Related
OK so i know this is the wrong forum, BUT I came across this and wanted to "bump" it so to speak. This was posted by kyphur in 08 and in a mods sig now. Please read and adhere to the spirit of the post. It is RIGHT ON!!!
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
the idea is not that only developers should be looking at this site, but that this is a place where developers communicate with each other and the beneficiaries of their work. This is not the place for someone to post threads about general questions about how to use or mod their device. This is a place that will develop the capabilities of the android platform if it is allowed. Developers WILL abandon this forum if it becomes a bulletin board or a technical support site.....and if you need a question answered, there are other forums on THIS site to address those.
Agreed 100%. While developing for the Windows mobile, I also got the same thing. I would post a thread and WARN people of a certain things and tell them how to fix it. Then I'd get 30 pages of "geeze, you broke something. how do you fix it?" That gets annoying real fast. I would love it if this forum forced people to take a test before they could post in the development sections... Before that, they should only be able to post in the regular sections.
One thing that really bugs me is the fact that the newbs don't want to search but don't realize that they take OUR time to search FOR them. No one knows everything. Every developer on this site searches and learns. I know that if you put together all the time that I've spent on this site JUST researching and searching, it'd be MONTHS and MONTHS of non-stop, no sleep searching and researching. So why can't the average person search for 2 minutes? Is their time worth more than my time?
/rant - while talking on the phone so it might not make sense...
Pinesal said:
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
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There are thousands, but essentially all they do is copy stuff off here.
Like the post said, if you just want to root your phone so it can do 'cool stuff' and not give a **** about how the damn thing works then maybe you shouldn't be modding your phone (that wasn't aimed at you btw, just 'people' in general the market place is made up of 99% 'these people' who don't/can't read and it's pretty irritating.)
Agree with the post 100%, fantastic
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
Agreed. It's really, really, really, really getting to me. I wish OP's had semi-moderator power. They could at least delete all necessary posts and ban that user - if required- for a certain amount of time from their thread only.
jubeh said:
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
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ughh, no i'm not an admin, and no almost all my posts, or the majority, or a half are reported threads, but i do try to help out the mods when i can. they are not on all forums at all times and can use the help, and they have said as much.
Oh thank you thank you! People here should want to understand why thing the work as they work. Not just want their phones to look cool.
As it you wouldnt know it, i have been with xda for years well since the titan came out. before that i was modding an ipaq and of course the old palms. everyonce in awhile i lose interest and move on only to come back when i have something new(major a.d.d). i do write java as well as c and even c++(so on) i typically find this place useful to try stuff out and even set up my own custom rom just for me. i dont post because i can google. while i have many of my own questions i would like answered i simply dont ask most of the time(such as using micro kernels and modding app2sd to make the os have two options sd in or out. however the problem is not the generations or age difference or anything like that. its social systems outside of xda. posting a reply used to mean an answer or something useful. now its normal to simply post "great job". thats nice and all but maybe instead of complaining about it we should come up with a new system that improves xda. like a sorting system or sub thread system and set up catagorys for our replys. like thumbs up would be for the "good job". i know its hard to keep everyone happy but this is a forum first, a forum has design problems when you get the number of people xda has. use advanced search it helps a lot. a sorting system with requirements for certain catagorys would help devs. its not easy modding and getting it right and you cant do it alone. xda is the help even if its not your phone sometimes others have solutions too. such as winmo users putting android on their phones(yes i did it too my old titan for fun). things i learned and other devs learn can help us and vice versa. i have yet to find bad technology only poorly thought out ideas that could have been. which is why we mod.
p.s. wtf is up with palm and blackberry ads all the time.
Most of those kids just want the answer or fix in the next 3min. with perfect steps or a patch that supposedly will fix and hack their device,after that they´ll never show up.
All they want is to show off without bothering to read.
I totaly understand. I do feel sometimes that certain devs do get a bit annoyed with people who just want to fix the phone and not understand. I'm not linux or coding wiz. But whe I got here in may I was one of the people who just wanted me phone to be better than urs. I still have that to some extent but I have developed more of a "how and what is causeing this issue" attitude. I try to contribute as best as I can. Helping out over at q&a as best as I can. I enjoy xda and without my days would be more boring than what the are now. I dunno I guess I'm just rambling. Bottom line is I have tried to correct my attitude toward modding. Hell I even post my email so users can drop a line if they need help.
i am 20 and i fondly remember blowing into my nes super nes and genesis games.
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
saprano614 said:
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
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nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
jaaronmoody said:
nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
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Just want to make a statement befor someone did.
I thank you for this post. I came to this forum a long time ago I have learned quite a bit and appreciate everything that is done here. There are very skillful people that are on here and I wish I had the amount of skill then thesemodders, hackers, developers etc... have I keep my mouth shut unless i feel there is some thing that i know how to answer, i have never complained about a single rom i simply research what can be done to change for fix it, all answers rely in a search somewhere either here or google. I just wish other people would do the same then we would be able to prevent a 300+ page threads where only about 25 pages are worth anything.
look at the amount of posts from someone who knows they are barley able to contrubute(but do what he can) and been here this long. compared to people who have been here dont have much to contribute but love to post everything that comes to thier minds.
Join Date
22nd October 2006
Total Posts
89
samygent said:
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
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Click to collapse
HEY!
im 18 and clearly remember blowing into those damn games to make them work. but when they worked, so much fun i still think theyre better than the crappy xbox and ps3 games of today... but thats just me. lol
pleeease yall! let's keep THIS thread on topic! LOL!!
You've probably read the new Operation Iron Fist going on here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=1159
As of now, I will no longer stand for the way some things are going here. If I see ANY trolling, flaming, or disrespectful behaviour, you will receive an infraction on the spot. No more warnings.
Also, offtopic chatter on the development forums is exceptionally high here. This will stop, since I will also infract upon it.
Just one more thing: if you encounter ANY of above mentioned offences, let me know ASAP, instead of foulmouthing about it on the public forum. If I see that, you WILL get an infraction too.
I am sorry for acting this way, but you guys are forcing me to do this.
Sounds good to me, unless "iron fist" translates in reality to Naziism.
There's a difference in insulting people, and trying to contribute and being attacked. I tried to contribute by pointing out that there were several bugs that were fairly severe. If a user doesn't point them out, what's the point of ever releasing anything beyond 1.0 and then closing the thread?
However, there's a small group of users in the community who have resorted to fanaticism, and when someone goes that direction it shouldn't be tolerated. When I get criticized for bringing up a bug, and told I'm a "habitual complainer" how is that supposed to encourage anyone to want to participate in the DEVELOPMENT of anything for any phone? For some reason the Infuse 4G participants who I'm referring to seem really on edge, and speak out (often personally) about anyone who says anything aside from praise.
We're not here to be reassured that the world is 100% good, and that everything everyone says is amazing, we're here to participate in an active development community, be it as a developer, or as a contributing end user. The moment you criticize your user base is the moment you go from being an open community of developers and end users to a system of dictatorship, and closed platformism (yeah, it's a word now because I said so), lol.
To the people who squash anyone who's new, or doesn't know something, or volunteers that they're having a problem and need help, STOP. There's no need to make someone feel bad for asking a question a second time in a 3000+ post thread and then criticizing them for not reading the answer in post 2106 on page 291. There's no need to tell someone they are full of crap when they say they're having internet speed issues, and that since it works for you to your satisfaction that they're obviously less intelligent. There's no reason to tell someone they're wrong just because you disagree with them.
To make this a "community" everyone has to be understanding that everyone has their opinions, and that we're all here to make the phone in whatever thread a better phone.
Without developers, this site wouldn't exist. Without end users wanting mods, this site wouldn't exist. If you continue to alienate anyone who's new and turn this into a fanboy forum, it's just going to send them back to Apple iOS forums and devices. If that's how you want to help turn the mobile community, fine, but personally, I don't.
Bella
True to some extent. But the main problem is this:
NeoS2007 said:
Just one more thing: if you encounter ANY of above mentioned offences, let me know ASAP, instead of foulmouthing about it on the public forum. If I see that, you WILL get an infraction too.
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Most people here think they can say ANYTHING to ANYONE. That's not what this forum is about. It's aimed at development and not discussion. If you feel you should debate in any way, move to another forum.
And you can call my method anything you like, I used to warn everyone before acting, but that's over. You of all people should know that.
I'm not about to take any sides, but Bella, you're completely out of line. Being part of the community is different than creating your own community. This is a group working together towards a common goal. To reach that goal, we must provide detailed, factual and documented information to the dev(s) so that we can enable them to create the best possible releases. I've seen no images, logcat, etc. that was provided by you. Granted, there are several others in the forum not providing these details, but there are several who have provided very specific and detailed information. It took far too long for you to provide this kind of information and it only turned the conversation south. You are not alone, so know I am not singing you out; there were several others who contributed to a negative environment. The reason for my posting this is because you were the only one to come here and plead your case.
That said, this is a community filled with individuals. We all have different personalities and will act and react differently to different scenarios. Hopefully this can be the beginning of a constructive and collaborative effort by us all to truly bring our Infuse to the next level.
I will not retort nor reply, I am simply sharing my views and experiences in this forum so far. The Captivate started off rough, but never reached this level. It won't be easy resurrecting this one from the ashes, but it can be done.
Right, you say I was unable to provide any factual data, yet I responded each time with factual and accurate data that was requested by GTG. I think some people get frustrated because often issues that come up are issues they just don't know how to solve, and often that leads to accusations that the end user is crazy, unintelligent, or just uncooperative, when the case is the opposite.
Clearly in the end I identified a data connectivity issue first (review thread if you like) that's been significant enough for him now to pull the ROM until he can resolve the issue. Rather than fellow members responding with productive comments, they responded in an attacking manor. My point was valid (as vetted by GTG at this point), and for those who weren't having the issue, why pipe in and say there's no problem? Do you take your car to the mechanic and tell him everything is working fine?
Initially I was called a complainer for bringing it to the attention. Unfortunately as a developer you can't expect that an end user is always going to be able to provide the detail you need. If I had the experience and desire to build a ROM I'd do it myself. It's kinda like building a house then expecting to know where to find a pipe junction inside a wall that only you know where it is. There's only so much expectation you can have of the end users.
Additionally, this is not the Google Developers Forum. This is not a forum of official Android releases, this is a hobbyist community of people who want to tinker with their phone. If a developer wants to be in an environment of developing for Google, maybe they ought to apply for a position at google.com/jobs. The ROMs that come out of XDA are great, but we have to realize there is nothing official about anything that comes from these forums.
I think the comment should be changed from "development, not discussion" to development and on-topic discussion. Because if you discourage discussion, it's like discouraging shopping in a mall. Discussion is what makes a forum like this great.
I'll certainly commit to staying on topic in the future.
Have at it neo. Thanks
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997R using XDA App
Bella, you never provided the data requested. You just compared two modems - this was NOT what gtg asked for. He asked you to compare 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 performance. After looking through the thread, I'm fairly certain never provided this information, you just maintained that you had provided the requested data because of your modem comparison tests.
Perhaps you were under the mistaken impression that 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 was a modem firmware change - if you had opened the update zip to analyze the contents you would see that it was not. There's a reason gtg specifically asked you to compare 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 and not to compare UCKE3 vs UXKG3 modems, and the latter is what you did.
Also, the network connectivity issue was only one of the reasons gtg pulled the ROM. He was trying to be nice, but the poor attitude of many users in the thread was a MAJOR contribution to the ROM pull also. In addition to that, at least two developers have stated either in posts here or on IRC that they are extremely uneasy about releasing any ROM images on these forums because of the poor behavior on these threads. It is also why I currently have a "no support, don't PM me" policy for the kernel I released - it was the only solution to getting experienced users the build that many were asking for without subjecting myself to the painful experience gtg did.
PLEASE have at it! I haven't visited this forum in a few years (iPhone) and now that i'm back with an Infuse this place isn't anything like it use to be.
My 2cents.
Entropy512 said:
Bella, you never provided the data requested. You just compared two modems - this was NOT what gtg asked for. He asked you to compare 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 performance. After looking through the thread, I'm fairly certain never provided this information, you just maintained that you had provided the requested data because of your modem comparison tests.
Perhaps you were under the mistaken impression that 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 was a modem firmware change - if you had opened the update zip to analyze the contents you would see that it was not. There's a reason gtg specifically asked you to compare 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 and not to compare UCKE3 vs UXKG3 modems, and the latter is what you did.
Also, the network connectivity issue was only one of the reasons gtg pulled the ROM. He was trying to be nice, but the poor attitude of many users in the thread was a MAJOR contribution to the ROM pull also. In addition to that, at least two developers have stated either in posts here or on IRC that they are extremely uneasy about releasing any ROM images on these forums because of the poor behavior on these threads. It is also why I currently have a "no support, don't PM me" policy for the kernel I released - it was the only solution to getting experienced users the build that many were asking for without subjecting myself to the painful experience gtg did.
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Understood. I provided what he asked to the best of my ability at the time ... I'd reference my post but I'm not digging through a 3000 message thread, sorry. :-(
Matt-Helm said:
PLEASE have at it! I haven't visited this forum in a few years (iPhone) and now that i'm back with an Infuse this place isn't anything like it use to be.
My 2cents.
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The Inspire and Aria forums were much more friendly, it's not this site, it's just the Infuse forum in general. I had a very positive experience in the Inspire threads
I think it was not the fact that you raised an issue that bothered the developers, it was the manner in which it was raised.
Also, look at it from a developer's perspective - when the thread is filled with posts that clearly indicate that the poster didn't even read the first post of the thread in its entirety (not saying that you did this, but many others did), it gets massively frustrating.
I've never seen so many people completely fail to read/comprehend the first post of a thread as the Infused v2 thread. Even after it was put into the first post as a known issue, we still got reports of HDMI not working every 3-4 pages.
After what could be effectively described only as an all-weekend hack session two weekends ago, everyone's been a bit exhausted/burned out. But everyone keeps demanding MORE MORE MORE!
Entropy512 said:
Also, look at it from a developer's perspective - when the thread is filled with posts that clearly indicate that the poster didn't even read the first post of the thread in its entirety (not saying that you did this, but many others did), it gets massively frustrating.
I've never seen so many people completely fail to read/comprehend the first post of a thread as the Infused v2 thread. Even after it was put into the first post as a known issue, we still got reports of HDMI not working every 3-4 pages.
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I agree 100% ... the only thing I can say is that remember that many people come from iphone, aka the dev team blog, which is much different. On theirs you read from the bottom up. I don't think that's an excuse since XDA uses the globally accepted standard in forums. But yeah, last night there were about 25 people in an hour asking why the links didn't work, lol.
Not really sure if this is on topic or not.... I just looked up "Iron Fisting" and this was the first result http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iron fisting
Holy cow! The mods/admins mean business!
AdamOutler said:
Not really sure if this is on topic or not.... I just looked up "Iron Fisting" and this was the first result http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iron fisting
Holy cow! The mods/admins mean business!
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I know my mouth (and legs) will be shut going forward.
Bravo Neo. Bravoooooooooooooo.
Thank you!
Looking forward to seeing a cleaned up forum!
by the way? how do u become an admin?
i spend way to much time on here...even while im at work (because its my job relates highly to this)
AdamOutler said:
Not really sure if this is on topic or not.... I just looked up "Iron Fisting" and this was the first result http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iron fisting
Holy cow! The mods/admins mean business!
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(removed comment)
looking forward to clean and healthy forum.
I hope I'm not going to make any enemies by saying this, but I can't say I entirely agree with this being an iron fist. So far all that has been done is the Infused v2 ROM thread was locked. On any other forum I frequent they start with punishing the offenders individually, and only lock the thread as a last resort. I didn't see anybody get personally warned and I didn't see anybody get banned, and it really was only a handful that caused problems. I know there were a LOT of people that were posting the same questions over and over, but that can't be helped most of the time. The ones that were bickering and really ruining the thread are still posting happy as can be. I know it sounds like I'm questioning the mod(s) or being ungrateful, but I don't mean it that way. I just feel like we lost the ability to have an important and fun discussion before all the possible options were explored. Now if gtg asked for the thread to be locked then that is an entirely different matter, but I didn't get that impression from reading the last post.
I really do enjoy these forums and always have, and feel like this board is run very well. By this board, I mean the Infuse board. I just wanted to say that I don't know if I entirely agree with the way the infused thread was handled.
EDIT: I wanted to add that I know the mod(s) do this for free in their spare time, and I know that you can't police it 24/7. I really do appreciate your efforts at running this board, and the ONLY thing that I've seen that I take "issue" with is the handling of the Infused thread. Maybe there are things behind the scenes that I didn't see, and if that is the case then I apologize.
The Infused forum is only locked temporarily, as I asked the dev to contact me when his rom is finished.
Thanks for your support people. Just remember to report anything that's offensive/disrespectful/wrong/etc. and I'll take care of it.
NeoS2007 said:
The Infused forum is only locked temporarily, as I asked the dev to contact me when his rom is finished.
Thanks for your support people. Just remember to report anything that's offensive/disrespectful/wrong/etc. and I'll take care of it.
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I did see where it was locked only temporarily. I just wanted to get that off my chest, so to speak. It wasn't REALLY bugging me, but I did get pretty frustrated with how people were acting. It was pretty ridiculous. Like I said before, I really do appreciate your efforts to keep our forums running smoothly. Thank you for your continued presence and work, and for not taking my post personally, (at least I don't think you did ).
I've been a loyalist to the SL i9003 forum, From the day the threads went up to when we were grouped under the Galaxy S section as a sub base, Honestly despite moving onto greener pastures the SL i9003 has always been my first choice in the android department, hence why I still keep my SLi9003 and why I would spend as much as it takes to keep it alive than any other higher tier class phones.
First, this thread means no threat, but ofcourse, this is General section and anything goes, The moderators have been doing a splendid job, and if anything what surprises me the most is the activity----in a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section, but a few things have irked me.
I have stood around in the Hillbeast thread and side with Dhiru's and both are what's "Hot" or what's keeping thing's alive here, in a place where development has met it's scarcity. I agree the moderators have done their job properly in keeping things in line where patience runs short considering both developers (Or might I recognize just one- Hey it's the truth, monkey see, monkey do) depend on each other's work to keep the phone in it's tip top shape, but why has the moderation been so strict?
If anything this is the Legacy & Low Activity Devices and we have been shot down from once a standard recognized phone, to the abyss of low tier phones, I would agree there is alot of noob questions being asked, and alot of ruckus about the recent events, but aren't we, the community to decide and voice our opinions out? I would agree the noob questions/statements need to be rubbed off from the thread but I feel the manner of erasing certain posts and thread has gone a bit---overboard and I feel this thread would meet it's match soon. Again, I mean no disrespect to the fine moderators who have done their job properly. I just feel someone had to state this out.
And why? A small share, I was told recently I had been featured on XDA and I didn't even know it (GTab 10.1) so I decided to Google myself, upon doing so, I had seen my threads been offlinked, copy pasted from the GT-i9003 section into other forums, usually I'd ignore this but I noticed most of them are scared to ask or post because of the strict moderation that goes around that too on a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section. Most of them require the tutorial guide in order to move forward to dhiru's ROM because everyone knows if you screw up while flashing a firmware, you end up having a screwed phone not worth having a "blessing" on. I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
This has just been going on for a while, and I feel I needed to say this, perhaps most of the community would agree with me on this.
Good job once again to the moderators. With all due respect.
thats really true ....
well said brother !!!
Hope Mods doesn't delete this topic also !!!
nicely said ! if it wasnt u, i would have posted such ! because things do seem to get out of hand ! before you kno it most of the important posts are deleted without the concerned developers reading it!
shriomman said:
nicely said ! if it wasnt u, i would have posted such ! because things do seem to get out of hand ! before you kno it most of the important posts are deleted without the concerned developers reading it!
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I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
Misledz said:
I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
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Ya especially feedback by senior member for hillbeast & not stupid feedback by stupid noobs who have recently joined this forum (who dont know history of this fotum).
@ misledz
Well said brother
@OP .. or anyone else ... care to explain all this in a more of layman's term. Just for literarily inept people like me.
What exactly happened? What was posted and then removed?
Only then I might be able to participate in this debate.
Flame me for my opinions but not for my questions.
Hetalk said:
@OP .. or anyone else ... care to explain all this in a more of layman's term. Just for literarily inept people like me.
What exactly happened? What was posted and then removed?
Only then I might be able to participate in this debate.
Flame me for my opinions but not for my questions.
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More or less when we placed our expectations on HB we had hoped there would be more of a response than ignorance. Instead the posts got deleted, thread got cleaned and such.
@krazzy Wow I didn't think id' see you here too
^^ Now I see what exactly you're saying.
Even I felt that after months(weeks if you say so) of inactivity for a much awaited and critical development, asking for a ETA(disguised or not) shouldn't be considered a taboo/bane.
People (current senior members) knew(anticipated) this was critical to further development for this device, and decided to donate for a device to get a willing (note this word) and experienced developer to help in this project.
For new users , before posting anything, please understand that lack of development on this front is taking a toll on the very few developers we have for this device. I personally know a couple of devs, who could have helped in this development, if it really happened, who have moved on for greener pastures.
I repeat, these seniors who are (unnecessarily?) asking for ETAs aren't asking after a week from initial announcement/donation.
This is just my opinion, as I felt obliged to post it.
I agree with you:
Improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
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But it is also true that most of the time things are not done the way they should be. I'll use as an example Hillbeast's Kernel 3.x thread too:
Since the beginning, hillbeast stated users should use [Q/A] thread for inquiries and different stuff instead of the development thread, but people continued posting questions in that thread. At first, hillbeast answered almost every question; then, people started asking for ETA and such annoying things, and that's something we could not allow. Finally, moderators appeared and cleaned the whole thread, and now they keep it 'cleaned', also deleting questions not directly related with kernel 3.x development, which at first were more or less tolerated.
To sum up, the ones who worsened the situation were we, people who don't understand the current problems developers are facing, and that led to moderators deleting posts of people just asking questions because they are noobs or they want to know what's going on.
I know it because I've been in this forum for a year and a half (I am not a developer nor a contributor, so I try to keep quiet and just press thanks or give some feedback, that's why I only have a few posts), and i've been reading that thread regularly, at least once a day, since the first post.
I am not blaming anybody, I just think that the way moderators behave has its own reasons...
As we say in Spain, "Al final pagan justos por pecadores", that means something like: "In the end, pay righteous people because of sinners" (sorry for the translation, that's the only way I came up to express it.
Cheers!
@matapollos that's going as my status for the day ! And that has so much truth to it, I've been watching the HB thread ever since it started. Seen the people who took the initiative to help him but a developer is only as strong as the community that favors him, If anything HB should have kept his word, the community had kept theirs on the phone. It just feels---wrong? Yes you will help and answer but there's a saying in english, All bark and no bite. Actions should match what was preached.
As I just woke up and haven't had any coffee, I am not going to do anything with this yet until I have a chance to go through it properly.
OK, gotta run off to work, but here is something.
Misledz said:
I've been a loyalist to the SL i9003 forum, From the day the threads went up to when we were grouped under the Galaxy S section as a sub base, Honestly despite moving onto greener pastures the SL i9003 has always been my first choice in the android department, hence why I still keep my SLi9003 and why I would spend as much as it takes to keep it alive than any other higher tier class phones.
First, this thread means no threat, but ofcourse, this is General section and anything goes, The moderators have been doing a splendid job, and if anything what surprises me the most is the activity----in a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section,
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Click to collapse
Thanks.
Misledz said:
but a few things have irked me.
I have stood around in the Hillbeast thread and side with Dhiru's and both are what's "Hot" or what's keeping thing's alive here, in a place where development has met it's scarcity. I agree the moderators have done their job properly in keeping things in line where patience runs short considering both developers (Or might I recognize just one- Hey it's the truth, monkey see, monkey do) depend on each other's work to keep the phone in it's tip top shape, but why has the moderation been so strict?
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Click to collapse
I assure you that I am taking actions based on reports. I do not own a Galaxy SL so I am not here other than for mod purposes.
Misledz said:
If anything this is the Legacy & Low Activity Devices and we have been shot down from once a standard recognized phone, to the abyss of low tier phones, I would agree there is alot of noob questions being asked, and alot of ruckus about the recent events, but aren't we, the community to decide and voice our opinions out? I would agree the noob questions/statements need to be rubbed off from the thread but I feel the manner of erasing certain posts and thread has gone a bit---overboard and I feel this thread would meet it's match soon. Again, I mean no disrespect to the fine moderators who have done their job properly. I just feel someone had to state this out.
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I am taking actions based on reports entered by the community members here. Since I do not own a Galaxy SL I am not a member of any of the factions here.
Misledz said:
And why? A small share, I was told recently I had been featured on XDA and I didn't even know it (GTab 10.1) so I decided to Google myself, upon doing so, I had seen my threads been offlinked, copy pasted from the GT-i9003 section into other forums, usually I'd ignore this but I noticed most of them are scared to ask or post because of the strict moderation that goes around that too on a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section. Most of them require the tutorial guide in order to move forward to dhiru's ROM because everyone knows if you screw up while flashing a firmware, you end up having a screwed phone not worth having a "blessing" on. I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
This has just been going on for a while, and I feel I needed to say this, perhaps most of the community would agree with me on this.
Good job once again to the moderators. With all due respect.
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People scared to ask questions? Really? That would be news based on the number of questions that keep getting asked.
Can you give specific examples of your threads which have been copied to other device forums please?
As far as thread cleaning/deleting posts, I can promise that I have not deleted one single bit of "crucial" information.
I have to go for now, but I will continue this later. I want to work with you guys, but I also am required to do certain things for reasons you are not aware of. I am happy to explain them wherever possible.
Thank you,
mf2112
Misledz said:
@matapollos that's going as my status for the day ! And that has so much truth to it, I've been watching the HB thread ever since it started. Seen the people who took the initiative to help him but a developer is only as strong as the community that favors him, If anything HB should have kept his word, the community had kept theirs on the phone. It just feels---wrong? Yes you will help and answer but there's a saying in english, All bark and no bite. Actions should match what was preached.
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Well said Misledz.
My own recognize developer list have only one name still, trying to get it more, however, they still yet to be right.
i have once donate a SL to a XDA member(or Developer?), and now he's still not yet recognized by public (or XDA?) what is going on here at SL forum?
for the MOD, I think they are fair enough, rules is rules, it mean to be follow, but...still...... anyone missing Jay here ?:victory:
Another trend I've noticed, is the rise of the "unofficial" moderators.
People "spamming" on almost every post.
Best example would be a newbie on XDA asking for something like an ETA, and the damn post has 20+ replies saying Donot Ask for ETAs.
This was just an example.
I see that there are more of such posts, than that of regular queries.
This makes checking threads sometimes very much irritating. Opening a thread only to find out just another reply moderating previous posts.
Misledz said:
More or less when we placed our expectations on HB we had hoped there would be more of a response than ignorance. Instead the posts got deleted, thread got cleaned and such.
@krazzy Wow I didn't think id' see you here too
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brother i have always visit i9003 section when i visit xda
moderation shd be strict. so as to keep only usefull n informative posts. else we all will be lost in huge amt of posts.
SaeberTooth4U said:
moderation shd be strict. so as to keep only usefull n informative posts. else we all will be lost in huge amt of posts.
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I have to agree with you.
This forum is for developers. Testers and noobs are here as visitors and if they are looking around for information, they should search very hard before distracting the major contributors. Testing helps the devs, but harassment doesn't. Testing doesn't mean complaining about battery life. That is what spoiled children do. Thinking about yourself. People who have questions will always find the answer to their questions by searching. If there is no answer anywhere to be found (extremely rare), start a new thread in the General Section. It's simple.
I'm neither a developer nor a programmer. But I know my place and just say what's necessary and search very very hard before asking a question. At least I try. I think about the developers that use this forum to work on phones and don't appreciate it when someone who obviously has no interest in development comes and makes demands as though a ROM or a MOD or any feature or bug is the responsibility of these devs.
I find it crazy when I see non-devs here with hundreds of posts.
It would make much more sense for everyone to keep quiet and read. No need to comment on every thread you go through. ESPECIALLY if you're not developing or solving a problem.
samisax said:
I have to agree with you.
This forum is for developers. Testers and noobs are here as visitors and if they are looking around for information.
I'm neither a developer nor a programmer. But I know my place and just say what's necessary and search very very hard before asking a question. At least I try. I think about the developers that use this forum to work on phones and don't appreciate it when someone who obviously has no interest in development comes and makes demands as though a ROM or a MOD or any feature or bug is the responsibility of these devs.
I find it crazy when I see non-devs here with hundreds of posts.
It would make much more sense for everyone to keep quiet and read. No need to comment on every thread you go through. ESPECIALLY if you're not developing or solving a problem.
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samisax, you have my sympathy! You have written exactly what I was thinking. It annoys me when I see people demanding things to developers, as if they were their employers...
At least in this thread I've realised there's still people with good manners that knows when they may ask for something from others or not.
I'm really really relieved. Thank you guys
problem
OK, home from work now. First, I am not ever going to infract or punish someone for expressing their honest opinion, as long as it is done in a civil fashion, so I definitely appreciate a good discussion.
To respond to this thread in a general fashion...I see vague complaints over a great many forums about mods doing this or that, or not doing this or that, but rarely any specific instances. We do have a thread in this forum: Moderators to assist should anyone want to bring up specific instances of problems. That means links so we can go there and fix the problems. Please feel free to use that thread. Please feel free to (continue to) use the report button as several dozen of you already have. I have several pages full of reports from this forum. Please feel free to PM me. Some of you have done this, I have received PMs from a number of members with requested actions of me. People have posted requests in the thread above as well. In fact that is really where this thread should have gone, but you don't really have specific examples, so ok.
So people here are reporting things which I am taking actions per the guidelines I have been issued by the Moderator Committee. "Strict" is all relative. I thought I had been strict but fair so far. According to other mods, including jayharper08, I have been too lenient. I am not sure how much "modding" the Galaxy users here want but I can state that the answer is not leaning towards "lenient" based on the number and types of reports I am getting. If people here didn't care, they wouldn't bother to report thread after thread, post after post.
Without any specific examples I can't really give you specific answers as to why I took whatever action I did, but I can tell you that my motivations for working many many MANY hours on XDA that have led to being a moderator were definitely not to close or move threads or posts from other users in other forums I had no real time or interest for given that I never owned or ever will own any of them, or to have to explain repeatedly that it is NOT OK to distribute paid applications here on XDA as this is a community of developers, some of which do make their living from writing software, and that piracy is stealing in exactly the same fashion as if it had been lifted off the store shelf and walked out with it, or to reluctantly hand out infractions to users after PMs and warnings proved not to be sufficient. We don't like to do this. Not one mod I have talked to enjoys having to discipline members, but the alternative is far worse. We are not going to let XDA go downhill like many other sites have done. There are community rules and the rules will be followed, for the benefit of all in the community.
Now, to answer this thread with a very specific example which in all honesty seems to the the *real* issue underlying most other issues in this forum.
Hillbeast.
First, can someone point me to a thread or something written down which says exactly what hillbeast was supposed to do and when? I don't want to prejudge the situation, but all I know so far is that several phones were purchased with pooled monies, one of which went to hillbeast, one went to dhiru (I think, not sure on this one), and one went to another (unrecognized?) dev that I can''t recall the name of who seems to have skipped. If there is something written down that gives me very clear guidelines on what was given and what was expected it would be very helpful here, instead of vague complaints and ETA demands, which frankly I did erase without a second thought.
I see several posts here in this thread concerned that I might have erased something important. I promise to every one of you that I deleted nothing that would remotely qualify as "important" or more to the point "relevant" to a dev thread. If there was anything even slightly technical or related in those posts, I would keep it and erase only the unrelated parts. I deleted the initial offending posts which were reported, then I removed the followup piling on posts, some of which went overboard and were also reported. When arguments start, both sides posts are going to be deleted. No one is more right from all evidence I have seen so far. Since I do not own this device and am not in any of the factions here, I am not taking any sides, but I will defend any members from unwarranted attacks or unsubstantiated claims.
I am not sure how many people here have even the faintest understanding of how real development works. Too many people I think have a completely wrong understanding based on ROMs they are seeing from "devs" that are nothing more than zip jockeys. Frankly, I doubt there is one person in 10,000 here on XDA that can really understand what hillbeast is trying to do. Without benefit of assistance from the manufacturer.
In fact, the manufacturer doesn't even want people doing this at all since it might cause them not buy the newest model phone.
So what I need here is the contract that was agreed to by hillbeast and the other devs and the members here. I can't go by anything vague or that isn't stipulated by 100% of the involved parties. I wasn't here when this deal was set up, but I promise to carefully evaluate everything and I will act fairly.
Thank you,
mf2112
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying I am going to take an action here. My gut feeling as someone who has worked around software development for more than 10 years is that many of you guys are simply being too impatient. Especially given that hillbeast (despite the irony of his username ) is not an employee of anyone here to the best of my knowledge.
As far as how people want me to mod...well, I am not jayharper08 so I am not going to do things like he did. I can tell you that I don't want to run the forum. I don't want to go through all the threads and posts and find "modly" things to do in my not-so-spare time. When people report things then I come check it out and figure out what to do. Since people here report a lot, I am here more often, which is fine with me but some people may not appreciate. BTW, your thread was not reported, I found it on my own. :victory:
The above being said, I am human and I can make mistakes. If anyone has an issue then talk to me. If I did something wrong I will correct it. If you disagree with something I have done then let me know why (civilly) and I will explain to the best of my ability. You have no reason to fear talking to me in public or private. I became a mod to help people here, not harm them.
Mf2112,
Firstly I would like to thank you for taking the time to sit and read through this and place your points on the table along with your opinions. In a way the thread wasn't that hard to find (Considering the Triangle and the word "Moderator" brings people to see what's being said, pretty nifty tactic I learned over at the GNexus side LOL) as much as I would like to press thanks, the ever so wonderful system has permitted me from my daily 8 limit. And I would do so because this was more or less the response I least expected, in the sense, it's a good response, infact an unbiased one but touches all areas, like a pedophile checking his new victim.
Before I start this, I have no ill intention towards HB, but the whole ETA in the HB thread turned sour only because the agreement between developer (I would hold my word on the developer part) and community was made in exchange. Yes his help was sought out because we had believed that XDA is a place where people share their expertise. Do what is agreed upon (with a fair deal ofcourse) and we don't place any high expectations or hopes in such. But when it's been half a year, that's when things start to roll considering with each passing month, another flagship Class A/B phone get's launched, which is the initial reason why the ETA's went up in flames (But ofcourse this only applies to who ACTUALLY can do something with it). I would have agreed if HB had stated what he lacked, and why he was unable to provide so, he had done initially in the beginning, but when it was more of "Speak first, we listen, then show us what you have done" he turned all silent, which turned tides.
There were 4 phones donated, DoomLord, Fuss132, dhiru, codeworkx. Each of them presented something within a short time of the device they were given, I mean such is the expectation isn't it? I know pooling isn't a big deal considering its $5-$10 each person, but if the community was aware that there were going to be no results that would emerge then they would have donated to XDA instead and gotten a pretty gold star beside their name. I don't know if I'm being too emotional over $5-$10's, but when you climb up that harsh economy ladder from a third world country like most of us do, you suddenly get that feel of how important/valuable $1 is. (Consider the fact that some would find people crazy to spend over RS/PHP 20k over a phone where that would pay up for 1 semester of a College student)
I completely agree however of the mindless babble of those who submit no contribution but have high # of posts. It's insane. But with XDA having 5+ million online user's daily, It's hard to determine who helps and who doesn't. Which is why I've mentioned you have done a splendid job in clean sweeping the arena. Keep up the great work and sorry if this has gone a bit indepth.
Sorry guys.... As another dev shuts up shop due to users/noobs that don't read opening posts or explain the bugs they having.
Custom roms will soon be a thing of the pass.
I for one knows how much time/effort goes into making a rom. It's no easy task. The amount of flashing/bricking to bring roms to us.
All the roms on xda are free but if this continues then devs may start charging for their roms (maybe not on xda but who knows) Wouldn't blame them really though.
All users need to understand if we don't have devs on Android. Then basically we will end up like iPhone users that are locked down. We should be grateful for all devs that brings us root without it then no custom roms would exist.
Do the Android community wanna end up like iPhone? I doubt it very much.
Respect the devs
Read the first post, search the thread! All answers are there. This excuse "I searched but couldn't find anything" is BS basically.
We will lose them all eventually.
Rant over.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
Post of the month!
ETA:
As much as I agree, this is flogging a dead horse
Until you can change the impatient 'fix it now, I refuse to read the first post post anyway, that bits not important' mentality of the average user, nothing will change
I agree. most users in this community are selfish. most likely they demand fix this please, when's the next update, port it please, comparing their work to another's hard work, flaming and so on.
they neither try to read back the thread or use the search function. or has no clue with the forum rules. it's a sad thing but yeah it's here. it's really a sad thing but there's nothing we can do unless they learn to respect the free work devs have put into their work. people should realize devs are doing it on their spare time on their own will to share to people for users to enjoy for free.
Agree
I was hoping to find a thread like this and I totally agree with you.
But maybe that is not the end cause I think that the devs will still love what they do just that they try not to address certain people.
As great as the idea of XDA is and as much as I'm happy that this awesome forum exists..I think that it should be talked/discussed about the forum rules!!!
Example:
How can it be possible that you become senior member with 100 posts?
This leads to flaming in some cases and is no way near related on how helpful you are
The process in being allowed to post
While some are annoyed that they can't discuss right after logging the first time....for others it is way to simple to join and flame.
Rules enforcement
We all know that some posts we make are not related to the devices...and I think that this shouldn't be seen as an issue in general...XDA to me is also a communication page as long as the dev doesn't have a problem with it... BUT being disrespectful to the work you receive for free and claiming bugs where there are reported to be none and most important refusing to read should be looked after more often.
At last I really don't want to criticize XDA or what it stands for cause I still love it... I just hope it stays what it was created for and won't loose the devs which are doing so many awesome things for us because some people just can't follow the rules and be thankful for what they get
Maybe some new rules when people sign up?like private reference or something?but then again that would drop Ads revenue of this site drasticly
Unfortunately it's fact that most of the users are never happy enough with the things they get FOR FREE. They don't see the hard work of the devs behind a custom ROM. They only see what they have on their phones, and if there's something they don't like, they complain and blame the dev. And the fact that many users don't read instructions or simple informations gives the devs more work. They have to watch their thread 24 hours a day and always be friendly and helpful. If that's not given, some users become rude. My favorite thread was closed this morning because of such stupidity. The dev pulls his heart and soul in his project and gets more negative than positive feedback. That's not fair.
@4aces: you know what thread I'm talking about, i think you agree, it's a sad sad day for us.
Exactly @speedwayfan75 that why I had to voice my rant over that thread. And @DSA same for your thread too shut due to some users. Black box was great used on s3 then got discontinued on s4
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
So you are announcing the end of the custom ROMs, because of some impatient noobs, who have always been around and probably always will be? Are you for real?
centavar said:
So you are announcing the end of the custom ROMs, because of some impatient noobs, who have always been around and probably always will be? Are you for real?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did I day that :banghead:
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
In my opinion it's also the fault of XDA in general.
Just take a look in the Q&A section. So many question that have been anwsered before, so many people that just won't read.
In my opinion every thread that doesn't have a decent opening post should be closed untill they put some effort in it. But the more users XDA gets, the more money they make. So the skill level will only keep lowering and then some other decent website opens and replaces XDA.
Users just get to much space to do anything they want. I'm not blaming the mods in any way, because I think they are doing a good job. People higher up the ladder should take action or XDA will go down true their own succes.
I agree that there are many noob who do not read the post before replying.
But every boby was a noob before no?
just give them a chance to become good Android users...
PS: sorry for my english, i'am french !
You can't stop anyone from posting questions without searching first, or asking for OTAs. The only thing the devs can do is to ignore these people.
worktorest said:
You can't stop anyone from posting questions without searching first, or asking for OTAs. The only thing the devs can do is to ignore these people.
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Its not as simple as that
If I create a development thread and include all relevant info in the first post, which is then populated with nothing but questions that are answered in the first post it makes it incredibly hard to find any proper posts which could contribute to the rom or for me to help a genuine user having issues
I created a specific q&a thread for these types of posts and everyone ignored it and filled up my dev thread instead
XDA has a chronic problem with users atm, I can't explain it or understand it, but I'm seeing more and more devs close their threads because of the users populating it
Have a read of the gravitybox thread in the xposed section...its unbelievable..
ETA: just had a read of the echorom thread...check @friedrich420 last posts in there..I feel for him as I know exactly how he feels
Users should be understanding about this. I think XDA should double the number of moderators so that useless posts are deleted on regular basis. For developers; they should create a third post on their ROM topic, that has a big list of all FAQs in bold.
worktorest said:
You can't stop anyone from posting questions without searching first, or asking for OTAs. The only thing the devs can do is to ignore these people.
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I agree. I'm not sure if Devs will start charging, to be honest I'd probably pay, But anyways.... I work in Service Management for a Global IT company, and this behaviour is pretty standard when you are dealing with this many users..
I for one respond ONCE and the ignore users that make demands or unreasonable requests or are just plain offensive or rude.
What makes it worse though is the number of more experienced users that actually reply to these people in the thread. Honestly is some threads they have doubled the useless post count! Now, before I get flamed, I have done it myself because its just plain RUDE!!! But it doesn't take every 'good' user to flame back or stick up for the dev or say not to ask for ETAs! Just once will do and then ignore them!
If you ask any service professional or SixSigma bod, they will say 'focus on the good users and ignore the bad'.
Please please though reading multiple posts from good users responding to bad users is just as annoying as having to read the original bad post.
Peace Out People!
DSA said:
Its not as simple as that
If I create a development thread and include all relevant info in the first post, which is then populated with nothing but questions that are answered in the first post it makes it incredibly hard to find any proper posts which could contribute to the rom or for me to help a genuine user having issues
I created a specific q&a thread for these types of posts and everyone ignored it and filled up my dev thread instead
XDA has a chronic problem with users atm, I can't explain it or understand it, but I'm seeing more and more devs close their threads because of the users populating it
Have a read of the gravitybox thread in the xposed section...its unbelievable..
ETA: just had a read of the echorom thread...check @friedrich420 last posts in there..I feel for him as I know exactly how he feels
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I thank you from the bottom of my heart!! I know if anyone can understand is you my man!! I create a basic custom rom at best (and kernels lately). You create the most awesome rom i have ever used!! Way way over my head!! And you get the same treatment?? Its really not worth it!! People (im not generalizing because there are some EXCEPTIONAL USERS who deserve recognition) dont get (or dont want to get) what it takes to create a masterpiece like yours for example...
Thank you and my wish is that we will see you back!!
But one thing is for sure, something has to change...
It seems that people value something only if they have to pay for it... Im not say this should happen here but something that protects us (the creators/ providers of roms. kernels, recoveries, mods, apps etc etc) for the **** we get should be put in place... Some kind of mechanism that protects spamming and protects flaming... Something with more success than the current measures we have in place now...
Also THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR SUPPORT and opening this thread is a good thing!!
It needs to stay up and we need to make it into a "brainstorming pool" of ways to make sure devs who do this for free (therefore they do it because they love sharing) are protected...
How to stop stupid questions?
Firstly if devs want to be paid then good for them. Whatever they get it wont be enough. This might leave some users feeling empowered though - they would feel they were owed answers as they had paid "where is my promised bug fix you lazy asshole!". And we don't want that. So how about a testers thread for each ROM were the dev controls who can post and a general thread for each ROM were you have to pay to post ($0.20). It would encourage only real questions after peole have searched.
finbaar said:
How to stop stupid questions?
Firstly if devs want to be paid then good for them. Whatever they get it wont be enough. This might leave some users feeling empowered though - they would feel they were owed answers as they had paid "where is my promised bug fix you lazy asshole!". And we don't want that. So how about a testers thread for each ROM were the dev controls who can post and a general thread for each ROM were you have to pay to post ($0.20). It would encourage only real questions after peole have searched.
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You are so so right about that!!
Thats why i would never want to sell anything here..
Can you imagine what they would do to me???
I mean i get abuse from offering free stuff for so many devices... can you imagine making money for it? People would think im their slave...
goodgood hahahahhahah
stevendeb25 said:
Sorry guys.... As another dev shuts up shop due to users/noobs that don't read opening posts or explain the bugs they having.
Custom roms will soon be a thing of the pass.
I for one knows how much time/effort goes into making a rom. It's no easy task. The amount of flashing/bricking to bring roms to us.
All the roms on xda are free but if this continues then devs may start charging for their roms (maybe not on xda but who knows) Wouldn't blame them really though.
All users need to understand if we don't have devs on Android. Then basically we will end up like iPhone users that are locked down. We should be grateful for all devs that brings us root without it then no custom roms would exist.
Do the Android community wanna end up like iPhone? I doubt it very much.
Respect the devs
Read the first post, search the thread! All answers are there. This excuse "I searched but couldn't find anything" is BS basically.
We will lose them all eventually.
Rant over.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
goodgood verygood
friedrich420 said:
You are so so right about that!!
Thats why i would never want to sell anything here..
Can you imagine what they would do to me???
I mean i get abuse from offering free stuff for so many devices... can you imagine making money for it? People would think im their slave...
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Gasp! I donated $1!!!!! You mean I don't own you????
HELLO! Long time member here
Now its time for me to have a bit of a rant! Over the last few years, this site/forums, have gone downhill, the reason being....? Ignoring The rules and not doing things for yourselves!
I am not a mod, or admin, but I expect I speak on behalf of a large number of users/rom devs, when you see the same posts explaining the same thing again and again!
Such Enjoyable posts such as 'can I use xposed on this'. 'whats the battery like on this thing - even though the rom has just been released!!! whens the new update coming, and why not for my model?????
You see, I could never ever share a rom on here (I have made loads for myself, including a few for note 3), because of a small number of users WHO CANT POST in the right section, READ Q&A forum, or MOAN because they have bricked their handset because they have not read things properly!
XDA is a amazing site, and I have killed and revived hundreds of handsets, but people think its their god given right to expect the dev etc to hold their hands and go through every step of the flashing of roms, its a case of trial and error, the roms here are not always 100% stable, but people expect it to be! people expect the latest firmware, bits and bobs to be added all the time, the devs have real lifes, families, and jobs......they are doing you a favour....free!!
What I am saying is, please respect the devs, the forum mods, and post in correct sections!!! use search.....or a little site called google.......any of you can inbox me with any problems you have
Anyway I LOVE YOU ALL
Couldn't have said it better. I know several developers who have mostly migrated to other forums due, in large part, to the things you mentioned.
I too have put together a number of ROMs, full themes, and apps, the majority of which I've either kept for personal use, or shared only with select individuals, because it's almost become a burden to publicly release them here. Alliance has an unofficial rule where any time someone asks about an update, we postpone releasing one, but even that doesn't stop the incessant stream of repeated questions that we get (the majority of which are already answered in the OP).
A lot of the members here don't seem to understand that this is, first and foremost, a developers site, and they act as if they're entitled to something or that the devs somehow owe them something. I've never understood that mindset; Whenever I've wanted to modify something, in any way, I've put in the time (sometimes years) needed to learn how to do it myself, and if I ever got stuck, have sought guidance from more knowledgable people. That doesn't seem to happen much any more.
XDA has gone through some major changes, and has grown almost exponentially in the 9 years that I've been here, and I couldn't be happier for its' success, but some things have certainly, and unfortunately, been lost along the way.
There is also the issue of people who steal others work. The number of devs I have seen leave xda because of that is quite high. It is not ok and it is against the rules for people to do it but they still do. Once the devs who put the time in to create the mods leave nothing new happens because no one knows how to do anything without copy and paste or even have their own original ideas.
Same old same old since XDA moved from a developers forum to a forum for those that don't know and refuse to read/ learn .
I gave up years ago and try to ignore the idiot posts .
@JJEgan: You really gave up, years ago, with that post count?
Anyway, the problem is newcomers. They don't search, they don't read, but their demands are high all the same, that's the most saddening part I think.
All the ROM/ Kernel topics should have a separate Q&A section. But at the same time I think its needed to be mentioned that OP (Original Post) should contain all the needed informations too, sometimes they don't!
Yes is the answer to first question .
Only time i use the forums is nowadays for a new rom .
I've been visiting xda, as a lurker, for years (since about '07-'08) and only created an account a couple of years ago. (Hence the low/non-existant post count.) I may not have ever released any of my own fiddlings for my phone(s), but I have borrowed some of the knowledge from the fine developers and learned more about my phone(s). It also annoys the hell outta me to see so many people refusing to learn about the equipment they use everyday and expect to have people, busting their asses (on their own time & dime), just bow down and cater to the weak-minded and lazy masses. It's sad... If someone's too lazy to do the homework before they go flash happy, then I feel they deserve the bricks. I have nothing but mad respect for the devs who put their work out there, regardless of quality! To play off of what Morningstar said, I think it's great that there's a bit of a slap on the hand, from the devs, of the disrespectful, over-eager ones who get too grabby-- command respect wherever you can! HAHAHA!
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
@DSA thats a great name from the past! I used to love your Blackbox roms from a couple years back, remember it used to amazing, and can remember too, that you closed your thread due to the same sort of thing.....people posting non development stuff.......I managed to sell a old s4 about 8 months back that had your rom on it (the bloke preferred a 4.4.2 rom)
DEV section should be for DEVs ONLY. There should be a category in which you have to be invited to be able to post there. Rest must go to Q/A section IMO. I am mod myself, not of a such big forum like XDA, but from ReactOS forums. Even there you have stupid children starting a rant with their first post or more often just post a stupid question answered two posts above! Same like here, just not that many ppl flooding you ^^ I started to give away free warnings and bans to minimize the negative impact we have there after any public booth we had somewhere etc. Telling ppl not to do X and Y and what are they doing? X AND Y OF COURSE! You write it in the first post in RED AND CAPS LOCK and ppl still don't read it. Then they show up to rant that their PC is dead, hamster is pregnant, phone fell into the fish tank and whatever else you might be the evil guy for. I completely second AND support that opinion of the OP.
In my opinion only Devs, Mods and Senior Members (maybe with some criteria, ex. by registration date and/or by number thanks) should be able to post on the Development section.
I would assume that most Senior Members with several years of registration, and with at least 50 thanks would know the forum rules.
Closing the Dev section only to Devs would bring very little input and feedback.
pacc said:
In my opinion only Devs, Mods and Senior Members (maybe with some criteria, ex. by registration date and/or by number thanks) should be able to post on the Development section.
I would assume that most Senior Members with several years of registration, and with at least 50 thanks would know the forum rules.
Closing the Dev section only to Devs would bring very little input and feedback.
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Thats what the Q/A is for.
emuandco said:
Thats what the Q/A is for.
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You're right, but many senior members know programming and their contribution to development would be lost in the extensive list of Q/A.
Hopefully XDA will figure something out.
I am of the opposite opinion.
Ten years ago you asked a question you got a reply. Simple and practical.
Now you have to put up with a stream of people moaning and lamenting the nerve of someone daring to ask a question that has been asked before, usually because the op has not been updated or has such useful instructions as:
Installation instructions:
1. Install
So now instead of having a simple question and answer we just have the questions and the moaners; people who conveniently forget that they had their own questions earlier and act instead as guardians of some sacred knowledge which you must trawl through a several thousand page long thread (or three or four separate threads) before being worthy to dare ask a question.
My two cents.
1. That's what the search function is for. There's a rule, search first, ask questions later. I mean if not found.
2. There's also the attitude problem with people being entitled to anything, as if they are doing a favor for using the roms. No doubt, bugs can only be found if enough people are using it, and they are beta testing it this way for the developers, but still the work here is done by the developers.
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
4. OP should grant moderator rights for his/her topic, and purge irrelevant stuff.
My 2c.
istperson said:
1. That's what the search function is for. There's a rule, search first, ask questions later. I mean if not found.
2. There's also the attitude problem with people being entitled to anything, as if they are doing a favor for using the roms. No doubt, bugs can only be found if enough people are using it, and they are beta testing it this way for the developers, but still the work here is done by the developers.
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
4. OP should grant moderator rights for his/her topic, and purge irrelevant stuff.
My 2c.
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I wholeheartedly agree with your numbers 1,2, and 4. I take exception with number 3 though. The donation is a thank you for what the person has done. Like tipping a waiter at a restaurant ... better job done .. better tip. But that is done at the end. Appreciation for a job well done. Maybe next trip you get really good service ... maybe you get someone else. My point is that making the donation doesn't give anyone the right to "expect" more. Most donations are minimal .. very nice to receive ... but normally small. So if you send someone $5 and expect more, you are putting a very small value on their time.
The majority of crap that clogs the threads is people not searching as stated previously. It's obvious that some people are just too lazy or have come to expect to be hand fed the information. They even state in the post thing like "too many post to look at" and "just don't have the time to look" ( for themselves). If I search and find the answer for them, I usually put in my post a link to the post with the answer as well as the amount of time I spent searching (usually less than a minute). This normally brings out the hatred in people, but I really don't care.
This thread has surprised me in that it hasn't turned into a battleground yet. Nice that opinions can flow and discussions can happen without the need for a mod to calm the situation. We all know it won't change anything on xda .. it is what it is. It has changed a lot since I started a few years ago. I just tend to stay in threads that are suited to my nature and with people with sense of humor like mine. The others that I follow that are not like that, I tend to remain silent(ish).
Some things like total disrespect for someones work really set me off. I have seen people tell other themers that their work is ugly or tell them how it should look. I look at their profile and they have produced nothing here. Multiple threads started about help me this and that, and request for things to be done. It just chaps my ass. But it is what it is. Anyway ... Rant over ... thanks OP for the thread.
Bubba said:
I wholeheartedly agree with your numbers 1,2, and 4. I take exception with number 3 though. The donation is a thank you for what the person has done. Like tipping a waiter at a restaurant ... better job done .. better tip. But that is done at the end. Appreciation for a job well done. Maybe next trip you get really good service ... maybe you get someone else. My point is that making the donation doesn't give anyone the right to "expect" more. Most donations are minimal .. very nice to receive ... but normally small. So if you send someone $5 and expect more, you are putting a very small value on their time.
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No you're right, I agree, it's not the value of the work just saying it's appreciated.
What I was trying to say was that if being correct only those will accept donations who are really determined to have a relatively complete rom made, and by complete I mean compared to what is announced in the OP. And if people appreciate it then at least every well documented bug report would be nice if it was acknowledged. Just to show that this is really a contribution to the development if someone gives links to logcats, and gives steps to reproduction. And by no means what is very frequent here: "This sucks, fix it!!!!!!!111111One"
istperson said:
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
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Your last post cleared things up a bit, and I think I get your point, but I still completely disagree with this statement.
Every developer I know here (including myself), has a 'real' job, and does development work solely as a hobby in their spare time. A donation is just that. it's not solicited or expected, it's simply a way of showing appreciation and thanking a dev for the work that they've done.
Personally, the things that I've shared here publicly and/or are included in others' releases are the product of several hundred hours (and probably more than that) of work. I've received a few donations, but the total sum doesn't even amount to one full day's pay at my 'real' job, so I would say everything I do is on 'my time' and 'my dime'.
Morningstar said:
Your last post cleared things up a bit, and I think I get your point, but I still completely disagree with this statement.
Every developer I know here (including myself), has a 'real' job, and does development work solely as a hobby in their spare time. A donation is just that. it's not solicited or expected, it's simply a way of showing appreciation and thanking a dev for the work that they've done.
Personally, the things that I've shared here publicly and/or are included in others' releases are the product of several hundred hours (and probably more than that) of work. I've received a few donations, but the total sum doesn't even amount to one full day's pay at my 'real' job, so I would say everything I do is on 'my time' and 'my dime'.
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100 percent agreed. I have spent thousands of hours on my personal theme for alliance that i freely share. Same for apps that I also share. I have received only a couple of donations. Not that I care. But they are nice. I appreciate the thanks clicked just as much.
But again the point is ... It's a thank you ... not a purchase with a promise. Knowing the people that @Morningstar and myself know through this hobby is (to me) humbling. The average user could never begin to comprehend the time and effort ... and dedication ... maybe even some OCDC ... that goes into building or theming a rom or app.
It IS hard work and I am always grateful to the amazing helpful members who make coming here enjoyable and who vastly outnumber the vocal whiny minority of spoiled douches.
My 2c ?
Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
Welcome to the new world,Facebook and the deliberate dumbing down of the masses.. Its no accident that the general public aren't as bright as they were,ask any teacher how new age teaching just isn't as good as the old ways.
I can see and share your frustrations but there a lot of factors
young people have more disposable income I see 12yr olds with S6s and other high end phones
young people have been spoilt and are treated like little prince/princesses because the parents are so busy earning a living they can't give them time so spoil them or try to buy their love creating needy lazy demanding kids
the general assumption is that young people are internet savvy but this is far from the truth, I see classes of kids every day in the high school years who still don't realise that you can type an address into a web browser they do a search for the same site every day and then click the link. If google was shut down the world would end for a lot of people
samsung have released so many different models and variants which wasn't the case in the past so people have a lot more issues world wide
upgrading custom roms were probably less buggy than ported roms which are released now as betas, maybe they shouldn't be? it seems to be a bit much too ask for many to comprehend
xda's popularity and some people over eagerness to help beginners encourages too many people without enough skills to attempt highly risky things
there are a lot more postings of high end roms and later versions of android onto older hardware so many more issues than in the past where it was more cosmetic adjustments and feature add ons
there are a lot more asian developers so there are a lot of roms that are released and have to be made international (more issues)
a lot of the roms threads are terrible now possibly due to different cultures again
compare note2 threads with note3 threads,note 2 were usually logical with all files in OP are now a lot of note 3 threads are a mess with sometimes note3 base note4 base s6 base and note 5 in same thread and questions and fixes are just donated randomly all through the thread by anyone rather than dev only.
I would consider myself an experienced xda lurker but following just a note 3 means trying to keep on top of many different threads to just make sense out of peoples cross thread posts its very time consuming
a lot of thread starters need to be a lot more organised in the OP and control their threads more, removing comments that are about other roms etc,I think because they know and follow all the other threads as well as there own they assume everyone reading is doing the same. I do feel sorry for someone blindly trying to get started now but a well controlled thread would make huge difference,list known bugs themselves in the OP,
Some developers might be better to hand their thread over to someone enthusiastic to control the thread on their behalf to get back to the great examples set by omega,bobcat ,phoenix ,resurrection dr keten
there are some fantastically helpful and nice people on these forums and some incredibly bright ones but society is what it is
personally I blame Facebook