, your theories border on anti-competitive in practice. AT&T is also not so obsessed with the iPhone given how much they've diversified their smartphone portfolio in the past 9 months (+2 WebOS devices, +2 BlackBerrys, +3 Windows Phones, +5 Android devices).
I'm usually skeptical about these things, but this is about the only rumor that makes sense.
For those comparing it to the iphone, its like comparing oranges to apples. Apple pretty much takes care of everything on their side.At&t just peddles their product. Apple has a 400 person call center just for the iphone, next door to where I work.
Apple makes the hardware and creates the OS.
Samsung just makes hardware which is a good thing considering how bad their software engineers are at coding.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I'm more in the conspiracy theory side
Don't trust everything you read.
Thing about it deeply, what is more likely:
A Sammy employee risked his job, created an account just to create this post, and tell us the truth about the updates and how bad his employer is? seriously? What did he gain by doing this post? peace of mind? can he go to sleep now that he has revealed the truth of the US-only updates? Does really the Samsung employees care this much for only the US based users? This smells, and bad.
Now lets look at the conspiracy side. An AT&T employee notices our frustration against them. They see that seem to be more frustrated people are the non tech-savvy ones; that we got to admit they are more than us and represent a big number for them. On the other hand I bet they receive a gazillion calls from you guys on these subject.
Wouldn't be more likely than AT&T representative created that post to wash their hands and pass the blame to sammy? Isn't them who released a restricted phone and made a deal with Samsung saying that they will be in charge of this phone's updates? Samsungs cost in releasing an update of a phone that is almost equal to 6 other phones they released is null; whereas AT&T cost in updating their crap is high. Don't be blind. Carriers are the new tyrants. They will do anything in their power to get more money. If you could see what they are able to do in countries like mine you wont even doubt this. In my country of such a deal is made you can forget that you will ever get updates. There even is a carrier that, after 4 months passed that you have purchased a motorola's android based phone, charges you 10 uss monthly for MOTO BLUR, and this was written in the small print of the contract... seriously... I've seen carriers cancel their users contracts, saying they requested that, to bill them their contract-cancelation fee...
I could go on with this for pages... I've witnessed carriers lying, deceiving, and even more right in the people's face. If you want to check this, and know some spanish or use translators, just google "Claro hijos de puta" (sons of a...) or "claro estafa" (scam); both searches give more than 3 million results, and you wont imagine what you might find inside those pages...
This whole thing smells badly. And if I had to bet, I would say that post was made by a carrier to buy them time, or even to start making up an excuse so they wont ever release an update... after all, they would be the only ones that would benefit from such events...
I'm through waiting
This story was the final straw for me, whether it's true or not. I am tired of the drama and am no longer waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to deliver what AT&T told me would happen when I bought the phone. If AT&T store staff said something incorrect it was corporate's fault for not guiding their staff correctly. I was told shortly Froyo was coming, but it never came. Samsung said on Twitter/Facebook we all would have Froyo last year. There is no excuse for what they have done, none. I've waded through the myriad of 3rd party ROMs and was leery of the leaked Froyo ones due to everyone seemed to have an issue here or there. The 9000 ROMs sounded exciting but came with issues I didn't want. I just want a working GPS and a stable phone, running Froyo, what I thought I was getting last summer.
Now that Rogers released a North American ROM and the talented coders have seized upon it, we seem to be approaching a new level of stability with Froyo. After reading up on the various Rogers ROM based images I installed Cognition (donation coming later tonight) and after 30 minutes of playing around, I am home with Froyo now. I am beyond tired of waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to do the honorable thing for they are not honorable companies. I doubt another Samsung will grace my pocket and yet maybe it will be the 3rd party coders that will ultimately deliver what I have waited patiently for, for months. Wouldn't it be a wonderful environment if Samsung would just release the source to everything and let those out here, those infinitely more talented than Samsung staff, have access to the code they need to work pure magic.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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polarbee said:
Open source doesn't mean free.
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Open source comes under GPL license. This isn't the one that is of cost, but the efforts involved in packing for a device, its extensive testing is what is costly.
In the most simplest of terms, the following people would be involved:
Business Team x 3 people
Development Team x 6 people
Testing/QA Team x 10 people
To take care of these people:
Project Manager x 1 person
Team Leads x 3 people (1 for each team)
Taking this to 23 people, to say the least.
On an average, if we pay each person say $ 50k for 6 months effort, it would be $ 50,000 x 23 = $ 1,150,000 i.e., $ 1.15 millions for 6 months.
Now see, this is only the minimal scale. For a phone so wide spread, I would assume a team of atleast 50 where managers charge more than 100-200k a year.
Now u see why Samsung doesn't wish to put this kind of money into a phone already sold, and is looking into marketing newer phones.
I think its all hoopla.
This "leak" of sensitive information on one of many android forums is only going to reach the eyes of a hand full of readers.
We (the brave souls wanting new updates for our gadgets and willing to hack them to get it) are very few in numbers compared to the vast amounts of consumers who own this phone, and usually don't give a hoot about a new update/upgrade for their phones ROM, IF they even know what the heck it is. They only care that their calls and texts go through, and they can browse the web on their lunch break.
The ONLY issue that most would care about is the GPS issues we have had. And I bet that AT&T, and Samsung have both received tens of thousands of customer complaints regarding Mr. Joe Average not being able to find his way on his family vacation. Again, we are but a small number compared to that. I would think that alone would motivate something to happen, at least an OTA update to fix the GPS issues. Nope.
So other than an intellectual debate on "why haves", and "why have nots" on a forum like this, there is nothing else this message could possibly accomplish.
The above thread, and this one will slowly slide down the thread list and be forgotten and nothing else will change.
The Bottom Line
Rumors aside, if it doesn't sell more phones, minutes or data plans and it can be avoided without seriously upsetting customers, they won't bother. Outside of our merry band of flash-a-holics, what percent of Captivate owners even know what Froyo is or care?
Also, judging by the JH7 OTA debacle, Samsung's OTA upgrade capability is decidedly unreliable. I'd bet that caused a mountain of returns. AT&T HATES returns!!! Costs them a fortune. The cost of paying Samsung for a Froyo upgrade is a drop in the bucket by comparison. So a bad OTA system is worse than none at all. If AT&T can get away with avoiding it, they will.
I think our best hope is to make A LOT of noise! Complain to Samsung, AT&T and Google. Do it publicly on FB, Twitter, etc. Do it often. A small vocal group of XDA readers can probably stir up a decent amount of attention at AT&T if they coordinated their efforts.
Hi all,
I study this stuff and just came across this article which might be of interest. It's not that you haven't heard of this idea, rather that this article is current and offers contribution to knowledge.
http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support
I came here to a great extent out of discovering the poor software support from my phone's manufactuer, in my case Sony Ericsson.
The single most critical aspect of this article in my two eyes (other people may find something else depending on your education, work and interest) is that this article argues that Cyanogen getting the latest OS working on even old devices shows the manufacturers are just being cheap but that is awful judgement on their part - because we move on to a different manufacturer.
What do you think?
The nexus series is okay, but the rest... For me it was sure that I'll go with custom roms from the very beginning because of this s**t.
Wasn't there some kind of contract that the manufactures provide support for a certain amount of time? I read about it somewhere.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
All i have to say it
WOW! thats crazy.
Personally I don't get why so many people are excited about the Samsung Galaxy S II. I have the Galaxy S. It came out at 2.1 when 2.2 had been out for months and finally got 2.2 about 6 months after it went on sale. NOTHING since.
For me, Samsung is a #neveragain product. ZERO support.
Yes, the manufacturers sometimes give clear support for some phones. My phone was launched around June 2010 on 1.6 (don't laugh lol) and I bought it that August. It was upgraded to 2.1. Around May/June 2011 an upgraded version was released instead of upgrading the 2010 line. Sony Ericsson said they 'give up to 2 years support and updates' for the phone. Most of the updates had negligible effect.
Any of you guys know your phone's support level?
Droidicus said:
Personally I don't get why so many people are excited about the Samsung Galaxy S II. I have the Galaxy S. It came out at 2.1 when 2.2 had been out for months and finally got 2.2 about 6 months after it went on sale. NOTHING since.
For me, Samsung is a #neveragain product. ZERO support.
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SGS update for GB has been out for several months everywhere except the USA for some models. That clearly makes this a USA carrier problem as Samsung has delievered timely updates outside of the USA.
The model for Android means the updates flow slowly through the system once they are announced and code is released. In BB and iOS, you get it all at once because its a closed system and RIM and Apple dont share anything with other companies.
Cooperation results in more variety and features but comes at the expense of slower implementation. This is seen in any situation, not just with mobile OS.
But it is the open source nature of Android which allows communities like Cyanogen and XDA to exist. We succeed where others fail.
Plus, while I like some Apple products like iPod, some of the rest of it is tremendously over-expensive clever marketing, where people show off their expensive goods to friends and pay for Apple's champagne parties in the process.
phoneyericsson said:
But it is the open source nature of Android which allows communities like...XDA to exist
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XDA existed years before Android was released.
Perhaps but that doesn't mean that we don't benefit from systems like Android. With BB and iOS you begin with a closed system locked down.
The phrase is not mutually exclusive - that one point is true and the other false.
most app developers will end up targeting an ancient version of the OS in order to maximize market reach.
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This doesn't bother me so much. I'm currently developing on a Rogers HTC Magic running 2.1 and I'm fine with that (ok not really, I'm getting the Galaxy Nexus in January). Anyway, the way I see it is targeting lower APIs just means there are fewer functions available for us to use, meaning we have to implement a few extra things ourselves. No big deal.
What is a big deal is the inconsistency of implementation of features by different manufacturers (eg Camera intent) That makes me rage.
---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------
phoneyericsson said:
Any of you guys know your phone's support level?
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Well keep in mind that your 2 year old phone may not be able to pull the greatest and latest version of Android. That could be one reason for a short support cycle.
As much as I would like rogers to update my phone to 2.2, it's not going to happen, because the hardware is not so good (by today's standards)
The author neglected the fact that there are hundreds of Android phones available and only 5 different iPhones (not counting the varying colors/storage spaces). It's far easier to provide and maintain updates for 5 devices than the 20+ Android devices each manufacturer has released within the previous two year period (minimum contract for subsidized pricing).
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using XDA App
Droidicus said:
Personally I don't get why so many people are excited about the Samsung Galaxy S II. I have the Galaxy S. It came out at 2.1 when 2.2 had been out for months and finally got 2.2 about 6 months after it went on sale. NOTHING since.
For me, Samsung is a #neveragain product. ZERO support.
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Even the European Orange carrier branded Galaxy S is at 2.3.5. This non-support thingy is a US only problem (and probably some Asian countries).
American carriers are some blood sucking companies, of course they don't want to update their phones, because they must sell the next big thing.
And God, they fuc**d every good phone released there. That GNexus version from Verizon isn't even a google phone anymore.
US people should buy the international version if their network is compatible (like AT&T) and stop complaining. I only buy unlocked versions of the phones, and if I bought a low-end Android phone, I wouldn't complain about not getting updates. Seriously, you expect for your OEM to upgrade your 200$ (unlocked phone, I don't care how much is on contract) phone from 1.6 to 4.0 ?
I don't see my mom complaining about Android 2.3.3 version on her Galaxy Gio because he doesn't even know what an OS is. And even if the phone won't get updated anymore, the phone is perfectly working.
Now, if I do read tech blogs, I know what an OS is, and the most significant thing, I'm on XDA, is so hard to flash a custom rom on my almost out of warranty 18 months old phone ?
And what good is to update your phone if afterwards it will work like sh!t? 3GS is an example.
Some interesing points there...
- I agree that it wasn't really elaborated that the iPhone has a couple of variations whereas the Android situation involves many manufactuers so it is obviously going to work differently, watch Apple try fill those shoes. I don't really pay too much attention to Apple on that count though. While I think they do generally a good job looking after their own customers, take a look at their product portfolio - they have no interest in mass market generally, for quite a few years now they've moved away from iPods (companies which move away from their original core products have a struggle to survive) and into iPhones/iPads and now iTV incoming, which are, as we know, 'products of exlcusive consumption' which yield very high profit margins. That has nothing in common with the multi-manufactuer Android-approach, so I don't think very much about what Apple would do, simply, they wouldn't.
- Interesting note from the developer side there from that other person ^^^. And I hate throwing fuel in the fire, and I especially hate this term (it's a word pushed by Apple/Microsoft to spook Google's business partners in my opinion) but is fragmentation a problem?
- Also, this isn't an American problem. I'm European and we have the same problem. For you guys, contracts for 2 years -seems- to be normal there, but prepay is very popular here. The networks/carriers subsidise the handsets heavilly and you are not locked down really. There are some normally very expensive handsets in the shop now for €150 and I can use that for a year or whatever I want and switch next year. The network/carrier has paid a lot of subsidy to make it that cheap for me though. Contacts suit businesses perhaps more than consumers in this area. Secondly, minor point, but problems like Carrier IQ seem to be rampant in the US, whereas I've yet to find a company here using it. (there surely is, but they've yet to be named and shamed).
- Product support whether contract or prepay is usually defined. I just read another article point out that 2011 was the year of Froyo, which was released in 2010, it took so long for it to be rolled out. 2012 will be the year of Gingerbread, because it too is taking so long to roll out, yet we've just seen ICS come out...that Google strategy that some manufactuers signed up to...was it a joke?
Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?
Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.
They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.
thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.
It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".
You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.
Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium
Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!
How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser
MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.
thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
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The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.
MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.
It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."
thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.
Today the Moto upgrade page changed the status of the AT&T Atrix 2 and Atrix 4G to "Further plans coming soon," so they have reneged on their promise of 3rd quarter of this year. Thanks Moto for heaping a stinking load of cow dung on us. Why did they have people sign up for a soak test that never happened? Here is the upgrade page updated on 22-September-2012.
https://forums.motorola.com/pages/00add97d6c
Unless they plan on going straight to Jelly Bean this is very upsetting.
I'm really hoping that this means we are going straight to JB, but knowing Moto, who knows. I guess we are lucky they haven't relegated us to staying on GB like they did with some of the other devices on that list.
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They could've just released the second or first leak as the OTA and unlocked the BL and ppl would've been happy.
Hopefully we get JB... not counting on it though. Good thing i decided to install the leak and SCv7. Thanks to jim and rdavisct and all the devs here.
Motorola sucks! I'm very upset about this.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app
Other regions are getting ICS rolled out...
Its not moto its at&t, and its at&t about the bootloaders too, the Photon Q is a sprint phone, thats why you can unlock the bootloader.
I'm going to blame the carriers on this one. No other reason moto can roll out ICS to Atrix 2 that are in other regions other then the USA.
FYI: ICS is official in the SEA region as of 11 Sept. The website says Q4 2012, but let me assure you, that is not the case.
Motorola SEA
11 September
Good morning! We are pleased to let our Motorola XOOM2 and ATRIX2 users know that they will be receiving an over-the-air update to Android 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich). Users can also do a manual upgrade by going to Settings\About Tablet\Systems Updates. Please note that the upgrade does not allow for a previous version of Android to be re-installed, and we do recommend that users back up their data prior to this upgrade.
For more inquiries please contact our Product Inquiry Hotlines listed in our previous post. Thank you.
Yes, after some reflection the blame should be on AT&T. Atrix 2s all over the world including China, Cambodia, India and more got the ICS update already. So the likely reason is that AT&T blocked the update so people would upgrade to a new phone and extend their contracts. Since I am using an AT&T Atrix 2 (unlocked) in Thailand that is not an option for me. For regular AT&T customers with an Atrix 2, it looks like AT&T scubmagged you.
I am not a litigious person but if AT&T is blocking these updates, there are some grounds for us the consumer for a legal remedy. There are bugs and problems with the current OS and the update is supposed to fix these for us. The fact that AT&T is blocking us from getting them from the manufacturer is a violation and breach of our warranty and grounds for a lawsuit.
I am now a bit more thankful that I moved onto the AHD, however I mourn for all of my Atrix 2 friends here.
The good news is that the A2 community already has two different ICS leaks which have been worked on since early July, so it's not as if the phones can't run ICS at all. Needless to say, AT&T seems to be the culprit for this major hold-up.
Also, @ ajsedlacek, you likely wouldn't be able to sue AT&T for anything. They probably have a clause releasing them from any potential lawsuits once you sign a contract agreement with them.
Agree 100% with this. In the US the carriers hold all the power. None of them are exempt. Heck... look at the BS Verizon pulled with their "Nexus"
All international phones will get updates first for a variety of reasons, with a big reason being the carriers
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
I think most of us saw this coming. When I woke up this morning and saw the news, it definitely wasn't surprising to me.
My opinion on all of this, screw it. We've got awesome Devs here that are absolutely awesome at what they do, and personally, the LEAKS that we have of ICS are just fine for me.
Also, CM10 from Jim (and others) is right around the corner, and that excites me much more than getting official ICS. Granted it would be nice to have the official version, but there are better things in store for our Atrix 2.
Axis_Drummer said:
I think most of us saw this coming. When I woke up this morning and saw the news, it definitely wasn't surprising to me.
My opinion on all of this, screw it. We've got awesome Devs here that are absolutely awesome at what they do, and personally, the LEAKS that we have of ICS are just fine for me.
Also, CM10 from Jim (and others) is right around the corner, and that excites me much more than getting official ICS. Granted it would be nice to have the official version, but there are better things in store for our Atrix 2.
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I agree 100%.
Sent from my MB865 running CM10
What folks here really need to do, is swallow their 'entitlements' and stop acting like they're "owed" something. It's getting ridiculous, and rather embarrassing to read. You all bought an Atrix 2, that doesn't mean you also purchased the moon and the stars and everything else you've ever wished upon. We get what we get, so don't throw a fit. Whatever comes our way, will be made more amazing by our talented development team. Stop crying about timetables, what you anticipated, and what you feel you deserve. It's a phone for Christ's sake, and to be such malcontents about when we "get this or that" is leaving a rather bitter, self-warranted, rotten taste in the mouth of this forum. Does Motorola suck? Yeah, undeniably so. Does AT&T hold back inexplicably? Certainly. But, you bought the tickets, now take the ride. Stop complaining, or buy another phone. If you're staying with the A2, you can take solace in the fact we have an inarguable competence and talent here, otherwise, take your b¡tching elsewhere. It's growing ever so redundant, and removes from the integrity of everything we've done here, if the threads are flooded with crap like this...
Two bits offered, take 'em or leave 'em...
EDIT: Sorry for the rant, but c'mon, enough is enough.
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar
whatever, man
i told my mommy im not getting ics, and she's calling at&t tomorrow :laugh:
souljaboy said:
whatever, man
i told my mommy im not getting ics, and she's calling at&t tomorrow :laugh:
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Case in point. I've seen enough from you already.
Edit: If you're joking around with me, ha-Ha. I hope that's what you're looking for. If not, you have more practice to be done with your reading comprehension.
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar
Yeah.., I'm not understanding why everyone is crazy about "OFFICIAL" ICS. We already have a leak or rather 2 that have barely if any bugs and a couple of GREAT rom's based on ICS. Furthermore we have a fully working build of CM10 based of off Jellybean (not counting the camera... yet). Personally I couldn't care less about when an "official" version is released because it won't change anything, and I advise you all to do the same.
Just my 2 cents. Not in response to anybody but just my opinion.
The whole argument about updates being not "promised" and being "gratis" is bogus. So is the argument about manufacturers hands being tied by Google.
Short of a legally enforceable contract, Google as well as the manufacturers do everything in their power to lead people into believing that their phones will be updated to the next version of the OS. Google had announced the Alliance with the declared aim of providing OS updates for 18 months from device release date. Last time I checked, Moto was a part of the alliance. Moto has had the Atrix 2 on its update page since February 2012, if I'm not wrong. At the very least, this is a Gentleman's agreement on the part of Google/manufacturer that our phone will be updated. Now if any manufacturer wants to say that it had made no legally binding committment to update, where is the honour in that? Why should I trust such a corporation with my hard earned money in the future? As far as I'm concerned, there WAS a pomise, either express or implied, to update my phone and the manufacturer has dishonourably reneged.
This appeared on the Moto forum:
"Thank you for being a Motorola Mobility customer. We know you value having the latest and greatest technology on your device. We are working very closely with Google and our carrier partners to bring you the best possible experience on each of our devices powered by Android. This means ensuring that all upgrades and updates enhance device functionality and provide an overall improved experience.
As previously communicated, DROID RAZR, DROID RAZR MAXX, DROID 4, DROID BIONIC, DROID XYBOARD 8.2 and 10.1, and MOTOROLA XOOM WiFI + 3G/4G will be upgraded to ICS. Additional details on timing for these products will be shared at a later date.
To help our customers understand the steps we go through to develop an upgrade, we are describing the high-level process for delivering upgrades below. During this process, we work to ensure that an upgrade is possible, and that it provides a satisfying experience. For each smartphone or tablet currently in the market, you will see updated information on what stage the upgrade plan is in.
* Please note this timing is Motorola Mobility's best estimate and contingent on successful completion of testing.
==> https://forums.motorola.com/pages/00add97d6c"
Clearly that sounds like a promise of OS upgrades to come. So untill my next phone states on the box "This unit will not receive any further OS updates from us" I'll expect the updates to come in a somewhat timely manner.
Updates being free is anouther argument I have never understood, even when accompanied by the inappropriate analogy of PC and Windows OS. Unlike in PCs, mobile device owners are completely dependent on the manufacturer to provide OS updates. The cost of developing updates has obviously already been paid in advance by the device owners - would the manufacturers sell even half the number of devices if they told their customers upfront that they would not provide any updates? These are functionality and security updates to an OS that is still in its infancy on products that cost hundreds of dollars one way or the other.
About manufacturers being hamstrung by Google/carriers, Google has already released the OS source code for manufacturers to do as they please. The carrier argument may be true though - I guess if you buy a subsidized phone, you got to be prepared to pamper to the whims of the carrier.
About the phones getting updates through leaks, I would guess even the people who do not visit xda, who don't know nothing about installing leaks ... deserve to have ICS on their phones?
Apex_Strider said:
What folks here really need to do, is swallow their 'entitlements' and stop acting like they're "owed" something.
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Ummm...Yes, I (we) are owed something. Its called updates and bug fixes.
So far one upgrade with no real fixes...
If you're OK with that, so be it. But don't try to sit here and tell people what they should or should not be doing.
Yes the deb's here have done a great job. Saying that, its not their jobs! It is that of Motorola's and at&TS.
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dk-v1 said:
Ummm...Yes, I (we) are owed something. Its called updates and bug fixes.
So far one upgrade with no real fixes...
If you're OK with that, so be it. But don't try to sit here and tell people what they should or should not be doing.
Yes the deb's here have done a great job. Saying that, its not their jobs! It is that of Motorola's and at&TS.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app
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You've so much to learn, young grasshopper...
The "upgrade" wasn't an 'upgrade', it was a leak, I'm sure you recall this, yeah? If it was an official OTA, and needed "bug fixes", likely we would have already gotten them. What we did, was hack the Moto servers, to 'fish' for updates. We found one (two, to be specific) and nothing subsequent to that is owed to us by Moto or AT&T, because what we found wasn't even intended for use by us -the end consumer. We'll get the release when we get it. My point was for everyone to stop this incessant b¡tching and whining. It's borderline manic...
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar
I don't think anyone feels entitled to anything, but it is reasonable to expect some updates and maintenance. Granted we got 2.3.6, but is that really an update when most everyone else at the time was running 2.3.7?
I don't think anyone here questions the contributions made by the devs, nor isn't grateful. I think we're all just frustrated that we're behind the times and know that we have a lot of potential going to waste.
I came from M3 and had a Motorola Cliq XT, so I been through all of this before with Moto and their updates. Fortunately we had Turl (which some of you devs might know), and when I left there about a year ago we had CM7 2.3.7 running great on a phone that had barely a 1/3 of the hardware we have on our A2.
I'm confident we'll move forward, we have some great devs here. We're all entitled to our opinions and expectations, and we all want more because we know we're more than capable of taking advantage of it. I think we just need to organize and focus on what we have going on here at XDA. Personally, I'm excited for CM10 and can't wait to get something more proper running on this piece lol.
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Not sure how I feel about this. Mixed feelings here. Their explanations are not very clear.