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I know you want the phone's battery to fully charge and fully drain, but which do I start with? It comes with a partial charge... so should I charge it first? Or drain it first?
Thanks.
thehyecircus said:
I know you want the phone's battery to fully charge and fully drain, but which do I start with? It comes with a partial charge... so should I charge it first? Or drain it first?
Thanks.
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i always charge my phone before using it for the first time.. then let it drain completely then charge it completely. i try to do this a couple times. So far it's worked out for me on all my electronic devices... never had battery problems.
Please do not ruin your batteries as far as i know Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be drained and charged.
Go down to the second bulleted list, the third bullet
I have never ran my battery completely down, and my Kaiser will last for a full day, and i use it a fair amount.
Wow. Thats good to know.
from my understanding it's mandatory for NiCad batteries to be fully drained but Li-Ion are not. :-D i don't want anyone to have a dead battery :-D
mikemorris said:
Please do not ruin your batteries as far as i know Lithium-Ion batteries don't need to be drained and charged.
Go down to the second bulleted list, the third bullet
I have never ran my battery completely down, and my Kaiser will last for a full day, and i use it a fair amount.
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LMAO.
From the above link:
"-If you completely discharge a lithium-ion battery, it is ruined.
-There is a small chance that, if a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flame."
They should be a bit more specific. Lots of people probably think there battery is "completely discharged" when it won't turn on there phone.
Be sure you put it on the charger when you get the low battery notification, or else it may burst into flames!
thehyecircus said:
I know you want the phone's battery to fully charge and fully drain, but which do I start with? It comes with a partial charge... so should I charge it first? Or drain it first?
Thanks.
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Click to collapse
If you want to prolong the life of your Lithium-Ion battery, DO NOT let it fully drain. This will decrease your battery's overall charge capacity and you'll find yourself having to recharge more frequently. I'm an electrical engineer by education and profession, so here are a few quick points:
1) You do not have to power cycle a Li-Ion battery. Charge it when it drops to about 70% and typically you don't want it to drop below 50%; extremely low voltage levels could render Li-Ion batteries useless because of the internal circuitry.
2) Charge slowly, with a low current, if possible and avoid rapid chargers.
3) Don't leave your battery charging, unnecessarily, when it is already full--this will also diminish it's maximum potential more rapidly. Only charge it when it needs it and unplug it when at 100%.
4) Keep it away from hot environments (e.g. don't leave it sitting in a black car on a hot Summer day, etc.). Heat kills batteries, along with all electronics.
Battery University is a good resource if you're looking for more information on how to take care of your batteries or just want to understand how they work. Hope this helps.
weaselcossey said:
LMAO.
From the above link:
"-If you completely discharge a lithium-ion battery, it is ruined.
-There is a small chance that, if a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flame."
They should be a bit more specific. Lots of people probably think there battery is "completely discharged" when it won't turn on there phone.
Be sure you put it on the charger when you get the low battery notification, or else it may burst into flames!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's actually true that a heavily depleted Li-Ion battery may burst into flames. Li-Ion batteries have a much higher energy density than Ni-Cad and NiMH batteries, and a if they lose too much of their charge, their internal circuitry may become damaged. They should have been more specific in that link, but you should definitely be cautious with Li-Ion battery handling. If it wasn't for the voltage/current regulating circuitry protecting the cells of Li-Ion batteries, they could very well be considered bombs.
So I usually plug my phone in when I come home and unplug it when I leave. Thats bad for my battery? How do I stop it when it reaches 100%?
Man oh man have I been misinformed.
I have ALWAYS heard to drain it fully, then charge it fully...
Fu*kin sh*t!!! I've been destroying li-ion batteries for as long as I've been using them.
So, once you've drained it once it's bad for good, or what?
thehyecircus said:
So I usually plug my phone in when I come home and unplug it when I leave. Thats bad for my battery? How do I stop it when it reaches 100%?
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Click to collapse
That's potentially bad for your battery. The protection circuitry in Li-Ion batteries these days are refined enough to prevent overcharging, but leaving it plugged in can still make it build up heat, which I mentioned won't help you. For the average cell phone battery, the typical charge time is about 3 hours for a full cycle. So that being the case, my best advice for you is to check your phone's charge indicator after a few hours and unplug it if it shows it's at 100%.
Lithium-ion battery lifespans are inherently limited by their manufactured date and by the finite number of charge cycles (one charge cycle is considered the charging from 0% to 100%). So if you deplete your battery by 25% each day and recharge to 100% each night, it would take 4 iterations of this process to complete one cycle. Over the course of using your battery you can expect the off-the-shelf maximum potential to decrease by about 20% each year.
r603 said:
Man oh man have I been misinformed.
I have ALWAYS heard to drain it fully, then charge it fully...
Fu*kin sh*t!!! I've been destroying li-ion batteries for as long as I've been using them.
So, once you've drained it once it's bad for good, or what?
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Click to collapse
Power cycling by fully draining is good practice for NiMH batteries, since they have different properties. But again, for Li-Ion batteries you should avoid doing this. One full depletion may not destroy it necessarily, but there's a good chance that it will have become damaged. This depends on the battery manufacturer's build quality and specifications. You can pretty much be guaranteed a permanently reduced total capacity with a complete discharge though, sorry to say But I guess now you know for future practice to steer clear of the full drain.
orlandojumpoff said:
i always charge my phone before using it for the first time.. then let it drain completely then charge it completely. i try to do this a couple times. So far it's worked out for me on all my electronic devices... never had battery problems.
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Click to collapse
Just FYI, most batteries that are included with new cell phones are pre-charged to approximately 70% in order to maintain a charge above the protection circuit breakdown voltage. The end-user shouldn't have any problems just using the battery out of the box, in this state, but it's a good idea to charge the phone before the first use, just to make sure you're starting from a good reference voltage. Lots of manufacturers include charging recommendations with their lithium-ion batteries stating something along the line that the first charge should be 8+ hours. This is excessive and unnecessary. They probably had some inventory of those notes for some older battery technology or carrying on an obsolete heritage practice. All you have to do is let the phone charge till the full-charge indicator lights up.
Power cycling is helpful from time to time to calibrate the sensor (which is different from the reason you want to do this for nicd)
For everyday use, just charge it whenever you can
It's batteries these days are smart enough to not recharge when already full
I'd carry a retractable mini usb cable to charge it frequently (this will help reduce # of cycles used)
Honestly, I think one of the biggest advantage of having a user-replaceable battery is the fact that you could use the phone without worrying too much about all this
I go by the "I'll put my convenience over the battery's" mentality
Dramacydle said:
Just FYI, most batteries that are included with new cell phones are pre-charged to approximately 70% in order to maintain a charge above the protection circuit breakdown voltage. The end-user shouldn't have any problems just using the battery out of the box, in this state, but it's a good idea to charge the phone before the first use, just to make sure you're starting from a good reference voltage. Lots of manufacturers include charging recommendations with their lithium-ion batteries stating something along the line that the first charge should be 8+ hours. This is excessive and unnecessary. They probably had some inventory of those notes for some older battery technology or carrying on an obsolete heritage practice. All you have to do is let the phone charge till the full-charge indicator lights up.
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The initial overcharge and draining is to compensate for the meter's accuracy (or the lack of it) when a battery is first installed
It's entirely possible for the device to report 0% when the battery is actually alive and well
For example, IBM (now Lenovo) has a little software for their laptops that alerts the user when such power cycling is helpful, and so far, I've benefited from it
We should get such software on Windows Mobile!
How much do you think batteries for this phone will cost? And I'm assuming my local AT&T stores will carry them.
Dramacydle said:
3) Don't leave your battery charging, unnecessarily, when it is already full--this will also diminish it's maximum potential more rapidly. Only charge it when it needs it and unplug it when at 100%.
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Sorry, but as far as I know if the battery meter is 100% the device will prevent overcharging. If you let the device charging overnight in the morning the device will have a normal temperature (it's not getting hot as you said in other post), thus the device doesn't get more that it needs.
thehyecircus said:
We should get such software on Windows Mobile!
How much do you think batteries for this phone will cost? And I'm assuming my local AT&T stores will carry them.
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I can't vouche for the quality, but batteries out of Hong Kong are available at 2 for just under $20 (including shipping) on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Battery-x2-for-...14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318
thehyecircus said:
How much do you think batteries for this phone will cost? And I'm assuming my local AT&T stores will carry them.
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According to the leaked documents from a few days ago, the retail price for the standard battery via AT&T will be $42.00 and $65.00 for the extended battery.
Obviously you can do much better than that with non-OEM products, as noted elsewhere in this thread.
weaselcossey said:
LMAO.
From the above link:
"-If you completely discharge a lithium-ion battery, it is ruined.
-There is a small chance that, if a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flame."
They should be a bit more specific. Lots of people probably think there battery is "completely discharged" when it won't turn on there phone.
Be sure you put it on the charger when you get the low battery notification, or else it may burst into flames!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's actually true that a heavily depleted Li-Ion battery may burst into flames. Li-Ion batteries have a much higher energy density than Ni-Cad and NiMH batteries, and a if they lose too much of their charge, their internal circuitry may become damaged. They should have been more specific in that link, but you should definitely be cautious with Li-Ion battery handling. If it wasn't for the voltage/current regulating circuitry protecting the cells of Li-Ion batteries, they could very well be considered bombs.
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Click to collapse
I understand, but I think you would agree that the general public probably doesn't understand what "completely discharged" or "heavily depleted" battery really means when we're talking about cell phone batteries becoming flaming bombs.
I just thought there wording was pretty funny.
Strangely I found that after a full charge at night, if I continue to charge via usb either in my car or on my computer for several hours, the battery will last all day with only very little loss...like 10%.
This also works if I hook my phone to the computer when I get home around 6pm and then hook up to wall plug by my bed (I use it for my alarm) it will also work!
Otherwise with just the single night charge (7hrs) it only will last about 12hrs.
I think the Fuze's circuitry shuts off charging before it is fully charged. I'm ordering a seperate battery charger (I have 2 HTC batteries) when the charger comes in I will see if it does a better job than the phone.
Anyone else have similar stories?
Here is some information that should be useful to everyone in one way or another if not then you should have told us your secret months ago. lol
A Li-ion batteries life is on a time clock from the day it's produced and how it is used, maintained and the number of cycles it goes through reduces it's life. Even when not being used at all the clock is ticking and life is shortening.
So if any of you are like me I know many of you are far worse than me when it comes to the amount of stress put through it with flashing and extreme general use. Hopefully this will shed some light for us as to what we can do to try and prolong the life of our batteries.
The majority of the following information is from the book “Batteries in a Portable World – A Handbook on Rechargeable Batteries for Non-Engineers” (2nd edition) and Battery University™
Special thanks to the books author and sponsor of Battery University™,
Isidor Buchmann
CEO and Founder, Cadex Electronics Inc.
How to Prolong the Life of Li-ion Batteries
Battery wear-down on lithium-based batteries is caused by two activities: actual usage or cycling, and aging. The wear-down effects by usage and aging apply to all batteries but this is more pronounced on lithium-based systems.
The Li-ion batteries prefer a shallow discharge. Partial discharges produce less wear than a full discharge and the capacity loss per cycle is reduced. A periodic full discharge is not required because the lithium-based battery has no memory. A full cycle constitutes a discharge to 3V/cell. When specifying the number of cycles a lithium-based battery can endure, manufacturers commonly use an 80 percent depth of discharge. This method resembles a reasonably accurate field simulation. It also achieves a higher cycle count than doing full discharges.
Simple Guidelines
Charge the Li-ion often, except before a long storage. Avoid repeated deep discharges.
Keep the Li-ion battery cool. Prevent storage in a hot car. Never freeze a battery.
Avoid purchasing spare Li-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing date when purchasing. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.
Hints to long battery life
3.92V/cell is the best upper voltage threshold for cobalt-based lithium-ion. Charging batteries to this voltage level has been shown to double cycle life. Lithium-ion systems for defense applications make use of the lower voltage threshold. The negative is reduced capacity.
The charge current of Li-ion should be moderate (0.5C for cobalt-based lithium-ion).The lower charge current reduces the time in which the cell resides at 4.20V. It should be noted that a 0.5C charge only adds marginally to the charge time over 1C because the topping charge will be shorter. A high current charge tends to push the voltage up and forces it into the voltage limit prematurely.
Memory Myth or Fact?
Lithium batteries are not affected by memory, but the chemistry has its own peculiarities. Current inhibiting pacifier layers affect them through plate oxidation. This degenerative effect is non-correctable on a lithium-based system
Calibration
A more serious issue is maintenance requirements, better known as capacity re-learning. This procedure is needed on a regular basis to calibrate the battery.
Why is calibration needed?
The answer is in correcting the tracking errors that occur between the battery and the digital sensing circuit during use. The most ideal battery use, as far as fuel-gauge accuracy is concerned, is a full charge followed by a full discharge at a constant 1C rate. This ensures that the tracking error is less than one percent per cycle. However, a battery may be discharged for only a few minutes at a time and commonly at a lower C-rate than 1C. Worst of all, the load may be uneven and vary drastically. Eventually, the true capacity of the battery no longer synchronizes with the fuel gauge and "a full charge and discharge are needed to ‘re-learn’ or calibrate the battery."
How often is calibration needed?
The answer lies in the type of battery application. For practical purposes, a calibration is recommended once every three months or after every 40 short cycles.
What happens if the battery is not calibrated regularly? Can such a battery be used in confidence?
Such a battery is able to function normally, but the digital readout will be inaccurate. If not corrected, the fuel gauge information simply becomes a nuisance.
Just Tell Me WTF I Should Do!
Charge your battery as often as possible, partial discharges are actually better for your battery
Once your battery is charged to 100% avoid leaving it plugged in any longer if you are not using a OEM charger.
Your battery should never get hot from charging if it does this is a sign it may be damaged.
If fuel gauge starts acting up calibrate your battery.
Yeah but how the f^$% do I calibrate my battery?
Charge phone up and then delete your battery stats.
Unplug your phone from your wall charger and let your battery drain all the way down until phone shuts off.
While still off charge phone to 100% and then boot up as normal.
There is so much more that it's mind boggling but I think this covers the main parts and beyond for everyone. So far it appears that the bump method is not necessary nor are the numerous other steps.
I can only laugh when I think that the reason the method of calibration I was using was actually working is due to the fact that the "wipe batt stats, drain battery completely and charge to 100%" is basically the last step and all that is essentially needed.
3 hours? That's it? I thought whenever I charged from empty to full when it's off it's longer.. I should time it.. hmm
darkamikaze said:
3 hours? That's it? I thought whenever I charged from empty to full when it's off it's longer.. I should time it.. hmm
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Click to collapse
I removed the time completely since some may vary. But the 3 hours is how long it should take to charge on a standalone battery charger. So rather than confuse or have questions it's better without it.
Nice work!
Charging a 1500mAh battery at 500mAh for example will take 3 hours. The Captivate charges at 2 levels though depending on if it's USB (500mAh max for charge + phone use) or a charger (whatever it says on the charger up to ~1200mAh) so it can probably get done in under 2 hours.
The phone charges to 4.23V and stops charging when full but continues to run on external power, and shuts down at 3.500V where it only consumes current to monitor the power button.
Just for reference.
Battery Stats
Since this is the first time i had a really good battery life. I would like to share it with everyone. Please see the attached screen shots.
I am using Darky's 9.1 with SuckerPunch's 1280/500 Kernel and TLJL3 modem.
I hope this will help anyone trying to get more battery life out of their Captivate.
Thanks,
CuriousTech said:
Nice work!
Charging a 1500mAh battery at 500mAh for example will take 3 hours. The Captivate charges at 2 levels though depending on if it's USB (500mAh max for charge + phone use) or a charger (whatever it says on the charger up to ~1200mAh) so it can probably get done in under 2 hours.
The phone charges to 4.23V and stops charging when full but continues to run on external power, and shuts down at 3.500V where it only consumes current to monitor the power button.
Just for reference.
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Click to collapse
Thanks Curious appreciate it and thanks for the additional info.
I had some other random thoughts about the calibration because I keep seeing so many posts daily.
For example "I installed a new kernel 15 minutes ago, recalibrated and the battery drain is horrible." or "After a few charges it lasted longer."
I don't think people get the idea of calibration. Recalibrating determines the capacity of the battery to convert to a % full gauge. To do that you need to fully charge until the "Battery full. Unplug charger." notification, and not rely on the display and unplugging as soon as it hits 100%. That's the inaccurate display that you're trying to calibrate.
Think of it like having an opaque container and a teaspoon. You think the container can hold 100 teaspoons, so you stop filling at 100. All you can get out of it is 100 until you try to fill until it tops off and then count how many come back out.
The phone works the same way. It has an ammeter that monitors the charge current and drain current from the battery from the time you unplug it until it shuts off and remembers that total as the capacity. Unless it's recharged in the middle which voids the data.
After that full discharge, it should stay pretty accurate even with partial discharges. At least until the next rom/kernel flash which wipes it out. At that point (I assume) it uses a simple voltage level and some relative amps drawn to display the gauge, instead of the smarter method of keeping a constant value of mAh by adding when charging and subtracting when draining to know exaclty how full the battery is.
CuriousTech said:
Nice work!
Charging a 1500mAh battery at 500mAh for example will take 3 hours. The Captivate charges at 2 levels though depending on if it's USB (500mAh max for charge + phone use) or a charger (whatever it says on the charger up to ~1200mAh) so it can probably get done in under 2 hours.
The phone charges to 4.23V and stops charging when full but continues to run on external power, and shuts down at 3.500V where it only consumes current to monitor the power button.
Just for reference.
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Click to collapse
hm. so if the phone switches to external power when the charge is full, is it okay to leave my phone plugged in once it's done charging? or is it just the fact that the battery is holding a full (4.2V) charge for a long time that's bad for its health?
in any case, useful post! i knew there were ways to preserve the life of li-ion batteries, but was never well-versed on the details.
Yes to both. Once the battery is fully charged, the charge circuit stops completely. It doesn't even need to trickle charge, so leaving it plugged in doesn't hurt anything.
Once the charge is complete the voltage isn't being held at 4.20V so it can come back down a little. I think BatteryUniversity generalizes becuase there have been many different designs over the years that weren't as good as what we have now, and some may have trickle charged their Li-Ions which shortens the life.
Which is it that wipes the battery stats, ROM or kernel? or is it both?
CuriousTech said:
Yes to both. Once the battery is fully charged, the charge circuit stops completely. It doesn't even need to trickle charge, so leaving it plugged in doesn't hurt anything.
Once the charge is complete the voltage isn't being held at 4.20V so it can come back down a little. I think BatteryUniversity generalizes becuase there have been many different designs over the years that weren't as good as what we have now, and some may have trickle charged their Li-Ions which shortens the life.
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Click to collapse
One word of caution though is to ensure that you are using an OEM charger. Battery University recommends that you unplug once capacity is reached but perhaps this is a general statement for Li-ion batteries as you state.
zerkai said:
Which is it that wipes the battery stats, ROM or kernel? or is it both?
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Click to collapse
Both. The first thing in a ROM flash script is to format all the partitions, so that means the batterstats.bin file is erased. When flashing a new kernel the file gets reset by some other means. No idea what. It could be CWM.
Yeah but how the f^$% do I calibrate my battery?
Charge phone up and then delete your battery stats.
Unplug your phone from your wall charger and let your battery drain all the way down until phone shuts off.
While still off charge phone to 100% and then boot up as normal.
My noob question is, how do you delete the battery stats?
iNFRiNGE said:
One word of caution though is to ensure that you are using an OEM charger. Battery University recommends that you unplug once capacity is reached but perhaps this is a general statement for Li-ion batteries as you state.
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What happens when you introduce the variable of occasional car charger use?
Sanctus Peregrinus said:
Yeah but how the f^$% do I calibrate my battery?
Charge phone up and then delete your battery stats.
Unplug your phone from your wall charger and let your battery drain all the way down until phone shuts off.
While still off charge phone to 100% and then boot up as normal.
My noob question is, how do you delete the battery stats?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the file is located at /data/system/batterystats.bin . you'll need a file browser with root access (i use root explorer, a paid app). make sure you mount the storage as read/write or you won't be able to delete the file.
after that, reboot your phone and it will rebuild the batterystats file.
***disclaimer: be careful doing this. if you delete a crucial file, you risk messing up or bricking your phone. such is life.
Nice write up with alot of interesting information. I have never calibrated my battery but will have to try it out. Thanks for posting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I'm not positive of this, but I don't think batterystats.bin holds any battery capacity or health info. I was looking at BatteryManager and it looks like a database of processes and what they use only. But there is info somewhere that gets lost easily, which is the capacity and current amount consumed.
I've been skipping the delete of that file (using CWM) and have noticed that it recalibrates fine anyway. This coming from the point of dropping just after unplugging, which is a good indication that the info is gone.
It doesn't matter if you use a car charger, USB, or AC. The phone has the actual smart charger in it, the external connection is just the power supply. The chip inside regulates and monitors the charge.
So think of it this way. The charger knows when the battery is empty or full, and measures what goes in and comes out. So to know the capacity, it has to go from full to empty. That's really all there is to it. Just wait for the real "Battery full" before unplugging.
Hi. I noticed, that my Sensation after charging battery showing green led, that battery is full.
What I noticed on battery widget, that 100mA of tickle charge is provided to the battery even when it is fully charged what is bad for Li-ion and Li-poly cells.
I need to verify that on DVM and a scope, but it looks like I said.
So, is there any chance to edit ROM to really interrupt charging when battery hits 4.2V?
Li-ion cannot absorb overcharge, and when fully charged the charge current must be cut off. A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium, and this could compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the 4.20V/cell peak voltage as short a time as possible.
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Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
Mike
That should already happen inside the battery's controller.
Even though the system might appear as if it was still charging, the batteries are quite intelligent these days and the charging circuits are built so that the battery's lifetime is as long as possible.
When the LED goes green and the display reports 100% the battery isn't fully charged.
After some time (usually 30-60 minutes after LED goes green) then battery will be full and charging will stop.
Swyped from my HTC Sensation
One of the things I have noticed scouring the internet for tips on battery life prolongation, is that you end up with lots of contradictory advice coming from unreferenced (and often, unresearched) sources. (Note that by 'prolonging', I mean both prolonging the current battery cycle, and also, how to prolong the battery in the long term).
One big question is how you should be recharging it. For example:
Do you let the battery go down low, and then recharge it back to full?
Do you only do partial discharges, and always keep the battery topped up?
When available, is it better to work plugged in?
There are two helpful articles, both from the Battery University, which seems reliable and they have nice experimental data.
[1] Charging lithium batteries
[2] How to prolong lithium batteries
From what I gather, the answer to the above questions are as follows:
Full discharges will reduce the number of recharge cycles in your battery. For example, going to 100% discharge only gives a battery with 500 discharges, while going to 10% discharge gives a battery with 4700 discharges. Note that this advice contradicts other 'unreferenced' sources, like here:
Change your charging pattern: Most of us have the habit of charging the phone quite often even when the phone has enough battery left on it. It’s always better to leave the battery to discharge completely to say like 20% and only then recharge it. This way your battery will not only also last longer but also has longer life.
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Click to collapse
It is better to note recharge to full
Li-ion does not need to be fully charged, as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge, because high voltages stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold, or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Since the consumer market promotes maximum runtime, these chargers go for maximum capacity rather than extended service life.
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Click to collapse
However, I admit that this is a fairly PITA rule to implement. It would be impractical to always charge only to, say 80%. I think this rule, in practice, advises against charging all the way to 100% because then your charger may put in the topping charge (how many chargers do this?)
It is better to not leave devices plugged into wall charges.
Some portable devices sit in a charge cradle in the on position. The current drawn through the device is called the parasitic load and can distort the charge cycle. Battery manufacturers advise against parasitic load because it induces mini-cycles. The battery is continuously being discharged to 4.20V/cell and then charged by the device. The stress level on the battery is especially high because the cycles occur at the 4.20V/cell threshold.
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Click to collapse
A portable device must be turned off during charge.
This allows the battery to reach the set threshold voltage unhindered, and enables terminating charge on low current. A parasitic load confuses the charger by depressing the battery voltage and preventing the current in the saturation stage to drop low. A battery may be fully charged, but the prevailing conditions prompt a continued charge. This causes undue battery stress and compromises safety.
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Click to collapse
This, however, spawns two further questions:
What about USB charging? Because USB charging is slower (due to a lower amperage), is there any advantage to working with your tablet plugged into a USB drive? Is this better than discharging the battery?
I work with my laptop plugged in all the time. Partly, there is nothing I can do about it (Macbooks no longer allow easy removable of the battery). This means that on top of the heat degrading the battery, one must contend with the battery contunually being charged. What are the safeguards in place? I would imagine a smart charging system would lower the voltage and amperage when a laptop is plugged in.
I remember when I used a iPhone that one cycle includes partial charges and discharges like if you charge 10% and then another 20% and so on you ad those until you get 100% of a cycle, this was according to apple. That's why you can get your battery dead in one year and half (since they promises 450ish battery cycles )
Inntresting reading...
Sent from HTC Sensation, Elegancia ROM Series....
Hey, thanks for this, man. Good tips. I don't want to go abusing the batteries of all those shiny new Christmas gadgets.
Thanks very useful tips
Yes for li-ion you never want it to fully discharge.
Rift
I like the research you did here very nice. I have an EVO and that thing can't hold a charge for anything. I have like three batteries (two that come with wall chargers) just so I know I'm not going to run out of juice when I need it. I could leave everything off like mobile data, wifi, etc but then why do I have a fancy smancy phone then to begin with I want to use the damn thing. The battery is my only real issue I have with this magnificent phone. Thanks for taking the time to do some research on the subject.
Thanks for the tips. Battery is important than CPU now as for UX is concerned.
battery management
i found the battery manager from Market Place really useful for my I9000 Galaxy S on ICS
thanks for the good information
Thanks for this news
If your worried about power "cleanliness" you could always get a power conditioner to guarantee level output.
Now with batteries being able to be replaced easy enough (droid user) and with in my price point I don't give it too much thought.
Thanks for the great info, should be a big help
Glad I have insurance.... battery dies, they give me a new one!-
3G or 2G
Had someone checked, if using 2G instead of 3G giving the much better battery life?
If you are asking if you get more battery life with 2G than 3G, I think it's the same. The battery life should be less if you have the option "use 2G/3G preferred" because the phone searches simultaneously for 2G and 3G frequencies
Now that you bring that up, has anybody compared 3g to 4G battery life?
Thanks for the tips. It really does get confusing when coming to batteries.
Thank you for the advice
i agree...and have found this all true in my own studys and doings
I read that a battery will last longer if you don't let it get below 40%, and full discharges are bad for the longevity. Is this true? Here is a good read on the subject. http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Jspeer said:
I read that a battery will last longer if you don't let it get below 40%, and full discharges are bad for the longevity. Is this true? Here is a good read on the subject. http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
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that is true. the affect is probably minimal though(like we probably lose .7% of our battery per month if dont let it get low before charging it, instead of the typical 1% per month)
i get through half of my day with about 50% battery less, sometimes more. so i've made it a habit of charging it once i see it's around this 50% mark.
Jspeer said:
I read that a battery will last longer if you don't let it get below 40%, and full discharges are bad for the longevity. Is this true? Here is a good read on the subject. http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
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Click to collapse
The effect is accelerated/more pronounced below 20%...
Here is the good thing though... These phone's minimum operating voltage is higher than the minimum voltage of a Li ION battery. Using standard battery life measurements, the 0% according to the phone, is about 20% of standard.
Should you do a full discharge every now and then in order to calibrate the battery? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer on this in other related threads. Some say you should, some say it's not necessary since the battery doesn't have memory cells. I have never let my battery get below 50% and everything seems to work fine but it does seem to make sense to do a full discharge from time to time so the battery knows its capacity.
Jspeer said:
Should you do a full discharge every now and then in order to calibrate the battery? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer on this in other related threads. Some say you should, some say it's not necessary since the battery doesn't have memory cells. I have never let my battery get below 50% and everything seems to work fine but it does seem to make sense to do a full discharge from time to time so the battery knows its capacity.
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Li-ON battery's do not need to be calibrated. that was only with old battery tech such as Ni-Cad or NIMH
I let mine get low all the time I use my phone a lot. Hopefully its not to expensive to replace battery since Google thinks that replacing a battery is to complicated for us tech savvy people
Justice for Kelly Thomas RIP
I don't worry about it. I charge it overnight. If I've over used it in the day and I feel it will die before bed, i'll top it up but not to protect the battery. Just to ensure I can use my phone.
If they wanted you to do anything special with charging / draining, it would be in the instructions
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markdapimp said:
Li-ON battery's do not need to be calibrated. that was only with old battery tech such as Ni-Cad or NIMH
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The battery itself does not but occasionally the controller needs a kick in the pants. Deep drains on li-ion should be avoided at all costs. The phone hasn't been out long enough to even think about the sort of problem. But after a couple hundred charges you might see a behavior that will be corrected by one full discharge.
Its not uncommon to see cases where you actually replace the cell behind a controller and the controller not picking up the change in capacity. Never in cell phones mostly laptop battery rebuilds etc but it exhibits an idea of what happens. The battery controller takes note of the original, current maximum and current charge capacity. Not sure how I suppose voltage versus read amp hours. But as a battery gets old you might start seeing the maximum capacity reading fluctuate. But if at any time the actual chemical capacity is higher than the controller thinks it is the controller will prevent the battery from reaching its potential.
Used to have older PSP batteries reach 100% real quick, quick fix was to deep discharge through the controller using a small light bulb. The battery would then take a significant charge and last a few more months before kicking the bucket.
Jspeer said:
I read that a battery will last longer if you don't let it get below 40%, and full discharges are bad for the longevity. Is this true? Here is a good read on the subject. http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
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Click to collapse
40% is a good number for storage, its actually better to store it at 40% than 100%. Actual use 20 to 25% is my personal range but I would say just never let it get below 15%. Lithium Ion does not mind being topped off. Deep discharged will ruin it real quick. My laptop battery lasted 3 years never letting it go below 25%, murdered a cell phone battery once a year letting it die.
I let it go to 1% and turn itself off. Then I charge it back up. But if I know I am going out in the next few hours I charge it as much as I can before I leave.
markdapimp said:
Li-ON battery's do not need to be calibrated. that was only with old battery tech such as Ni-Cad or NIMH
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lots of the fuel gauges for these types of batteries do need to be calibrated. this is not true for the N5 though(i think). I want to say i remember reading that this fuel gauge is different, like a 'smart fuel gauge' or something
kmx said:
I let it go to 1% and turn itself off. Then I charge it back up. But if I know I am going out in the next few hours I charge it as much as I can before I leave.
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You shouldn't do that almost ever. And by no means as a regular practice.
Molitro said:
You shouldn't do that almost ever. And by no means as a regular practice.
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Thats what the built in protection is for:
Marine6680 said:
The effect is accelerated/more pronounced below 20%...
Here is the good thing though... These phone's minimum operating voltage is higher than the minimum voltage of a Li ION battery. Using standard battery life measurements, the 0% according to the phone, is about 20% of standard.
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Click to collapse
Enddo said:
lots of the fuel gauges for these types of batteries do need to be calibrated. this is not true for the N5 though(i think). I want to say i remember reading that this fuel gauge is different, like a 'smart fuel gauge' or something
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Click to collapse
Its not any different. as with older battery technologies they would loose capacity until they are calibrated 0% to 100% this is due to the chemistry of the battery
LI-ON battery's have a different chemistry which allows them to store greater capacity without loss like NI-CAD and NIMH did this is why you turn off your phone for a week and turn it on you find it still has about the same battery percentage as you turned it off before.
here's an example of a NI-CAD battery which needs to be calibrated.
You have a drill you haven't used for 3 days it was fully charged before you put it away if you take that same drill 3 days later you'd find it dead. where as LI-ON battery's would still be alive and full capacity. if you charge it from there it wouldn't be calibrated. as calibration requires you to drain the battery 2 times or more till it reaches it full capacity and charge it back up to 100% and repeat.
If you were to do that with a LI-ON battery you're basically doing nothing but wasting your charge cycles on the battery and you could kill it as LI-ON battery's DO NOT LIKE TO BE EMPTY
Because of all that NI-CAD and NIMH mess mostly all power tools you'd find in a shop such as home depot are now equipped with LI-ON battery's as they don't require calibration and can be left for months and it would still have its initial capacity prior to charging because Ni-cad battery's suffer from a memory effect and LI-ON does not, NI-CAD Requires full discharge before recharge LI-ON does not you get the point here right? LI-ON is better!
Now for those apps that claim calibrate the battery they do nothing they just Improve the reading of the software in android to get the battery percentage which is reset every time the battery charges to 100% so in short don't calibrate your battery
You can read more here http://www.diffen.com/difference/Li-ion_vs_NiCad
and watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrcbcm11830
markdapimp said:
Its not any different. as with older battery technologies they would loose capacity until they are calibrated 0% to 100% this is due to the chemistry of the battery
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Click to collapse
The battery controller is still the source of the problem. If the batteries chemical capacity at a given moment is 1800 mah down from its original 2300 and the charge controller thinks the capacity is 500 the controller will only charge the battery to 500. Most controllers do not act like their dumber counter parts which will trickle or cut off when the cells characteristics indicate it is reaching a full charge.
The controller in these batteries while varying greatly in design all have one thing in common. They are designed for safety. The controller will actually stop accepting a charge forever if the voltage of the cell goes below a certain point. It will also never charge it above the current observed maximum capacity no matter what reality is.
You can poll a battery using vendor specific commands to get the designed, current maximum and current charge. The current maximum charge capacity is a changing value it will change over the life of the battery. This was an aging laptop battery that while the controller knew what the "Full Charge Capacity" was currently it decided not to report that to windows resulting in a hilarious 410%.
But we are talking about a problem that really won't rear its head for 1 or 2 years and were talking about doing it once or twice over the life of the battery. People doing it now and all the time WILL kill the battery very quickly for no benefit.
markdapimp said:
Its not any different. as with older battery technologies they would loose capacity until they are calibrated 0% to 100% this is due to the chemistry of the battery
LI-ON battery's have a different chemistry which allows them to store greater capacity without loss like NI-CAD and NIMH did this is why you turn off your phone for a week and turn it on you find it still has about the same battery percentage as you turned it off before.
here's an example of a NI-CAD battery which needs to be calibrated.
You have a drill you haven't used for 3 days it was fully charged before you put it away if you take that same drill 3 days later you'd find it dead. where as LI-ON battery's would still be alive and full capacity. if you charge it from there it wouldn't be calibrated. as calibration requires you to drain the battery 2 times or more till it reaches it full capacity and charge it back up to 100% and repeat.
If you were to do that with a LI-ON battery you're basically doing nothing but wasting your charge cycles on the battery and you could kill it as LI-ON battery's DO NOT LIKE TO BE EMPTY
Because of all that NI-CAD and NIMH mess mostly all power tools you'd find in a shop such as home depot are now equipped with LI-ON battery's as they don't require calibration and can be left for months and it would still have its initial capacity prior to charging because Ni-cad battery's suffer from a memory effect and LI-ON does not, NI-CAD Requires full discharge before recharge LI-ON does not you get the point here right? LI-ON is better!
Now for those apps that claim calibrate the battery they do nothing they just Improve the reading of the software in android to get the battery percentage which is reset every time the battery charges to 100% so in short don't calibrate your battery
You can read more here http://www.diffen.com/difference/Li-ion_vs_NiCad
and watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrcbcm11830
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
look man
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Partial discharge on Li-ion is fine; there is no memory and the battery does not need periodic full discharge cycles to prolong life, other than to calibrate the fuel gauge on a smart battery once in a while.
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now believe what you want
Once in a while isn't explicit. The video posted earlier says once a year or so... both of those are "a while" to me
It all depends on the controller and the software but mostly its no longer necessary.
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Molitro said:
You shouldn't do that almost ever. And by no means as a regular practice.
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Thanks for the recommendation.:angel:
rootSU said:
Thats what the built in protection is for:
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Fair enough.
But still doens't seem like a good practice given how the recommendations with this kind of tecnology are usually don't go too low and try to charge at different values, not always plug the charger at the same level.
Li Ion batteries charge to a maximum voltage before the charge stops in a phone or other device that charges while also operating.
To fully charge a Li Ion battery you need to monitor current draw of the battery as it is charging, it drops as the cell reaches saturation. This is difficult to do in an operating circuit... Though the tech may be getting better, as load sharing was not common for charging cell phones a few years ago, but it may now be, I have actually been looking for info on powered device charging, but find little beyond load sharing type.
So the battery in a phone could hold more juice if it was charged out of the device, and more still if the phones could run at the 3v minimum of Li Ion. (min voltage of arm devices is around 3.5v) Load sharing chargers can charge fully though.
Also charge rate affects battery life... slower charging is better for long lifespan. If you overnight charge, use the lowest rated charger you have, or standard USB charging. The current phones come with higher amp chargers now... It really doesn't speed up the overall charge cycle to 100% very much, but it does make charging to 80% quicker. So you can do a quick charge of a low battery to a usable level in a hurry.
Power tools use LiFe chemistry batteries which are more tolerant of abuse and misuse... at the cost of less voltage and capacity and more weight.
I work from home so it's easy for me to top off the phone as needed. I'll usually throw it on the charger for a while around 3-ish PM to make sure that I have a full charge going into the evening since I do a lot of reading on it after the kids are in bed. I'm definitely what you would call an opportunistic charger - there's no need to drain the battery all the way unless you absolutely can't get to a charger. I don't understand why people choose to run their batteries down all the way when they don't have to.