People are constantly modifying stock ROMs, taking drivers from leaked builds, putting apps in their ROMs, ect... And it makes me wonder, is any of this technically illegal? Maybe not "directly" illegal, I'm thinking "indirectly" illegal. For example, the way installing OS X on a hackintosh is illegal cuz you violate some of Apple's rules or whatever. Get what I mean? Are we breaking the rules and violating a ton of companies' work?
Is there anything wrong with all the ROMing and rooting that goes on with Android?
Edit: Oops, this thread is probably in the wrong place. Sorry. It might belong in "General" or something
Well,I think that flashing roms by itself isn't illegal,as Android is open-source.Messing with locked bootloaders could be considered illegal,and as punishment we are deprived of our warranties.I also think that porting close-source stuff(UIs etc like Sense) that are the property of companies is also illegal,but they do have a way to protect that stuff well enough...
tolis626 said:
Well,I think that flashing roms by itself isn't illegal,as Android is open-source.Messing with locked bootloaders could be considered illegal,and as punishment we are deprived of our warranties.I also think that porting close-source stuff(UIs etc like Sense) that are the property of companies is also illegal,but they do have a way to protect that stuff well enough...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm. That sucks. Basically every ROM out there is probably using something illegally taken out of some stock or leaked ROM or whatever. Doesn't it seem that way?
Yumunum said:
Hmm. That sucks. Basically every ROM out there is probably using something illegally taken out of some stock or leaked ROM or whatever. Doesn't it seem that way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, not really. I think that the whole android system is based on open source (AOSP), including "stock" roms.
There are tons of roms developed directly from google's aosp source, taking nothing illegally- on the opposite- contributing to the project...
You can google or look in wikipedia for more info about android open source project.
Why, do you see any problem?
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
Im calling the Police!!!! Your Going Down Town to Google Jail!
mattfox27 said:
Im calling the Police!!!! Your Going Down Town to Google Jail!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol, my concern isn't anything like that. I'm not afraid of getting "caught" or whatever. It's morals. And that's a whole different discussion, I'm not going to get into it ;P
Stuff that is used in custom roms that comes from paid work is ILLEGAL in any way.
Drivers as sample:
- a lot of guys working in company's where the code is done by paid work - used in custom roms is illegal because the small letters from the law
- how to get these cooks by the law. It is hard but the evidence is sampled every day, believe me.
- every cook who is using leaked or stock stuff without the permission from the owner is illegal. Oh s**t XDA has to close a lot of threads very fast, because it is illegal .
Sense is the next sample:
ok HTC is doing nothing at the moment, because they have a profit on that. But in nature it is illegal in any way
Also the Samsung leaked stuff:
Samsung has a lot of profit in that way, but wait for the day when they are bigger or equal as Apple, they will go against that.
Apple:
is the best sample. Ok Apple's politics is s**t in my eyes, but they have the right on his site. Every jail break as sample is illegal in any way.
At the end, i had asked my lawyer about all this leaked and stock stuff, modding and cookking (not a local small one, a big player in our world company). He shows me some facts and normally we all use illegal stuff in the eys of the law. And a normaly good froum, so as XDA, can't change anything on that.
mike2nl said:
Stuff that is used in custom roms that comes from paid work is ILLEGAL in any way.
Apple:
is the best sample. Ok Apple's politics is s**t in my eyes, but they have the right on his site. Every jail break as sample is illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not in usa jailbreaking is legal,downloading paid apps for free,that's another story
Illegal or not once you buy the phone its up to you how you use it
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
If you buy a phone, it is now yours and you can do everything with it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Jay794 said:
Illegal or not once you buy the phone its up to you how you use it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dennisalex said:
If you buy a phone, it is now yours and you can do everything with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you buy a phone then you are right, but what is with the millions of people who has a contract with her provider and a locked phone, or a phone gift or a phone with the quarter of the price....
Then it is illegal, because you don't are the owner of that phone. You have to pay for it with the contract. At the end of that contract the phone is yours not earlier.
The same thing is when you buy a second hand phone with all this stuff, it is illegal and you have to format it (in simple word *lol).
@xxmarkosxx:
that was new for me that amercia has given it free and that by the power of Apple. I will ask the american lawyer of our company and will come back for that. In two weeks i am there and then i will ask.
The most active illegal activity in custom roms is people porting closed-source vendor apparently like Sony Walkman or HTC Keyboard to other brands. Any kind of reverse engineering on these closed source files is a breach of license.
Sent from Xperia Play (R800a) with Tapatalk
Sorry to say, not all the time. Because i know what i have written and what is payed and what not. But in some cases you are right Dan.
In some images i have added special code to see back my work. So some things can be illegal
mike2nl said:
Sorry to say, not all the time. Because i know what i have written and what is payed and what not. But in some cases you are right Dan.
In some images i have added special code to see back my work. So some things can be illegal
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no such thing as owning software unless you created it yourself from scratch. Even if it's free/free (libre, as in free beer) open source, you don't own the software. You still have to follow the laws of the license. And even if you did create the software yourself, you are still bound my the license agreement of whatever IDE('s)/SDK('s) you used to write it. (E.g. it is illegal to sell software, or use software in a commercial environment, if it was created in Microsoft Visual Studio Express).
This goes the same for apps that are not open source, e.g. Xperia S Launcher or HTC Keyboard, and many apps on the Play Store. When you bought the app/device, you do not own the software, but you are legally permitted to use the software as defined in the license agreement. 95% of closed-source license agreements deny the permission to reverse engineer these files, so as soon as you use APKTool on an APK that is not open-source, you've breached copyright law.
With that said, most OEM's don't seem to care too much about XDA and various other website developments about porting proprietary vendor packages to other devices. They just don't have time or resources to chase these people down and try to sue them (I mean, they're not Apple heh) - it'd cost more money than they'd feasibly get. OTOH, some developers, such as Xiaomi (MIUI ROM creators from China), actually congratulate and share public releases of their closed-source packages being ported to non-MIUI devices and ROM's.
If you do your research, there is no argument to stand against it being illegal - it's a fact. But that's not to say it's wrong, and not to say the OEM's are too bothered about it. After all, they get a bit of publicity about it (some time ago, I switched from a HTC to a Sony device because I was much more impressed with Xperia's UI and stock apps which I used on a hacked HTC device).
Regarding bootloader/unlocking/rooting, not all manufacturers demonize it. Sony provide an official means to do it - as long as the provider has not blocked bootloader unlocking (which then requires specialized service - as said, this is usually in the case of a plan because you don't actually own the phone yet).
With that said, I will answer the original question -
It is not illegal to install a custom ROM on your phone if you own the phone. However, there are two points to consider - firstly, do you actually own the phone or does your carrier? Secondly, if it includes Google Apps, it is illegal. CyanogenMod project had to remove Google Apps from their ROM's some time ago because of a license breach (the OEM's have to pay Google to release a phone with Google Apps preinstalled).
So the only 100% legal ROM is Cyanogenmod without Google Apps, or your own AOSP compilation without Google Apps. So obviously, Google and the OEM's don't care too much about custom ROM's - because techically, 90% of them have actually broken the law somewhere. It's just not worth their time to enforce these laws, especially since these devices we buy usually have Google Apps pre-loaded already (so it's a legal grey area really, they can't prove anything in the end).
Short info..i don't write any software for XDA. I am from a company who pays for work.
Related
The current state..
The last few days have been difficult. What has become clear now is that the Android Open Source Project is a framework. It’s licensed in such a way so that anyone can take it, modify it to their needs, and redistribute it as they please. Android belongs to everyone. This also means that big companies likes Google, HTC, Motorola, and whomever else can add their own pieces to it and share these pieces under whatever license they choose.
I’ve made lots of changes myself to the AOSP code, and added in code from lots of others. Building a better Droid, right?
The issue that’s raised is the redistribution of Google’s proprietary applications like Maps, GTalk, Market, and YouTube. These are not part of the open source project and are only part of “Google Experience” devices. They are Google’s intellectual property and I intend to respect that. I will no longer be distributing these applications as part of CyanogenMod. But it’s OK. None of the go-fast stuff that I do involves any of this stuff anyway. We need these applications though, because we all rely so heavily on their functionality. I’d love for Google to hand over the keys to the kingdom and let us all have it for free, but that’s not going to happen. And who can blame them?
There are lots of things we can do as end-users and modders, though, without violating anyones rights. Most importantly, we are entitled to back up our software. Since I don’t work with any of these closed source applications directly, what I intend to do is simply ship the next version of CyanogenMod as a “bare bones” ROM. You’ll be able to make calls, MMS, take photos, etc. In order to get our beloved Google sync and applications back, you’ll need to make a backup first. I’m working on an application that will do this for you.
The idea is that you’ll be able to Google-ify your CyanogenMod installation, with the applications and files that shipped on YOUR device already. Or, you can just use the basic ROM if you want. It will be perfectly functional if you don’t use the Google parts. I will include an alternative app store (SlideMe, or AndAppStore, not decided yet) with the basic ROM so that you can get your applications in case you don’t have a Google Experience device.
I’ll have more updates soon as I get all the code hammered out.
Thanks for all the support thru all of this.
http://www.cyanogenmod.com/home/the-current-state
The stuff Dreams are really made of....
I knew! Where there's a will there's a way! You can't keep a real boss down! Cyanogen I look forward to playing with this new stuff in the works. Rage on brother rage on, I for one honestly didn't want to leave android really, but I will continue to research back-up plans in case Google has anymore monkey wrenches laying around itching to be thrown...Good luck Cyanogen. We all owe you donations...real recognizes real! Dueces
This is great news Thank you!
fkn awesome!
this exactly what i thought and hoped would happen. everyone got in a tizy over nothing. so we have to back up before we flash which is just another way that the basic moder like myself can better understand the phone.
Does this means we need to wipe every time we flash a new rom?
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone already has it.
Great
This sounds good, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think they got upset when the new market app was released before they could get it out. They had to do something, but I think it will die down.
don't go there
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
ei8htohms said:
Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I posted this in another thread but it would seem to be pertinent to here too:
Loccy said:
Let's face it, strictly speaking, all ROMs are warez.
Personally I'm surprised that it wasn't the Hero devs who got into trouble first, but this was all just a matter of time. I never understood the bizarre fixation that cropped up recently with QuickOffice and everyone going "omfg it's warez can't include it in romz!!!111!1one!". Why QuickOffice and not, say HTC_IME, or Work Email, or any number of other binary blobs that ROM cookers include as a matter of course now that have been "acquired" from non-orthodox source?
The Hero ROMs, let's face it, give people a means of "turning" their old phone into the latest and greatest HTC device. Each stable Hero ROM on the Dream/Magic potentially means a Hero device purchase lost. HTC are being far more hit in the pocket than Google are here - which is why I'm surprised the cease and desist wasn't directed at them.
I do think, however, this site and the people who run it are going to have to pick a side at some point. Either the position is "this is a site for developers, and as long as copyrighted material is not hosted on here in a fashion that would make us liable*, we will not suppress the work of individual devs". Or, their position is "no copyrighted material in any form, be that in the form to links to offsite storage repositories (eg. Rapidshare), or any other method". XDA doesn't *need* to do this in order to ensure the site does not get into legal hot water. I suspect they *might* do it, however, as some kind of misguided moral stance (and in my view the QuickOffice preoccupation was an example of just this). But in my opinion if they choose the latter then XDA is over as a site for realistic Android ROM development (and indeed, Windows Mobile and other OSes, if they apply the same standards across all their boards).
* elaborating on what I mean here - if people attach zips directly to their posts, and those zips are stored on the XDA servers, then XDA as a site is potentially liable. Alternatively, if instead people give a URL or a search string whereby people can find a ROM, but those files are not physically stored on XDA, they are not - any more than Google is liable for the many copyrighted MP3s you can find links to via their search engine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
ei8htohms said:
Mods: please remove.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
kudos to cyanogen!
Loccy said:
If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think common U.S. practice is: if you speak freely, you get called names by people until you either cry or shoot them, thus proving to everyone that your original point is invalid.
But XDA has always had a policy of "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok." If memory serves, the site is in the Netherlands, and is subject to EU laws as to copyright, etc. I think that's important to remember when it comes to such things, since the EU laws as to intellectual property are in flux and not quite the same as those in the US or UK.
But the official policy is available in one of the toplevel forums here:
Flar said:
Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.
Last edited by Flar; 17th January 2007 at 10:14 AM..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone has an opinion, and they have, or should have, the right to decide for themselves what is correct. I am on the side of Cyanogen. I do not think what he did caused any harm or loss of revenue to anyone. We can not always have our way though, and I think that's the case here. I don't know him, but I do think he's smart enough to keep doing what he is EXTREMELY good at without putting himself in a bad position. It's just a stumbling block to get past. We are puting a lot of effort into pointing fingers and throwing around ideas, but if we placed this much energy into finding a fuctional solution, we might get past it a whole buch faster. A good army fights the war, not the battle.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But every single ROM on here is warez to some extent or another! Certainly (just for example, I'm not picking on anyone specific here) Drizzy doesn't own the IPR for the contents of his Hero ROMs. I'm pretty sure the WinMo ROMs aren't being posted by Microsoft. If the policy is that "warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery", they're not doing much of a job, are they - every other post is "warez", if you take a strict interpretation.
I suppose I'm saying that "warez is in the eye of the beholder". I fully endorse the attitude "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok" - but I can't help thinking that relaxed attitude has been firmed up of late for whatever reason, given the QuickOffice oddness. I'm pretty sure no-one who own the IPR for QuickOffice was ever in touch (although do correct me if I'm wrong), so why the odd fixation recently?
Bottom line: stick to the attitudes and approaches that have made this site what it is, please don't start getting over zealous when there's no reason to.
Honestly did this need another topic though? I mean I'm all for good news like this, but add it on to one of the many topics that are out there. -.- (ready for flaming)
easy now
Loccy said:
The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, I'm not demanding anything. I politely requested that the mods remove a suggestion that clearly seeks to circumvent the policies of XDA: We won't distribute warez. The poster knew the suggestion was specifically aimed at getting around the XDA policy, otherwise there would be no reason for a P2P distribution alternative in the first place.
A key component of intellectual property and copyright laws (at least in the US) is that the holder of the copyright must act to defend the copyright to some reasonable extent (no, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what this entails exactly). Now that Google has acted to defend their copyrights in these instances, the line is clear. Google apps are paid apps (licensed to the handset manufacturers or service providers) and are not free to distribute without a license. Consequently, there shouldn't be much further debate about the fact that these are warez and are not to be distributed on or through XDA.
I'm not trying to attack anyone (the original poster, ROM devs or certainly yourself), but I am interested in XDA maintaining the high ground here and continuing to operate in a respectful and respectable manner.
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
te5ter said:
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair point. Maybe we should take the "warez is in the eye of the beholder" debate to this thread. I do actually think it's a fascinating debate, personally. Oh, incidentally, just re-read my earlier post, and want to apologise to ei8htohms - I didn't mean to come off quite so brusque.
First, I'm very happy that there seems to be a workaround that Cyanogen feels comfortable in using.
However, I see it as a band-aid to a much larger problem. Yes, it addresses those few apps that Google specifically mentioned. But there seems to be potential future conflicts that could adversely affect this whole Android community.
What about all the other apps in there? The Camera/Camcorder/Gallery app for instance. The UI? Other HTC bits? And the biggie, the Search component? Does Google also lay claim to unified search, the widget, the particular framework involved in that?
I don't know the answer to that, I'm just asking. So much is left unanswered, I just feel this is only the beginning. For now, I guess it may be enough. But it still leaves so much up in the air.
Now the 2nd major issue: Cyanogen should be commended for taking the high road here and doing his best to adhere to Google's current request. I think we all know that there was never ever any question that no one saw this coming. It came from left field and shocked everyone beyond belief.
But will other rom devs be as diligent as Cyanogen? Will theme developers adhere to this? And with all of these added steps required to get a functioning "Google Experience", consider the flood of newbie questions this forum is about to endure. We all thought "brick" and "hardspl" questions were tedious at best ... prepare yourselves for the onslought of mass confusion. That fun has just begun.
I still believe the burden lies with Google to make this right. I'm not saying they should make their apps open source by any means. I'm just saying that there must be a way for Google to allow the inclusion of their apps (perhaps a different license or maybe some encryption trick that protects the apps from modification <I don't know, I'm not that smart>). Google needs to step up to the plate in this. They also need to save-face and stifle this PR nightmare. Android does not need this, Google does not need this, HTC does not need this, carriers do not need this, Cyanogen does not need this, and users do not need this. Growth of the entire Android project is simply too important. I see this as speed bump. They just made the bump too big and it needs to be shaved down some so everyone can get it over without damaging anything else.
this is great news indeed. can't wait to see what is to come!
As you all know we all love having our custom roms on our HTC devices, it makes them much faster and has many more applications and content!
But the truth is, is all this legal?
I wanted to hear it out straight from the horses mouth so i went straight to the big guys, Google INCs Android.
Dissapointingly on their website thye have no Contact Us or e-mail so i just browsed about.
What i found out?
I found out that Android is a free, open source Os so any one can come in, get an SDK and develop some apps.
What i didn't find out?
What i did not find out is it flashing or creating roms is legal.
So i went up to the guys who gave Android a try, HTC!
I asked them exactly this:
Is flashing custom Android roms legal on the HTC Hero/HTC Android phones?
This is because Android is a free open soruce fully customisable mobile platfrm created by google INC.
Thank you
They said:, well Terry from HTC said:
Dear Blazr Thank you for your enquiry about Android devices This is how we keep these devices up to date and current. What happens is that google inc release these Roms to us and we make HTC Rom updates from them, so they are 100% legal. If these steps have not helped, please let me know by responding using the link provided and I will be happy to check again for you. Best regards, Terry Snelling HTC customer support team HTC Corp. Global Service Division http://www.htc.com/europe/CA_Hotline.aspx
Then i asked my question again:
No i am asking if flashing UNOFFICAL CUSTOM MADE ROMS are legal, not flashinggoogles, please can you reply
And they said this:
Dear Blazr Thank you for your enquiry about Rom updates If you dont update to rom from www.HTC.com, or your providers website, then this will be a illegal rom and will lose your warranty. If these steps have not helped, please let me know by responding using the link provided and I will be happy to check again for you. Best regards, Terry Snelling HTC customer support team HTC Corp. Global Service Division http://www.htc.com/europe/CA_Hotline.aspx
Well i aint sure if this helped but there you go,
They said that
1 Flashing a rom not from HTC or Google is ILLEGAL
2 And that it will ruin your warranty
So if youre someone who doesn't care but wants the best from his device, like me, then continue supporting custom rom makers.
But if you are someone, like my aint, who LOVES their warranty and hates hacking and 'this nonsense,' they say. Then stick with Android 2.0.
But What do you think,
Thats what i would like to know!
Please respond and give your opiion,
Regards
Sorry if this is long
This is nothing new, we know this for already years. They (MS, HTC, etc.) tolerate it.
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
Meekel said:
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
djn541 said:
I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.. in addition, the email said an "illegal rom" not that it was illegal to flash a rom
Meekel said:
Correct.. in addition, the email said an "illegal rom" not that it was illegal to flash a rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. In the e-mail and "illegal rom" is a rom that does not originat from google itself, HTC (or other manufacturer), or your carrier. illegal roms, "cooked Roms" are only illegal in the sense that you will void your warranty. Not that you will go to prison.
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
DaveTheTytnIIGuy said:
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said. Kudos to you
DaveTheTytnIIGuy said:
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said man, well said. They wouldn't track you down cause you flashed a rom but if some how, what are the likes of this but, a clever police man checked out your phone then we may be introuble. But thats what i a saying cause Modacos rom has google applications in it i think..
Non the less, what they have said is that it is illegal to post custom roms with their applications in it, so its sort of legal to flash your own rom without the need of googles stuff.
djn541 said:
I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly, if the thing breaks from manufactors defects then i cant return it and have tp pay to get it fixed otherwise i must say hello to insurance, which i aint sure how much it is on the Hero.
Meekel said:
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, it just breaks the manufactors agreement but they say its illegal, its like putting CFW on a PSP or Wii.??
Also if you piad 400 of your great british pounds or american bucks then you should be able to do what you like to it, when you like to it, (except be a stupid p!rate)..
blazr said:
True, it just breaks the manufactors agreement but they say its illegal, its like putting CFW on a PSP or Wii.??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disgaree with this statement purely on the fact that in the UK no one has been prosecuted for chipping/modding a games console.
They have only be prosecuted for selling these devices..
I understand your point though..
Meekel said:
I disgaree with this statement purely on the fact that in the UK no one has been prosecuted for chipping/modding a games console.
They have only be prosecuted for selling these devices..
I understand your point though..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe not, but I'm fairly sure UK law states that "circumventing protection" is a crime. Flashing a ROM isn't illegal, but HSPL/SSPL is as you're circumventing the protection which prevents you from flashing.
Distributing ROMs is also illegal as you are making/distributing copies of someone else's source code.
So I think that as long as you don't use HSPL/SSPL and don't distribute your ROMs it wouldn't be illegal. But then again, I'm no solicitor (lawyer for you yanks )
Blade0rz said:
Maybe not, but I'm fairly sure UK law states that "circumventing protection" is a crime. Flashing a ROM isn't illegal, but HSPL/SSPL is as you're circumventing the protection which prevents you from flashing.
Distributing ROMs is also illegal as you are making/distributing copies of someone else's source code.
So I think that as long as you don't use HSPL/SSPL and don't distribute your ROMs it wouldn't be illegal. But then again, I'm no solicitor (lawyer for you yanks )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree that distributing ROMs is illegal as you would be using IP from whatever company it is therefore would be breaking the law..
Ack, it's a complicated issue ain't it..?
Your very right. Its a very complicated issue as it falls under many categories. And the fact that laws are very different in different countries. This issue can be compared with lots of cases.
I will try to resume it this way:
1) When you purchase an electronic device containing software, you own the hardware, but only are licensing the usage of the provided software. This means you cannot do whatever you want with the device, i.e. you may not reverse engineer the software (at least in most western countries).
2) Flashing offical ROM's, which are provided by the manufacturer to be used by customers are not illegal, or it would be the manufacturer's responsability if he did not license the software for distribution. If the customer bricks the device while flashing it, he way lose warranty.
3) Flashing unofficial ROM's: the legal aspect of it is not concerning the act of flashing, but the question if you are entitled to a valid license of all included software modules. In most cases you are not. Even if you are entitled to the software modules contained in the unoffical ROM, flashing it to the device definitly voids the warranty. The question is: can the manufacturer prove you used an unofficial ROM. In most cases he can't, specially if you flash back to an offical ROM prior to sending the faulty device in.
4) In practical terms: as long as you download the unoffical ROM without spreading it yourself (aka using a P2P client) and as long as you don't offer the unoffical ROM yourself, it is very unlikely that you risk any legal trouble. The reason being that the offense has a very small value compared to the difficulty to actually prove anything. No policeman has the knowledge and authority to check the firmware of your phone...
However, in case of malfunction, the manufacturer can always refuse warranty if he can prove that an unoffical ROM has been flashed to the device. Again, often manufacturers like HTC seem to be pretty customer-friendly. I have a Blue Angel that broke within warranty after I flashed a custom ROM (was conincidence and not the ROM's fault). I got a free repair, but the device was returned with the latest official HTC ROM. Fair enough.
5) What you should be carefull about: take care not to publish (or at least in a traceable way) unofficial firmware containing third party software which has not been licensed, i.e. using a cracked version.
6) Final thoughts: As has been stated here already, I believe that a forum like this one is probably monitored by people from Microsoft and HTC (both companies being the reason for this forum to exist in first place). Because it has been pretty clean and basically providing corrected ROM's to entusiasts, no real harm is done to either company and perhaps even quite the opposite: any problem you experience on an HTC phone, search for a resultion in Google and you end up here. I think this is the best support forum any company could desire, so why make a war against it...
Cheers,
vma
Well said vma
Deffinition of illegal,
1. not according to or authorized by law
2. not sanctioned by official rules
I think in the context we're discussing here #1 does NOT apply, but #2 does.
I don't think any law has been written that makes it a crime to flash a custom ROM to your phone. However according to some "official" rules it is illegal. But when you commit an illegal act that is a violation of rules, it is not punishible by law. No, the punishment is handed down by the manufacturer and that is the voiding of your warranty.
It's hard to commit a truly illegal crime against yourself. Can you steal from yourself? Can you hit yourself in the head and be prosecuted for assault? The only one I can think of is suicide. But have you ever seen the crime of suicide prosecuted? (I'm not talking about assisted suicide here)
Interesting discussion, and just my 2 cents,
@dirkbonn:
Your line of thinking is wrong. I am by no means a lawyer or what so ever, BUT: the flashing of cooked ROM's is illegal because:
1) It required REVERSE ENGINEERING of software to be done. Defined in most countries as illegal.
2) It involves the use of unlicensed software. Defined in most countries as illegal.
3) It involves in many cases the removal of locks imposed by the operator. Again, this is illegal, because you accepted a contract in which you commited to refrain from doing that.
What some people don't seem to understand is: when you purchase the device, it comes with software which you only license for use. You do not own the software. Also, you are only granted to use the provided versions. You cannot assume that you have the right to use a more recent version or a version in another language. The right to decide upon that, belongs to the owner of the intellectual property of the software.
Again, debating about the logic of such laws will not change the law.
To change the law, you need to vote for the right politicians and pressure them to approve laws, you are comfortable with.
In my modest opinion, laws regarding the protection of intellectual property have to quickly be revised, in order to avoid having the whole population commiting offenses and crimes.
Cheers,
vma
Request to HTC
hello everybody. recently I asked HTC about this issue.
Question:
"Dear Sirs and Madams
I wanted to ask you if updating a HTC Touch HD from WM 6.1 to WM 6.5 with a downloaded ROM not from the HTC or Microsoft-Website is illegal or not. For me it is clear that if I do so, I lose my warranty on it, but am I allowed to do so?"
Answer:
"Thank you for contacting us. Installing non official ROM on your devcie will void your warranty . It may also cause problems in funcionality on your device. It is up to you to decide to install any ROM on your device. I trust that this resolves your query, please do not hesitate to contact us again if required."
best regards,
sblubb
Definatly not illegal. Will void your warranty BUT most of the things you get in your warranty are covered by your statutory rights, which you still have.
As an employee of Vodafone UK. I can confirm from a network operators POV, we do NOT refuse warranty exchanges on an Android device that has been rooted or custom ROM'ed as long as the fault is a hardware fault.
This is because Android is open source and it is illegal to try and charge or restrict it.
Windows devices however, we will not do anything if they are not running the stock image. That is because Windows is licensed software that the manufacturers have to pay to use.
Well this could be an issue, saw on the front page when I got on and didn't see it posted so thought I'd let y'all know: http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...otloaders-rooting-manufacturers-carriers.html
If T-Mobile tries this or at&t or whoever I may just switch to some other service
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
I don't think t-mobile would ever do this. Sounds like Verizon being its usual self, greedy.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Uchennadi said:
I don't think t-mobile would ever do this. Sounds like Verizon being its usual self, greedy.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you are in denial...it said it was going to be implemented by the manufacturers, not the carriers...
Interesting, and not surprising. But, we must remember, some of these items are things the carriers would like to implement, and may in fact be testing, but would not necessarily pass legal/contractual muster. For instance, limiting full usage of the service/device just because one roots/modifies a device which he OWNS. Possible, yes; but unless you sign some very specific, insane terms of service agreeing to it beforehand, highly unlikely and definitely not in good faith. Especially when advertising otherwise. This of course assumes no theft of service or other nefarious activities on the carrier's network, which it owns. However, the consumer owns the device.
Now, I could see them making it as hard as possible to prevent rooting/modifying.
Just felt like sharing as this is just another worry in the simple life of owning a cell phone
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Yeah, I wish carriers would concentrate more on customer service and high quality; you know, like traditional values of a good company. It seems now all carriers, and I guess manufacturers to a degree, want to do is lock the consumer into something with marketing and half-truths. It is frustrating as a consumer sometimes. Of course some are worse offenders than others. Thanks for sharing.
Well yes there's no humanity in corporations there's mechanic perfection, if your the one broken piece your out. If you root your phone your warranties voided. Now if you root your phone, you don't have a phone yay! its ridiculous how companies try to control your property.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Honestly.. this might be google's wanting.. They say they are tightening the reins on licensing android to have better control of changes and who does what with the system to reduce "fragmentation" This is one of the reasons why they are not releasing the HC source yet. because they know that people will build the source and run it on devices not meant to run it.
I think we are starting to see the end of google being so "open"
Let's just hope they dont try to lock things down as much as apple does.. but even if they do people will ALWAYS find ways..
Think about it.. if they decide to make it MUCH harder or impossible to root your devices.. then there is little to no chance you will be able to run a "custom" rom.. I dont think it will be impossible but it will be hard work for the devs I'm sure.. So if you cant install a custom rom and have to rely on your carrier (who will now have a license agreement with google that says anything the carrier wants to change has to go through google for approval)for updates that further eliminates "fragmentation"
I really think google not releasing the HC source ad about their new licensing terms means there are big changes brewing..
Read these forums for a while and you'll notice countless threads where people completely screwed up their phones trying to root them or flash a splash screen or whatever. What do they do? They make the manufacturer pay for their mistakes. Even if they happen to have a margin of 100% on these phones, which I doubt, every user error warranty claim that happens completely erodes that profit. I'm not saying that this isn't a little unfair, android is indeed designed atm to be open to the end user, but maybe we should be placing a little bit on the shoulders of those people who come here and screw up their phones due to negligence then turn around and get an exchange at the cost of the community...
Honestly I wish they would deny those claims. Obviously the phone is linked to an account. Mark the account as a false warranty claim and close it until the phone is paid for.
graffixnyc said:
Honestly.. this might be google's wanting.. They say they are tightening the reins on licensing android to have better control of changes and who does what with the system to reduce "fragmentation" This is one of the reasons why they are not releasing the HC source yet. because they know that people will build the source and run it on devices not meant to run it.
I think we are starting to see the end of google being so "open"
Let's just hope they dont try to lock things down as much as apple does.. but even if they do people will ALWAYS find ways..
Think about it.. if they decide to make it MUCH harder or impossible to root your devices.. then there is little to no chance you will be able to run a "custom" rom.. I dont think it will be impossible but it will be hard work for the devs I'm sure.. So if you cant install a custom rom and have to rely on your carrier (who will now have a license agreement with google that says anything the carrier wants to change has to go through google for approval)for updates that further eliminates "fragmentation"
I really think google not releasing the HC source ad about their new licensing terms means there are big changes brewing..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I think this may be a little off, as an article just popped up (http://androidandme.com/2011/04/unc...nch-new-market-music-camera-and-gallery-apps/) stating that google was opensourcing all launchers and stock apps in the near future and maybe even updates all out of the market so everyone can have the same launcher and apps on any phone with the android market loaded on it
http://gizmodo.com/5880930/only-ten-days-remain-to-keep-jailbreaking-legal
Thoughts? First I've heard of the issue coming back up.
http://www.xda-developers.com/featu...ilbreaking-will-expire-eff-wants-to-renew-it/
Identical topics are identical.
Well if you jailbreak it now, you can keep it jailbroken after without being illegal. Prospectivity is a great thing
Sent from my Sensation using XDA App
its my device. i deserve the right to do what i want with it. i believe in a person's right to try possibly stupid things as long as it doesn't deny another of their rights. rooting doesn't deny anyone anything. therefore i don't see any good reason why it should be illegal.
According to the thread title we can forget all about this since it's never gonna happen
Surely it can't apply to open source such as android but only closed source such as ios wp7 etcetera?
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Yeah that
thezombiehunter said:
its my device. i deserve the right to do what i want with it. i believe in a person's right to try possibly stupid things as long as it doesn't deny another of their rights. rooting doesn't deny anyone anything. therefore i don't see any good reason why it should be illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AMEN
-Tyler Debel
Btw, my iPhone, my ipod touch is MY DEVICE. I don't give a **** to what they want.. do what you want with your device but don't anoye me
I never get anything like this... Its your device, you bought it so you should be able to do whatever you want with it... I hope it doesn't go through cuz that would be freggin stupid.
.
It will never pass, but if it does, then I'd just download new roms and rooting tools through TOR browser. I mean, Its my phone I bought it, I can do what I want. I am paying AT&T to let them wet their beaks, they should be content.
Danmanlott said:
It will never pass, but if it does, then I'd just download new roms and rooting tools through TOR browser. I mean, Its my phone I bought it, I can do what I want. I am paying AT&T to let them wet their beaks, they should be content.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your right the phone is yours but your only licencing to use the software. There is a huge difference.
I don't see any reason why this won't get extended. Jailbreaking's kind of 'a thing' culturally, imo.
JerleMinara said:
I don't see any reason why this won't get extended. Jailbreaking's kind of 'a thing' culturally, imo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apple likes complete controls and by the terms you agree to it does technically break the tos we all agree to when use an OS. Just because its popular doesn't make it legal. While some OS do look the other way apple will not. Never have and never will
And that is why apple has earned the ire of many geeks and nerds of this generation. They are as reviled as Microsoft was, a decade before. They'll learn once those who they depend on for support, i.e. their customers, abandon them. Some sooner, some later, some never, but they will feel pain in the only place it counts, their pocketbook. Perhaps then, they can reevaluate their attitude toward their customers and the public in general.
zelendel said:
Your right the phone is yours but your only licencing to use the software. There is a huge difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPL says you can do whatever the hell you want as long as you post the source code if you distribute it. There's no legal grounds for legally blocking rooting Android devices, but Apple would be pleased as punch to have iOS jailbreaking become a violation of the DMCA again.
synaesthetic said:
GPL says you can do whatever the hell you want as long as you post the source code if you distribute it. There's no legal grounds for legally blocking rooting Android devices, but Apple would be pleased as punch to have iOS jailbreaking become a violation of the DMCA again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPL only covers the kernel not the OS
Having an argument with a friend, please settle this for us.
Would it be legal for a firm X to buy device Y, flash stock Android and GAPPs on it and then re-sell it? I've been looking for a related read on Google and elsewhere with little to no luck. if you can't be arsed getting into the specifics, could you at least point me into the general direction of such information?
Thanks! :laugh:
Amarali123 said:
Having an argument with a friend, please settle this for us.
Would it be legal for a firm X to buy device Y, flash stock Android and GAPPs on it and then re-sell it? I've been looking for a related read on Google and elsewhere with little to no luck. if you can't be arsed getting into the specifics, could you at least point me into the general direction of such information?
Thanks! :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This could definitely depend on your jurisdiction. Are you in the US?
Amarali123 said:
Having an argument with a friend, please settle this for us.
Would it be legal for a firm X to buy device Y, flash stock Android and GAPPs on it and then re-sell it? I've been looking for a related read on Google and elsewhere with little to no luck. if you can't be arsed getting into the specifics, could you at least point me into the general direction of such information?
Thanks! :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stock android yes it would be fine but you would not be able to include gapps without google's permission. The same reason the CM team was told to remove gapps from their roms as they had not agreement with google.
zelendel said:
Stock android yes it would be fine but you would not be able to include gapps without google's permission. The same reason the CM team was told to remove gapps from their roms as they had not agreement with google.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I'm aware of the CM C&D ordeal, but I thought that has more to do with the fact that it was included along with the ROM itself. Isn't it more like a grey area everytime we flash GAPPs on our own? Strictly speaking, we shouldn't, but we do just fine anyway?
And would it still be considered illegal, if the aforementioned device ran Android/GAPPs already?
Cheers for your time.
P.S. I'm EU based.
Amarali123 said:
Yeah, I'm aware of the CM C&D ordeal, but I thought that has more to do with the fact that it was included along with the ROM itself. Isn't it more like a grey area everytime we flash GAPPs on our own? Strictly speaking, we shouldn't, but we do just fine anyway?
And would it still be considered illegal, if the aforementioned device ran Android/GAPPs already?
Cheers for your time.
P.S. I'm EU based.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The cease and desist CyanogenMod got was a copyright issue. Basically, Google does not technically release their apps for free, instead they are included as a perk within a manufacturer licensing agreement. Think of it like this, Swype came for free with a lot of phones a few years. But, did that give you the right to distribute it for free? No. It was a payed program, and anytime it was installed on a phone Swype expected to get payed. Google applications are in the exact same category, even if manufacturers do not (always?) pay for them directly. When CyanogenMod distributed them, they were in violation of law by not having a license agreement.
As for reselling a device with modded firmware, I do not know of any law that prohibits this. Up until October of last year there were some manufacturers trying to claim jailbreaking was illegal in the USA, but they had very little in the way of legal precedent to back them up. Then, the Librarian of Congress specifically allowed it under the DMCA exeptions.
If you have not broken the law while installing your firmware I am pretty sure you would be completely free to resell that device in your jurisdiction. The only exception I have ever heard of would involve EULAs. If your device comes with a EULA stating that it cannot be resold, or that if it is resold it has to come with factory settings and software, then it gets murky. Not all jurisdictions allow EULAs to take away or modify basic consumer rights. However, at times (especially in the States) courts will uphold the EULA because the user "agreed" to it.