Restored to Stock and CANNOT update through Kies - AT&T Samsung Galaxy S II Skyrocket SGH-I727

Hey guys,
I have a problem: I restored my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE i727r to stock (I had it rooted but for some reason it lagged so much that I decided to restore it back to stock Gingerbread). Anyway, I want to update to ICS through Samsung Kies but the thing is that Kies does not recognize my phone. I believe I actually know why... When you do into stock recovery mode (by holding VOLUME DOWN button at startup), a normal phone is supposed to say:
ODIN MODE
PRODUCT NAME: SGH-I727R
CUSTOM BINARY DOWNLOAD: NO
CURRENT BINARY: SAMSUNG OFFICIAL
However my phone says this:
ODIN MODE
PRODUCT NAME: SGH-I727R
CUSTOM BINARY DOWNLOAD: YES(4 counts)
CURRENT BINARY: CUSTOM
1) How do I change this back to the way it is supposed to be (like just out of the box)?
2) Does this affect my warranty with Samsung? (despite the fact that my device is NOT rooted (confirmed with Root Check Basic))
3) Why did this happen/ What is this?
Any response will be appreciated ,
Thank you very much guys! I'll be waiting to hear from you!

Follow the link. This is a thread i made when starting out and notices my counter had veen tripped. 1st page 2nd post has a link to the counter reset. (I couldn't get the link here for some reason). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1721080
You must have done some flashing in Odin. U say your not rooted but I assume u used to be. And yes your warranty is now void but that really doesn't matter much
-----------------------------------------------
Sent from my Skyrocket i727 running Sky ICS
PS: If I was able to help you then hit thanks
For a one stop shop here is Vincom's thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1652398

You tripped your counter because you didn't use an official stock rom... It was modified
If you download a real rom from sammobile it won't trip the counter.
Or... Use the counter reset hack
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium

here's another question?
the yellow triangle is it always there? i never noticed before if it was there or not but i see some programs that will get rid of it but really do you need to? i cant remember if my brand new never been flashed phone showed that triangle or not.

popcorn900 said:
here's another question?
the yellow triangle is it always there? i never noticed before if it was there or not but i see some programs that will get rid of it but really do you need to? i cant remember if my brand new never been flashed phone showed that triangle or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No the triangle isn't supposed to be there. It's from flashing unofficial firmware in Odin. Reset the counter and flash official stock firmware.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

xcrazydx said:
No the triangle isn't supposed to be there. It's from flashing unofficial firmware in Odin. Reset the counter and flash official stock firmware.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dude even using the reseter its still there. lol but who cares rogers not getting these phones back.

Don't know if you resolved our issue but you can try this if you haven't. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1749021

chiming in here, i never realized it but i had a 1 count for CUSTOM BINARY DOWNLOAD, , i dont know how long i had it because ive been flashing since i got the phone in april, and that message is so damn small i couldnt even see it, but i think i always had the yellow triangle when keeping the volume down button, but its not there when actually entering download mode when hitting the volume up button, which is where the custom rom counter is.
so i reflashed stock rogers via odin, it does "not" reset the counter
flashed twrp via odin then flashed flash_counter_reset.zip
went back into dl mode still yellow triangle on the first screen(warning screen)
, second screen(when hitting volume up) the odin counter now states "NO"
so does any1 for a fact has no yellow triangle when entering dl on the warning screen.
i would like to post this info on my sticky
edit: i always thought the yellow triangle was a warning b4 getting into dl mode of flashing a custom rom not that you did flash a custom rom, would the warning yellow triangle turn to a red stop sign if the counter was tripped, lol
edit: i found the original thread where the reset file was posted http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1575712

vincom said:
chiming in here, i never realized it but i had a 1 count for CUSTOM BINARY DOWNLOAD, , i dont know how long i had it because ive been flashing since i got the phone in april, and that message is so damn snall i couldnt even see it, but i think i always had the yellow triangle when keeping the volume down button, but its not there when actually entering download mode when hitting the volume up button, which is where the custom rom counter is.
so i reflashed stock rogers via odin, it does "not" reset the counter
flashed twrp via odin then flashed flash_counter_reset.zip
went back into dl mode still yellow triangle on the first screen(warning screen)
, second screen(when hitting volume up) the odin counter now states "NO"
so does any1 for a fact has no yellow triangle when entering dl on the warning screen.
i would like to post this info on my sticky
edit: i always thought the yellow triangle was a warning b4 getting into dl mode of flashing a custom rom not that you did flash a custom rom, would the warning yellow triangle turn to a red stop sign if the counter was tripped, lol
edit: i found the original thread where the reset file was posted http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1575712
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ya i think your right about the triangle. i think it is there on there first screen as a warning.

Related

[Q] Help Infuse stuck at boot screen

My infuse is stuck at boot screen saying Galaxy S GT-I9000 and it won't go into CWM or anything even when i connect my usb cable.
iswift said:
My infuse is stuck at boot screen saying Galaxy S GT-I9000 and it won't go into CWM or anything even when i connect my usb cable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is looks like you flashed an I9000 rom.That's a no no, unless you flash Hellraiser rom right after. Since you can't get into recovery, you will have to use Odin or Hiemdall to be able to boot up. That's only if your positive you cannot get into recovery.
[ODIN][UCLB3] AT&T 2.3.6 Gingerbread with root and CWM recovery option - Infuse 4g
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=25177681
[AT&T] [ROM] [UCLB3] Heimdall One-Click Return to Stock + Easy CWM Installation
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=23118134
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
I am 100% i can't get into recovery mode and when i try getting into download mode all it says is downloading with a big triangle with an android person in the middle with a shovel.
edit: My phone won't even boot anymore. Like it won't even turn on
iswift said:
I am 100% i can't get into recovery mode and when i try getting into download mode all it says is downloading with a big triangle with an android person in the middle with a shovel.
edit: My phone won't even boot anymore. Like it won't even turn on
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let is sit with the charger plugged in might need to be charged...you want to be in download mode to do the one click or Odin...the big triangle with the android dude shoveling...that is what you want...Odin or one click it back to stock and you can if you want read up on a few items...see my links in my signature, ok
good luck
Yes, just keep going with it. When I bricked my phone the big triangle etc wasn't showing any response. However, I went ahead and flashed with Odin (Odin could see my phone) and when it was done, the screen restarted and booted normally.

Phone bricked- Stuck in Download mode

Hey everyone
I went to return my skyrocket to stock 2.3.5 using the sticky'd thread in the development section. It has, in fact, bricked my phone and im stuck with the "Firmware upgrade encountered and issue connect to kies blah blah blah".
I first tried using the Konane one and it got stuck on boot.img. After that is when it bricked in download mode. I downloaded the home sghi727 md5 stock odin file and now that is getting stuck on the boot.img.
Any suggestions will definitely be heard
:fingers-crossed:
Try the 2.3.5 tar from sammobile
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
spags1213 said:
Hey everyone
I went to return my skyrocket to stock 2.3.5 using the sticky'd thread in the development section. It has, in fact, bricked my phone and im stuck with the "Firmware upgrade encountered and issue connect to kies blah blah blah".
I first tried using the Konane one and it got stuck on boot.img. After that is when it bricked in download mode. I downloaded the home sghi727 md5 stock odin file and now that is getting stuck on the boot.img.
Any suggestions will definitely be heard
:fingers-crossed:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
u r not hardbricked, just soft bricked, just tell me if u can get to the download mode, didnt understand if u can in ur post
vincom said:
u r not hardbricked, just soft bricked, just tell me if u can get to the download mode, didnt understand if u can in ur post
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The screen has a yellow triangle
says
ODIN MODE
Product Name: SGH-i727
Cus Binary DL: NO
Current Binary: Samsung official
Under the triangle it says "Firmware upgrade encountered an issue. Please select recovery mode in kies and try again"
spags1213 said:
The screen has a yellow triangle
says
ODIN MODE
Product Name: SGH-i727
Cus Binary DL: NO
Current Binary: Samsung official
Under the triangle it says "Firmware upgrade encountered an issue. Please select recovery mode in kies and try again"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its in the stickies on how to get into download mode, did u try that
That is DL mode. Just another form of it. Flash the stock Odin tar.
hechoen said:
That is DL mode. Just another form of it. Flash the stock Odin tar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's correct, is still in dl mode when it says that. Reflash the tar
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
xcrazydx said:
that's correct, is still in dl mode when it says that. Reflash the tar
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hechoen said:
That is DL mode. Just another form of it. Flash the stock Odin tar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive been trying over and over but odin is stuck just after connecting at boot.img and it doesnt go anywhere from there. Its been under a year since ive had the phone. I was on the UCLE2 Sky ICS and I was experiencing problems.
You guys think I might need to go to ATT and get a replacement? It still says everything is stock. It doesnt look like the flash counter has tripped.
Thanks
Step 1, If you haven't done so, do MD5 verification of the file you downloaded.
Step 3, Next, reboot your computer. I had the exact same problems and my USB ports stopped playing nice with my phone. After a reboot, everything went well. I also have a feeling something in the Kies update messes up the connection and leaves something hanging. Don't touch kies until you get out of download mode.
Step 3, click on the Thanks button.
Lucidmike said:
Step 1, If you haven't done so, do MD5 verification of the file you downloaded.
Step 3, Next, reboot your computer. I had the exact same problems and my USB ports stopped playing nice with my phone. After a reboot, everything went well. I also have a feeling something in the Kies update messes up the connection and leaves something hanging. Don't touch kies until you get out of download mode.
Step 3, click on the Thanks button.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha wish I could.
Ive restarted several times already but I went ahead and did it again. Odin gets to the boot.img and again just hangs there. Odin recognizes the phone thats not the problem just something to do with the phone and it wanting to be flashed through odin. I also verified the md5 with no surprises.(its off of sammobile)
Im using both the 1.85 Konane Odin and the general Android + SLP Odin achieving the same boot.img hang up. Im going to try and reboot again,
This happend to me, held the power button and restarted phone.
Then Odin properly recognized my phone
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using XDA
Try a different USB port. Or cable if still an issue.
--
SGH-I727 using Tapatalk, running cm9. Trouble searching? http://www.googleguide.com/advanced_operators.html
Tweakecho said:
This happend to me, held the power button and restarted phone.
Then Odin properly recognized my phone
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mindmajick said:
Try a different USB port. Or cable if still an issue.
--
SGH-I727 using Tapatalk, running cm9. Trouble searching? http://www.googleguide.com/advanced_operators.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was FINALLY ABLE TO GET IT TO GO!!!!
It was a combination of restarting my phone while in odin and going into kies and reinstalling the device drivers several times. Thanks for everyone's input.:good::good::good:
ON A SIDE NOTE:
I don't think the sticky'd thread in the dev section works anymore. Someone may want to verify that it still works so people can avoid problems like this
it still works.. i just used it two days ago on mine and it got stock honeycomb installed.
only problem was afterwards, it got stuck on "touch android to begin" with some errors.
read this if u had probs returning to stock http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1652398

[Q] Help: BRICK'd. can't boot into anything (recovery, download, etc)

background: rooted and was running 4.1 stock and CWM 10.0 on verizon gs3. i wanted to bump up to jelly bean 4.2 with CWM 10.1.
first i tried using Rom Manager and Rom Toolkit to flash a new rom. from Rom Manager, i rebooted into recovery and got stuck on the CWM boot screen.
After 30 minutes or so i pulled the battery and tried flashing the stock .tar.md5 using Odin and ended up with this:
"System software not authorized by verizon wireless has been found on your phone. Please turn off your phone and go to the nearest verizon wireless store for help."
now i can't boot into download or recovery. i just have this screen with the yellow exclamation point and the above message.
how screwed am i? i've tried reading everywhere and from what i can gather i didn't wipe my cache sufficiently, but all the other threads just say 'use Odin to get back to stock', but i can't get into download mode so i can't use odin.
please help.
You're bootloader wasn't unlocked. Pull the battery then hold power, volume down, and home for fifteen or twenty seconds until it boots into download mode. Odin flash a stock rom then root AND ALSO unlock your bootloader.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
SlimSnoopOS said:
You're bootloader wasn't unlocked. Pull the battery then hold power, volume down, and home for fifteen or twenty seconds until it boots into download mode. Odin flash a stock rom then root AND ALSO unlock your bootloader.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have noticed that a lot of people have not unlocked the bootloader are posting on here that they have "bricked" their phones.
jmxc23 said:
I have noticed that a lot of people have not unlocked the bootloader posted on here that they have "bricked" their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha, I agree although I think its occurred in decreasing fashion since August. Being "bricked" is used overeagerly by folks not wholly understanding their situation. You really have to try to brick this device before that word can be used correctly.
Your phone has not been bricked. You will know that you have bricked your phone when you can't turn on your phone at all. No download mode and no recovery mode also no pulling of the battery just a dead phone.
ClockworkMod
When you fix your phone, root then unlock the bootloader... You can try RM again but I believe that it is best to use ClockworkMod (or the Touch version) for flashing instead of ROM Manager - old fashion, maybe, but it works!
NOTE: Once you start flashing it becomes addictive - you have been warned
thanks for the comments. my apologies for using the term Brick incorrectly as it seems to really chap the cheeks of some people on this board (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2149210)
no luck with holding down buttons with the battery pulled. i ordered a USB Jig to try and force it back into download mode.
From there, what should my first step be? return to stock?
jondotwoz said:
thanks for the comments. my apologies for using the term Brick incorrectly as it seems to really chap the cheeks of some people on this board (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2149210)
no luck with holding down buttons with the battery pulled. i ordered a USB Jig to try and force it back into download mode.
From there, what should my first step be? return to stock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
youll need to put the battery back in......lol
ddurandSGS3 said:
youll need to put the battery back in......lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
obviously. i've tried this a million times. It shows the download screen green android robot and the text in the top left for about 4 seconds. then it goes black and the yellow triangle comes back telling me unauthorized software is on there.
check here. particularly post 2. i think thats what you want.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1840030&highlight=odin
ddurandSGS3 said:
check here. particularly post 2. i think thats what you want.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1840030&highlight=odin
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks that's a very helpful thread. However, i still can't get into download/Odin mode. i'm guessing if/once the USB jig can force the phone into download mode, this is where i'll start.
thanks for everyone's help and patience.

[Q] Dead phone - how to revive

I have a stock AT&T S2 (I727) that worked fine. We're now in Costa Rica and I need it unlocked. I'm short on time and the local phone shop said they could unlock it.
They couldn't and gave it back, saying the battery was low.
Battery is recharged, but the phone will not turn on or show any signs of life. When plugged into the charger, nothing on the screen. No response to the reset button sequence.
I downloaded Odin and the S2 drivers and the phone appears, but it's in yellow. When I press the power button, Odin responds with a sound. That's it.
I have no idea what they did, but I know it sure not saving me any time!! Esp since ATT may have just given me the code....
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks!
Kurt
Wrong forum... This forum is for i777
Anyways
Do you know how to use Odin? What is yellow? If it says COM port yellow that is a good thing, Odin sees your phone. You need it in download mode ( holding both volume up and down while phone is off and Odin on your screen plug it in to the computer, if they loaded a different ROM on it then only holding volume down might put it in download mode) then browse to your stock att ROM with Odin under PDA section and hit flash. Don't change any settings on Odin ... Only add a check mark to update boot loaders. Keep trying until you get a successful flash. After the phone AUTOMATICALLY reboots you can try the 3 button combo, get into recovery and reset to factory and reboot. Hope it helps ...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda app-developers app
Please be careful where you post and get information from to avoid making your phone an expensive paperweight.
Moved to S2 forums
FNM
They bricked ur phone when they tried to unlock it, I almost guarantee it. You could've just purchased an unlock code off the net, but I digress. Keep trying to get the phone to go green in Odin. My guess may be the USB drivers you have installed are incorrect as well.
Yeah, the shop bricked your phone.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Little bit late on this party, but yeah they bricked the phone...And those animals in that shop said it's low on Battery lol....
Go back to that shop and give them crap or they reimburse you with the phone price...
Commodore 64 said:
Wrong forum... This forum is for i777
Anyways
Do you know how to use Odin? What is yellow? If it says COM port yellow that is a good thing, Odin sees your phone. You need it in download mode ( holding both volume up and down while phone is off and Odin on your screen plug it in to the computer, if they loaded a different ROM on it then only holding volume down might put it in download mode) then browse to your stock att ROM with Odin under PDA section and hit flash. Don't change any settings on Odin ... Only add a check mark to update boot loaders. Keep trying until you get a successful flash. After the phone AUTOMATICALLY reboots you can try the 3 button combo, get into recovery and reset to factory and reboot. Hope it helps ...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Argh. I looked for a 727 forum, but I didn't look for a Skyrocket forum. Sorry.
And sorry for the delay - we lost internet for a while when we got a new house (here in CR).
The shop is willing to try and fix the phone, but not sure I trust them but not sure of my abilities yet.
They said they just updated it. But that's not what they were trying to do - they were supposed to be unlocking it.
Thanks for the detailed directions.
No, I don't know Odin. Reading up a lot....
Yes, it's the COM port that is yellow.
I think I have the correct USB drivers - the computer recognizes my S3 as a I535.
So, I have KIES_HOME_I727UCMC1_I727ATTMC1_844945_REV02_user_low_ship.tar.md5 (stock ROM I believe) downloaded. Odin shows this as the entry next to PDA.
Hard to tell the phone is in the download mode, since there's no display.
I've been delaying, but I guess it's time to try....
Kurt S said:
Argh. I looked for a 727 forum, but I didn't look for a Skyrocket forum. Sorry.
And sorry for the delay - we lost internet for a while when we got a new house (here in CR).
The shop is willing to try and fix the phone, but not sure I trust them but not sure of my abilities yet.
They said they just updated it. But that's not what they were trying to do - they were supposed to be unlocking it.
Thanks for the detailed directions.
No, I don't know Odin. Reading up a lot....
Yes, it's the COM port that is yellow.
I think I have the correct USB drivers - the computer recognizes my S3 as a I535.
So, I have KIES_HOME_I727UCMC1_I727ATTMC1_844945_REV02_user_low_ship.tar.md5 (stock ROM I believe) downloaded. Odin shows this as the entry next to PDA.
Hard to tell the phone is in the download mode, since there's no display.
I've been delaying, but I guess it's time to try....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WAIT!
---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------
jd1639 said:
WAIT!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have an i727 s2 skyrocket or a s3?
No problem, I can wait.
Kurt S said:
No problem, I can wait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What phone are you trying to flash with odin? I727 or i535?
The wife's phone is the S2 I727 and it's dead.
I mentioned the S3 because it seems to indicate the computer has the correct USB drivers.
jd1639 said:
What phone are you trying to flash with odin? I727 or i535?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The ucmc1 tar file in your post is for the i727. If that's the phone you have then go ahead and flash it. If you have an i535 it'll probably brick your phone, don't flash it.
So I tried flashing it. Odin says 'SetupConnection', but then nothing else happened. It didn't pass or fail.
I'm not sure what to do next - I'm afraid to interrupt the process, but nothing is happening...
Kurt S said:
So I tried flashing it. Odin says 'SetupConnection', but then nothing else happened. It didn't pass or fail.
I'm not sure what to do next - I'm afraid to interrupt the process, but nothing is happening...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the phone has no signs of life it is hardbricked as such odin/computer wont see it, jtag is the only way to fix it
So I guess at this point it doesn't matter what I do - just unplug it or shut down Odin first....
Interesting, Odin still sees it and COM is still yellow. But I don't hear a response from Odin when I press the buttons on the phone.
Trying again.....
Pull battery, hold both volume buttons and insert USB cable from PC..... Release volume keys after about 5 sec.... Push volume - key after that try to flash with odin
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda app-developers app
Never too late right? lol
Hemidall would've been the right move here.

yellow triangle help!

so ive been searching for help with this with no luck so hopefully one of you guys can help. I rooted my s3 no problem with odin 1.85. I have rom downloader on my phone and when I flashed a new rom I got stuck at the yellow triangle screen and also says secureboot is also enabled. how can I fix this to download the triangle away app?
any help would be appreciated
shootermcgavin88 said:
so ive been searching for help with this with no luck so hopefully one of you guys can help. I rooted my s3 no problem with odin 1.85. I have rom downloader on my phone and when I flashed a new rom I got stuck at the yellow triangle screen and also says secureboot is also enabled. how can I fix this to download the triangle away app?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you didn't unlocked the bootloader. FYI triangle away requires an unlocked bootloader as the flash counter is part of the bootloader so triangle away can't do anything to help you. Next time complete ALL steps in any root method and actually read more about an app before assuming it will help you. Lastly I recommend using the latest version of Odin.
jmxc23 said:
you didn't unlocked the bootloader. FYI triangle away requires an unlocked bootloader as the flash counter is part of the bootloader so triangle away can't do anything to help you. Next time complete ALL steps in any root method and actually read more about an app before assuming it will help you. Lastly I recommend using the latest version of Odin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I figured out the hard way the bootloader wasn't unlocked lol and im not an expert on rooting obviously but im not a noob as well this isn't my first time rooting lol so I do understand triangle away wasn't going to work. my question is how do I fix this issue? the only thing that happens when I power on is I get the yellow triangle and that's it. I can go into recovery mode but that's it. is it as simple as downloading an .exe file or what? and thank you for the response:good:
shootermcgavin88 said:
I figured out the hard way the bootloader wasn't unlocked lol and im not an expert on rooting obviously but im not a noob as well this isn't my first time rooting lol so I do understand triangle away wasn't going to work. my question is how do I fix this issue? the only thing that happens when I power on is I get the yellow triangle and that's it. I can go into recovery mode but that's it. is it as simple as downloading an .exe file or what? and thank you for the response:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
unfortunately you will have to do the root process all over again.
shootermcgavin88 said:
I figured out the hard way the bootloader wasn't unlocked lol and im not an expert on rooting obviously but im not a noob as well this isn't my first time rooting lol so I do understand triangle away wasn't going to work. my question is how do I fix this issue? the only thing that happens when I power on is I get the yellow triangle and that's it. I can go into recovery mode but that's it. is it as simple as downloading an .exe file or what? and thank you for the response:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to boot to download mode. Hold the volume down, menu, and power key (with the phone off). After the first icon comes on release the power key (I can't remember, but I think that's right). Then Odin back to stock, root, unlock the bootloader, etc...

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