Database Info

Damage Theme Servers

Hi all,
Damage can you give us more info on the theme servers? We should compile a list of them and keep them in one place if possible.
Thanks

Yes, I am very interested in this too.

yes this would be sick and greatly appreciated. I thought i was the only one thinking about this.

Its ****ty people made damage want to leave right when he releases dcupdater. Hopefully he will still support it.

I was searching for it yesterday, and didn't find anything.
I'm looking forward to this, too.

don't know if you have read or not,but a lot of bs happened yesterday. damage may be gone forever. with all the work he has put into the community this is a shame.
Sent from my HERO200 using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk

^Yes, we realize that. Some of us are attempting to move on.

making my own themes.
i also just figured out what was going on, this really sucks, ehh oh well, i might have to start making themes my self, im very interested to make themes work with all of damages' themes, any one can share a link where i could get started with this project or share some knowledge. i want to make 2.1 themes. thankx in advance

i'll send you a pm whenever I get home. been working on a lot of stuff and could give you some help on some things that I was not able to find.
Sent from my HERO200 using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk

What'd they do to make him leave?:/

sweet
thanks roid that would be freaking sweet bro. looking fwd

abov3dis said:
What'd they do to make him leave?:/
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OMG ... use the search button ...

Guys, he's staying for now. Just keep on topic
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6143375&postcount=1441

If you couldn't tell, I have decided to stick around for now. The dust has settled for the most part. We know who did it and if you choose not to support that developer, that's up to you. I personally am done with it. I know who I can't trust now and will do my best to not let stuff like that bother me. What's done is done.
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What is Damageless talking about here?

TheBiles said:
What is Damageless talking about here?
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Who cares?.. Theme servers! Keep this on topic. Damage mentions that he is working on them.
damageless said:
I expect to have some themes up and going within a week or so.
Anyone who has created a theme and would like it to be put on the theme server, please PM me.
I am also working with some other devs to get an OTA updater app on their ROMs. Seems to be a pretty popular request so I will work with other ROMs to get this going ASAP.
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MIUIandroid.com gone, IRC screwed,...etc...

RT: MIUI Android: No new server - site is down indefinitely good bye and farewell to all. I'm sorry it ended this way but people wanted me out so im out.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1038643

dakoop said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1038643
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No dude go to miuiandroid.com, and read his twitter, they got screwed over the ownership of the IRC and servers by some assholes from the Droid inc community and other MIUI devs...
Our very own n_i_x was one of them...

what the hell? nooo
I cant even access the site or forums

crackedvenom2 said:
what the hell? nooo
I cant even access the site or forums
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yeah man its all gone.... the chinese guys have it running still but the english roms are dead... maybe someone else can pickup the project

Sad to see it end.

From what I recall, was nix not the one that created the IRC chat? and it still seems up.
Miui is coming to thinderbolt, fact.

jcase said:
Miui is coming to thinderbolt, fact.
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I really really hope so

miui is going nowhere its here to stay as it always has and always will be only difference is the actual devs of the devices are calling the shots now simple as that.....

Nikolai2.1 said:
RT: MIUI Android: No new server - site is down indefinitely good bye and farewell to all. I'm sorry it ended this way but people wanted me out so im out.
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Click to collapse
it was drama you might not have all the facts on MIUI is not dead miui.us will be up soon so bookmark it and follow @miuius on twitter.

just saying what i saw on twitter... they said nix locked them out of the iRC (which yes i know is still up) and theyre have ownership feuds over it.. and the site is down

Bummer <cry>

klisp said:
Bummer <cry>
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Everyone is right its probably drama, nix might be doing more good actually than harm, jcase is right, well get it either way

first off this doesn't belong in the developer forum....
second, miui isnt going anywhere like others have said.
Im working on miui for the thunderbolt and am having issues gettting service to work, since slayher/toast havent posted any source of what changes they have made to get service working. I have gone through and decompiled the frameworks and am trying to piece together this mess of decompiled code to try and get this working...
so far its not going so well. would be nice to know what they changed so i could have something to work with....

jamezelle said:
first off this doesn't belong in the developer forum....
second, miui isnt going anywhere like others have said.
Im working on miui for the thunderbolt and am having issues gettting service to work, since slayher/toast havent posted any source of what changes they have made to get service working. I have gone through and decompiled the frameworks and am trying to piece together this mess of decompiled code to try and get this working...
so far its not going so well. would be nice to know what they changed so i could have something to work with....
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yeah sorry i was confused as to where to post lol, because its MIUI and all
Thanks for the update man, didnt mean to freakout about it but i saw the tweets and it was kinda unexpected..

I had no part in running this site or any MIUI into the ground, I am simply porting what the Evo and DHD have right now. Thought I would clear that up. Anyway I've been so busy, I can't get my new miui build to flash. I've just had a lot to so since Sunday so... If anyone wants the build to take a look, PM me.

MasterMike1485 said:
it was drama you might not have all the facts on MIUI is not dead miui.us will be up soon so bookmark it and follow @miuius on twitter.
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This...
I already have miui.us bookmarked.. Can't wait til we get this rom

Lockity Lock!

We need your help as a dev!!!

wp7android.com project looking for devs to help on developing the project. if u wanna be part of the project u can email[email protected]

jglm said:
WE NEED YOUR HELP AS A DEV !!!!ON WORKING ON WP7 ANDROID PROJECT YOU WOULD GET PAID FOR IT....CONTACT [email protected] AND SAY [email protected] told u about this.
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just buy an HD7

!!!!!!1
We wanna go to the next level. Just like why doing a 3d launcher when u can buy the htc evo 3d but y people dont buy it cuz they mite not have the money for it and thats when we come and make laonchers that look like another phone so u dont have to spent money on it !!!!!!!i think it great to develop laonchers specially one like htc hd7 !!!!!!dont you think so ?
chadster214 said:
just buy an hd7
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Click to collapse

please close this i see this and think scam

jglm said:
We wanna go to the next level. Just like why doing a 3d launcher when u can buy the htc evo 3d but y people dont buy it cuz they mite not have the money for it and thats when we come and make laonchers that look like another phone so u dont have to spent money on it !!!!!!!i think it great to develop laonchers specially one like htc hd7 !!!!!!dont you think so ?
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We???? as far as I know you're the only one interested on this! I've seen your old post and I know what you're up to! Mod please close this thread.

LMAO
A scam ?what? No is not and if one of yall devs wanna get paid click the first email and send him an email im working on wp7contacts we just need more help with this great project.
raverx3x said:
please close this i see this and think scam
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?
Im not the only one in here they just dont wanna ask cuz of this what im doing cuz they know yall think it a damn sacm when its not is yall here to help or juge!!!!!
chadster214 said:
we???? As far as i know you're the only one interested on this! I've seen your old post and i know what you're up to! Mod please close this thread.
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chadster214 said:
We???? as far as I know you're the only one interested on this! I've seen your old post and I know what you're up to! Mod please close this thread.
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Actually this is not a scam. I run the website development on the project as i am no good with apps but we have over 35 different devs. Check out wp7android.com......we are currently building a new website. When it is finished i will release the url. You may not like the project but please at least check it out

jglm said:
A scam ?what? No is not and if one of yall devs wanna get paid click the first email and send him an email im working on wp7contacts we just need more help with this great project.
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This is like the thread before! someone wants to port iOS to Galaxy S 4G! you're basically asking an Orange to be turned into an Apple.

chadster214 said:
This is like the thread before! someone wants to port iOS to Galaxy S 4G! you're basically asking an Orange to be turned into an Apple.
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No this is already nearly finished. Also our project is soon to be sponsored by amazon. Later on we will work on roms for all devices but right now it is all apps, and a secret feature that we are currently developing. If you do not care about the project i fully understand but dont bash it if you know nothing about it

rizdog23 said:
No this is already nearly finished. Also our project is soon to be sponsored by amazon. Later on we will work on roms for all devices but right now it is all apps, and a secret feature that we are currently developing. If you do not care about the project i fully understand but dont bash it if you know nothing about it
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I'm not bashing.. I based this of OP previous post. why don't you guy post a proper thread if you guys are up to something? post some screenshot of the project and maybe some users will be interested.

chadster214 said:
I'm not bashing.. I based this of OP previous post. why don't you guy post a proper thread if you guys are up to something? post some screenshot of the project and maybe some users will be interested.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://wp7android.com/#1
Not difficult to click on a link. Please just give it a look. I cant post screens personally because for some reason screenshots never work on my hero cdma. Search youtube for wp7android and watch a few vids if you want to look at it.

If you have so many devs "35" and its almost done why do you need help?
sent from my sgs4g 2.3.3, finally

dsexton702 said:
If you have so many devs "35" and its almost done why do you need help?
sent from my sgs4g 2.3.3, finally
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35 dammm give me and desexton 35 devs n a week lol we would have tons of crap out lol
Sent from my SGH-i9100 using XDA Premium App

dsexton702 said:
If you have so many devs "35" and its almost done why do you need help?
sent from my sgs4g 2.3.3, finally
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this is soo true!!! 35 devs and not done?? LOL.. when I use to dev for Windows Mobile. I was devving myself!

chadster214 said:
this is soo true!!! 35 devs and not done?? LOL.. when I use to dev for Windows Mobile. I was devving myself!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Must be some really special devs
Sent from my SGH-i9100 using XDA Premium App

RaverX3X said:
Must be some really special devs
Sent from my SGH-i9100 using XDA Premium App
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I agree on this!

Bandwagoner here;
Screens on your site look shopped;
Bandwagoner out;

Screens are not shopped at all....hell you can dl the lite version of the launcher on the android market. The reason we are done yet is because we are integrating amazon into the project, we take requests for apps and will do just about any of them, and we are working on roms for 15 different phones at the moment....its not just a few apps and be done. The main apps we wanted in the beginning have been done for quite some time. And again, you are bashing the ability of some devs.....if you are better than them then put out a product of your own that is better.

Integrating Amazon...how so?
and honestly I really don't think you need our help. If this project is real, I'd love to be a beta tester, but otherwise, no thank you, our developers are busy as it is.

[Rom][Beta] Everybody Rom

Okay so before the trolls walk in i just want everyone to know i'm new to the Rom scene therefore i do not know all the rules for when you post one.
Now for the kinda cool part. I got bored today and figured i wanted to make a Rom based off of SupremeSense. But i realized i dont know everything about rom building so i took a stock based rooted rom and threw some supremesence in it but it wont boot now so what im proposing is that i post it, then you guys add your own little tweaks to it leave sceen shots and details and if its awesome(better than what i already have posted) i will replace my link with the one you provide. We will continue this until you guys stop posting. Remember im open to all suggestions.
[edit] evrybody go here if your interested in this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=26625776#post26625776

Mods Please Close This THREAD
Again, i cannot stress enough, if i'm breaking some type of forum rule please tell me so i can fix it

I like the idea, what exactly is it? Any screen shots or anything to go off?

southernstyle said:
I like the idea, what exactly is it? Any screen shots or anything to go off?
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I cant exactly get it to boot up but i do know there are smarter people out there that know what to do. But what i did was download the latest SupremeSence And a rooted stock based rom, then pulled up 7zip copy a bunch of Supreme into the Stock added a little me and flash it. My original goal was to get landscape on Supreme but i reallized i wanted to take it bigger, if you want i can pm it to you and you can upload\try to get it working

Yeah what's the goal here? You can't just take a rooted stock ROM and start adding my apk/odex files to it. Another difference between Stock and SS is resources.
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2

strapped365 said:
Yeah what's the goal here? You can't just take a rooted stock ROM and start adding my apk/odex files to it. Another difference between Stock and SS is resources.
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
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i just basicaly wanted another rom out there for us because we dont have much to choose from. And i wanted to base it off of your rom because it awesome, i figured i have a ton of spare time so might as well try

So where to begin. First off its a nice IDEA. Ill give you that much. Second off there are technical and ethical issues your facing .
The first thing you ever do is ask permission whenever you are using someone elses work,and it doesnt sound as if you asked strapped365 for permission to use it (whether he minds or not is a different story. Should always ask)
Second is like Strapped365 said you cant just open 7zip and start dragging and dropping. Its ameture ,and almost never works,
Please research. I love the fact that someone wants to learn about developing ROMS and such,but you need to make more of an effort to learn the time it takes to do this
Oh and if you have no public work to share please don't post in development section.and if you do get a public link up (if the mods are nice) then post (wip) at the title to show its not really functional . Because this is far from beta ,more like pre pre alpha as it wont even boot.
I dont really believe this belongs in this section but im not a mod
Good luck,back to betting on horses :beer:
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

notsointeresting said:
So where to begin. First off its a nice IDEA. Ill give you that much. Second off there are technical and ethical issues your facing .
The first thing you ever do is ask permission whenever you are using someone elses work,and it doesnt sound as if you asked strapped365 for permission to use it (whether he minds or not is a different story. Should always ask)
Second is like Strapped365 said you cant just open 7zip and start dragging and dropping. Its ameture ,and almost never works,
Please research. I love the fact that someone wants to learn about developing ROMS and such,but you need to make more of an effort to learn the time it takes to do this
Oh and if you have no public work to share please don't post in development section.and if you do get a public link up (if the mods are nice) then post (wip) at the title to show its not really functional .
Good luck,back to betting on horses :beer:
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
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thanks for the reality check

a large part of the mods are done between apks and jar files with editing the smali in classes.dex (if done correctly anyways) so taking one rom and another and trying to mash will almost never work like notsointeresting said above. As for there not being much to choose from, theres actually quite alot for the shift, especially in the last couple months.
newSENSE
Supreme Sense
CM-7
unofficial CM-9 builds
Cyclonic
Stock Rooted
MIUI
and many more.
theres quite a few devs busting ass and pumping out some quality work. your idea is nice and also like notso said, you def need to ask permission from other devs before trying to tear apart or manipulate a rom theyve worked hard on. there are some guides floating around though that are great assistance in making your own roms. sparksco, dodgejcr, one_love_420, and a few others i cant remember offhand have put up guides to help build kernels and compile roms. do a little reading and practicing and in no time youll be building your own custom rom too.
this by all means isnt an attack, just a confirmation of whats been posted already and some of my own opinions. good luck learning and building.

i cant seem to find a way to close this thread. Please help and i have no problem if you guys want to use my ideas. Finally, can somebody point me to a rom a kernle building thread because the ones i keep finding are phone specific
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

Hubertkilgore said:
i cant seem to find a way to close this thread. Please help and i have no problem if you guys want to use my ideas. Finally, can somebody point me to a rom a kernle building thread because the ones i keep finding are phone specific
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
http://forum.sdx-developers.com/index.php?topic=18828.0
Sent from my PG06100

Hubertkilgore said:
i cant seem to find a way to close this thread. Please help and i have no problem if you guys want to use my ideas. Finally, can somebody point me to a rom a kernle building thread because the ones i keep finding are phone specific
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
heres the kernel guide by dodgejcr:
http://forum.sdx-developers.com/?topic=18828.msg235663#msg235663
and heres sparksco's rom compiling guide:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1084697

And to close a thread a mod has to do that. Go on the xda site and click report thread at the top right and just type in close post or move it or what not
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Before this gets locked, I would like to say kudos to OP. Great idea, and hope you find your way in the community. I tried (not hard) but did try to understand developing, and quickly gave up. This community is full of smart people that make it hard for us dumber ones to really be helpful, my way of helping is to hit thanks buttons and stay in the shadows. Good luck man

question for op did you change the updater script or anything what happends when it attempts to boot ? black screen wont even flash etc..

Bfitz26 said:
question for op did you change the updater script or anything what happends when it attempts to boot ? black screen wont even flash etc..
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Click to collapse
it wont boot past my flashscreen
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

We won't even begin to identify the problem without knowing exactly what apks you copied and pasted, but due to cluttering and the bumping of this thread I'd say not to continue to help in THIS particular thread until it gets moved or you post another thread in general to help out.
Nothing against the OP at all.. I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from. whenever a reply is posted in here it puts actual development threads further down :beer:
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Everybody go look at this thread in general

Great Rom to Port :)

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2043386
Just in case anyone needed an idea on what to port
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium

K7Cobb said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2043386
Just in case anyone needed an idea on what to port
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Porting a Sense ROM is way over MY head! Nice suggestion though.

There's an issue with that ROM. Look at the very bottom part of the OP thread.
Sharing Policy
None.
You are NOT allowed to use this rom as base, to take parts of this rom, or to port this ROM. Ever.
Sure I could port it and counter their sharing policy with the license of HTC but with all due respect to Virtuous team and an avid fan of their virtuous infinity I don't wanna upset them.

Riyal said:
There's an issue with that ROM. Look at the very bottom part of the OP thread.
Sharing Policy
None.
You are NOT allowed to use this rom as base, to take parts of this rom, or to port this ROM. Ever.
Sure I could port it and counter their sharing policy with the license of HTC but with all due respect to Virtuous team and an avid fan of their virtuous infinity I don't wanna upset them.
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Click to collapse
That's rather ****-ish of them. Now I've lost any respect for them I had.

Yea I don't read a lot but y'all could take parts and build it from scratch. But still just a suggest
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Fuzi0719 said:
That's rather ****-ish of them. Now I've lost any respect for them I had.
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Click to collapse
Yeah team virtuous can blow pole for that move
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K7Cobb said:
Yea I don't read a lot but y'all could take parts and build it from scratch. But still just a suggest
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium
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Click to collapse
I'm afraid that would still violate copywright laws owned by "Virtuous Windows for Android". OH well, to each their own I suppose.

Lol I'm with Strapped
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium

Riyal said:
There's an issue with that ROM. Look at the very bottom part of the OP thread.
Sharing Policy
None.
You are NOT allowed to use this rom as base, to take parts of this rom, or to port this ROM. Ever.
Sure I could port it and counter their sharing policy with the license of HTC but with all due respect to Virtuous team and an avid fan of their virtuous infinity I don't wanna upset them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Virtuous is so bitter posting anything on XDA anymore; no wonder such a statement. If you really wanted them to allow porting, appealling in that thread will probably do the trick. When against the wall, It'd be hard to find a developer or team of developers to say no to openness.
Sent from my MyTouch 4G Slide using xda premium

WeekendsR2Short said:
I'm afraid that would still violate copywright laws owned by "Virtuous Windows for Android". OH well, to each their own I suppose.
Click to expand...
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They can't legally copyright their ROMs since 99% of it is already copyrighted by HTC and Google. There is nothing they can legally do to anybody who takes their ROM and does whatever they want with it. Even their kernels are open source, as required.

Fuzi0719 said:
They can't legally copyright their ROMs since 99% of it is already copyrighted by HTC and Google. There is nothing they can legally do to anybody who takes their ROM and does whatever they want with it. Even their kernels are open source, as required.
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Click to collapse
But I feel its crappy. Kinda like at it look what I can do but nobody else can.
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Fuzi0719 said:
They can't legally copyright their ROMs since 99% of it is already copyrighted by HTC and Google. There is nothing they can legally do to anybody who takes their ROM and does whatever they want with it. Even their kernels are open source, as required.
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Click to collapse
I know exactly where you're coming from & I agree wholeheartedly. Just throwing out a little sarcasm there. lol The only thing is, is we aren't supposed to without consent. Or that's what I've always thought anyhow.
---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
strapped365 said:
But I feel its crappy. Kinda like at it look what I can do but nobody else can.
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
There's certainly no doubt about the crappiness factor involved. Of course I look at things differently than they do and would be PROUD to have mine or the team I'm on having just the thanks & credits for a solution to an issue. I kinda thought that was what android was all about. If a person is producing apps for money....now that's a different situation. JMO tho....

WeekendsR2Short said:
I know exactly where you're coming from & I agree wholeheartedly. Just throwing out a little sarcasm there. lol The only thing is, is we aren't supposed to without consent. Or that's what I've always thought anyhow.
---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
There's certainly no doubt about the crappiness factor involved. Of course I look at things differently than they do and would be PROUD to have mine or the team I'm on having just the thanks & credits for a solution to an issue. I kinda thought that was what android was all about. If a person is producing apps for money....now that's a different situation. JMO tho....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is an "unspoken rule" among Android devs to give credit where credit is due. Hell, there'd be no kanged anything if everyone took the attitude of Virtuous. What if HTC or Google took that attitude, Virtuous would be up the feces creek, no? I think their little pointy heads have gotten too big. There's tons of stuff in all of their ROMs that comes from other people, they depend on a host of devs that came before them to put out anything with their name on it.

Fuzi0719 said:
It is an "unspoken rule" among Android devs to give credit where credit is due. Hell, there'd be no kanged anything if everyone took the attitude of Virtuous. What if HTC or Google took that attitude, Virtuous would be up the feces creek, no? I think their little pointy heads have gotten too big. There's tons of stuff in all of their ROMs that comes from other people, they depend on a host of devs that came before them to put out anything with their name on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know where you all are coming from. And no it's 100% HTC. There are no items there which came from Virtuous Team. What they only had is the technique to extract the OS from the RRU and they believe that they deserve all rights with that ROM since
"if we didn't release it on public you all wouldn't have any ROM at all"
But meh... All that's left for me to not KANG their ROM is my gratitude because they delivered a sense 4.0 ROM in our device. I must admit I didn't consider getting this device if it weren't for their ROM so yeah as much as I like to bring it here there's another side of me which respects them

Riyal said:
I know where you all are coming from. And no it's 100% HTC. There are no items there which came from Virtuous Team. What they only had is the technique to extract the OS from the RRU and they believe that they deserve all rights with that ROM since
"if we didn't release it on public you all wouldn't have any ROM at all"
But meh... All that's left for me to not KANG their ROM is my gratitude because they delivered a sense 4.0 ROM in our device. I must admit I didn't consider getting this device if it weren't for their ROM so yeah as much as I like to bring it here there's another side of me which respects them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt they wrote all the tools they use to extract the ROMs or package or modify. That's what I mean by their dependency on other devs. They've become too arrogant.

Fuzi0719 said:
I doubt they wrote all the tools they use to extract the ROMs or package or modify. That's what I mean by their dependency on other devs. They've become too arrogant.
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Click to collapse
There isn't a set of tools to pull a ROM.zip from an RUU. BUT they are the very first to reverse engineer the whole M10 thing HTC turned to in Sense 3+. Still with that being said I don't think ill ever touch another ROM that has anything to do with Team Virtuous because it seems to go against what open source is in my opinion.
Great tool = crappy attitude.
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2

Riyal said:
There's an issue with that ROM. Look at the very bottom part of the OP thread.
Sharing Policy
None.
You are NOT allowed to use this rom as base, to take parts of this rom, or to port this ROM. Ever.
Sure I could port it and counter their sharing policy with the license of HTC but with all due respect to Virtuous team and an avid fan of their virtuous infinity I don't wanna upset them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont you need libs for msm8660?

From my understanding, XDA clamping down on ROM posting requirements drove Virtuous batty. Some defected to the "other" ROM posting site (not allowed to link it here) in bitterness, some joined other development teams, and a rarer bunch is still using the Virtuous name with closed statements such as the one mentioned just to demonstrate bitterness.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201

mattlowry said:
dont you need libs for msm8660?
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I came to realize after I ported my 1st sense ROM that I don't really have to replace that much libs than I thought Actually there's more work on smali coding than replacing libs.

What about this one http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2071680 maybe these guys are OK?