Related
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
(edit) A wiki that's easier to edit and navigate, e.g., mediawiki, which would mean
More folks updating the wiki with the ability to edit subsections
More folks viewing the wiki with auto-created tables of contents
(edit)A single 'post your questions here' newbie thread to limit the amount of new threads created
(edit2)A thread or wiki entry linked at the top of every forum with proper forum etiquette.
(edit2) idea about restricting users according to post count removed
All of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
UPDATE 03-13-08
Thanks to Flar and the mods for pushing for new forums! Hopefully these changes, along with more member contributions, we will be able to fight back the redundant thread problem. I've noticed that quite a few senior members have taken a similar stance as I have with new users & redundant threads. I've been trying to either:
Giving the new user a search term (that we know will help), or
given the new user a way to navigate and use the resources here, mostly created by us to prevent users from asking questions in the first place, or
given the noob the links he wanted.
If you're genuinely interested in helping others, you'll realize that two of the three ways actually teach a person new things, which means they'll be better off on their own, while #3 only encourages them to ask more questions.
Finally, for all of you that may be new or have less post counts, it's not the amount of time you've been here reading, because that's not contributing back to the community. So my suggestion to you would be to come back and re-read this thread after you've contributed back to the forum by having at least 500+ genuinely helpful posts and see if you feel the same way.
And I don't mean suggestions to fix a soft key issue by bashing the keyboard with a screwdriver, like someone who has flamed this thread
_Alex_ said:
I'm really frustrated with this forum. I was about to become a lurker again and stop contributing, but I realized that this is not the solution.
Since the Kaiser forums are the most active forums on the entire site, we need some changes to make it better for all.
What I'd like to see done to help the situation is the following:
Restrict new threads to members (30 posts), forcing junior members to reply to existing threads. If new threads continue to be a problem, increase the limit to senior member status (100 posts).
More folks updating the wiki
actual comments for wiki updates so folks know what's new(I'm guilty of not doing this too) or an actual what's new page.
Both of these suggestions will make this site more manageable and usable for all.
If you have any ideas, comments or opinions for or against, or just want to add to the list of suggestions, I look forward to them.
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Click to collapse
I couldn't agree more. A big part of the problem is the refusal of some to read or search before posting. When they don't get an immediate answer in an existing thread they start a new one. Maybe the answer is to allow the number of daily posts to be restricted by member status, with senior members being unresticted and moving downward from there.
To bad you can't put all of the threads inside the new sticky. That way, to post a new thread, you had to go thru the new sticky. Other than that, the only option I can think of is to hunt the redundant thread poster down and dismember them slowly on live t.v. broadcasted only to XDA members.
Edit:
I personally vote for my second option.
Agree with both suggestions. Mods...any comments? I have not dealt with forum software before...are those restrictions able to be implemented with this forum?
I've always liked the idea of limiting new people from starting threads, but I don't think we can judge on number of posts. I think this will just end with people joining, throwing an extra 30 useless posts into the first threads they come across, then posting their question thread.
I've always liked the idea of making someone wait 24 hours between registering and posting AT ALL. This way, we can still help those people with a genuine problem fairly quickly (rather than making them wait a week) but still weed out those who ask questions that could be answered by 2 seconds of thinking or looking.
Just my 2 cents!
Great suggestions _Alex_. There should be a stew time for new forum members. A 30 post limit should do it because by then one should have learned a little bit at least.
And now that there's a Google search box near the top of the page HOPEFULLY that cuts down on redundant new post.
@kwickone - Yes, it's possible and quite easy at that.
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
Perhaps a rethinking........................................
Okay, this is a common problem on here. Over and over -- endless threads on this subject. It cannot be solved with current technology.
Embrace the problem.
Sandwich method:
Commend them on their new purchase of the new phone they got. Great!
Then advise them to search. Read and learn.
Then Commend their enthusiasm for Any effort they show.
...
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
This forum has turned into a user manual / tech support.
sd73ta said:
maybe there should be a noob section like hofo has for banned members. and you have to wait a while before you can post in the regular threads. then wait even longer before you can start a new thread.
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There already is a noob section...the problem is no one reads it!
I waited 3 months before my 1st post or flash. I shadowed the threads, followed the chefs at that time (Faria, Molski, Xelencin, Risidoro) and watched the results of people flashing their ROMs. I waited till all was clear before I flashed.
Nowadays, people are buying expensive devices and just jumping into deep water without knowing how to swim and the cry to the lifeguard for help.
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
dwny said:
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
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This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
Maybe it is an idea to have it a bit like the "Facepunch forum" of GMOD. (for non gamer, it a HL2 mod forum) They had exactly the same problem only a little bit bigger then it is on this forum.
They solved it by some sort of rate system. Forum users can rate a post. If a user get a certain amount of negative points he is banned from the forum for 24 or something like that. You can also rate someone if he makes clever remarks or usefull contributions and rate him with a "thanks!"
This way people know they are being watched for stupid questions that are posted over and over again and search before they do something stupid. After all, saying stupid thing will cost you a time ban.
If you want to know exactly how it works. Register at the facepunch forum to check it out. It really does work. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/
Shadowdh said:
Would there be any way to link keywords to threads that already exist before its posted... eg if I started a thread re "no sound help me I dont read"... before it posted a list of threads that exist already would pop up saying something like have you looked at these...? perhaps wikis could be linked in the same way... or is this not possible...? cheers
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Click to collapse
Even from my rudimentary knowledge of PHP based forums such as XDA, that would be extremely prohibitive in terms of processing power. Context-sensitive searching (even cached) is very resource intensive, and even implementing it on the Kaiser section ONLY would probably bring the boards to an impressive crawl.
Have a 1 month waiting period before being able to post & 3 months before before starting a new thread.
Just my thoughts....It has gotton out of control.
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This seems a bit extreme. I bought my Kaiser and spent two or three days reading the wiki, boards, and specific threads about the Tilt. Still, I had a few questions that weren't addressed by existing threads and needed to start at thread. I agree with Alex's idea that there should be a delay (or post count check) for starting a new THREAD, but certainly not posting in general.
Likewise, I'm beginning to toy with cooking my own ROMs, and what if I was interested in starting my own thread to announce its availability? Certainly I shouldn't be required to append it to an existing (and likely unrelated) thread?
To the OP's original concern, I don't think it's a terribly unique thing to XDA. I frequent many forums, and it happens everywhere, particularly those which address technology or relationships. Everyone seems to think that their issues are unique and that they won't be covered in an existing topic. Likewise, many people just aren't comfortable with reading technical specifications, instructions, or explanations. I have dozens of friends capable of READING manuals for the devices they own and getting exactly what they need, but they don't trust the accuracy of the information unless I tell it to them myself.
Reading a bunch of instructions and trusting they are accurate is much scarier than having someone explain it to you, even if they're just regurgitating information already contained in dozens of wikis, texts or posts. This is the primary reason we have TEACHERS; most people are capable of reading everything they need to know, but prefer to have someone relate it to them in a way which caters to their understanding.
Long-winded thoughts aside, I agree with Alex's suggestions in their entirety.
i dont agree with the whole 30 or 100 postsbefore starting a tread but i do agree with the fact that it's annoying to read the same stuff over and over again people comming in with the same problems and questions but there are also people like myself that are longtime members but actually do read alot of posts so that they dont need to ask anything and dont make the 100 or so recommended post before starting a new tread..
but thats my opinion
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help.
Assuming I actually did search for my answer and wasn't able to find anything, where would I turn? If I can't start a new thread, I would have no choice but to hijack a different thread. That would probably upset the people involved in that thread more than creating a new thread that they could easily ignore.
How about the new thread button routing through search? So that when you entered the title, it did the search, and at the bottom of the search results there was the button that actually started a new thread.
Steal Google's Idea
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site.
?????
...
Jewcookie said:
This is not very userfriendly for people who do search before posting. Considering not every new user who joins the forum is a "lazy" noob.
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It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
tdsuen said:
I don't see how not being able to start a new thread will help
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Click to collapse
That's where the problem lies.
How many new issues are there actually? Most of the issues are when people have a problem with a specific ROM. What's been happening lately is that the Rom threads are huge now and to gain attention to their inquiry, people are starting new threads. If you take a look at who's doing this, it's members under 3 months
(Just my opinion & observation)
zcink said:
Okay, How bout this:
When you open www.xda-developers.com you get this:
A Huge Search Box. Nothing else. You Have to go thru the search box to Even access this site. ?????
Okay still Drunk at the time.
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LOL... It's great to see a drunk guy contributing to this thread as it adds a touch of humor to the entire situation
FWIW, one of the new members decided to post their opinion about our frustration venting over in the regular Kaiser forum (which I read very infrequently because I know that's going to be filled with support requests).
I'm wondering how many new users will chime in on that thread...
arrogance and elitism (were all here for the same thing)
Why not add a few more Mod's and just delete them (threads or posts) quick and easy? Have an automated response to the person that: "the answers you needed were already posted in another thread".
dwny said:
It's a matter of setting standards....there are none here!
If you know what the rules are, then you'll follow them....but you have to have rules 1st.
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Click to collapse
I totally agree that there needs to be some forum etiquette that needs to be followed, especially regarding new threads. The question is how we go about enforcing it...
Hopefully the mods/admin will read this thread and take our suggestions to heart.
Sober
Okay
A totally Sane -- Sober guy -- was just joking bout the drunk part.
A Huge Search Engine
You have to go thru the search Engine box to enter this site.
You can't miss.
Anyone who does not search will be Shot On site and put into the Ovens!
Hi there,
I have been reaidng this thread since I bougth my HTC touch and it has been great help.
Before I start talkign about the issues I would like to thank everyone in here for all the hard work towards the community and all the work done by the moderators to make sure the forum is a clean and easy place to navigate in.
now on the issues .
I noticed lately that since a few users got promoted to moderator all I see is padlocks on half of the threads.
I am not against closing threads that already have an answer in the forum "by providing a link if possible" but it is more about closing the normal questions.
I have seen many threads benig closed straight away at the first answer and not giving anyone here the chance to add something or give an alternative answer or even say that the answer did not work????
The second behaviour I notcied was replying to a post froma moderator by actually editing the post itself and adding an answer on the bottom of it rather than replying like everyone else.
I would like to read other users opinion about this and have a great day.
i don't think there is anything wrong with closing the unnecessary threads. most of the threads which were closed were related to someone flashing a wrong ROM on his elf/elfin or not using the correct USPL. there are already a few threads for these kind of issues, so why create new threads? it has been said many times to reply in the existing threads, but most of the people don't follow this. i've,personally, tried to help of those people stuck with these kind of problems even though i could have told them to read. and once their problem is solved, there is no need for such type of NEW threads, so mods chose to close them.
as far as editing the posts, i think mods are only trying to help us to keep the forums as clean as possible so that a new user can read only the most relevant information without having to read 10-15 pages.
Although Aman (htctouchp, another dedicated-to-XDA & talented member) has explained to you about the policy followed especially in Elf forums, I would like to elaborate on a few things though
I presume you were refering to my posts
I agree with what you feeling brother. Even I used to feel the same when I had just started on XDA. I used to open new threads asking questions or trying to take guidance from the experts here, forgetting that some day I will have to take the responsibility of ensuring that the forum remains clean
Talking about clean thread, we dont close or delete threads because we despise new members (whom I dont prefer to refer as *Noobs*) (definately not that we do) but because we want everyone to reach the relevant informative easily without having to go through 150 pages of the forum. This Elf / ElfIn forums are being moderated largely by me and Noonski (although he is currently busy cooking wonderful ROMs and buying new shoes )
Also at the same time if you have observed, the threads are closed and left in the forum (not deleted) because somewhere a link to answer for the question which is asked is posted in that thread or some information has been provided by certain member. The thread is closed after this to avoid further crowding in that thread and the new members having to go through more pages trying to find the answers they seek and finally opening a new thread again for the same question
Same reason why a post is edited so when a new member views the thread, he can find the question with the answer itself
Hope I have been clear in communicating the reasons and we all do appreciate the fact that dedicated members like yourself do come here on XDA to find answers and guidance from the experts
Now I will close this thread once you are through reading this (I'm kidding) But I would certainly edit the subject of the thread to something moderate that will surely make members come in and post their views
Well i think you have a valid point.
But if you know the usual behaviour of most users it's laziness.
I can only say that when i start a thread to do Data Collection and compression it only leaves an easier to read thread.
This has only happened on one thread where it was mentioned in the first post.
Yes it can be seen as misuse of power which it isn't.
A user can always reedit his or her post, and no one has done so.
Truth is that i would not be able to if i was not a mod there would not be a way to get a compact and information related thread, so that does make it a very valid point you make.
But a user does get the immediate answer to the question instead of getting it posts after that. I then try to delete only my own posts.
All i'm doing is try to make a thread as easy as possible to read instead of going through pages and not seeing the answer, then ask about it and get the answer that it has already been handled in the thread.
I could go back to the answer 4 questions in one post, but long posts also have the effect that people don't want to read them.
This is definetly worth the discussion.
But a viewpoint most not be forgotten that it is mainly been done to make things easier.
It's long threads that make users start new threads about the same thing.
See? This is the reason why we would want the forums to be clean. This is already discussed in the stickies just above their new threads (which are gonna see the padlocks soon)
htc update
6.1
Elf0100: cid=00 > ruu:error294
How to remove the bottom bar in today screen?
NEED HELP
I agree with the mods, but I do fell some kind or something is missing. maybe I'm not an average user, but I do enjoy reading 15-20 pages of information, searching something like crazy is my second hobby. Sometimes laugh or mad if peoples asking question that already known. To sum up , when i was a noob.... (I'm proud to say that, cause now I'm half NOOB ) I learn a lot by reading pageS to pageS, I like this forum alot by clicking that seach button many2 times
Hi everyone,
Thanks fot he replies and I need to mention something.
I think the forum is a lot cleaner and easier to read since the cleaning started and I agree with probabaly "and this is personal opinion obviously" with %95 of the thraeds closed especially when the answer exists and is easy to find.
Ah...I forgot to say thanks for the mod that renamed my thread as it reflects more what I wanted to talk about and get users involced in.
Basically my main point is more about having different opinions and views on the subet especially when a person comes along and ask how to fix a certain issue then the post should be left open even if the answer has been provided as the same thread might revive after a year or more where another person would look for the answer - find it - and then it probably won't work due to obscur reasons or probably just because it is a newer build - then the person will just post on that same thread rather than open a new one.
By the way ababrekar I did not refer to you at all in what I said and I generally don't read who edited or closed what.
I used to be a mod myself in a similar forum "tech oriented" and I know it is not easy task and you are not paid for what you do so again thank you for all you do to the community.
I will stop here for the moment and wait and see what other members think about this - there arn't many interested in this
K.
Not many interested parties to keep this thread alive
Kar brother, can I close this thread now? You advice
ababrekar said:
Not many interested parties to keep this thread alive
Kar brother, can I close this thread now? You advice
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Click to collapse
No keep it alive definitly.
You know that not everyone goes to page two or three of the forum, and it needed a little bump.
It gives people a good platform to express themselves in the good way that kar did.
But maybe kar is a sister? (no pun intended)
Noonski said:
No keep it alive definitly.
You know that not everyone goes to page two or three of the forum, and it needed a little bump.
It gives people a good platform to express themselves in the good way that kar did.
But maybe kar is a sister? (no pun intended)
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Click to collapse
Just posted something that makes the thread come back to page 1 Even I'm not intending to close this one. First I thought it would create fights but turned out interesting thread
Kar200 is definately a borther ... otherwise if you want to close this post I don't see any problem with this and I thought more people probably would have expressed their thoughts about the question but apparently everyone "including me" is more interested in knowing what new rom has been cooked for them so they can try it .
i have kept a close look on this thread for a while. and my opinion is this thread be kept for sometime. not much has been expressed here by other members. but i see this is one of a kind thread in the elf forum. and it gives an opportunity to express concern and at the same time to show appreciation.
thankx kar200 and all others in this thread. lets work out any concerns we have over the elf forum in this single thread
To post or not to post?
While i do agree, that the forum needs to be clean and its users repsecting the rules etc.... human nature as Noonski pointed out is laziness! so there will always be threads being opened. I think that most junior members will fall into this catergory (and this is NOT a dig at them but merely an observation ) but can be to a certain degree understandable/acceptable. Would you agree? If, however this is done by people who have been around for some time, then by all means close the thread and flame the user - they should know better.
As a thought, maybe some guidlines from the Mods here (Ameet and Noonski) re how long a 'repeated' thread will be kept open?
From a personal perspective, i have never needed to open a thread or even post that often specifically because i have always found what i needed from reading.... (which i kinda enjoy silly me)
I think for someone new to the scene and first coming here, it can be quite overwhelming. There is tons of information available, but where do you start? So from that perspective I can understand why someone would start a new thread. On the other hand, looking at myself when I first came here... all I did was dig through the piles of information just reading, not looking for something specific but just gathering as much info on any subject as I could.
As for the thread closing and modifying posts. The closing of threads depends on whats going on in the thread. Closing a thread on the first available answer can leave some users without a clue because the given answer wont work for them, and the cant reply on the thread to continue asking. Which can be a missed opportunity to add more useful data to the forums if someone has a different solution to the problem.
Modding the answer into the posters question can lead to some confusion if you ask me Only a mod has the uberpower to edit a users post, so if there is a mod nearby that had a good comment you have to look at your own posts, but you also have to look at the end of the thread to see if someone posted usefulness in case your post was not modified (hihi MODified ).
Biffert said:
I think for someone new to the scene and first coming here, it can be quite overwhelming. There is tons of information available, but where do you start? So from that perspective I can understand why someone would start a new thread. On the other hand, looking at myself when I first came here... all I did was dig through the piles of information just reading, not looking for something specific but just gathering as much info on any subject as I could.
As for the thread closing and modifying posts. The closing of threads depends on whats going on in the thread. Closing a thread on the first available answer can leave some users without a clue because the given answer wont work for them, and the cant reply on the thread to continue asking. Which can be a missed opportunity to add more useful data to the forums if someone has a different solution to the problem.
Modding the answer into the posters question can lead to some confusion if you ask me Only a mod has the uberpower to edit a users post, so if there is a mod nearby that had a good comment you have to look at your own posts, but you also have to look at the end of the thread to see if someone posted usefulness in case your post was not modified (hihi MODified ).
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I Am Cornelio, Need Dippy For My BungHole.
Where you been Biffert, enjoyed your vacation?
This has only happened on a specific Beta Thread
Noonski said:
I Am Cornelio, Need Dippy For My BungHole.
Where you been Biffert, enjoyed your vacation?
This has only happened on a specific Beta Thread
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I know, but it was more of a big picture perspective on the matter Ive been reading the thread as well and saw the request for some opinions so I thought, why not
Biffert said:
I know, but it was more of a big picture perspective on the matter Ive been reading the thread as well and saw the request for some opinions so I thought, why not
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I'm just to excited because i just ordered My Pro.
Gotta run Print and sign the contract.
But still Where you been?
Do tell or i'll fill it in myself
Noonski said:
I'm just to excited because i just ordered My Pro.
Gotta run Print and sign the contract.
But still Where you been?
Do tell or i'll fill it in myself
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Click to collapse
Ive been finishing school and landed a job as a software engineer/consultant (And vacation ofcourse - Poland and Tsjech republic)
No Pro for me yet, still playing with my Touch (cant wait for the new Surface btw) and Kaiser
So its all good here
Edit: Bit of topic here, sorry bout that.
trashing threads too early create confusion!!!
Biffert said:
I think for someone new to the scene and first coming here, it can be quite overwhelming. There is tons of information available, but where do you start? So from that perspective I can understand why someone would start a new thread. On the other hand, looking at myself when I first came here... all I did was dig through the piles of information just reading, not looking for something specific but just gathering as much info on any subject as I could.
As for the thread closing and modifying posts. The closing of threads depends on whats going on in the thread. Closing a thread on the first available answer can leave some users without a clue because the given answer wont work for them, and the cant reply on the thread to continue asking. Which can be a missed opportunity to add more useful data to the forums if someone has a different solution to the problem.
Modding the answer into the posters question can lead to some confusion if you ask me Only a mod has the uberpower to edit a users post, so if there is a mod nearby that had a good comment you have to look at your own posts, but you also have to look at the end of the thread to see if someone posted usefulness in case your post was not modified (hihi MODified ).
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EXACTLY!
even if an answer has been already given...a thread shudnt be closed so early. cos the user has to check and then give feedback on whether it has worked or not.
i respect the work of the mods...but somehow i cant fully support the idea of kabooming threads when a single answer or a re-directing link to an answer has been given. also note that, a new user tries to follow the thread he has created and which HAS the answers given mainly by other members....so when the user looks back...the help given or the helpful posts made in that thread is also missing. this creates confusion. and the end result....new threads too. at a point where closing a thread is justified is okay...but trashing a thread...wud and WILL only create confusion and misleading guidance. I hope this sentence is fully understood and looked into.
So, in my opinion, this does hinder what we are ALL here to do. To help out so called noobs!!!! This is finally what made me speak out here, cos i have witnessed a few cases, where some users has been lost into the advent of search button!
WHEW! Finally i hope i have shed some light on this debate too.
respect and peace to all members!
ayyu3m said:
EXACTLY!
even if an answer has been already given...a thread shudnt be closed so early. cos the user has to check and then give feedback on whether it has worked or not.
i respect the work of the mods...but somehow i cant fully support the idea of kabooming threads when a single answer or a re-directing link to an answer has been given. also note that, a new user tries to follow the thread he has created and which HAS the answers given mainly by other members....so when the user looks back...the help given or the helpful posts made in that thread is also missing. this creates confusion. and the end result....new threads too. at a point where closing a thread is justified is okay...but trashing a thread...wud and WILL only create confusion and misleading guidance. I hope this sentence is fully understood and looked into.
So, in my opinion, this does hinder what we are ALL here to do. To help out so called noobs!!!! This is finally what made me speak out here, cos i have witnessed a few cases, where some users has been lost into the advent of search button!
WHEW! Finally i hope i have shed some light on this debate too.
respect and peace to all members!
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This definitely goes for the Elf Rom Development thread now.
It's already good and cleaned.
I did notice that i do carry over the policy from a few other threads.
I'm all over the place, and at development a thread is fairly quickly moved if it does not belong there.
You should see how many reported posts come into my mailinbox.
The funny thing is that actually the hardcore cleaning stopped, just at the moment this thread got started.
So it now mostly is focused on going through old threads and going through their importance.
So for a while (and still) we have to be very straight forward.
Just look at the Diamond Forum with 845 Threads, and it's only been out for a short while. So over there there really is a now mercy policy that most mods agree on at the moment.
So the policy used there does not apply to the touch thread (not by a long shot).
A you can imagine how easily you start applying these rules.
I heard one user say "It's not a democracy here" in defense of the mods.
Truth is that it is a bit grayish on that matter, Most reported posts are submitted by users. (not the matter in ELF Forums).
So i can say that in the case of ELF forum i'll be mostly going through the very old posts and do some data compression if need be.
Could the posts in "Raphael Questions & Answers Here" be mini threads themselves?
I was just wondering about this after reading yet another post from a member about how difficult it could be to trace the thread once it is moved into the big thread, mostly because it would not have all the answers for that particular thread, well, threaded, to the original post anymore. Although the moderators might have contemplated this, but is it possible to have some sort of threading for each post within the big single thread? Maybe something like the threaded SMS feature for the Fuze? I hope this thread stays as a single thread itself , so someone wondering about the same thing I am, knows why things are the way they are. Thanks.
An even better idea would be to create a Raphael Questions and Answers Sub-Forum where people could start threads to ask questions and then keep it as an archive where you can go to find the answer to any question.
new system doesn't work
I totally agree with incisivekeith:
The single-thread Q&A system and the displacer-mods are killing active and concentrated conversations over the issues by forcing it into a chaotic messy HOLY THREAD. This undermines the entire point to exist of the forum
I know I'm missing out on a decent amount of information because I don't even check that thread. It's an absolute mess. Even if I see a new thread that I might want to read that gets moved to that Q&A, I don't even bother. What a waste.
Kevin
Yes, the mods and admins are trying to figure out better ways to organize it but for right now i think it is decided that they will just have one huge thread of all questions and answers because there are way too many threads coming up with simple questions and they want to try and keep things more clean and organized on forums.
If you think its a bad idea take a look into the kaiser section and see how much crap is there. What the mods are doing is a GOOD start to keep the forum clean.
In addition, most of the people that are complaining are the ones that have only been here for a couple months, therefore they have no idea what everyone has been through in the past year and even longer. You (no disrespect) new users here must realize that this has been our home for a long time, there is a certain level of respect and rules that many of us wish would be followed. Those rules are not being followed, so this is a good solution for a problem that has been going on for a while.
ptyindian said:
Yes, the mods and admins are trying to figure out better ways to organize it but for right now i think it is decided that they will just have one huge thread of all questions and answers because there are way too many threads coming up with simple questions and they want to try and keep things more clean and organized on forums.
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Yeah well having one huge thread isn't exactly clean... It makes it terribly hard to find ANYTHING. They can call it the Questions & Answers Thread but that's just a poor way of trying to address a very large issue.
1. People are going to start a thread asking for help.
2. The moderators will merge that thread with ALL THE OTHER threads of people asking questions.
3. Now that person who was asking a question before will go back to their thread and see it was merged with that HUGE questions and answers thread and never be able to find their question or the potential answer...
Result of all of this?
They're going to start a new thread asking their question over and over again until they eventually get frustrated and give up, possibly driving them off... That's never a good way to run a site...
WE NEED A dedicated "Questions & Answers" SUB-FORUM within every major device's main forum. This will provide a place for people to ask their questions, get their answers, and move on. It will also provide the users with the ability to have those mini-discussions without having to worry about the moderators taking their thread and moving it to that giant mess you all call the questions and answers thread.
Just my 2 cents...
Hey yeah i totally understand what you are feeling. I brought the same exact point up in a thread here and here was the response by a mod. They are trying to figure things out too and in order to get a Q&A subforum they have to go through different things and get permissions and stuff like that and it apparently is not that easy.I understand what you are saying but for right now that is what the mods and admins decided was the best thing to do and this is only a trial from what i understand it is not permanent. They just wanted to see how it is going to work.
ptyindian said:
Hey yeah i totally understand what you are feeling. I brought the same exact point up in a thread here and here was the response by a mod. They are trying to figure things out too and in order to get a Q&A subforum they have to go through different things and get permissions and stuff like that and it apparently is not that easy.I understand what you are saying but for right now that is what the mods and admins decided was the best thing to do and this is only a trial from what i understand it is not permanent. They just wanted to see how it is going to work.
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Yeah I hope they figure this out sooner than later because I know that if I was the one asking a question only to come back a few hours later to find out that my post is now lost in that thread I wouldn't even waste my time trying to find the post let alone the answer...
People are gonna start getting discouraged and maybe that's their goal... Idk... I hope not but that's what's going to happen. People are gonna ask their question and then it's gonna be lost in that thread and they're never gonna find the answer IF someone actually reads through the thread enough to actually answer it.
I have to make this clear - my intention to begin this thread. It is certainly not to question the policy of the moderators of merging the questions in one big thread, because as KD8DNS said, people (new users) often open a thread for anything and everything, most of the times, without researching for the issue. I am highly technically inclined, but I could be considered a "new user" myself, not unfamiliar with the whole smart phone thing as I had a Nokia smart phone before the Fuze, but new to the Windows Mobile platform, and boy I have learned in the past couple of weeks alone.
I posted the following in response to a post in the big thread, which brought into light the lack of convenience in searching for a solution in the big thread:
"I had that line of thinking for a while, so I won't say you are saying something that is unreasonable. But, if it makes you feel a little better, maybe you can try for the keywords for that thread/post by using the "Search this Thread" menu at the top of any thread. Even with that, you will not have a thread that would have all the answers for that one issue in one thread, I agree, but maybe this huge thread is required, as there are/were so many threads for issues that have already been discussed or could really be answered in a big thread like this."
So, as I said, I most certainly understand the reason due to which the moderators decided to merge many threads. Having said that, and also considering there are certain rules, all I was opening for discussion, was whether there was a way to have mini threads within that thread or some alternate solution or not, which would not only reduce the maintenance and clumsiness of many threads for already discussed issues, but also be efficient in providing information to new users, for some of whom, frankly, this forum could be their first ever forum. That was the point I was wanting to discuss, and, I am reiterating the purpose of this thread, which is not to question any policies, but to just discuss an alternative. Thanks.
Okay, since i'm the moderator being discussed i figured i should weigh in on the matter.
First, if you have an issue with anything that i do, feel free to PM me. I cannot promise that i'll change my mind about any of my decisions, but i will certainly listen to your point of view.
Second, a couple users were correct in saying MOST of the posts that I merge are redundant questions posted by people who don't know how to search or special issues that aren't going to apply to many people.
Finally, if there are several posts that you think would be beneficial to be posted as a separate thread for discussion about a significant issue then send me list of links to the posts you'd like to have merged into a separate thread, and I can pull all the posts together and put them in a new thread. It will just save me a lot of time if i don't have to look around for them, and increase the likelihood i will get to it sooner.
That's about it. I'll leave this open for a few to see if anyone has something useful to be gleaned, but to be honest, if it turns into people complaining because they don't like the Q & A thread then i'll probably just close it.
darfri said:
I totally agree with incisivekeith:
The single-thread Q&A system and the displacer-mods are killing active and concentrated conversations over the issues by forcing it into a chaotic messy HOLY THREAD. This undermines the entire point to exist of the forum
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You obviously don't know what the point of the forum is. The Q&A people have very little to do with development, which is, in fact, actually the point of the forum.
dharvey4651 said:
They're going to start a new thread asking their question over and over again until they eventually get frustrated and give up, possibly driving them off... That's never a good way to run a site...
WE NEED A dedicated "Questions & Answers" SUB-FORUM within every major device's main forum.
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This site has never been about being tech support to people not really interested in learning, so most of the users who would be discouraged that easily probably aren't users that were gonna stick around and contribute a lot anyway. That being said, right now the option is either to merge most of the new threads OR to delete them, because they're VERY redundant. I don't think anyone wants me to delete them, so for now i 'm doing the best we can. Right now it's been only a little over a week that we've been doing this. In that time there have been HUNDREDS of threads created in ONE subforum alone. We are working on reshaping a rapidly changing culture around here. If we swing too far toward the casual user we will lose our developers, but we don't want to completely ignore them. So have patience, offer constructive advice.
Thank you scotchua for being kind to offer a PM helpdesk... but I am afraid that you might get flooded with questions if you offer your help too graciously.
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone. We have a search option here. I understand that this is a development oriented forum BUT isn't an "end users" expression/opinion/frustration/rapture an important value?
I'd see a per-device Q&A subforum as a very good idea. You'll see that this subforum will be the most active. xda-dev is very good site and it should also remain flexible. I'm sorry that I am not a developer and don't have those skills. It might sound silly but "children" like me and other non-developers think different than hi-tech-development-geniuses and might point to problems that are more dysfunctional in practice than the ones that superbrains notice.
Actually I have stopped initiating my thoughts/worries here because of that new filter
darfri said:
Thank you scotchua for being kind to offer a PM helpdesk... but I am afraid that you might get flooded with questions if you offer your help too graciously.
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone. We have a search option here. I understand that this is a development oriented forum BUT isn't an "end users" expression/opinion/frustration/rapture an important value?
I'd see a per-device Q&A subforum as a very good idea. You'll see that this subforum will be the most active. xda-dev is very good site and it should also remain flexible. I'm sorry that I am not a developer and don't have those skills. It might sound silly but "children" like me and other non-developers think different than hi-tech-development-geniuses and might point to problems that are more dysfunctional in practice than the ones that superbrains notice.
Actually I have stopped initiating my thoughts/worries here because of that new filter
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First, I never offered to be a one man help desk cause you're right, there is no way i'd have the time, haha. What I did say is that people who have questions about WHY i did something should feel free to ask me, BEFORE they start complaining about it publically. The reality is that there is no way to make everyone happy. I have people who PM me saying they think what I'm doing is great, some who say that i'm not doing enough, some who hate it and think i'm ruining the forum, and some who disagree with it but understand....the site is huge and there are differing opinions.
I don't want anyone to be offended, but the reality is that not all opinions are of equal value to me, and accordingly, while i will gladly listen to ANY user, certain users or groups of users will have more pull because of their length of time here, my perceived quality of their ideas, or because of their contributions. Some may think this unfair, but then someone always does, and at least I am transparent about which factors i value most.
As I have said several times, a Q&A Sub-Forum could maybe be possible, however, it's really barely been a week with this Q&A thread and sometimes these things take time to develop. I really do think that the 20 new threads started every day take a lot away from the sub-forum as they push the actually valueable threads down to the second and third page most of the time. My preference honestly would be to delete every thread started and PM each user to post their questions in the Q&A thread instead. Then if people would use the quote feature it would be much easier to follow a conversation related to your question. Unfortunately, upon discussion with some other users it was determined that it might be a bit of a "heavy-handed" approach at this point.
The simple reality is that the rules are clearly posted everywhere, and if people would read them, then this whole issue would be moot. I personally don't even think it would be unfair to administer a short ban for people so blatantly disregarding the rules; however, at this point it has been deemed an excessive remedy to the issue. The reality is that MOSt of the threads being started are about self-inflicted issues, created by users who don't search or read...so while I have sympathy and am happy to help them, my sympathy runs short when they start complaining because it's hard to read 3-4 pages of posts a day to find their answer. If only any of those whining about this knew how much each mods personal time is devoted to sorting through everyone else's posts they'd certainly quit whining so much about having to spend a few minutes to find a solution.
First, I have to tell you that XDA-Developers is my most valuable web site for WM support. And I understand the original intent of this site as a site for developers and your desire to protect its intent. But success breeds success and in part it is because of the value of the information here that new/basic users are attracted to this site. If that is really what you don't want, point those users and questions to a different site and let us know where to go. I have downloaded and used the custom roms prepared for the Tilt and if I keep the Fuze, I intend to do the same. But I also just received my
Fuze and have very basic questions which have ben relegated to a post that will make finding a response difficult.
With that said, I don't think that your intent is to chase people away. After all, the added user base does give your site greater authority, if that is of value to you. But confining basic questions to a single thread takes away from the usefulness of a site such as this for those users. So, a hopefully constructive suggestion. Consider implementing the sub forum for questions and answers. If you don't want to monitor it yourself or have a developer do that, query some of your more valuable posters to see if they will perform that function. I am sure that some posters are not developers and would be willing to support that function. It costs nothing to ask. This would keep new users here. After all, many new users grow and eventually can add to the usefulness of the community as a whole.
Just a thought.
ourtech said:
But confining basic questions to a single thread takes away from the usefulness of a site such as this for those users.
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I have highlighted the key term in bold. The problem we're facing is that most users are thinking individually. What is best for THEM when THEY are looking for ONE piece of info. I am really trying to think what is best for the site as a whole, and in my opinion having 30 new threads a day in just this one section is not what is best for people who are actually trying to find valuable resources. We had the same problem with the Development & Hacking section until we really cracked down on random thread posting in the wrong place, and created the Question & Answers section.
I know that people are frustrated that we only have one thread for their questions and answers, but the simple fact is that there are only 4 or 5 pages being added each day, so if you asked a question it really isn't that hard to see if it's being answered, which most of them are. I do agree that a sub-forum might be a possible solution to the problem, but even then people are still not going to even bother reading the rules.
Here's where my main objection comes in, and i sincerely hope that people understand me on this. It is fairly offensive to me for people to tell me it's too much work to read 4 pages in the Q&A thread, which i spend 10 times as much time cleaning up, helping users, and settling petty arguments between childish users on the forum every day. So you'll understand why i see the problem as being larger than just a little inconvenience for a few users wanting to ask simple questions. Most users don't even bother to post in the thread titled "Don't Start A New Thread".
No offense intended to you because I, as the questioner, have no problem reading 10 pages, 70 pages or 170 pages for an answer and it is your site. I don't own it and have no say in the rules. If I want to use the facilities of this site then I should folllow the rules. But I am not sure that I communicated the point I intended. Respectfully, my point is perhaps better expressed like this:
Noob user has a question and posts it in the normal manner in a new thread. Users new and old see it in the list of threads. The topic is what attracts them or steers them away. Someone sees it and wishes to contribute, others will ignore it. That is the way that it traditionally works.
What doesn't happen when all questions are lumped into one thread is that only readers looking for answers to questions are likely to wade through that thread. There is no possibility of a thread title that might catch attention. If someone hasn't been keeping up with that thread 70 pages of posts can be intimidating. So the prospective audience is reduced. If you are saying that this reduces the usefulness of the site as a whole I am puzzled as it makes it more likely to me that I would come and see what is new. In telling me that it harms the site as a whole makes it seem that I am not the kind of user you want hanging around. I don't think that that is your intent, but when you put me in a corner and say that my questions are not useful to the members as a whole, how am I to take that?
It is just my viewpoint as someone that is looking to contact other users of the Fuze. I hope that rather than take offense, it is with the best of motives that I add these comments. I like this site and it has been of real use in the past. I sold my Tilt and I am not sure that the Fuze is a keeper, so I may not be around. But I offer these observations with the genuine desire to help. Best wishes to you.
My point was simply that having 30 new threads added in this sub-forum alone, pushes the very useful threads onto the 3rd or 4th page where people are far less likely to see them. That's who it makes the site less useful.
As for the Q&A thread, I don't expect anyone to look for answers in there. I simply expect that people would post their questions in there instead of starting a new thread. I honestly don't care if people ask the same question 100 times in that thread. That's what it's there for. Most people will get quick responses and move on to something else.
Disrespectfulness
darfri said:
I have seen many dumb questions starting a thread around here like "my device is slow! What to do?" but those threads will also disappear in "history" and I don't understand how this really bugs anyone
KD8DNS said:
You (no disrespect) new users here must realize that this has been our home for a long time
aaand, scotchua said & said & said & ...:
You obviously don't know what the point of the forum is.
not all opinions are of equal value to me
If only any of those whining about this knew how much each mods...
I personally don't even think it would be unfair to administer a short ban for people so blatantly disregarding the rules
The problem we're facing is that most users are thinking individually.
I do agree that a sub-forum might be a possible solution to the problem, but even then people are still not going to even bother reading the rules.
As for the Q&A thread, I don't expect anyone to look for answers in there
if it turns into people complaining because they don't like the Q & A thread then i'll probably just close it.
i have followed this thread from the moment it was created as i shared the same feeling as the op with the dissatisfaction with the current policy of merging all qa threads into one qa thread. i have seen how the similar problem of not-that-constructive posts was solved in the general d&h forum by creating a qa subforum, and i thought that was the right solution.
in the mean time, the situation before the qa thread was not disastrous, as darfri indicated.
i was really annoyed by the disrespectful reply of KD8DNS and the many disrespectful replies by scotchua. it is really amazing how scotchua was throwing insults right and left to everybody who criticized the single-qa-thread policy. THIS is what should be totally unacceptable, not a naive user's question that have asked and answered a billion times. the use of terms like whining tells you that even if you are the brightest, you can't be the best leader (or moderator in our case). scotchua's thoughts of feeling that developers are better than non-developers are simple wrong! i am sure scotchua knows that many of his fellow smarter-than-the-rest-of-us developers have gained a lot of knowledge and came up with many ideas by reading such "valueless" threads.
scotchua might think it is unimportant, but i usually tend to the qa subforum and try to answer general simple questions that i can answer, and i have noticed many others do the same, from a user point of view, such a single qa thread just kills this kind of participation.
forums exist on so many topics all over the internet, and the simple feature in all such forums of having non-active threads go down, is the simple solution to the problem scotchua is "whining" about by having and trying to explain by writing posts of 100s of words to everybody who is disagreeing with that useless thread policy.
the single thread for all qa's policy is obviously wrong because a questioners can't find answers to their question, if anybody ever cared to try answer it in such a mess!
and such disrespectful responses should stop. being a mod doesn't give such privileges.
I know i don't have the BEST reputation around here but i know what i am talking about for the most part and i am begging for you to help clean up this site and forum. For the last few weeks the number of repetitive posts has been absolutely ridiculous, every time I get on XDA i see so many threads that all ask the same thing. There are some many users that apparently think that this site is a tech support site and do not respect us at all. I know that XDA is THE site for the latest info on windows mobile and now android, but people seem to join just to ask simple questions like "my phone is stuck on t-mobile G1 screen" or "BRICK PLEASE HELP!!" most of the people on this site have lives and jobs but i do not. i have no problem helping new members and old members alike, but i do have a problem with stupidity. if a member is not capable or not willing to search for an answer then they either A. don't need it, or B. shouldn't have tried to begin with. i beg that every member on this site go through the first 10 pages of this development forum for our dream and count how many repetitive threads there are open or closed.
i request that we get another mod, i know neoobs and mikey are very busy and do not have time to monitor the forum 24-7 even between the two of them. if we were to get another mod for the forum i think we could start closing/deleting threads that have no right being opened/started, i am not saying that we need to start closing threads left and right, but i know there are at least 10 threads in the first ten pages that talk about Bricked phone that either tried the new SPL, or some other reason. if we had another mod then repeat threads could be closed after a link or answer, that way we aren't completely rude to people but we can keep the forums clean.
Also i realize we can't just go banning people left and right, but if a person joins XDA and in a week has only posted a few times and all posts have been new threads asking about things that have been discussed in detail then they should be suspended to give them a chance to learn how to use the search function and read a few threads and the rules.
i also agree with this.
everytime i log on to xda i have to catch up with a couple pages of new threads and its ridiculous.
I think if u went through those pages u would see 3 threads saying the same think. Well I thinks some got removed (just like this one will) but frankly I don't think there is solution maybe if u had to take quiz befor you could become a member or something. I have I had mistakes on here when i started about posting dumb stuff but yeah that's my 2 cents.
I agree the activity level of this forum (448 - Dream Android Development) ought to merit additional moderation. I mean absolutely no disrespect to those already volunteering their time to keep things tidy -- quite the opposite.
I'm only posting in this thread to voice the opinion that a couple more mods might go a long way to keep some of the more basic questions and chatter relegated to a more appropriate venue (447 - Dream, most likely) and keep the front page ripe with the glorious development meat we all crave.
I'm not saying I'm the chap for the job, but I'd sure be willing to pitch in if consensus agrees there is need. I f5 the site pretty much all day as it is.
I tend to agree but I'm a newb around here still more or less, well to xda anyways. I try to help folks but lose my patience when someone quotes the answer and asks for help. It did give me an ambitious idea though along the lines of a catchall guide for rooting fixing your phone.
i do not think that the solution is as simple as a quiz since this site is a great place for so many phones(anything made by HTC) and no one quiz would cover everything. i am not saying that i need to be the moderator, but i wouldn't complain if i was. i respect the mods that we have and i think they are doing an excellent job. i don't have a job, and don't go to school, i spent about four hours a day sleeping and tthe rest of my time i am either on Xda or trying to find some new fun thing to do with my phone. i do not really have any one specific person in mind that should or could be a mod, but i think that with just one more person they could make a wold of a difference on this forum. just think about it that's all i'm asking
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
One thing that I think would definitely help the clutter is if the stickied posts are very clearly and plainly worded- almost to the point of "dumbing it down", so the newbies can understand it. For example, someone reads in the market that a program requires "root". They decide they are up to try rooting, and look here for the answers. There is a nicely written sticky by Koush that covers it all. That is a nicely written and easy to follow thread. But wait, now they read that Cupcake is out...just look at all the options. Unless they knew they were looking specifically for "JFv1.51 CRB43" how would they know where to start? Set the standards for stickies high (especially the titles!), and maybe it will catch some of the newbies.
Just my $.02
tubaking182 said:
I know i don't have the BEST reputation around here but i know what i am talking about for the most part and i am begging for you to help clean up this site and forum. For the last few weeks the number of repetitive posts has been absolutely ridiculous, every time I get on XDA i see so many threads that all ask the same thing. There are some many users that apparently think that this site is a tech support site and do not respect us at all. I know that XDA is THE site for the latest info on windows mobile and now android, but people seem to join just to ask simple questions like "my phone is stuck on t-mobile G1 screen" or "BRICK PLEASE HELP!!" most of the people on this site have lives and jobs but i do not. i have no problem helping new members and old members alike, but i do have a problem with stupidity. if a member is not capable or not willing to search for an answer then they either A. don't need it, or B. shouldn't have tried to begin with. i beg that every member on this site go through the first 10 pages of this development forum for our dream and count how many repetitive threads there are open or closed.
i request that we get another mod, i know neoobs and mikey are very busy and do not have time to monitor the forum 24-7 even between the two of them. if we were to get another mod for the forum i think we could start closing/deleting threads that have no right being opened/started, i am not saying that we need to start closing threads left and right, but i know there are at least 10 threads in the first ten pages that talk about Bricked phone that either tried the new SPL, or some other reason. if we had another mod then repeat threads could be closed after a link or answer, that way we aren't completely rude to people but we can keep the forums clean.
Also i realize we can't just go banning people left and right, but if a person joins XDA and in a week has only posted a few times and all posts have been new threads asking about things that have been discussed in detail then they should be suspended to give them a chance to learn how to use the search function and read a few threads and the rules.
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So, I've been hanging around and reading this forum since around November last year. That is about 2 full months before I even bought my G1. I love this forum, I can always find the answers I need and I have NEVER once posted a new thread. I use the search function, follow links posted in other forums and just plain old read. That is why I'm probably still listed as a noob. The thing is I have experience in a multitude of forums on a multitude of different topics and items so I know to usually keep my mouth shut unless its a contribution or an emergency. With that said...
The problem is that not everyone knows forum etiquette. Not everyone has been to a forum community and knows how to search. Not everyone knows that search doesn't always work so now its time to scroll threads. Not everyone knows patience like us to take our time to learn. In fact, I think most of the noobs here probably don't know anything about forums, what their about and how they work. All they know is they got a new G1 and SOMEONE said, "hey, you wanna make you phone cooler, go to www.xda-developers.com", or "how did you get that wifi tether thing to work?" So, they show up totally confused and excited to make their g1 experience better. They search a little, read a little and end up completely lost like I did the first time I joined a forum because they really don't know anything but they want to learn. I know we post, "Read this first or get locked", or something like that, but they honestly don't know what to do. This is, in fact a forum, which is defined as a place to meet to discuss things. If we just want to dictate and not discuss, ask questions, answer, and help then why have an open forum?
I will give you this though, there are those that just don't care, know rules, know the proper flow of events and know how to do it in general but still just do what they want. The problem is, though, those are few and far between.
I constantly have to ready, "why is this thread here?", or "mods lock this please", or "don't you know how to use the search function"? Maybe the answer to that question is NO. So why not bee true senior members and answer the question but teach how to use search instead of ridiculing and acting like they are stupid. The fact is new people will ALWAYS show up to forums and will ALWAYS ask questions that you feel are dumb, and ALWAYS start threads without searching or reading so why get mad about it? Answer the question or don't answer the question and blow it off. Why such a big uproar?
Just my .02, sorry if my rant pissed you off and I hope you don't lock me for it.
gospeed.racer said:
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
Just my $.02
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I couldn't agree more. Maybe more Forum Titles would help instead of just development? We could start one call How To's. I would click there first in a heart beat and then find the thread about how to do things.
gospeed.racer said:
One of the problems I have faced on here is that there are WAY too many threads that keep going and going, till they are 100 pages or better. When this happens, it is hard to expect people to read the entire thing, only to get to the last page and find that the method has now changed. I am sure a lot of them give up and just ask in a new thread.
One thing that I think would definitely help the clutter is if the stickied posts are very clearly and plainly worded- almost to the point of "dumbing it down", so the newbies can understand it.
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This is most certainly the case. I spent a lot of time writing and rewriting my SPL and HTC_CIME sticky posts so the first post would be as structured and easy to understand as possible.
That said, some people are also just lazy, don't know/care about stickies, or just don't have reading skills. Also, this is a hacking community. Information and developments move quickly. The sticky posts often become irrelevant or contain obsolete information pretty quickly. You have to just trust that the owner of the sticky will keep it maintained... but that's not always the case.
The basic problem here is do you promote inclusiveness or would you rather have a small pool of high quality members? If it were up to me, any time someone starts a new thread to ask "how i root" or "my a2sd broken HALP" it would be instaban.
setzer715 said:
I couldn't agree more. Maybe more Forum Titles would help instead of just development? We could start one call How To's. I would click there first in a heart beat and then find the thread about how to do things.
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in my experience, more subforums at this stage of the game almost always causes more headaches for mods than they assuage
re: your previous post -- i really feel you on the forum etiquette point, but it's hard to use that rationale to justify "PLEASE HELP - URGENT!!1" threads in the development forum, imo.
I am not a fan of wiki's, but a sub-forum for a Wiki style "how to" sounds to me like a great idea. It would be up to the OP's to keep them "fresh" though. Give all the developers a place to put their stuff, and keep questions out of it. Just recent, fresh methods and software, and easy to follow instructions. I wish I had something to contribute, as I really think this idea may help.
gospeed.racer said:
I am not a fan of wiki's, but a sub-forum for a Wiki style "how to" sounds to me like a great idea.
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xda has a wiki actually. No one uses it though. Also, you'd be a fool to think that just because there is a well maintained wiki that newbies won't keep posting their spam anyway.
jashsu said:
xda has a wiki actually. No one uses it though. Also, you'd be a fool to think that just because there is a well maintained wiki that newbies won't keep posting their spam anyway.
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I don't think we were actually saying another wiki. By the way you'd be amazed at how many people don't know what wiki is. Anyways, I think we're talking about a specific "How To" section that cant be posted on or responses on. It will have have How To's for Root, A2SD and whatever should go there.
alapapa said:
in my experience, more subforums at this stage of the game almost always causes more headaches for mods than they assuage
re: your previous post -- i really feel you on the forum etiquette point, but it's hard to use that rationale to justify "PLEASE HELP - URGENT!!1" threads in the development forum, imo.
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I agree, it would take more moderation. Someone to step and and handle it and I'm pretty sure the guy that started this thread was already asking for that. I'm just trying to off my opinion on what that new mod or mod's could moderate.
I'm really not trying to rationale the posts, I'm simply trying to provide a different point of view. As I've stated before, anytime there is an open forum for anyone to join there will ALWAYS be those posts. We could make it exclusive, where even I couldn't be part, but what would the point of that be? I thought the point was for people to share information and knowledge? Either way, lets let the dev's and mod's figure out what to do. I just hope I get to stick around.
setzer715 said:
I don't think we were actually saying another wiki. By the way you'd be amazed at how many people don't know what wiki is. Anyways, I think we're talking about a specific "How To" section that cant be posted on or responses on. It will have have How To's for Root, A2SD and whatever should go there.
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A stickied thread that indexes the [HOW TO] threads works pretty well for this purpose w/o as much overhead
setzer715 said:
I just hope I get to stick around.
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i wouldn't worry. I don't think anyone (in their right mind, that is) wants to make this board exclusive to the point that potentially meritorious members can't contribute or get valid questions answered.
after all...most noobs eventually grow out of it if they stick around long enough
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
neoobs said:
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
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I believe we should have a troubleshooting subsection, which would automatically filter out all the "I have a brick" type threads from the development forum.
neoobs said:
I agree with many points,
Our forum is cluttered
We need more mods
I want a subforum for questions and answers that I can move all threads that are asking questions to.
Currently it is hard to know what to sticky and what not to sticky when we have a lot of topics in one forum. (how to root, each custom rom, how to get tethering working, how to register, etc)
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This was kinda my point. Development should be just that. Direct people looking for how to's or question's to different forums. Instead of just an extra How To, how about a Q n A one also? Then the development forum wont be cluttered and can just be for developers when they are working on stuff.
While I am in no way a Dev, programmer, grammar expert or anyone of importance, this is my attempt in helping to help XDA/Devs/Android to keep moving forward in the most efficient way possible. As recent events have unraveled it is apparent that XDA, Android, and a flux of Ports & ROMS has boosted the traffic that we are seeing come in and out of XDA. While the traffic is welcomed the absurd amount of "n00bish" post, bickering, and multiple posting is not and that is why I decided to take a stab at making this thread.
Why post this in the Dev forum?
I want this to reflect the fact that in ANY DEVELOPMENT forum there is a different type of etiquette then in any other type of open forum. I've personally learned this from seeing plenty of GREAT Dev's come and go through XDA. Mods please feel free to move or close this is you feel this in inappropriate in the DEV forum.
PROPER DEV FORUM ETIQUETTE:
-READ!!!-
*Read the developers request/post.
*Each and every [ROM] thread I have ever looked into has had a Changelog and inclusion list! READ IT!!! Its usually located on the FIRST or SECOND post in the thread.
*If you are not willing to read through a thread, then search! EVEN BETTER... SEARCH THE THREAD!!!
*If you are following a thread closely enough and see that others are posting or reporting your same issue, CONFIRM and at the least post a LOG
*If you can not keep up on XDA at least follow a developers Twitter. Its a great insight to what is to come. Rather then expanding the crap to filter through in the [ROM] thread, LOOK for updates.
-Remember-
*Not one Dev on here owes any one person anything!!! So dont expect to be entitled to anything such as updates, explanations, and/or anything that you may want or feel should be included in THEIR work!
*By flashing a ROM(or even rooting) on your phone, you are expected by the community that you have some knowledge of what you are doing; Hence you should not be asking or posting "what is adb" or "How do you Flash" type questions. That is NOT development!!! This is REGRESSION for lack of better words.
*DO NOT post ish like "flashing now" .. "downloading" .. "cant wait to flash".
(added by: lexotic_sc300)
*DO NOT post "how is this ROM?... better?... faster?". TRY IT!!! The RA [RECOVERY] can make going from a non hero [ROM] to a Hero [ROM] in a 5 step process(in theroy) and back in one step with the [MOD]swithROM
*Give credit where credit is due!!! If you wanna say "thanks", do it in a constructive way, maybe say it when answering someones n00b question or drop it in your sig: "Thanks to: blah blah", or both
*It is MY observation that Devs do this stuff for just a few reasons: Money, fun, and/or experience.
-Fun- Just cause they are damn good at it and have the extensive ability to do so.
-Money- Not so much just so they get donations, but time is money, they make something worth paying for then they, you, or I would do it if we you could. So if you appreciate what someone has given the community then I am sure they would appreciate any sort of donation.
-*Experience*- The work placed here is NOT for you. It is shared with the community to further development!!! Its placed here to be shown as a physical representation of what a DEV can do. The more success he has, the better it looks to clients or potential employers. That is why CREDIT NEEDS TO BE GIVEN!!!
-Basic Troubleshooting-
*Wipe
*fix_permissions
*post log
*reformat partition
(If you did not take these steps then you have not tried to fix your problem and you should not make a post till you have tried at least one if not all steps.)
*A Force Close (FC) is when you DO NOT have a "wait" option. These are the "bugs" that Dev's need to be reported to respective location. An Android Not Responding (ANR) DOES have the "wait" option and is probably not due to the [ROM] but apps and/or permissions (someone correct me if I am wrong)
-From Members to Members-
*RESPECT each other!
*Be constructive in your posting. If you are not posting an ANSWER or if you are BEING NEGATIVE towards another member, you are virtually spamming the thread that you are trying to keep clean. The least you could do is point the person in the right direction. Refusing to help at all while berating them for doing it wrong accomplishes nothing besides further clogging up the forum with threads bumped with useless posts.
(added by: loccy, commander)
*Do not Fanboy or spam a DEVs[ROM] thread with another DEVs[ROM]. Keep the respective info in its respective thread.
(added by: HiRoots)
-From Members to DEVs-
*DO NOT "ROM whore"! If its not your work then give credit. You and the other DEVs will know if what you are releasing is a [MOD] or [ROM].
(added by: r_dub, IConrad, ComplexMinded)
*Please make sure your first (and second post) are clear for n00bs who will not read this thread. I know you're working hard on building ROMs for us, but FAQ's and n00b instructions will hopefully help!!!
(added by: digitallysick, _Kyros_)
*Please help us help you. If your attitude is poor then your followers/senior members of what you are developing may carry the same attitude. Lead by example.
(added by: IamLugo)
-From DEVs to Members-
*DO NOT be "inclined to help" for you own personal gain
*(any DEVs who would like to get this section going please feel free to post)
**If you have anything to add to this list please feel free to post it and I will update this post** Hopefully this is not done in vain and can help some of the clutter.
Reserved... just in case
Yes thank you this needed to be said well done well written but i would add that making minor changes and reposting a rom does not make it yours nor does it make you a dev like so many people do on xda now days everyone thinks their a dev
Re: Minor tweaks do not a new ROM make. I.e.; if I took the Cyanogen ROM, swap it out for a +mem patched boot.img file, I could not then call it the IConrad01Mod. It would be the CyanogenMod+mem. Not even if I replaced sh with bash by default.
EDIT: Mostly this post is just a "bump" to keep this higher in the ratings so more people see it.
This should be made a sticky thread really should be
Id like to also add to your excellent list
dont post ish like "flashing now" .. "downloading" .. "cant wait to flash"
makes the thread grow too fast and makes it a lot of work for people who do try to follow etiquette and search for the answer before posting
I also agree
IConrad01 said:
Re: Minor tweaks do not a new ROM make. I.e.; if I took the Cyanogen ROM, swap it out for a +mem patched boot.img file, I could not then call it the IConrad01Mod. It would be the CyanogenMod+mem. Not even if I replaced sh with bash by default.
EDIT: Mostly this post is just a "bump" to keep this higher in the ratings so more people see it.
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r_dub said:
This should be made a sticky thread really should be
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Thanks guys... I knew other members would feel the same way.
Like I said in the first sentence, I stated that I have no dev experience and I am pretty much a n00b, but I actually was not aware of "ROM whoring" so we will see if others agree with this and/or their are current devs who feel this would be appropriate to add to the list.
lexotic_sc300 said:
Id like to also add to your excellent list
dont post ish like "flashing now" .. "downloading" .. "cant wait to flash"
makes the thread grow too fast and makes it a lot of work for people who do try to follow etiquette and search for the answer before posting
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agree to that, and im one of those that says flashing, downloading, cant wait, and i realize myself thats its annoying .
"ROM Whoring" is alive and rampant in the forum. I know that all ROMS have "pieces" of other devs work in them but if 90% of your build went untouched then how can you re-release it under your own name?
We honeslty need to seperate ROMS from MODS of ROMS.. There is a clear difference..
Lets add to that for devs
Make your rom instructions CLEAR , and easy to follow.
Also include screen shots , and don't run all of your links and information together.
If your rom doesn't support specific formats/features please list so.
These things will prevent the same questions and issues being asked again and again
Lets add to that for devs
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* Update your initial post to include answers to common questions. Yes, I know, everyone should read the ENTIRE thread, but when that thread is 30 pages deep, people won't.
It really wouldn't be a half-bad idea for the more popular ROMs to solicit people to help support them in a sort of semi-official role.
Great post All~G1, I think that while this thread seems to mainly target Noobs and improper forum etiquette then I can't help but suggest adding something targeted at Devs. All Devs or anyone contributing to the Android Community should (Most do) have precise details on installing whatever your giving to the A.C. and a FAQ's would be nice too, that way we wouldn't have so many tutorials.
I see I'm not alone on this.
I honestly don't see XDA keeping the Dev's with other phones coming out that are not HTC. They will realize HTC is going to be WAY behind and thus having to go to forums like Alldroid.org, android community and forums like that, that cater to ALL Android not Winmo and deal with Android
I wonder if we could have a post# rule implemented (i.e. you need to have x# of posts before you can post in the dev section). If a poster hasn't learned wtf to do in 100 posts and then enters the dev section, they should be banned. lol
Mi|enko said:
I wonder if we could have a post# rule implemented (i.e. you need to have x# of posts before you can post in the dev section). If a poster hasn't learned wtf to do in 100 posts and then enters the dev section, they should be banned. lol
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here is proof that theory isn't the best one. cyanogen was a "junior" member when he started putting his roms on xda. member status does not equal intelligence level. some one could log onto to xda with an amazing rom with features never before seen, but they couldn't post it in the dev section bc they have no posts, doesn't really make sense.
the mods need to enforcing their 3-day ban on people who post nonsense in the dev section (well any section really) but limiting some ones ability to post based on post count is not a great idea.
just my .01 cents. i am very poor right now, so i can only give away a penny.
Mi|enko said:
I wonder if we could have a post# rule implemented (i.e. you need to have x# of posts before you can post in the dev section). If a poster hasn't learned wtf to do in 100 posts and then enters the dev section, they should be banned. lol
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Only issue with that is I do not have many post, but I know about as much on flashing, adb as most of you do...you dont need to post to know what your doing, and to have the ability to help others out when/if you see fit.
Agreed david1171, didnt see your post when I made mine..
thank you all~g1 for this posting! i believe it was sorely needed!
ive spent the past two months reading and learning by trial and error so i agree that instructions could be more clear and concise for n00bs like myself...
ive also seen the flaming that goes on for incorrectly posting in the wrong section so ive taken it upon myself(so i dont get flamed!)to post in the q&a forums.the thought that maybe one day i might learn enough to mod/dev on my own is another reason i only post when needed...
also...excellent idea to put in following the devs by twitter! i get blown up with info from their tweets all the time so i mostly know whats coming before they even release! more to than my actual friends i follow! lol!
just my .02 cents...but the search function here on xda could be a little more thorough so as to maybe help keep down traffic.
but overall...this is a great concept! and thanks again!
Me likey this thread. good show!
IMO it should be stickied and kept unlocked (but clean) like the index so peeps can submit constructive ideas
Wow, really while I'm sure we all appreciate this thread and the thought put into but this is pretty much where everyone starts. This the start for most of the Devs here. So maybe we should make a Topic that says Noobs go here first and then have all the stickies including this one. We need better organization but even still we're not gonna be able to stop people posting in the wrong section. We were all noobs once be humble and put yourself in their place.