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Google says that Ice Cream Sandwich will defragment the Android OS. Obviously it will defragment in terms of bringing together phones, tablets & google TV but an iDevice level of defragmentation? I.E, all devices having the ability to upgrade to the latest version of the OS immediately or even eventually? It seems possible but it doesn't seem probable, but that is where I think Android needs to eventually end up.
Obviously if your hardware didn't warrant the software upgrade they could lock you out of a certain upgrade or warn you that it may cause significant issues with your device.
I can't wait to find out more about this =]
IMO, the defragmentation comes from the individual phone manufacturer, and different phone specs, less so than the different medium.
What they really need is something like the windows phone 7 has in terms of minimum hardware specs, certain buttons required, certain hardware, etc. That still allows a wide range of devices but allows for some conaistency. Google also needs to start taking over the updating of the phones which will help as well. Relying on manufacturers and carriers does not bode well for upgrades.
Tapped from my CherryPi Atrix
termleech said:
What they really need is something like the windows phone 7 has in terms of minimum hardware specs, certain buttons required, certain hardware, etc. That still allows a wide range of devices but allows for some conaistency. Google also needs to start taking over the updating of the phones which will help as well. Relying on manufacturers and carriers does not bode well for upgrades.
Tapped from my CherryPi Atrix
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Click to collapse
We're one step closer if ICS devices will no longer have physical buttons.
Does this mean Icecream cannot be installed on current Android phones?
SaqibArif said:
Does this mean Icecream cannot be installed on current Android phones?
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Click to collapse
It means that Devs will need to port it to older hardware, especially the phones that came out w/o 1GHz cores Single cores...Like the Legend, G1, Aria, Droid 1, hero, X10, etc...But phones with Sense or Touchwiz, or Timescape, or LG UI, will be waiting longer for a official update instead. ICS will most likely be intensive on the older phones that are weaker, Gingerbread kills many older phones already, so imagine ICS on them.
Ace42 said:
It means that Devs will need to port it to older hardware, especially the phones that came out w/o 1GHz cores Single cores...Like the Legend, G1, Aria, Droid 1, hero, X10, etc...But phones with Sense or Touchwiz, or Timescape, or LG UI, will be waiting longer for a official update instead. ICS will most likely be intensive on the older phones that are weaker, Gingerbread kills many older phones already, so imagine ICS on them.
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Click to collapse
You're actually correct except the fact that google said themselves at google IO before showing the digital zoom based on vocal recognition that ICS would have -no- hardware requirements so I think that it would be more intensive, but still optimized for the phones. Kind of like how you can run Linux on damn near anything.
Indirect said:
You're actually correct except the fact that google said themselves at google IO before showing the digital zoom based on vocal recognition that ICS would have -no- hardware requirements so I think that it would be more intensive, but still optimized for the phones. Kind of like how you can run Linux on damn near anything.
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Click to collapse
Didn't know they stated that, well I guess that's good news for everyone then. But the performance on older phones is still questionable.
With the number of different devices utilizing different hardware sets, it will be damn near impossible to establish one version to fit all devices unless they take the windows approach on desktops and allow the user to apply driver updates separately from their device manufacturers.
Also there is the other issue with app fragmentation where folks like nvidia are paying the developers to use device specific codes to make the apps not compatible with other devices instead of utilizing standard openGL which is nearly identical.
I think that standardizing the android 'experience' with a standard set of buttons or hardware requirements is ultimately an exercise in futility. People still see the smartphone world in terms of manufacturers, not in terms of operating systems, and no amount of standardization is going to change the fact that when you look at your phone, you see Samsung or HTC, not android.
I think the question is more, do consumers really need to know or care whether their device runs android or something else? I think not. Your average consumer makes choices of phone based on hardware reliability, cost, carrier availability, aesthetic, popularity, and many other factors. I'm not completely discounting user experience, but I don't think it's as prominent in the decision making process as the enthusiasts assume (the decision making process of the general populace that is). When you consider this, fragmentation of the operating system across many different manufacturers really doesn't make much of a difference to the image of the OS itself.
The only reason that android fragmentation is even an issue/concept whose consequences need to be pondered is because on the other side of the fence we have Apple making consistent hardware that runs on the same OS, and making boatloads of money off it. On the other hand, android is doing fine (and exceeding the iOS market share in many markets) even though it has this market fragmented across many different manufacturers.
Google needs to fix the fragmentation!!!
Niksko said:
I think that standardizing the android 'experience' with a standard set of buttons or hardware requirements is ultimately an exercise in futility. People still see the smartphone world in terms of manufacturers, not in terms of operating systems, and no amount of standardization is going to change the fact that when you look at your phone, you see Samsung or HTC, not android.
I think the question is more, do consumers really need to know or care whether their device runs android or something else? I think not. Your average consumer makes choices of phone based on hardware reliability, cost, carrier availability, aesthetic, popularity, and many other factors. I'm not completely discounting user experience, but I don't think it's as prominent in the decision making process as the enthusiasts assume (the decision making process of the general populace that is). When you consider this, fragmentation of the operating system across many different manufacturers really doesn't make much of a difference to the image of the OS itself.
The only reason that android fragmentation is even an issue/concept whose consequences need to be pondered is because on the other side of the fence we have Apple making consistent hardware that runs on the same OS, and making boatloads of money off it. On the other hand, android is doing fine (and exceeding the iOS market share in many markets) even though it has this market fragmented across many different manufacturers.
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Click to collapse
Very well said!
I'm sure there will be plenty of ICS support for older devices from the dev community. I'd expect most, if not all of the devices currently supported by
Cyanogenmod to see an ICS upgrade when the time comes.
looks like i should wait a bit more longer b4 i upgrade some of my hardware
Lots of life left in the the super HTC Desire yet then....
Nice, I will enjoy seeing ICS hit retail, if for nothing else the conversations on this forum, lol.
yes of course...
it'll be 3 main pockets
all the hardware that was on 2.3.x GB are automatically compatible with ICS 4.x, so all those automatically will join the 4.x cloud
but we have all the 2.2 Froyo and 2.1 Eclair hardware that are too old for ICS both of those becomes 1 cloud, most 2.1 devices are already on 2.2 anyways.
so the last cloud are those super old 1.5 devices
so in reality we are better off now than before
if you imagine a pie chart it'll be like 1% AOSP 1.5.x devices 49% 2.2 AOSP devices, and 50% ICE 4.x devices
iLiberate said:
Google says that Ice Cream Sandwich will defragment the Android OS. Obviously it will defragment in terms of bringing together phones, tablets & google TV but an iDevice level of defragmentation? I.E, all devices having the ability to upgrade to the latest version of the OS immediately or even eventually? It seems possible but it doesn't seem probable, but that is where I think Android needs to eventually end up.
Obviously if your hardware didn't warrant the software upgrade they could lock you out of a certain upgrade or warn you that it may cause significant issues with your device.
I can't wait to find out more about this =]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
amaliapika said:
yes of course...
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Click to collapse
Haha, love that you bumped a 6 month old thread with "yes of course". Struggling to reach 10 posts eh?
A tenuous connection but a thread in the Galaxy S2 forum leads me to wonder whether the present popularity of Android is a bubble about to burst in the very near future.
Why? Fragmentation, of course.
This is still such a serious concern I find it astonishing that Google isn't doing more to address the issue - Icecream Sandwich is rumoured to merge the phone and tablet ecosystems but it doesn't address the fundamental problem.
Taking a quick look at the Android Market gives us a clearer understanding. It's now so difficult to reliably develop for multiple devices, we even have multiple markets. EA release on one, then there's Tegra Zone, Gameloft, and many others. Divide it further by Android version and region, and it's no wonder that Google is panicking about low app sales.
Then we have the compatibility problems between phones. The most common review on most new apps is a one-star "Doesn't work on my [insert phone]. Uninstalled." Yet this is an app that worked perfectly in the emulator on multiple Android versions and on the developer's own device, and the support from Google is non-existent.
This is the case even on the simplest apps because they're expected to take into account almost unbelievably complicated hardware configurations. Look at the way Samsung handle their internal storage by referring to it as "/sdcard", with the actual SD card in a subdirectory and called "external_sd". Except when you look at it in a memory manager, you get "System Storage", "USB Storage", and "SD Card." Doesn't work? No bloody wonder!
Now take into account anything that uses OpenGL. You'd think that this would work across all devices but no, vastly different architectures leave a pond of 3D-ness with little islands of individual game compatibility.
On one front you have incredibly powerful devices such as the Galaxy S2, on the other you have the capable Tegra platform being pushed like crazy by nVidia who offer support on condition that games are locked to their platform. Could you imagine where we'd be without Chainfire, who's stunning insight allows us to share most of these games across all platforms.
But why didn't Google do this? The openness of Android is a great thing - even though, of course, it's not really open any more - yet this wide hardware and software ecosystem may well be its downfall.
Consider Windows Phone 7 (have one of these in addition to my Android phone). 18 months ago it was considered a laughing stock by the community - now, it's charging ahead with Mango, the update will be released to every single phone regardless of age, the app store is filling up with useful apps, and Google and Apple are both running scared.
So... is it the end of Android as we know it?
...... You really shouldn't ask yourself easy questions. So your saying a metro pcs android phone should be able to handle everything in the market? At no point when my girl bought her netbook did she think that it could handle crysis.
So in your perfect world android should only be one certain type of hardware. Also most likely one form factor.
Fragmentation has never affected me
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using xda premium
Sorry I don't post all that often but anyhoo, this I felt compelled to reply to because you're trying to compare a banana to a small weasel.
I owned a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone. What a piece of junk. And app development was a nightmare. It was like Android, running on a plethora of different hardware configurations, but also unlike Android in that it had no centralized app repository nor any sort of openness or support for non-Windows platforms.
And now you have Windows Phone 7, which has addressed all the shortcomings of 6.5 and early with an entirely new approach, and yes, it is definitely one way of solving a problem. But they've also done what Microsoft does best and browbeaten vendors into meeting their minimum standards for phones, which is *why* there's near-perfect app support. You buy a WinMo phone yep, you can guarantee it'll run apps because they're all built to a minimum standard which is not minimal at all.
I have my beautiful little heavily hacked T-Mobile Comet that I got free with a contract extension. It might be a little slow sometimes but it lets me read my books and make my calls and listen to my tunes and it's all I need from a smart phone. You can run servers on it and connect to work networks and block ads and all manner of things that can never be done without great difficulty on a platform like Win Phone 7.
The sheer might and majesty of Android is in the "fragmentation." I can run the latest 2.3 on a phone built for 2.2, overclock well past factory, and it doesn't blink or drain battery in half an hour. The specs are WAY below what would be considered the "minimum" for a Windows Phone and yet here it is running the latest and greatest without complaint. It wouldn't even get past the bootloader with Windows. I love that. You can accomplish so much with Android, in fact if there's a bug you can usually figure out how to fix it yourself or find a dev who has an idea on the subject.
I'll gladly take Firefox not being built for my phone yet over Windows where I might never see crucial software. There're other web browsers out there and the great thing about Android is, eventually it'll either be built officially or somebody'll figure out how to compile it. Good luck finding that with Windows Phone 7.
Huge time for us droid users on Verizon Wireless, some heavy hitting phones come out and i wanted to get some feedback from the developer community on the NEXUS side of things because initially this was the one device i really wanted.
Are you all still sold on the NEXUS even though its hardware specs are considerably less than what is offered by the:
HTC Rezound
(Dual 1.5 Ghz / True HD display, Pure Beats Audio SDcard/HDMI)
Motorolla RAZR
(Dual 1.2 Super AMOLED Advanced display and high quality materials in build/HDMI/SDCard -granted no removable battery )?
Do you think it would be better to go with the hardware and root/flash to Ice cream Sandwich later on?
I can confirm that Verizon is going to load this phone up with all sorts of preinstalled junk but obviously this is removable by anyone who roots their device, but how easy will it be to root something on 4.0 given that there isnt much out there for it?
I personally was dying for a Droid with Icecream Sandwich on it but im afraid to jump on board with Samsung again because of the known issues with the antennae in the phone (dropping service, poor 4G to 3G transition, all of which are confirmed issues with have haunted Verizon's 4G Samsung offerings)
-sigh- Yet another thread about comparing specs...
The GNexus has already been rooted. And it'll run pure Android over an unlock(ed/able) bootloader, so there would be little standing in the way of rooting it otherwise.
I've been waiting on the GN for about a year, ever since I started getting tired of my OG's sluggish performance.
_hyperdude said:
-sigh- Yet another thread about comparing specs...
The GNexus has already been rooted. And it'll run pure Android over an unlock(ed/able) bootloader, so there would be little standing in the way of rooting it otherwise.
I've been waiting on the GN for about a year, ever since I started getting tired of my OG's sluggish performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well it kind of surprises me there isnt a clear winner among these devices on this site. Why one over the other when your going to root and rom it anyways so why look at anything but hardware? If this isnt the case then maybe i need to be educated.
Also didnt mean it as really a "specs" comparison. I know the other ones are better, I just wanted to hear if you all think 4.0 is that much better that its worth going for this device or if there was some magic bullet in the samsung that just made it a clear victor
Droid RAZR: MotoBlur
HTC Rezound: HTC Sense 3.5
Galaxy Nexus: Stock Android 4.0
Galaxy Nexus wins. Game over. Thread closed.
PsychoSimatic said:
Well it kind of surprises me there isnt a clear winner among these devices on this site. Why one over the other when your going to root and rom it anyways so why look at anything but hardware? If this isnt the case then maybe i need to be educated.
Also didnt mean it as really a "specs" comparison. I know the other ones are better, I just wanted to hear if you all think 4.0 is that much better that its worth going for this device or if there was some magic bullet in the samsung that just made it a clear victor
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Listen. This phone was the phone Google used to DEVELOP ICS. Which means by nature its going to have the best time running ICS. That's why I'm getting it, and I'm sure why some others are attracted to the Nexus Line
I am my mom's "little elitest"
Deal with it!
PsychoSimatic said:
Well it kind of surprises me there isnt a clear winner among these devices on this site. Why one over the other when your going to root and rom it anyways so why look at anything but hardware? If this isnt the case then maybe i need to be educated.
Also didnt mean it as really a "specs" comparison. I know the other ones are better, I just wanted to hear if you all think 4.0 is that much better that its worth going for this device or if there was some magic bullet in the samsung that just made it a clear victor
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also have to consider bootloaders and xda development.... since you are posting here, you must be interested in enhancement of your phone.
When you add those to the overall specs, and that the nexus is a world phone... (added development on xda) its hard not to chose the GN, IMHO.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using xda premium
PsychoSimatic said:
HTC Rezound
(Dual 1.5 Ghz / True HD display, Pure Beats Audio SDcard/HDMI)
Motorolla RAZR
(Dual 1.2 Super AMOLED Advanced display and high quality materials in build/HDMI/SDCard -granted no removable battery )?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just some thoughts.
The Rezound's 1.5GHz qualcomm chip is probably slower than the 1.2GHz OMAP4460. The Nexus is also a 'true' 720p display (sub-pixel arrangement doesn't change that,) the Beats label was laughed out of the audiophile world and into smartphones - where it became an equalizer that accentuates bass. In addition, the Rezound uses MHL for video-out (HDMI,) just like the Nexus
The RAZR is much more comparable to the Nexus. The Nexus has a far superior screen, but you lose out on the microSD slot and the build materials (and ultra-thinness.) The dedicated HDMI port is a boon though, since MHL displays are nonexistant at this point. Funnily enough, my main con with the RAZR is the supercolossal side bezel.
For me it's between the Nexus and the RAZR. If there turns out to be no 32GB GSM Nexus, or if I can't get it here, I'll take a hard look at the RAZR. And probably end up waiting for a Tegra 3 phone instead.
You make it sound like there's a phone that doesn't have bad 3G to 4G transitions on Verizon. They all have issues as far as I know. Whether the nexus has decent reception or not we won't know until later...but no reason to assume any worse.
S
PsychoSimatic said:
Huge time for us droid users on Verizon Wireless, some heavy hitting phones come out and i wanted to get some feedback from the developer community on the NEXUS side of things because initially this was the one device i really wanted.
Are you all still sold on the NEXUS even though its hardware specs are considerably less than what is offered by the:
HTC Rezound
(Dual 1.5 Ghz / True HD display, Pure Beats Audio SDcard/HDMI)
Motorolla RAZR
(Dual 1.2 Super AMOLED Advanced display and high quality materials in build/HDMI/SDCard -granted no removable battery )?
Do you think it would be better to go with the hardware and root/flash to Ice cream Sandwich later on?
I can confirm that Verizon is going to load this phone up with all sorts of preinstalled junk but obviously this is removable by anyone who roots their device, but how easy will it be to root something on 4.0 given that there isnt much out there for it?
I personally was dying for a Droid with Icecream Sandwich on it but im afraid to jump on board with Samsung again because of the known issues with the antennae in the phone (dropping service, poor 4G to 3G transition, all of which are confirmed issues with have haunted Verizon's 4G Samsung offerings)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Nexus is far superior in EVERY aspect. Even in specs. Nexus has OMAP 4460 Razr has OMAP 4430 and Rezound has the same ol MSM8660. The Nexus is UNDERCLOCKED at 1.2 ghz and the 4460 usually runs at 1.5 ghz stock. Not to mention the software on the Nexus which is obviously 4.0 has been built around that specific hardware. So if Google optimized ICS for that specific hardware setup that shows you something. It will run better on that setup then any other around. Not to mention you can OEM unlock the Nexus and you'll have to wait for exploits on the Rezound and the Razr you'll get some awful bootstrap application that won't even save you in a soft brick situation. To me the superior device is so obvious. The Razr is clearly marketed towards the average everyday user who just wants to make calls/text browse the web and do dumb things like Facebook. The Rezound will most likely be able to do the same things that the Nexus will be able to do though as long as it gets s-off (which I'm pretty sure it will, but when will it is the question). The development community is going to be absolutely HUGE on the Nexus, I am willing to bet it's going to be the biggest development community on a VZW phone since the original Moto DROID. Once again the choice is a no brainer to me and the majority of the people I know in the community. Nobody wants that crappy Razr and HTC does have nice hardware but they really need to switch up their style of devices. They are sexy as hell but the same old style is getting old IMO. Time for a little change HTC!
---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------
itsjusttim said:
Also have to consider bootloaders and xda development.... since you are posting here, you must be interested in enhancement of your phone.
When you add those to the overall specs, and that the nexus is a world phone... (added development on xda) its hard not to chose the GN, IMHO.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhhh, when did the Nexus become a world phone? The LTE version is NOT a world phone at all, and it's pretty clear that's the version he's talking about since he's comparing it to others on VZW.
Nice...
Honestly this was exactly the response i was hoping for, thank you
now im literally foaming at the mouth to get my nexus
martonikaj said:
Droid RAZR: MotoBlur
HTC Rezound: HTC Sense 3.5
Galaxy Nexus: Stock Android 4.0
Galaxy Nexus wins. Game over. Thread closed.
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Click to collapse
THIS and everything about it.
The following is not my writing but it more or less sums up my feelings on the Android Universe.
http://www.technobuffalo.com/compan...-looking-at-android-all-wrong-user-submitted/
RVDigital said:
THIS and everything about it.
The following is not my writing but it more or less sums up my feelings on the Android Universe.
http://www.technobuffalo.com/compan...-looking-at-android-all-wrong-user-submitted/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to disagree with this post, and what that user said in his.
They are not different operating systems. As much as you think Sense, Blur, and TouchWiz are different OSes or whatever, its just a SKIN. A theme. That's it. Nexus devices are just pure Android with no Skinning.
So you can take an HTC, Motorola or Samsung device, root it, and install an AOSP Rom of your choice. CM7 for example, and look... you have a pure Android Device too. You can't however, take an iPhone and install a fully functional Android OS on it.
So I look at devices for their hardware, not themeing or skins that can be easily removed and replaced. I can't however take out the CPU and drop something newer or better in it... or change out a monitor/display like you can on a desktop.
Sent from my SCH-I400 using Tapatalk
Tornlogic said:
I have to disagree with this post, and what that user said in his.
They are not different operating systems. As much as you think Sense, Blur, and TouchWiz are different OSes or whatever, its just a SKIN. A theme. That's it. Nexus devices are just pure Android with no Skinning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never said that they are completely different OSes, but they're pretty darn close (looking at you, Sense). My point is that although it is just a skin, you can't remove it. You can't get rid of it, and you can't disable it out of the box.
So you can take an HTC, Motorola or Samsung device, root it, and install an AOSP Rom of your choice. CM7 for example, and look... you have a pure Android Device too. You can't however, take an iPhone and install a fully functional Android OS on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, who said anything about an iPhone? Going to disregard that part.
Yes, obviously you can root and custom ROM your phone. But why should I have to root my phone just to get the experience that I want? Is it too much to ask to just get the OS and setup I want right out of the box? Or at least have the option to turn off the OEM and carrier **** they put on it?
So I look at devices for their hardware, not themeing or skins that can be easily removed and replaced. I can't however take out the CPU and drop something newer or better in it... or change out a monitor/display like you can on a desktop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to respectfully disagree. The hardware specs are good to keep in mind, but they aren't everything. The difference of a couple hundred mhz processor, or slightly different memory config, or dimensions don't have to be the only thing you factor your buying decision on.
With a device like a Nexus, you can really consider the phone for its entire experience, and what it comes out of the box as. You've got to realize that sometimes that's important to people. I shouldn't have to buy a phone and root it the moment I get home just to have a usable experience. And I know its stupid, but I just can't keep supporting companies that completely destroy Android like that.
You can have fun buying your phone and waiting for a root method, then flashing a new ROM and watching as dev support drops off and you're left with an old ROM on your phone. I'm going Nexus this time around, and don't plan on doing anything else.
Tornlogic said:
I have to disagree with this post, and what that user said in his.
They are not different operating systems. As much as you think Sense, Blur, and TouchWiz are different OSes or whatever, its just a SKIN. A theme. That's it. Nexus devices are just pure Android with no Skinning.
So you can take an HTC, Motorola or Samsung device, root it, and install an AOSP Rom of your choice. CM7 for example, and look... you have a pure Android Device too. You can't however, take an iPhone and install a fully functional Android OS on it.
So I look at devices for their hardware, not themeing or skins that can be easily removed and replaced. I can't however take out the CPU and drop something newer or better in it... or change out a monitor/display like you can on a desktop.
Sent from my SCH-I400 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Consider the following...
Saying Sense, TouchWiz, and MotoBlur are simply "Skins" on top of stock AOSP is like saying Ubuntu, Mint Linux, and the various other Debian Bases are "Skins" of Debian. Yes, they all share the same BASE, but this is the only thing they have in common. HTC, Samsung, and Moto have deeply integrated their UIs into the Android platform and have basically made it their own.
As the poster above me stated, the skins cannot be simply removed. If that was the case, I would have AOSP on my EVO 3D by now. Since HTC has decided to deeply integrate their drivers into their Sense Android Operating system framework, "Vanilla Android" is not possible at this time.
RVDigital said:
Consider the following...
Saying Sense, TouchWiz, and MotoBlur are simply "Skins" on top of stock AOSP is like saying Ubuntu, Mint Linux, and the various other Debian Bases are "Skins" of Debian. Yes, they all share the same BASE, but this is the only thing they have in common. HTC, Samsung, and Moto have deeply integrated their UIs into the Android platform and have basically made it their own.
As the poster above me stated, the skins cannot be simply removed. If that was the case, I would have AOSP on my EVO 3D by now. Since HTC has decided to deeply integrate their drivers into their Sense Android Operating system framework, "Vanilla Android" is not possible at this time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. Yes, Sense/Touchwiz/Blur are "skins" or themes over Android, but it goes deeper than that. It's not just a theme like you see themes for different ROMs coming out (where different colors and background images are used) - it goes down to the firmware level, with drivers to run the redesigned apps and add extra functionality (or take some away).
RVDigital said:
Consider the following...
Saying Sense, TouchWiz, and MotoBlur are simply "Skins" on top of stock AOSP is like saying Ubuntu, Mint Linux, and the various other Debian Bases are "Skins" of Debian. Yes, they all share the same BASE, but this is the only thing they have in common. HTC, Samsung, and Moto have deeply integrated their UIs into the Android platform and have basically made it their own.
As the poster above me stated, the skins cannot be simply removed. If that was the case, I would have AOSP on my EVO 3D by now. Since HTC has decided to deeply integrate their drivers into their Sense Android Operating system framework, "Vanilla Android" is not possible at this time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ubuntu, Mint, Debian are all just distros; Sense, TouchWiz, and MotoBlur are just skins. They are not operating systems. The operating systems are, in the first case, GNU/Linux; and in the second case, Android. The operating system provides a set of libraries and defines a set of standards for programs to run on the OS. Just like any program made for GNU/Linux on x86 will run on any x86 system running GNU/Linux, regardless of whether it's running Debian or Ubuntu or Mint, any program made for Android on ARMv7 will run on any ARMv7 system running Android, regardless of whether it's running TouchWiz or Sense or MotoBLUR. In the case of Ubuntu, Debian, Mint etc. we call them distros because they include a set of choices of components in addition to the GNu/Linux base system (package managers, window managers, desktop environments, etc.). In the case of TouchWiz, Sense, etc. we call them skins because they include a customized look & feel and a set of additional applications and widgets that run on top of the OS. You might argue that these might be called distros, but that's a bit of a stretch because the customizations provided by these don't extend far beyond the look & feel and some additional utilities that run on top of the Android base system, and possibly some native drivers for each manufacturer's hardware. It is not quite as extensive a customization as a distro, they are more like standard Android bundled with a custom skin and some additional apps and drivers. They are certainly not different OSes.
Chirality said:
Ubuntu, Mint, Debian are all just distros; Sense, TouchWiz, and MotoBlur are just skins. They are not operating systems. The operating systems are, in the first case, GNU/Linux; and in the second case, Android. The operating system provides a set of libraries and defines a set of standards for programs to run on the OS. Just like any program made for GNU/Linux on x86 will run on any x86 system running GNU/Linux, regardless of whether it's running Debian or Ubuntu or Mint, any program made for Android on ARMv7 will run on any ARMv7 system running Android, regardless of whether it's running TouchWiz or Sense or MotoBLUR. In the case of Ubuntu, Debian, Mint etc. we call them distros because they include a set of choices of components in addition to the GNu/Linux base system (package managers, window managers, desktop environments, etc.). In the case of TouchWiz, Sense, etc. we call them skins because they include a customized look & feel and a set of additional applications and widgets that run on top of the OS. You might argue that these might be called distros, but that's a bit of a stretch because the customizations provided by these don't extend far beyond the look & feel and some additional utilities that run on top of the Android base system, and possibly some native drivers for each manufacturer's hardware. It is not quite as extensive a customization as a distro, they are more like standard Android bundled with a custom skin and some additional apps and drivers. They are certainly not different OSes.
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I realize that the analogy I provided is not a 1:1 example. I will substitute "Branch" for my use of the word "Distro" in the previous example to better explain the point of view.
In reply to your post I ask, how do you explain the deep framework integration manufactures such as HTC utilize to a point where the removal of such framework from the base AOSP causes hardware to stop functioning? I cant simply accept that this is a "Skin" of the base, I see HTC Sense as a BRANCH of the Android base.
The point is, its not even close to Google's idea or implementation of Android. When you add things to the base experience, you're going to run into unique (positive/negative) consequences that one otherwise wouldn't with AOSP. Take for example, HTCs recent controversy over their "Spyware" that was integrated into the Sense branch.
RVDigital said:
I realize that the analogy I provided is not a 1:1 example. I will substitute "Branch" for my use of the word "Distro" in the previous example to better explain the point of view.
In reply to your post I ask, how do you explain the deep framework integration manufactures such as HTC utilize to a point where the removal of such framework from the base AOSP causes hardware to stop functioning? I cant simply accept that this is a "Skin" of the base, I see HTC Sense as a BRANCH of the Android base.
The point is, its not even close to Google's idea or implementation of Android. When you add things to the base experience, you're going to run into unique (positive/negative) consequences that one otherwise wouldn't with AOSP. Take for example, HTCs recent controversy over their "Spyware" that was integrated into the Sense branch.
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It's not framework integration that's preventing you from using AOSP on your HTC device, it's the availability of device drivers. If HTC made all their device drivers available in source form, then you can just build these for AOSP and use AOSP on HTC devices with full functionality. The skin and the drivers can be decoupled - the skin may contain certain utilities that depend on some drivers to function, but the drivers shouldn't depend on the skin or its included apps to function. Imagine if Asus designed some special hardware that runs on their x86-based computers and sold a version of Windows that includes these special drivers that are not available anywhere else, then you have to buy Asus' version of Windows to run on these Asus computers, but it's still just Windows, with some extra drivers, not a fork of Windows. Of course you can't do this with Windows since it's a proprietary system, but it's done with Linux and Android, for better or worse.
Quick question: Do you guys think that the distribution of developer support for these phones? After all, the reason that most of us are here are because of the community, and its the dev community is what makes phones today great, and I just want to pick a phone that will have a large developer following.
Chirality said:
It's not framework integration that's preventing you from using AOSP on your HTC device, it's the availability of device drivers. If HTC made all their device drivers available in source form, then you can just build these for AOSP and use AOSP on HTC devices with full functionality. The skin and the drivers can be decoupled - the skin may contain certain utilities that depend on some drivers to function, but the drivers shouldn't depend on the skin or its included apps to function. Imagine if Asus designed some special hardware that runs on their x86-based computers and sold a version of Windows that includes these special drivers that are not available anywhere else, then you have to buy Asus' version of Windows to run on these Asus computers, but it's still just Windows, with some extra drivers, not a fork of Windows. Of course you can't do this with Windows since it's a proprietary system, but it's done with Linux and Android, for better or worse.
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The problem is HTC does NOT provide the necessary driver source and thus it remains closed. They have taken an originally open source platform and effectively locked it down, short of closing it. I have a hard time understanding how this can simply be called a "Skin". Nothing about Sense is necessary for the Android experience, it's simply paint, wallpaper, and furniture.
It's like comparing Oranges and Grapefruit. Similar, even in the same family, but NOT the same.
Why is it not possible to "just" install latest Android on entry-level phones
I'm just curious, given that android has a linux kernel ( although modified ).
Why is it not possible to just download the latest android os and install
it on any 600+ Mhz 256+ Mb ram entry level phone.
I understand that it takes forever for phone companies ( samsung, htc, etc )
to issue updates because they have to tailor a lot of custom signature
bloatware for their updates, which in some instances makes it not possible
to provide updates on older phones.
But for a pure vanilla install, I just don't see why Google or the Android
division can't release the base OS that people may install on the fly, never
mind if it wipes everything out. I know for a fact that the latest ubuntu / linuxmint
can be installed on hardware from over 5 years ago, with less than 10%
of the current high end specs; this ( for me ) makes android landscape
rather confusing... and quite deceptive.
It as alot to do with the different drivers each device.uses for the radio, screen, touch button and so on.
You have to take into account device-specific drivers, hardware, and a lot more. Imagine if every time a new version of Android was released, devs would have to prepare for every possible legacy chip, and new ones. Android would be a huge, bloated mess. It just isn't feasible.
Plus, from a carrier/phone manufacturer point of view, if you could just get the latest features by installing a simple update, than what would be the incentive for you to buy a new phone?
Hopefully this is a semi-helpful explanation (I'm sure I've left out some stuff that some others will add).
@closeone, I don't see why this can't be feasible. this is exactly what linux distributions already do, release new versions and still provide support for old devices.
I can understand the carrier/phone manufacturer perspective, it is what it is.
But what i don't get is why android development can't provide complete support, for at least the devices released from a year ago. At some point, these devices still
have to comply to certain standards;
Ultimately, I'm getting the impression that Google is starting to expect the users to throw away their smartphones year in and year out.
prokofiev said:
@closeone, I don't see why this can't be feasible. this is exactly what linux distributions already do, release new versions and still provide support for old devices.
I can understand the carrier/phone manufacturer perspective, it is what it is.
But what i don't get is why android development can't provide complete support, for at least the devices released from a year ago. At some point, these devices still
have to comply to certain standards;
Ultimately, I'm getting the impression that Google is starting to expect the users to throw away their smartphones year in and year out.
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No you can but like Linux it takes some work to get proper drivers and hardware features. The Android OS is a developer based platform. So it can be done. Look at CM they do it just fine. It is alot of work though
ok, I'll concede that it takes time and effort to achieve this goal. Still,
I'm inclined to think that a huge company like Google behind this platform,
they can do for android what Ubuntu, Debian, etc. do for Linux.
prokofiev said:
@closeone, I don't see why this can't be feasible. this is exactly what linux distributions already do, release new versions and still provide support for old devices.
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You would have to get all the different device manufacturers in the world to not only release their proprietary driver code but, for a standard one for all rom, include all possible drivers in it.
Linux comes on discs and can afford to use lots of space for drivers that a basic phone could not.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Can anyone answer me these 2 questions? They're just eating away at me right now and its making me so confus.
1) Why does each Android device need to be individually updated to the latest OS? I mean they say its because the hardware is different on each device but look @ desktops and laptops, there are so many variable hardware parts yet every time Windows updates the old hardware is compatible with the new OS and updating is a breeze. Why is this so different for Android?
2) Why do manufacturers feel the need to lock phones down so much? For example, the only thing holding us back from having a functioning ICS ROM is the RIL, which Sammy refuses to release. Carriers and manufacturers alike get so much hate for always lagging on updating our phones to the latest OS, but if our phones werent so locked down they would never have to worry about updating a phone again because the dev community would take care of all of that for us. And if they decide that one of the 3rd party dev releases should be released OTA instead of forcing us to go online and do it ourselves then they could contact the developer and compensate them for their work so they could get permission to release it. They save time and the devs get money for something they normally do for free. Win win from my perspective.
It comes down to drivers. Computers are a mix of parts that weren't necessary built to work together in the exact combination, so all of the manufacturers provide drivers to make their parts talk to the OS in a common language. Android phones have this too, but the drivers aren't generally available to us a users; they're only provided to the manufacturers, or written specifically by the OEM, and may be under various types of NDAs or close sources licenses. Android as an OS isn't written for a specific phone or device combination (save for the Nexus releases) and does not include the drivers, so it's up to the OEM to compile it with all the drivers needed to run on a particular piece of hardware. Without those drivers, the OS won't work with a particular device.
As for the RIL, it's my assumption that it's under a closed source license provided to the OEM. Samsung has been pretty open about things, so it's more likely it's Qualcomm/VIA that has the controls in place and completely out of Samsung's hands.
Shrike is dead-on with drivers. Lockdown is also a support issue. Support a couple hundred desktops where every tom **** and harry can do whatever they want? Service packs, patch Tuesdays. fun fun fun. lock it down and only deal with apk's that don't work or don't play well together. manageable chaos is the goal.