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Hello XDA-dev community
For the past couple of months i've been thinking about getting a Pocket PC for a new phone instead of a Symbian Nokia [ah my old 6630, may she rest in pieces...]. Anywho, I think i've decided on the HTC Touch Pro / Raphael. At ~AU$600 it's the highest I was trying not to pay (i'm not rich), however it seems to be a pretty powerful and full featured device.
I do have a few questions I hope some of the kind experts/veterans here might be able to answer for me though
1) I written a few things in Java and PHP and other even-more-basic languages, but am interested in learning a new language with hopes to create software for both Windows PC and Windows Mobile. What choices do we as end-users have here? .NET is an obvious one [I own a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Pro], but are there any other languages of note?
2) From the Raphael specs on the Wiki here, it lists it as an ARMv6 architecture-based processor. This comes from the ARM11 family, which is the successor (I think) to the XScale family (ARMv5TE). Are these ARMv6 processors backwards compatible with 'XScale accelerated' binary builds of software? I.E., a PPC application has two versions for download/purchase - a 'Generic ARM Release' and an 'XScale optimized release' - would the Raphael ARMv6-based device be compatible with these XScale-optimized binaries? Or do ARM do things differently and ARMv6 is not backwards compatible?
3) Has anybody ever heard any rumors or made any talks about porting Android to the Raphael? Just curious. I'd prefer a Windows Mobile device (not a Linux user) but I can see all this OpenSource stuff does have a future... EDIT: Nevermind, I found the page at http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=RaphaelLinux
4) How does the device perform with 3D-heavy applications? Does it make use of any sort of acceleration (I assume no, not like the iPhone for example).
OK thats all... thanks a lot for your replies, if there's anything else you think is worth mentioning to a soon-to-be-first-time owner of a Windows Mobile device, please do say so Cheers.
In reply to 2) VS 2005 Pro onwards targets code at ARMv4I, basically generic ARM processors also capable of running the Thumb (16 bit) instruction set. Thumb represents a limited set of ARM 32 bit instructions coded as 16 bit instructions. It allows much smaller code sections, but with megabytes of memory available these days who cares? If you code in .NET none of this matters anyway, as the code is created as IL byte code, the .NET runtime sorts it out.
If you code in Embedded Visual C++ 3 or 4 the target chipset is ARMv4. When you use the IDE to create the code on a WinMo 5/6 machine it complains that the target machine cannot run the code. It's lying, what it really means is it does not recognize the processor class. As it is ARM 32bit code only it will work.
It is not worth targetting the code for a specific, (read non generic), ARM chipset. You are just making a rod for your own back when it won't work on something else.
Thanks for the reply stephj. There will indeed be a bit of research for me to do as to which language and/or IDE I decide to choose to train myself in then it seems. Specifically though...
stephj said:
It is not worth targetting the code for a specific, (read non generic), ARM chipset. You are just making a rod for your own back when it won't work on something else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...what I was referring to is - I've seen some freeware PPC software, mainly emulators, that have two versions - a 'generic ARM' one and an 'XScale Compatible' alternative version. On the ARMv6 based phones, assuming the software was released back when XScale was the newest ARM family, would both work on the Raphael? If so, which would be faster?
Obviously though, for a developer, creating the most compatible/generic code to work on the widest range of devices is the main focus - later possibly implementing optimiziations or hacks that are specific to a certain platform - but I'm just wondering if these already built, older 'specifically optimized' builds are compatible with the succeeded chipsets.
P.S. Do you know where I could find some resources on choosing between Visual C++ or .NET? I.e. pros and cons of each?
Thanks a lot!
jonusc said:
Hello XDA-dev community
...
1) I written a few things in Java and PHP and other even-more-basic languages, but am interested in learning a new language with hopes to create software for both Windows PC and Windows Mobile. What choices do we as end-users have here? .NET is an obvious one [I own a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Pro], but are there any other languages of note?
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since you have VS2008Pro, C++/win32 if you want fast and lightweight applications
"P.S. Do you know where I could find some resources on choosing between Visual C++ or .NET? I.e. pros and cons of each?"
.net pros
easy to get something running fast even if one is a n00b
got a lot of components meaning less time to develop
can be programmed with c# and c++ and even eeeeewww basic
.net con
slow as in sloooooowww
require one to install the framework if the app
require a newer version then what ones phone came with and the framework is pretty big
and people don't seem to have success with installing it on sd cards
compact framework is also limited in features vs. .net on pc so apps don't just port always
limited in features unless one do unmanaged code
c++ pro
fast
require no extre stuff
small in size and again fast
have access to every feature in the phone
c++ con
one have to do everything and that mean msg loop
and a lot of leg work just to get a dialog with a button
steaper learning curve
more risks of mem leaking
harder to debug as stacktrace is not just there
like on .net
Very nice, thanks for the replies guys
So from what I can gather, a basic .NET application would be ideal for RAD (quick and dirty), particularly GUI-centric applications, but tend to be bulky; whereas C(++) is a more native / low-level language and is thus faster, but very hardcore as most functions need to be done from scratch.
I should have assumed it's pretty much the same as a Windows PC
What about C++ versus C#? And does VS2008 have a decent API/IDE set for mobile development i.e. does it have many libraries for C(++/#) already included or are more easily available?
Thanks again for the answers guys... it's obvious i'm keen to learn about it, but i'm a little worried that someone like me going from stuff like PHP and VB to C might be biting off more than I could chew....? Ah well if .NET is gonna cause problems down the line, then I guess I have no choice
Don't bother with the C++ version of .NET, the casts that you have to make, to get it to work makes the code very hard to read, and besides it only compiles to the IL level anyway, it's just not worth the effort.
So, under .NET use C#, or VB if you prefer, there is not much difference between them, but in my opinion, C# is a bit more elegant.
Under C++ you have the choices of WIN32, ATL (Active Template Library), or MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes), programming models.
WIN32 is the simplist but the hardest to code, the other two add progressively more objects to make things easier, but you need to distribute the run time libraries with them. A simple WIN32 app can be distributed as a single .EXE if the DLLs it already uses are part of the CE/PPC operating system.
PS When it comes to running code compiled for a specific ARM class on your device, just give it a go. If the CPU hits an instruction it can't run, it will throw an exception and stop anyway.
stephj said:
Don't bother with the C++ version of .NET, the casts that you have to make, to get it to work makes the code very hard to read, and besides it only compiles to the IL level anyway, it's just not worth the effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough. So C++ in VS2008 is a bad idea
stephj said:
So, under .NET use C#, or VB if you prefer, there is not much difference between them, but in my opinion, C# is a bit more elegant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought VB was dead? Wasn't VB6 the last one they made? Or is VB just what they call generic/common .NET Framework apps? Anyway, yeah i've read good things about C#, especially compared to .NET in general. EDIT: Oh, .NET is not the program language but VB is *facepalm* I get it, nevermind
stephj said:
Under C++ you have the choices of WIN32, ATL (Active Template Library), or MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes), programming models.
WIN32 is the simplist but the hardest to code, the other two add progressively more objects to make things easier, but you need to distribute the run time libraries with them. A simple WIN32 app can be distributed as a single .EXE if the DLLs it already uses are part of the CE/PPC operating system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, same as a Windows PC. That makes sense.
Thanks for the answers I think I might take a look at C sharp.
C++ in VS2008 is fine, use the smart device WIN32 ,ATL, or MFC models take your pick.
Sorry my mistake, the C++ .NET version is not available for smart devices. Its the three models above only.
After additional research, I don't really want to be tied down with the proprietary C# system. So is VS2008 a decent IDE for WIN32 C++ development on Windows Mobile? Or are there better alternatives?
VS 2005/2008 Pro takes some beating. After you have installed about 3 CD's worth of MSDN libraries all the help is on tap. The IDE also looks at MSDN online if you have an internet connection to see if there are any forums on the same topic you are inquiring about.
The code is generated as ARMv4I and can be tested/debugged on the images provided by the WinMo 5 or 6 SDK. The emulators are that good you only put it on your phone when you have tested it to death on the emulator.
EVC 3 and 4 use a previous method where the emulators run a x86 version of the code. I still use EVC 4 for code that has to run on anything, Windows Mobile 2003 for example.
It's all pretty proprietory, when it comes down to it, but I guess we're stuck with it.
So this is probably a silly question.
I have this rather complicated app that would be a heck of a lot of work to convert to Java.
It runs in the command line and works fine in Linux.
Trying to run it fails, but x86 bytecode probably isn't very ARM friendly.
Is there a specific way I need to compile the application?
Is it even possible to run it from a console emulator?
Thanks.
Try Android NDK
I am also new to Android Dev ( 15+ years Linux, 10+ years Java, etc.)
I am not an expert but for your purposes you need the "Android NDK" in addition to the "Android SDK" that most developers utilize.
"The Android NDK is a toolset that lets you embed components that make use of native code in your Android applications.
Android applications run in the Dalvik virtual machine. The NDK allows you to implement parts of your applications using native-code languages such as C and C++. "
Basically the tools are needed to cross compile C++ source code for the target ARM environment.
I am prevented from posting the download URL for some bizarre reason, but it is listed under "Native Development Tools" on the left side of the web page for the standard "Android SDK" download.
Yeah that's because you are new. It's a system to prevent spammers from posting URLs.
When you have a couple of posts the restriction will disappear
Anyway; found it, seems to be what I'm looking for.
I'll check it out in the morning.
Big thanks
Dmitry Moskalchukhas written a patch for the ndk to better support c++ see crytax dot net there are posts on google groups android-ndk talking about it
Thxs for the info. I was aware that the NDK did not include all of the libs that desktop Linux/UNIX developers expect. The suggested patched version adds the STL libs back in.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
There are A LOT of libraries missing
I guess I'll just keep it a hosted app.
Thanks for all the input
This is something that is driving me crazy, shouldt be MIPS Android SDK and NDK be compatible with any source maded for the ARM version?
First thing i noticed with this Ainol Novo 7 Basic was that, the small amount of compatible apps, none of the better apps are compatible.
No: Netflix, Skype, Android Terminal Emulator, MX video Player, Chainfire3D, any mame32/nes emu, a working barcode reader, connectbot, adosbox/qemu, opera or any other browser. and the list goes on.
I wonder why, i trought devs will want the larger amount of users as posible.
For the record, i just got Android Terminal Emulator working in my Novo 7 Basic, i had to:
1) Download Term source code
2) Download MIPS Android SDK, NDK, Apache ANT, Eclipse with ADL, cgywin (to compile NDK libs)
3) Import Term project to eclipse
4) change the target build to android-12
5) change Aplication.mk to "APP_ABI := mips mips-r2"
6) build ndk-libs for the app
7) build the project with eclipse
And i know nothing about programing for android, just c/c++
Best guess that anyone will probably give you is that the majority of devices out there running Android are ARM based, but as that changes, the number and quality of available apps should improve.
There is a HUGE obstacle to overcome however. Not many people are going to buy a device today based on what might run on it months from now, especially when there are devices out there that will run it now, and many of those that do purchase a MIPS based device consider it a mistake and end up returning it.
It is not possible to offer two different version on the market and i don't think it is possible to restrict the apps to a specific architecture.
Are the number of MIPS devices really rising? The android market doesn't really seem to be ready for that. It would mean even more app versions devs would have to consider.
Which apps work and which don't?
Maybe those using native code, compiled with NDK don't work, as those routines are compiled specificly for ARM.
Don't take my word for it though, just some thoughts.
its not possible to get 2 different versions on the market.
Rumor has it that the problem is frequently a development oversight and that it's related to omitting some important MIPS related files from the package build.
I imagine that it can also be related to poor programming practices and also programming for optimized code.
~~ Sent from my Velocity Micro Cruz PT701/T105 via Tapatalk ~~
As far as I know, Market supports device specific apk's nowadays, which would make it possible to have an mips apk...
http://developer.android.com/guide/market/publishing/multiple-apks.html
Altough the proccess is not trivial, it is not that difficult either, just minor changes to the manifest and filter the apk for Native Platform...
Also, it would be possible to compile it for all devices that the current NDK supports, by using the latest revision of NDK (as of November 2011):
http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html#overview
You just need to add:
APP_ABI := all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to the makefile and it should now be compatible with all processor architectures that NDK supports....
So, now there are means to easily support different processor architectures, but, don't expect quick adoption of it, as, unfortunately, this depends entirely upon developer will to change some of its project settings and/or publishing way (it is entirely possible, now, to have a single apk for all platforms)...
Unfortunately, right now, and I would dare to say, in the next 6 - 8 Months, I would not expect this to change much... Altough the official NDK has support for multiple devices, it still doesn't incorporate the MIPS abi, which is not official, and thus, it is not possible to declare that an APK for a native MIPS device as well...
Hopefully MIPS devices will grab a nice piece of the Android devices and then "force" Google to officially support those devices. I believe that it is possible to grab the latest unoficial NDK and use it with APP_ABI all and publish it to the Market, but, as of today, is mostly something recent and that few (if any) developers support (remember, this possibility came with November's NDK, I'm not even sure if MIPs NDK is already up to date with Google's November NDK), so, I would dare to say, MIPS devices are not in a good position right now (even x86 devices, which have official support, are not...).
I have a MIPS based tablet named "MIDI Japan MD-785IP" that is quite nice but is making me sad with the lack of some softwares and in special, lack of ROMs to it. Apparently I am the only person in the internet that have one
shivansps said:
This is something that is driving me crazy, shouldt be MIPS Android SDK and NDK be compatible with any source maded for the ARM version?
...
For the record, i just got Android Terminal Emulator working in my Novo 7 Basic, i had to:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
Have you shared that MIPS compatible Android Terminal Emulator?
Thank you
Sure... and here is connectbot too.
Ive attemped to recompile adosbox too but the source code and makefiles are just a big mess and no documentation provided.
And that is another problem, poor documentation in open source projects.
BTW, Market has to have some way to know if a app is for arm or mips, since market on basic only shows up compatible apps.
Also, its no enoght to just incluide the "mips" folder along with "armabi" with all mips compiled .so files inside the libs folder? because is that all what it takes, unless the app is using binaries.
And im agree that google has most of the fault for not incluiding mips supprt in his NDK, the mips one can compile for both.
I wonder what will happen when intel medfield will came out...
I am in an even worse position - I bought 2 NOVO7Paladins - one for the g/f. I had to get one for myself, because I know I will be 1st line support
So, I have a MIPS cpu (with reduced software availability) and also ICS which further reduces app compatibility.
Apps which I consider essential (Samba server, VNC Server, Angry Birds Seasons....) are not available, so l'm currently installing eclipse, JDK, SDK, NDK on a linux box to try to rebuild stuff - it has been many years since I last had to get my hands dirty with code.
I know I have a steep learning curve ahead, but I'm sure it will be many months before there is a significant increase in app availability. I understand though, that if developers have written native code for ARM, they won't be in a hurry to port that to a minority cpu. It is way easier for new apps to be built with different architectures in mind.
Thanks Shivansps, I had been looking for a terminal - I had given up and was trying to get telnet working - a last restort. It was either that or carry a laptop around with me to use ADB
Now, all I need is to get the MIPS ABI to appear in Eclipse AVD setup... (oh, and learn how to code for android )
i dont use Eclipse or SDK myselft any longer, what i do is just recompile shared libs with mips NDK and include the new "mips" folder intro the libs folder of the original .apk file, then re-sign the apk with one click signer.
MapsWithMe for MIPS and x86
maersi said:
I am in an even worse position - I bought 2 NOVO7Paladins - one for the g/f. I had to get one for myself, because I know I will be 1st line support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi! Do you still have MIPS android device?
Would you please test MapsWithMe on it? It's offline world maps based on OpenStreetMap.
We've built apk for mips and x86 architectures but doesn't have any devices to check if it works.
Apk is available here: dl.dropbox.com/u/24013616/MapsWithMe-203-mips-x86-120502.apk
Cheers,
Alex Zolotarev
MapsWithMe Team
AlexanderZolotarev said:
Hi! Do you still have MIPS android device?
Would you please test MapsWithMe on it? It's offline world maps based on OpenStreetMap.
We've built apk for mips and x86 architectures but doesn't have any devices to check if it works.
Apk is available here: dl.dropbox.com/u/24013616/MapsWithMe-203-mips-x86-120502.apk
Cheers,
Alex Zolotarev
MapsWithMe Team
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I still have a mips tablet, but it hasn't gps. Do you want me to check it?
Enviado desde mi ThL W8 usando Tapatalk 2
Hi Guys,
I would like to create simple app with NATIVE code which run in emulator.
It is not possible to use solution in http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1299134&highlight=developer+guide because it's use some ARM code.
Do you have any idea how make things work?
Thank you,
Ch.
You actually could (msotly) use that guide, but you would need to recompile the ARM portion for x86. My guess as to the best way to do this would be to use the "Platform Builder" for CE6 or CE7, instead of using the WinMo 6.5 platform as your target. WinMo only shipped on ARM devices, so far as I know, but the underlying OS, Windows CE, is very portable and the tools for it support building on a wide variety of architectures. WP7 is built on a version of CE somewhere between CE6 and CE7.
Otherwise, the stuff about using ATL, making a COM library, using ComBridge from the WP7 app, etc. all still applies.
That all said... why would you want to do this? Do you not have an actual phone to test on? Porting between ARM and x86 isn't *that* hard, but you shouldn't just assume that it'll work in all cases, so it makes a lot more sense, if you're building native code, to build and test for the same architecture you're planning to release on.
Additionally, the emulator may be missing some of the libraries that are present on the phone.
Thanks a lot. I will try it.
This is very beginning of my school project. I want only demonstrate that is possible to run some native code on WP7. Next phase of project will be on real device which I don't have right now..
Well, good luck, but I'd tend to say you're setting yourself up for a risk of failure. I don't know what it will take to use the CE Platform Builder for something like this; I have it installed but have never tried using it.
There may also be a way to compile for x86 using the WinMo build tools; I think some of the old "emulators" for WinMo were also x86 virtual machines (much like the WP7 emulator is). I never tried, though.
Risk of failure? I don't see how. The hardest part of this is finding a way to get his .exe on the emulator device and unlocking it. If he isn't using ARM ASM in his project, "porting" to x86 (or any other processor WinCE supports) should be trivial as long as a sufficiently complete SDK is available. The main issue with x86 on newer Pocket PC-like targets is that there are no Pocket PC SDKs targeting it newer than the Pocket PC 2003 one. If you want to use newer WM5 only features like GPSAPI, you'd probably need to use a CE 6.0 SDK instead.
If he doesn't want to do real time debugging, any of the Windows CE development tools or even 3rd party tools like Bloodshed DevC++, CE gcc/MinGW or FreePascal should all suffice. Windows CE is a very backward compatible OS so even an application targeting the CE 2.11 platform/SDK should still run on WP7 when you are careful to use supported APIs.
If you don't want to install Platform Builder and generate your own custom OS to base an SDK on, there are plenty of SDKs to choose from. Of course, some are worse than others. If you are using the CE 4.2 or 5.0 STANDARD_SDKs, you might become a bit frustrated when you realize they are missing many basic things like the Windows CE SIP APIs. (something that has been available for CE since 1.01 in 1997). But if you don't care about using the latest native CE kernel features and still want to use a newer IDE like VS2005/VS2008, the CE 5.0 STANDARD_SDK should be enough if you are careful. Though, I usually install things like eMbedded Visual C++ 3.0 and 4.0 along with all the Pocket PC and Handheld PC SDKs just in case I need a header or lib file that one or the other is missing.
The following MS SDKs can target x86:
-eVC3
Pocket PC 2002
Smartphone 2002
Handheld PC 2000
-eVC4
Pocket PC 2003
Smartphone 2003
STANDARDSDK_400
STANDARDSDK_401
STANDARDSDK_420
STANDARDSDK_500
-VS2005/2008
STANDARDSDK_500
Another useful x86 SDK I've found is the one for the Allegro CE/DOS Field PC:
http://www.junipersys.com/Juniper-Systems/support/Developers/Allegro-Field-PC/Allegro-CX
Here are some download links to many of the CE SDKs and compilers that were released over the years:
Here are some links to download some of the tools I've mentioned:
http://www.hpcfactor.com/developer/
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/search.aspx?q=embedded visual tools
You will need SP4 for eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 if you wish to use newer SDKs with it.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/search.aspx?q=pocket pc sdk
Ummm... maybe you missed the part where this is WP7 forum, and the OP is trying to run native code on the WP7 emulator... I can tell from your post that you're not terribly familiar with WP7 development, so here's a few salient points:
Compiling to a .exe is a waste of time. WP7 won't run foreign EXEs, at all, unless you make some pretty low-level changes that aren't possible on the emulator (see "full-unlock" custom ROMs). You have to write a managed app (which compiles to a DLL hosted inside a low-privilege EXE that's built into the system) and a COM library and use the InteropServices ComBridge API. So far we haven't even gotten P/Invoke to work.
WP7, especially Mango, uses a limited set of native APIs and the APIs have changed somewhat in the last decade or so. They aren't supposed to be available to third-party devs at all, so any backward compatibility is basically a convenient accident. Targeting Smartphone 2003 *might* work, but then, it might not. Even a number of WinMo 6.5 APIs aren't available or don't work.
Since it appears that the OP is just going for a demo project, he or she probably is a lot less interested in getting the most powerful APIs, and is probably hoping for something closer to invoking a MessageBox from native code.
All that said, however, it's true that there are WinCE SDKs which can build native x86 code. I'd tend to suggest using the CE6 or CE7 Platform Builders, since they're the most recent (WP7 is somewhere between the two), but there are other options. You probably want to follow the guide as much as possible, including things like using ATL, as it makes writing a COM library a lot easier and that's the best way we currently know for executing native code in WP7.
All,
Please find the attached Windows RT runtime libraries for QT4 (4.8.4). Qt is a cross-platform gui/widget toolkit used in many software applications.
see: http://qt-project.org
I'm posting these here to assist other developers in porting Qt based applications to Window RT
These were built directly from source without code modification. I haven't tested them extensively, so please let me know if there are any issues with them. I've built what I believe are all the necessary libraries (honestly, I'm not a Qt developer), please let me know if anything is missing.
Cheers!
bfosterjr said:
All,
Please find the attached Windows RT runtime libraries for QT4 (4.8.4). Qt is a cross-platform gui/widget toolkit used in many software applications.
see: http://qt-project.org
I'm posting these here to assist other developers in porting Qt based applications to Window RT
These were built directly from source without code modification. I haven't tested them extensively, so please let me know if there are any issues with them. I've built what I believe are all the necessary libraries (honestly, I'm not a Qt developer), please let me know if anything is missing.
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It`s what i want:good:
This is pretty awesome! I wonder how hard it would be to compile KDE using this... (for those who don't know, the K Desktop Environment is avaialble for x86 Windows as well as for Linux/BSD/etc.) I suspect Konqueror would be a pain, but some of the other KDE programs would likely work well. Leaving DBUS running in the background might be unfortunate for battery life, though.
GoodDayToDie said:
This is pretty awesome! I wonder how hard it would be to compile KDE using this... (for those who don't know, the K Desktop Environment is avaialble for x86 Windows as well as for Linux/BSD/etc.) I suspect Konqueror would be a pain, but some of the other KDE programs would likely work well. Leaving DBUS running in the background might be unfortunate for battery life, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Given that its a massive code base.. I'm gonna guess that its pretty hard. I had a quick peek at the source tree.. and it would take some serious effort to port it all (and all the apps!) to VS2012. However, if/when GCC for WOA comes.. it might be manageable to port.. but then again.. everything will be much easier once that happens.
bfosterjr said:
All,
Please find the attached Windows RT runtime libraries for QT4 (4.8.4). Qt is a cross-platform gui/widget toolkit used in many software applications.
see: http://qt-project.org
I'm posting these here to assist other developers in porting Qt based applications to Window RT
These were built directly from source without code modification. I haven't tested them extensively, so please let me know if there are any issues with them. I've built what I believe are all the necessary libraries (honestly, I'm not a Qt developer), please let me know if anything is missing.
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any chance to get Qt Webkit compiled for RT?
Most of WebKit builds OK (JavaScript being the biggest difficulty), but it's a pain. Might be worth trying to build it just as a component, though.