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Hi Guys and girls,
Before we start I do have E-bay and have 100% Track record so if i were to sell at any time of me being here on Xda.com, You can buy
With knowing i am a honest and reliable trader.
Long story cut short, I have a htc desire hd ( In sig ) And A Samsung galaxy S Being delivered on thursday. ( Phone upgrade )
Now the dilemma i am facing is this;
What phone do i keep, DHD OR SGS?
What Phone is More Future proof?
If i were to sell one ( Which i am debating on doing so as Really low on cash atm ..) What one should i sell.
Thanks for reading guys,
The end result and pro's and con's of the answers will help me decided on what phone to keep and Possibly sell the other one here.
I would keep the DHD. Better phone in my opinion but mostly because HTC have a better track record of after sales care. Both devices have good community support so that's a tick for both.
EDIT: Might be worth adding a poll to guage opinion.
I shall add a poll when I get home.
I'm on neutral ground atm, so opinions are appreciated x
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Go for the Galaxy S
The Desire HD is a GREAT phone, but the Samsung Galaxy S is the fastest phone on the market at the moment. It has a great interface, and may be one of the first phones to update to 2.3, although maybe not in the US, as very few of the Galaxy S phones have Official 2.2, but they each have either custom roms or official leaks.
I use the Samsung Fascinate with 2.2.1 Official Leak and its great. I love it and will buy the next Generation of Galaxy S.
I like keeping my phones (I'm OCD that way, lol) but I had to sell one, I would sell the one I wasn't going to use as my phone.
You might also want to test each phone out to see which phone is better for you. I like phones that are fast and slim, I like Touchwiz, but I love HTC Sense. But I am willing to sacrifice having sense for the toggles on top of the Notification bar (Wifi, GPS, etc.)
If the Galaxy S ever gets an officail update to 2.3 i'll chew off my arm and eat it with ketchup!
I shall be receiving my SGS tomorrow morning Via Rm so ive gotta decide . .
lillysdaddy177 said:
I shall be receiving my SGS tomorrow morning Via Rm so ive gotta decide . .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is screen size a factor for you? The DHD is bigger, but then it doesn't have the best battery life.
DirkGently1 said:
Is screen size a factor for you? The DHD is bigger, but then it doesn't have the best battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is quite a large factor for me, as ive got pretty chunky fingers so would be benifitial but its only 3 cm's in int there?
.3" difference. Doesn't sound much but it's more than you think once you have it in your hands. (Ask any woman!)
DirkGently1 said:
.3" difference. Doesn't sound much but it's more than you think once you have it in your hands. (Ask any woman!)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lmao!!!
Any more reasons guys, I shall be putting The sgs on the market here tomorrow if
There is any one who wants it.Just need the cash really so any offers considered.
guys i have the option to get a new phone and im looking to get either the sensation for free or the one s. i just dont know if the one s is really worth the upgrade it or should i just stick with the sensation thats free till a better htc phone comes out?
im worried about development for the htc one s cause the sensation has a lot of support in this forum and a lot of roms and im scared the one s isnt gonna get as big as the sensation.. what are your takes?
thank you
The Sensation is a very good phone with great dev support. One of the most supported phones in the community. However, give the One S some time. I think dev support will come around. Hardware wise, the One S is definitely a nice upgrade. Some will complain about the pentile screen, but otherwise it is superior in every way (and I personally don't think the One S screen is worse than the Sensation's). The camera on the One S is far better, it has a screaming processor, more RAM, comes with Sense 4 stock, is thinner, lighter (but still well built) and has a faster data connection than the Sensation. The biggest drawbacks are non-removable battery and lack of SD card. I'd say the One S is the better choice.
Can't compare those two. Come on. One s of xouse
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
Hey all! My Incredible S just died on me and I've been offered a sensation for $200 to replace it. Is the sensation a good phone to switch to? I was wondering about things like battery life (sucked on inc s) and amount of roms available. Also how long do you think htc will be updating the sensation?
Thanks for any input you have!
It's an awesome phone.I believe we will see Jellybean 4.1 for the sensation around October maybe even earlier.and $200 is a good deal.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA
$200 isn't bad, I enjoy my sensation but would love to have the SGS III or the One X instead... we've pretty much reached our limit for updates so don't expect too much more from that. You're wanting to buy a phone a or year or so old... it's OLD now. Don't expect too much. Battery life is amazing for some such as myself. I can go 2 days (I also used to have an Incredible S -- You'll notice the awesome difference with resolution as well) without recharging using the new Sense 4 roms OR 3.6. I don't know what happened but in ICS my battery is incredible. I just hate the fact that I have a little bit of dust under screen... aside from that no complaints!
Ill be honest ..
Great phone great dev support worst battery life ever ! Simple as that...
However you can get an extended battery "anker" 1900mah it helps quite alot for 25$
Swyped From My Sensation.
thanks! it seems like your dev community is crazy active over here! Im thinking maybe I should just spend the money and get the s3
Woho, the S3 is a very good phone, but how much money can you spend?
Andrew_han said:
thanks! it seems like your dev community is crazy active over here! Im thinking maybe I should just spend the money and get the s3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our dev support is indeed crazy but things might start to slow down little bit later (hope not) if you can get the s3 and it fits your budget go ahead you won't regret it for sure!
Sent From My Sexy Sensation.
Andrew_han said:
thanks! it seems like your dev community is crazy active over here! Im thinking maybe I should just spend the money and get the s3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buying the S3 without a contract would be near triple what the Sensation will cost you. I'm not sure if that's worth it.
Hello people I am an owner of HTC Desire S and time has come to retire my phone and upgrade.
I am seriously considering getting the ONE S so I have a couple of question that you proud owners of it can probably answer.
1.Should I buy it even if I cant get the version with the S4 chip?
2.What are the major problems you have with the device?
Thanks in advance for you help
I just got my One S like about a week ago and I love the phone.
I have the S4 version and have not tested the S3 version. I would say even the S3 version, it should definitely be faster than the Desire S. While S3 is a little bit old, It maybe hard to tell unless you are extreme power user. I think in day to day use like browser, main interface, etc. the performance should not be much difference. I used to have rezound with the S3 chip and I cannot tell much difference. If you got one of the custom rom, then you would sure get hte best performance.
There is no major problem as far as I can tell. The form factor is really nice, so slim, yep hard to image after seeing so many htc phones are so bulky.
Don't get it if you can't get the s4 IMO. There are barely any devs for s3. You are paying the same price as s4 owner and getting an inferior product. I know s3 is fast but its still not an s4. If you are not planing on rooting your phone and running custom ROMs on it,then I think its OK to get s3.
Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2
tasos12 said:
Hello people I am an owner of HTC Desire S and time has come to retire my phone and upgrade.
I am seriously considering getting the ONE S so I have a couple of question that you proud owners of it can probably answer.
1.Should I buy it even if I cant get the version with the S4 chip?
2.What are the major problems you have with the device?
Thanks in advance for you help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should definitely get the s4 model it is faster and you will notice the difference if you go hard on the processor.:laugh:
Also as the lad said, there aren't that many devs for the s3 model. Meaning that you might not get some of the roms/tweaks availiable for the s4 version.
eddiemurphy said:
You should definitely get the s4 model it is faster and you will notice the difference if you go hard on the processor.:laugh:
Also as the lad said, there aren't that many devs for the s3 model. Meaning that you might not get some of the roms/tweaks availiable for the s4 version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As another person looking at getting this One S, how can I tell if it has the S4 when I'm in the T-mobile store with it in my hand? What other useful information can you more experienced One S users provide to help me make the best phone choice?
I have read some reviews stating there is a problem with maintaining signal or the phones drains the battery rapidly. What say you?
Bowmanspeer said:
As another person looking at getting this One S, how can I tell if it has the S4 when I'm in the T-mobile store with it in my hand? What other useful information can you more experienced One S users provide to help me make the best phone choice?
I have read some reviews stating there is a problem with maintaining signal or the phones drains the battery rapidly. What say you?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you in the u.s.? If so, all one s are s4 version.
No battery drain or signal problems here, except to the extent that tmobile has less coverage than att generally.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
I love my One S.
Yes, buy it. Fast, smooth, looks great. Had it for only a couple weeks but no problems. Running CM10 and it works great on this phone.
Do try at all costs to get the S4 though as it's the best processor out right now.
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
tasos12 said:
Hello people I am an owner of HTC Desire S and time has come to retire my phone and upgrade.
I am seriously considering getting the ONE S so I have a couple of question that you proud owners of it can probably answer.
1.Should I buy it even if I cant get the version with the S4 chip?
2.What are the major problems you have with the device?
Thanks in advance for you help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Speaking as someone who's just come directly from the Desire S I think you'll love it. The screen is so much brighter than the DS, bigger than the DS and it's so fast. The camera is fantastic in out door conditions especially. Some of the photos it takes you would honestly think were taken with a 12mp dedicated camera instead of a phone! Battery life is very good for a dual core phone as well. Lasts me on medium use about 1day 14 hours and 2days if I barely use it. My biggest problem with the device would be the pentile arrangement on the screen. You can see the pixels and the screen is very blueish. That being said after a couple weeks of using it you don't notice that at all and the screen becomes fantastic it's because your coming from a 3.7 inch s-lcd phone to with a very high resolution to a 4.3 inch super amoled display with a fairly good resolution so it takes a while to get used to. Go for it though, you won't be disappointed.
Am also thinking of buying it... Infact, am between 2 phones (htc sensation xe Or the one S)..
I watched a lot of videos for the one s, it looks great but am afraid only from the battery that can't be removed.. & was wandering if rooting the device is easy... One last thing also which is missing with my brain is the menu button.. i don't know how i will do in my life without it... i wonder if u guys get used to it or if it's not a big deal...
sorry for the posting big reply..
shaadd0w said:
Am also thinking of buying it... Infact, am between 2 phones (htc sensation xe Or the one S)..
I watched a lot of videos for the one s, it looks great but am afraid only from the battery that can't be removed.. & was wandering if rooting the device is easy... One last thing also which is missing with my brain is the menu button.. i don't know how i will do in my life without it... i wonder if u guys get used to it or if it's not a big deal...
sorry for the posting big reply..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One S is better.
1. You won't need to do a battery pull. Ever.
2. Rooting is easy, look at some tutorials in the developer section (DO NOT ASK QUESTIONS IN THAT SECTION!! EVER!)
3. Menu button in built into the software. If you root you can remap any keyto be the menu button.
Hope I helped.
Sent from my HTC One S running ViperOneS!
You help a lot bro, thank u... that cleared many things.
I'am going to buy it today.. but one last thing made me freak out a little.. which is the home screen seizure that happens to some of the users... just found it while roaming in a thread..
& since the phone am going to buy is black (international).. & it happens a lot for black ones... :/
That issue looks scary
Any ideas??
shaadd0w said:
You help a lot bro, thank u... that cleared many things.
I'am going to buy it today.. but one last thing made me freak out a little.. which is the home screen seizure that happens to some of the users...but just found it while roaming... & since the phone am going to buy is black (international).. That issue looks scary
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I have the T-Mobile version and it does not have it. I can't answer your question, sorry.
Also, press thanks if I helped
One S is only better if you get the S4 version.
Hunt3r.j2 said:
One S is only better if you get the S4 version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Eh?
It is still far better than a desire S even with the S3/adreno 220 and better than the XE (apart from storage options and you have removable batteries with them), excluding the GPU/CPU:
- far better camera overall, absolutely no contest between them
- way better build/perceived quality and IMO design/looks (subjective this)
- better screen overall (although some might prefer LCD on the XE and DS)
- battery life will still be better anyway
- more RAM
- much better audio
- newer device and will be getting jelly bean officially before the end of the year
- also another wee plus is that you will get more money when you sell the one S rather than the desire S and XE in a few months time or a year in order to fund for a new phone
Only reason to get the DS or XE is for a removable battery and SD slot and perhaps a better developing community (no idea what it is like for them)
Buy it, you won't regret it
shaadd0w said:
Am also thinking of buying it... Infact, am between 2 phones (htc sensation xe Or the one S)..
I watched a lot of videos for the one s, it looks great but am afraid only from the battery that can't be removed.. & was wandering if rooting the device is easy... One last thing also which is missing with my brain is the menu button.. i don't know how i will do in my life without it... i wonder if u guys get used to it or if it's not a big deal...
sorry for the posting big reply..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey man you don't need to worry about the battery. It's fairly simple to root you just need to unlock your boatloader with HTC dev and its easy from there. The recent apps Button can actually be mapped as a menu button! It's an actual stock feature and that's how I have my phone. You press recent apps for menu and hold for recent apps
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
I went to the store today.. & i saw it again ( the one S ) i was drooling on it there & about to buy it... but i didn't know how to know if it has s4 or s3 chip...i read about it that u can know it from the benchmarks.. but the shopkeeper don't allow to turn on the phone :/
i searched the whole white box there looking for a clue but the processor written on the box was (Dual core) only..
is there another way to know if it's s4 without turning the phone on..(e.g : maybe the color of the box of s4 or if there something specific..).
the one in the store is black international version... & thanks in advance for all of u guys..
am really looking forward to use this phone with my hands since am going to evolve from wildfire o:
Yes, the store you went have the s3.
s4 you will see duel core 1.5ghz.
Another way is the model name - z520e for the s4 and z560e for the s3.
pookipsy said:
Yes, the store you went have the s3.
s4 you will see duel core 1.5ghz.
Another way is the model name - z520e for the s4 and z560e for the s3.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry but where is the model name?
Good morning.
I owned a Samsung Wave S8500 for the last two years and a Nokia E6 (one of the best phones I ever had).
After two years I feel sad because my Wave has a great hardware, but Samsung abandoned it, and the applications are still few, so I was thinking to buy an Android.
I'm searching for a phone with these features:
-support from community for a long time with ICS, JB, KLP (I would like to keep this phone for at least 2-3 years).
-good battery performance (my E6 lasts at least 2 days with data always on, so I hope that the battery will last for 1,5 days)
-I don't want a huge phone like the GNexus\SIII
So, One S owners, do you think that this phone fits for me?
Are there enough optimized roms?
Thanks a lot
I'd avoid it for now as most versions are now using the S3 chip. The S4 chip is the better version. Although a good phone wait a few months new releases will push down prices of current models.
You'll have a good choice to choose from in the last quarter of the year.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
nikzDHD said:
I'd avoid it for now as most versions are now using the S3 chip. The S4 chip is the better version. Although a good phone wait a few months new releases will push down prices of current models.
You'll have a good choice to choose from in the last quarter of the year.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here in Italy most of the One S are S4, and I'd bought it used because I can find it at 330 euros.
I don't want to spend 500 euros for a phone. I'd like to spend at the most 350 euros...
It's a good phone, but if you get the One S with the 1.7 GHz S3 processor, you might as well go with a Sensation and S-OFF the device for many more custom ROMs.
You could kiss your awesome Nokia battery life days good bye. I was the same (coming from the E71 though).
Android is power hungry but if you dont use your phone alot you could get a MAX of 2 days (my own experience with the one s with wifi on but not data).
If you want long term rom development, I would go for the GS3. With HTC releasing the one s with different socs it only hurt development and we don't know if the s3 soc is going to be the way forward.
I truely miss my Nokia but I don't see myself going for Windows Phone soon.
Sent from my HTC One S
Hunt3r.j2 said:
It's a good phone, but if you get the One S with the 1.7 GHz S3 processor, you might as well go with a Sensation and S-OFF the device for many more custom ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd prefer to buy a recent phone, so I can keep it for at least 3 years. And as I said before, here in Italy most of used One S are S4.
Pheroh said:
You could kiss your awesome Nokia battery life days good bye. I was the same (coming from the E71 though).
Android is power hungry but if you dont use your phone alot you could get a MAX of 2 days (my own experience with the one s with wifi on but not data).
If you want long term rom development, I would go for the GS3. With HTC releasing the one s with different socs it only hurt development and we don't know if the s3 soc is going to be the way forward.
I truely miss my Nokia but I don't see myself going for Windows Phone soon.
Sent from my HTC One S
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The GSIII and GNexus are too big for me. I like phones thar are pocketable and the One S is so slim that fits perfectly in my pocket, while with the GSIII I can't lift my leg...
You could try whit razr maxx...same one s screen size and resolution, but triple battery life
Sent whit HTC ONE S
From what you have said there, the one S sounds like your best bet. It is kind of pointless buying any devices at the minute though as we should be getting a number of new nexus devices around November as well as a few other phones by HTC etc. but they will most likely cost £400+
The only other alternatives, although not as good overall, are the GS 2 and xperia S.
The developing community should be good and going strong for at least another year and still be some activity for another year. 3 years hard to say.... most people get a new phone every year or 2 and some every few months.
Even if you did get the S3 version, the one S is still good and better than most other phones, in real world usage the biggest impact would be the battery life.
As I replied in another thread comparing against the desire S and sensation XE, the same will apply when compared to the sensation and in some areas also against the GS 2 and xperia S etc., maybe just not as much of a difference in a few things i.e. the camera quality:
Terminator19 said:
Eh?
It is still far better than a desire S even with the S3/adreno 220 and better than the XE (apart from storage options and you have removable batteries with them), excluding the GPU/CPU:
- far better camera overall, absolutely no contest between them
- way better build/perceived quality and IMO design/looks (subjective this)
- better screen overall (although some might prefer LCD on the XE and DS)
- battery life will still be better anyway
- more RAM
- much better audio
- newer device and will be getting jelly bean officially before the end of the year
- also another wee plus is that you will get more money when you sell the one S rather than the desire S and XE in a few months time or a year in order to fund for a new phone
Only reason to get the DS or XE is for a removable battery and SD slot and perhaps a better developing community (no idea what it is like for them)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bada sucks, buy the One S!
Terminator19 said:
From what you have said there, the one S sounds like your best bet. It is kind of pointless buying any devices at the minute though as we should be getting a number of new nexus devices around November as well as a few other phones by HTC etc. but they will most likely cost £400+
The only other alternatives, although not as good overall, are the GS 2 and xperia S.
The developing community should be good and going strong for at least another year and still be some activity for another year. 3 years hard to say.... most people get a new phone every year or 2 and some every few months.
Even if you did get the S3 version, the one S is still good and better than most other phones, in real world usage the biggest impact would be the battery life.
As I replied in another thread comparing against the desire S and sensation XE, the same will apply when compared to the sensation and in some areas also against the GS 2 and xperia S etc., maybe just not as much of a difference in a few things i.e. the camera quality:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was looking at GSII and Xperia S too, but I'd like the One S much because:
It's more powerful than the, has more resolution and it's newer than the SII.
It's more thinner than the Xperia S (though I don't know which of these two is really better).
stragent said:
Bada sucks, buy the One S!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd prefer to say that Samsung sucks
Bada 2 years ago was a pretty decent and promising OS, but Samsung forgotten it.
And the Wave has still a pretty good hardware.
Alan Slade said:
I was looking at GSII and Xperia S too, but I'd like the One S much because:
It's more powerful than the, has more resolution and it's newer than the SII.
It's more thinner than the Xperia S (though I don't know which of these two is really better).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The XS isn't as powerful as the S4 one S either. The screen is 720P, although I personally think the overall quality of the screen regarding colours etc. is pretty poor (although that is just my opinion, most people love it). Battery life isn't great iirc. The camera is very good, better than the GS 2 iirc, although is it better than the one S overall, probably not, the 1080P capture will be better though. Essentially:
Pros of the S (S4 version):
- better camera overall
- much better CPU/GPU
- better build/perceived quality and IMO design/looks (subjective this)
- colours of the screen
- battery life
- better audio
- newer device and will be getting jelly bean officially before the end of the year
- IMO sense V4 is far better
Pros of XS:
- much much sharper screen
- better 1080P recording
- more internal storage
- NFC
- possibly getting JB, SE are very good with updates, however, they do take a long time to get them out
Terminator19 said:
The XS isn't as powerful as the S4 one S either. The screen is 720P, although I personally think the overall quality of the screen regarding colours etc. is pretty poor (although that is just my opinion, most people love it). Battery life isn't great iirc. The camera is very good, better than the GS 2 iirc, although is it better than the one S overall, probably not, the 1080P capture will be better though. Essentially:
Pros of the S (S4 version):
- better camera overall
- much better CPU/GPU
- better build/perceived quality and IMO design/looks (subjective this)
- colours of the screen
- battery life
- better audio
- newer device and will be getting jelly bean officially before the end of the year
- IMO sense V4 is far better
Pros of XS:
- much much sharper screen
- better 1080P recording
- more internal storage
- NFC
- possibly getting JB, SE are very good with updates, however, they do take a long time to get them out
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't need a good camera on the phone, because I'm a photographer
As I said that I prefer the One s on the XS and GSII, and your post tell me that I've chosen right
For the updates, I think I'll use one of the roms on this forum (but first I must understand hot to root, install a recovery and so on lol), like the ViperOneS etc. and not the stock rom.
I haven't rooted my S, so can't really advise but the guide here seems to be very good and rather easy to follow:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1583427
Terminator19 said:
I haven't rooted my S, so can't really advise but the guide here seems to be very good and rather easy to follow:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1583427
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When i bought my One S i used that tutorial to Root, install CWM and later Viper One S Rom. It's an amazing phone.
I'm not a fan of S3 version (overclock and battery don't go well together.) It's contact linking and sync capabilities i think they are better than GSIII. Fast and reliable and the tweaks make it even better.
Alan Slade said:
I was looking at GSII and Xperia S too, but I'd like the One S much because:
It's more powerful than the, has more resolution and it's newer than the SII.
It's more thinner than the Xperia S (though I don't know which of these two is really better).
I'd prefer to say that Samsung sucks
Bada 2 years ago was a pretty decent and promising OS, but Samsung forgotten it.
And the Wave has still a pretty good hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
I gave my wave to my gf as she does not use whatsapp. Pretty fine built phone, great hardware (even nowadays 1GHz single core 5 mpx cammera phones are launched) and smooth OS, but with no support.
Good evening to all.
Finally I decided to buy a One S. It will arrive on monday.
As I said before, this will be my first Android phone, so I don't know anything about flash, bootloader, roms, kernels and so on,
I would like to try the ViperOneS rom (because everybody seems happy with it), but I don't know how to install it.
Also, is the Fusion Ultimate kernel good\necessary? Are this rom and kernel stable so I can have a good experience with this One S without problems?
Where I can find a guide to find out how to do this properly thing without bricking my phone? :fingers-crossed:
Thanks
No one can help me?
Alan Slade said:
No one can help me?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey just check out this thread read the instruction thoroughly and you should be good to go http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1583427
Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2
Alan Slade said:
Good evening to all.
Finally I decided to buy a One S. It will arrive on monday.
As I said before, this will be my first Android phone, so I don't know anything about flash, bootloader, roms, kernels and so on,
I would like to try the ViperOneS rom (because everybody seems happy with it), but I don't know how to install it.
Also, is the Fusion Ultimate kernel good\necessary? Are this rom and kernel stable so I can have a good experience with this One S without problems?
Where I can find a guide to find out how to do this properly thing without bricking my phone? :fingers-crossed:
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if the kernel is good (I've never tried it), but it is not necessary to install it.
Sent from my HTC One S using xda app-developers app
if i was you i would wait for the next nexus
when i got the One S i thought the devs would just buy it immediately but for some reason they went after the stupid One X
( OmG quad COORE is faster than DUeL buy buy )
just wait for the next nexus and ull keep getting faster updates than anything else