It has been quite interesting to watch all those threads for the above topic which of course lead to nowhere so far.
I would not exclude myself of the dispute, however we need to think of the issue in a practical methodology and thus conclude what the facts would lead to.
There has been many complaints and unhappy people about the battery life in Touch Pro and many other models. Just a simple question I ask; What would be an acceptable avarage battery life with one full charge? I am sure responses will vary coz there is no standard expectation nor a universal benchmark for this issue!
Whatever the vendor guarantees as an operating expectency measured in hours, is more or less what you gonna get although many wont accept it, but this is it, you gotta live with it!
There are 1000s of users with 10000s of applications and conditions that have high expectations, but they all get even results, so why complain?
What I am trying to highlight is if many have expressed their dissatisfaction of the battery life, I just say; who's right & who's not? Do we all expect to have the same results? My device may run for 3 days with one charge and couple of calls throughout, others may have tougher uses and expect a battery to last for 7 days in a row with just one single charge?
Just think about it and have a collective understanding.
Cyber-mate said:
It has been quite interesting to watch all those threads for the above topic which of course lead to nowhere so far.
I would not exclude myself of the dispute, however we need to think of the issue in a practical methodology and thus conclude what the facts would lead to.
There has been many complaints and unhappy people about the battery life in Touch Pro and many other models. Just a simple question I ask; What would be an acceptable avarage battery life with one full charge? I am sure responses will vary coz there is no standard expectation nor a universal benchmark for this issue!
Whatever the vendor guarantees as an operating expectency measured in hours, is more or less what you gonna get although many wont accept it, but this is it, you gotta live with it!
There are 1000s of users with 10000s of application and conditions that have high expectations, but they all get even results, so why complain?
What I am trying to highligh is if many have expressed their dissatisfaction of the battery life, I just say; who's right & who's not? Do we all expect to have the same results? My device may run for 3 days with one charge and couple of calls throughout, others may have tougher uses and expect a battery to last for 7 days in a row with just one single charge?
Just think about it and have a collective understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ya made a wise statement here.....couldn't agree more ...
yep, 2nd that
a wm device drains a lot more battery than other phones because it does sooo much more. and its not device specific either
maybe if someone creat app to change CPU to 200- 300 and so on if don`t used for heavy apps will incress battery life. In the PSP there is app like this ans when I used it only for play music set procesor to 100 Mhz
I have had the phone for a week now. I like it. I like how pretty much everything works. I don't see much of any problem but the battery life. Why didn't they put a larger battery in. My Mogul has a 1650 in it. Yesterday morning the phone had a complete charge. I went to worship and used it very little in the morning. By noon time where I showed the phone off to a friend who is thinking of getting one, the phone charge was down below 50%. It should have been 70 or 80% and no less, IMHO.
I've posted this link before on a different section.
http://www.hardwarezone.com.au/reviews/view.php?id=2726&cid=24&pg=6
I get nearly 4 hours as well if I use mine full on. Tried watching a full length movie and my battery meter shows ~50% afterwards.
I thought OP might be interested in seeing this review.
I don't think it's really an issue of someone being right or wrong. I think 24 hours is just a particular limit for cellphones, and once it dips below that we start to worry about the next time we'll be near a power plug. After all, these are devices that we use on a daily basis.
If the batteries lasted 2-3 days, then it wouldn't be a big deal if we forgot to charge once in a while (late night, canceled flight, forgot charger, etc). But as it is, people are having trouble pushing it past 24 hours even under modrate usage, which means if they miss even one charge cycle, they're dead in the water the next day.
Of course usage is a different issue; but if you start modifying your usage habits in an effort to prolong battery life, that's still the same problem. You could turn off 3G, stop mail checking, always close background apps, etc; but without any of those features you might as well use a regular dumbphone -- no point in getting a device like the Touch Pro in the first place.
Last week we went on a short holiday. Both my girlfriend and I have a TP running RomeOS v1.13. She has a GSM prepaid card and I have a GSM/3G/H card.
Her battery lasted 4 working days occasionally calling home to check on the kids and sending a few SMS messages.
I used my phone to check email and LIVE messenger. My battery lasted no more than 20 hours.
So if you by a full featured phone, just to use it as a basic phone you won't complain that much I think. If like me you want to use a full set of features pffffffff... And if you don't mind I would like to keep it at that
My first serious WM phone (I don't count the ridiculous HP 6315) was the Samsung i730. I am a very heavy user and I got used to charging it in he car & carrying a spare battery in my pocket. If it made it to 6PM without going dead I was happy.
The Touch Pro has the same screaming 528 mhz processor speed, plus a vga screen. If it makes it to the end of the day, then I'll be more than happy (haven't received mine yet, it's in the mail). There's always a trade off for speed and resolution. I'd rather carry an extra battery than have a frustratingly slow processor.
I've had my TP for a week now and with a pretty heavy usage, my messenger is almost always on, some internet browsing and a little bit of monkey island on scummvm, my battery lasts 2 days. I can live with that.
Mr.Raato said:
I've had my TP for a week now and with a pretty heavy usage, my messenger is almost always on, some internet browsing and a little bit of monkey island on scummvm, my battery lasts 2 days. I can live with that.
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Click to collapse
Which Messenger are you using? I'm trying to find a good Google Talk client that won't drain my battery.
The battery should be expected to last a day. Past that, would be nice, but I do not feel it is necessary...
If the phone won't even last me a day (and "a day" for me is 14-16 hours at school and work) then it really isn't going to work for me. I hate trying to search for 5-10 minutes to have the phone plugged in during the middle of the day to try to extend the battery to make it just past that 12 hour mark for me.
The CDMA Touch Pro doesn't seem to do too well. Sitting idle, it had about 40% battery after 14 hours, but then dropped extremely quickly after that... I must have sent 10-12 texts and was in a call for about 10 minutes the entire day, no programs running in the background, only the cell radio turned on.
Cyber-mate said:
It has been quite interesting to watch all those threads for the above topic which of course lead to nowhere so far.
I would not exclude myself of the dispute, however we need to think of the issue in a practical methodology and thus conclude what the facts would lead to.
There has been many complaints and unhappy people about the battery life in Touch Pro and many other models. Just a simple question I ask; What would be an acceptable avarage battery life with one full charge? I am sure responses will vary coz there is no standard expectation nor a universal benchmark for this issue!
Whatever the vendor guarantees as an operating expectency measured in hours, is more or less what you gonna get although many wont accept it, but this is it, you gotta live with it!
There are 1000s of users with 10000s of applications and conditions that have high expectations, but they all get even results, so why complain?
What I am trying to highlight is if many have expressed their dissatisfaction of the battery life, I just say; who's right & who's not? Do we all expect to have the same results? My device may run for 3 days with one charge and couple of calls throughout, others may have tougher uses and expect a battery to last for 7 days in a row with just one single charge?
Just think about it and have a collective understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you 100% - except here is the problem: the vendor guarantees (well, doesn't "guarantee", but no vendor really "guarantees") a battery life that is absolutely not right.
On the Touch Pro, Sprint says the phone has a standby of 406 hours - that's 16 days! Incredibly misleading, and in my estimation definitely not accurate. That's the biggest problem I have with the whole battery issue.
Also, in comparison, my Mogul was suppose to have 340 hours of standby and 30% less talk time - but my Mogul lasted a LOT longer than this phone. I could talk, surf, play games, and have it still last longer than this phone. That doesn't make any sense.
eryeal said:
I agree with you 100% - except here is the problem: the vendor guarantees (well, doesn't "guarantee", but no vendor really "guarantees") a battery life that is absolutely not right.
On the Touch Pro, Sprint says the phone has a standby of 406 hours - that's 16 days! Incredibly misleading, and in my estimation definitely not accurate. That's the biggest problem I have with the whole battery issue.
Also, in comparison, my Mogul was suppose to have 340 hours of standby and 30% less talk time - but my Mogul lasted a LOT longer than this phone. I could talk, surf, play games, and have it still last longer than this phone. That doesn't make any sense.
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Click to collapse
Alright, alright, alright! Let's not mention the biggest and silliest gimmick PPC vendors made us believe in specially those of high-end CPU ones
I might have been worng in choosing "guarantee", but who says! When you read "Stand-by" I am sure that the vendor wouldn't in gods name mean "with any GSM/CDMA network"! I mean just think about't!! Why in heavens name would they shoot themselves in the foot by committing such a thing
I could defy anyone who would tell me that "Stand by" is a standard by itself! Haven't you read "The above are subject to network and phone usage" in phone specs?
In addition to the above, network signal strength matters and is very fundemental to extend/shorten battery life too!
Whether or not the battery was of 1300mAh or 1600mAh, it is all the CPU power management and I am pretty sure that Qualcomm is unlike the Intel XScale as the olden memories remind me of
Like most of you rightly said; change your habit and the battery life will change accordingly.
Just a last lil thought, why isn't there a quick options made available in the market for a higher amperage batteries? If one would care about the total gram units, then I recommend to live with the supplied battery.
Let's all cherish the memory of the HTC Universal, that baby was a hot long-lusty orgasmic son of gun device ever was.
I feel the term "standby time" has been used loosely, never in working with wireless phones have I found a machine that is capable of being on this long without being charged. Notice the "up to" that is always there on these kinds of stats too. What does up to mean? Probably something to do with turning off all the radios so the phone can't actually do anything, it might as well be off.
No matter what you do, computers require a lot of power to maintain themselves in any sort of "on" state. If there are any background processes happening (i.e. cellular radio sniffing for incoming calls and sms) you are really only burning power at a rate less than that of radios + screen.
Phones consume more power than phones did even a few years ago, hell they consume a lot more. Does anyone remember first-gen digital phones? 2 hours battery life, talk/standby, didn't make a difference. In fact the batteries used in mobile phones have changed (lion/nicad etc) probably a lot less than the manufacturers' ability to use less power to get the job done.
You can always strap on a bigger battery, but then you have a bigger phone, making it even HEAVIER!
Ultimately, as others have posted before me, that when you buy a touch pro, it is because you are looking for all the functionality that the machine entails. If you use all of the functions at the same time you are burning the candle at both ends. We buy a phone with a gps, bluetooth, wifi, 3g, vga screen qwerty, 3.2mp camera, etc because we need (or want) all of these features at the same time. When you are using the gps while having bluetooth on visible, screen full bright, wifi still on and music playing, don't be surprised your battery won't get you through the day.
I think that the general consensus here is that typically we should be able to get about 1 day out of the pro. Any more, we are lucky, any less, you either have a defective unit or you may have unrealistic expectations of the device.
That being said, after a few weeks go by and you find yourself actually being able to put the damn phone down for a while, battery life will seem longer too
My experience:
I've come from an XScale phone, which runs Linux and doesn't have 10% of what Pro does (like GPS, wifi, 3G, SDHC support, VGA screen, G sensor, light sensor, etc.) and even without all that it doesn't have a great battery life. I had to recharge it everyday sometimes, because I had pretty heavy use (especially A2DP audio).
With the Pro I can do that and much more and still get at least a full day of battery, which for me is good enough.
Tell me one device that has the same size does everything the Pro does with better battery life.
Unfortunately we are still to see better batteries, which I've read a lot about, especially that nanowire technology which supposedly makes them 10x better, but until then there isn't much we can do. So I don't think it's fair to blame a manufacturer, HTC or not, for poor battery life, because IMHO they did an impressive job on making such a small device with so much power, and still manage a full day of moderate use.
I find that TF3D is a real power hog too. Although I really like the interface, I am trying a run with SPB Mobile Shell instead
It is 3:30PM EST now, I unplugged the phone after a solid charge at 8PM, immediately changing to SPBMS.
It is now about 20 hours later and I have 63% remaining, that is a 37% discharge. I have been using the phone normally for the purpose of this experiment and normally the phone would be at about 30% remaining with tf3d.
There is a thread about this here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=441767
Hi All,
I'm wondering if besides the GPS, WiFi, 3G and Bluetooth.... the application processor, running at 528MHZ is not a cause for this poor battery life time?
Adrian
The reasons why we read many different opinions is that people use phones in very different ways. I can usually cope with the short battery life but sometimes it is really annoying. It just needs a few hours in a bad coverage area and the battery drains completely. Or an unexpected need for TomTom to make the battery go flat before I get back home in the evening. I used an HTC P3600 (which is a very similar phone from a featureset point of view) for two years and I never had to worry not to listen to music at the airport or on a plane because I wouldn't be able to use the phone after landing. Instead I have had this problem already twice with the Pro... this terrible battery life is really spoiling my user experience with this phone.
Smaniac said:
Tell me one device that has the same size does everything the Pro does with better battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, as I said in my previous post, discounting the hardware keyboard and the fact that it wasn't a very attractive phone my old HTC P3600 used to do exactly the same things with a much longer battery life.
I know this has been covered in many other threads but they seem to be fragmented into some suggestions for specific problems. Researching, following and applying the information, tips and software some have suggested I am still getting nowhere. My battery dies in a very short period of time - something like 4-6 hours.
I have installated, executed / implemented many of the suggestions and procedures here and on fuze-mobility to extend battery life. These are representative. I think there have been probably more but I cannot remember them.
HTC Power Management
SD Card Battery Saver
Taskmgr - to kill / stop Activiesync (replog.exec) from continuously cycling
Advanced Configuration Tool to turn on and off 3G
Registry Edit modifications on both the Fuze and associated laptop related to Activesync Update cycles
Activesync - added new server, made timing manual, deleted server.
Charging processes - Letting battery run all the way down to below 10%
Lowering brightness on my screen
I have ordered and am waiting for an extended battery for the Fuze.
The only thing I see is when viewing what is executing via the Taskmgr CPU Usage panel, I see that most of the time the Idle process is executing. (75+%). Although I have read some threads where folks have said this is good because nothing else is draining your power, just because the process says "idle" does not seem to me to be doing nothing..it is still cranking through and using cycles to go through its designated activities.
Is there a way to indicate the interval when the idle process cycles?
Anyone have this same situation? Any suggestions?
That sounds very bad. Most complaints are about it being less than a day, noy 4-6 hours.
Have you contacted HTC/your supplier to get a replacement battery?
Also, idle is not a process, it's the absence of a process...
I'm not an expert on the ARM architecture, but idle processes are processes that use the CPU when all other processes are waiting for something or when there are no other processes running. They don't necessarily do anything constructive (they essentially just 'mind' the CPU until another process needs it), but they often feed the CPU with power-saving instructions. In conclusion, ignore it - it's not causing any problems and there's no point in fiddling with it.
That sort of a battery life is absolutely ridiculous, and you've clearly had a good go at increasing it, so I my best guess would be that it's defective.
Thanks for the quick responses.
I would still like to investigate the "idle" process angle. As long as something accesses the CPU, cycles are being executed and power is being used. Depending on what the "idle" process is doing with the 75+% "time" it has control of the CPU lots of power could be being used / drained.
Not sure how to go about this yet but I'm sure there is a way to find out what is going on during the "idle" process time holding the CPU.
If anyone know please share.....
Wow, it seems like the battey life on these things just keeps getting worse and worse. I remember going from the Hermes to the Kaiser and thinking how much worse the battery life was on the Kaiser.
The features keep increasing and batteries are having a hard time keeping up, I think.
there is alot to blame here. the good news there is a fix for almost every culprit.
1st....touch flow 3d. this thing demands alot of battery life. Not too mention its always running. Att has also seem to have added a few things to the touch flo interface that may have had an impact on this as well.
2nd....the applications these days seem to be getting bigger and bigger every few months. its not uncommon to see an app eating up 7 to 10 mb of ram. jivetalk...opera...the new aim??? the thing about this....the more ram an app takes up, the more batt power is consumes.
by the way...this is not a problem native to windows mobile...take a look at Google's g1....the batt life on that phone is even worse than your stock fuze...and after i've been digging through the phone....i found out all the apps are over 5 mb....madness! Also, the iphone has had this problem....and still does. but the iphone doesn't allow for background processing....so large programs running in the background aren't really that much of an issue.
3rd...att! in a noble attempt to cram the fuze with everything under the hood and give it the title it truly deserve (a phone capable of doing everything) they've weighed the os down with crap ware.
4th...the att radio that ships with the phone....its horrid. you'd never belive how much better some of the other radios are vs. the shipped att radio. its almost ridiculous that att would ship the phone with such a poor radio.
5th....htc. The batt in the phone is no bigger than the one offered in the tilt. But lets keep in mind, the same size batt now has to power faster processor....more ram...and a brighter more high res screen. Why they didnt up the power of the batt? who the hell knows...i guess to keep the phone nice a small...but its def a trade off.
I want you to try a cooked rom....try romeos 1.4 or the new proven.....change your radio to the shipped orange....make sure you spl before doing both.
and post back. im sure you'll have a different experience.
wrjp said:
Thanks for the quick responses.
I would still like to investigate the "idle" process angle. As long as something accesses the CPU, cycles are being executed and power is being used. Depending on what the "idle" process is doing with the 75+% "time" it has control of the CPU lots of power could be being used / drained.
Not sure how to go about this yet but I'm sure there is a way to find out what is going on during the "idle" process time holding the CPU.
If anyone know please share.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to save you a ton of wasted hours in your life....or at least give you something else to waste those hours on. Stop the witch hunt on the "Idle" process. Open up the task manager on your desktop/laptop and look for the Idle process on there. If you pay attention (and do a little guessing), you'll see that the idle process consumes the remaining percentage of the CPU after the other applications have had their cut, however if you look at the total usage, you'll see that it doesn't include the Idle process.
There's a reason for this. It's lying to you....
There is no "Idle" process, it's just a way for the operating system to indicate how much processing power is not being used by applications. There's certainly something going on during those empty cycles, but it's operations that the core of the operating system is doing. Another poster mentioned that one of the things it's doing is sending power-saving instructions, which is basically true (but it's more in the form of telling the processor that there's nothing to do and letting it decide to save power).
The idle process cannot go away, and the closer you get it to 100% the better (relatively speaking, as it means you're doing nothing with the phone and removed any cool features it had). As long as the phone is on there's going to be at least a trickle of power going through the processor so the core of the operating system (i.e. Kernel) can perform it's necessary actions...just like the brain or heart does in your own body, even at rest they are still working a little bit.
Truthfully, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your battery issues. I've got a Fuze also, and the ONLY time that I saw the battery die in 6 hours was when I was talking on it for about 3 1/2 or 4 hours in one afternoon. Otherwise, that thing, even on the stock rom, has given me nothing like the trouble your describing. I've flashed NATF's rom onto it (didn't like ROMeOS that much, just felt a little too laggy for me) and the new Austrailian radio .20M1 and the battery life seems even better. I don't think you're doing something wrong, I think you've got a lemon phone. Return it to the store complaining about the battery life on it not matching that of any of the other Fuze's you've seen anybody else using, then get a new one and try that out.
4-6 hours? Consider yourself lucky. I can get that if I don't touch the phone and no one calls. If I use the phone as a normal person might, I can get 2 hours. I don't even consider it a mobile phone. It's stays plugged into something all day.
momojopoe said:
4-6 hours? Consider yourself lucky. I can get that if I don't touch the phone and no one calls. If I use the phone as a normal person might, I can get 2 hours. I don't even consider it a mobile phone. It's stays plugged into something all day.
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Click to collapse
You have a faulty battery or you don't know how to set up the phone. I'm also using HTC Raphael, and battery lasts 1,5 days with lots of usage. I think that you should search xda for battery tips&tricks, like lowering backlight, turning off WIFI, BT and other. Also, there might be a problem with the ROM and Radio you're using.
The battery was exchanged...twice...the poor battery life was present with nothing but stock apps and all the tips and tricks you suggest were tried, and then some...the problem is endemic with the fuze...I figure as much as I paid I shouldn't have to jump through all the hoops with 3rd party new roms etc. just to get my phone to work like it should...the battery is piece of crap
Hmmm, in that case it could be faulty device - there are plenty of people on Raphael subforum that are using Fuze and battery lasts for most of them 1-2 days.
Whos got Extended battery on there Att Fuze ?
Is it worth the bulk
& which one to get ?
18,00 / 2,000 diff kinds i see
with diff company
I am curious about the battery in the one x, and especially the habits of consumption.
I have been around the block with android development. I had a captivate before this, and managed to get great battery life out of that! That was much more simple however. Flash a rom, cycle the power, cycle, cycle, cycle. Then you're good to go.
I feel like the way that the one x deals with the battery is different, more advanced. Some bootloader level software that is untouched, like the hardware keys and whatnot.
My battery has been hit and miss to say the LEAST. I use BBS to take care of wakelocks, keep data and gps usage to a minimum (my regular use), and I charge my battery when the phone is dead up to 100%.
The back of my one x gets very very hot sometimes. This varies rom to rom. Started with stock sense ICS, took the OTA jelly update, now I am rooted, s-off, and on cyanogenmod 10.2 nightlies (which run insanely well btw). The issue is the same. It reacts the same, and is just as unpredictable. I have read about this, and know its a hardware issue, but I am still curious about it, as I have heard SO many different things. I am usually able to quickly curb the issue by turning on airplane mode, or turning my phone off (for a while, as rebooting doesnt seem to help).
In passing, I also read something about "HTC Charge Mode". I have read forum posts where people say things like "hold both volume keys and the power button for two minutes, this with re-calibrate the battery circuit." There are so many combinations of keys and timings that people talk about that I can't help but believe that it is all garbage.
The heating up is typically caused by camera usage, data (radio, I assume) usage, games (temple run 2, gyro), and sometimes even spotify (offline playlists). Wifi seems ok, not too much of a contributor. When I was on stock sense jellybean, I was able to fix a lot of the heating up by turning off "google location services".
The weirdest part is that if I feel the phone warming up, I can go into airplane mode like I said, and its fine. If I keep perpetuating it, however, it gets very, very hot. Hot enough, im sure, to melt soldered connections. I turn on airplane mode, and it doesnt get much better. This is when I have to turn it off. Sometimes it hurts my leg in my pocket if I absentmindedly leave data on.
So I want to know -
1) what is the deal with the battery on the one x
2) can I cycle the power like I could on my captivate?
3) if you know anything I don't about the heating up issue, please share
Thank you so much for reading! I look forward to the possible feedback!
TL;DR - please read the post! I'd really appreciate it!
One thing I do know is that after doing your initial few charge cycles when flashing a ROM, it's better to not actually let the battery level get too low before charging. I read an article by a battery scientist, he stated that continual full discharging of the battery will decrease the long term battery life. So, it's best to do top-up charges from ~40% to full charge. Obviously you can disregard this when doing your initial charge cycles.
Some of these phones heat up more than others. Having the phone in your pocket or any enclosed space for an extended period of time will encourage it to heat up. I can't remember the technical term, but it's a combination of there not being enough air flow around the device to facilitate its cooling down, and nowhere for the heat to go. So it just gets worse.
So knowing that, there are some steps you can take to mitigate the heat, even if only in a minor way.
Sent from my Evita
So, I want to buy myself 6a which would mark my first Pixel phone ever and I am really excited about the idea... But, searching the internet for experiences I kinda hinder that excitement with some concerns... Mainly:
1. "Overheating" talk: Does phone has thermal problems? I've read various threads from "It can get hot while using camera/playing games/making video calls/doing basic stuff on high brightness during summer months" to "It gets warmer naturally, maybe more than rest of the phone but that's just normal"...
So, is there consistent truth? Will the phone require me to put it down and let it cool or am I be limited with usability during summer when outside temperature reaches 35+C and I would be afraid to use it for ordinary stuff?
2. Battery reliability: Somewhere I read that battery easily gets you through the day, no matter what, some people even saying a day and a half maybe two with light use, others say if you are dependable of your phone heavy, have the charger with you.
Also, if phone really operates in a little bit warmer manner, will it hurt battery in the long run, degrade it faster than usual?
Please don't mind my concerns... Buying phone is not light investment for me, and I tend to act smartly as I can since I plan to keep it at least 3 years...
1) Non-issue. Every phone will warm up if you're pushing it really hard. These phones have really powerful processors, so they can get a bit warm, but it also has plenty of temperature sensors to make sure you don't hurt it.
2) Again, if you push it really hard, you can certainly drain the battery quickly, but there is no issue you need to worry about.
Additionally:
1) seemed to be a bigger issue when the 6a first came out. There's been several updates and I don't see many c complaining about heat lately. Even less ppl complaining that have the Beta QPR 2 updates - I'd recommend the beta update as it's good for daily useage and seems to be about perfect.
2) Your initial comments are about my experience. Most ppl seem to get 1.5 days of "normal" use but I don't think I've heard of anyone getting less than 1 day.
If you need to really squeeze out extra battery on top of that, try data saver and battery saver modes all the time. Both add about another 50% time off charge for me. I can get a good 2 days (plus a tich) with normal usage in those modes.