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Cnet just put up a review of the Motorola Atrix, one of the most anticipated smart-phones. AT&T has blocked the ability to download 3rd party apps . "You can't install third-party apps" and goes on to say "No change of heart on third-party applications, as that feature is disabled on the Atrix."
Google's(andy rubin) response is to say let me market decide. I truly agree with this statement but when the carriers are in power (two year contracts) it doesn't let the market work. General consumers dont know know the difference between android phones. Consumer assume since they are getting an android phone, all android phones are the same. This blocking of 3rd party apps creates a bad user experience and users will blame android and not the carriers.
( http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/motorola-atrix-4g-at/4505-6452_7-34468396.html?tag=rvwBody )
Nice find. With that in mind, RIP Motorola.
Sent from the future.
__________________________
The quality of my life would be greatly reduced if I did not have nostrils.
Agree. Its a disgrace. Its a open source os yes. but dont kill core functionalities. Its giving people a bad view on android. Apple would scream bloody blue murder if that happened
That's AT&T for ya!
tangstang said:
That's AT&T for ya!
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various other carriers around the world too.
But they're going to try and make the bootloader dev friendly, right? Don't make me lols.
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
TheForgotten said:
various other carriers around the world too.
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I see the rogers in your avatar.... oops, I'm current on the US carriers but as far as the other carriers around the world I'm not 100% up to speed. So screw all those carriers too!
Yea it sucks when they do it but, well you know they must get a cut from doing it.
If they didn't there wouldn't be so much fragmentation on the market.
Captivate 2.2.1 Paragon
With that in mind, always buy unlocked phones!
unbelievable how can they come with such a thing
"- boss I have an idea to boost sales: let restrict users from installing third party apps..."
"- this is a stoning idea! let's do it... "
This is pretty horrible when you buy a phone and expect it to function like every other phone that has the same OS.
With maybe Telecom's actually trying to invent their own App stores, this may be ATT's push into that direction.
copius said:
This is pretty horrible when you buy a phone and expect it to function like every other phone that has the same OS.
With maybe Telecom's actually trying to invent their own App stores, this may be ATT's push into that direction.
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sure, in Europe orange is doing the same.
BazookaAce said:
Nice find. With that in mind, RIP Motorola.
Sent from the future.
__________________________
The quality of my life would be greatly reduced if I did not have nostrils.
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RIP Motorola indeed. I bought the original Droid day it came out...Now I have the X and it's not the same experience (Of course until I changed Roms and multiple other things). But I was perfectly contented with the original, but in order to get that I HAD to change it. Verizon force fed me apps that I simply did not want. So it's also not just ATT.
and that is why we have XDA Developers... right?
Omnichron said:
and that is why we have XDA Developers... right?
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Amen my friend! Before this forum I was lost and confused. XDA provided me light and guidance in the land of the lost known as MotoBlur. I found a map to the world of FlyX and apeX and others.
Thank you XDA. Thank you so much.
RIP Motorola
We can get past this.
What's with all the " RIP Motorola " Hackers, modders, overclockers etc probably account for less then 4% of the market. They are going to make money regardless with the Atrix being the first Dual Core phone released...it will do plenty well, no need to worry guys, lol.
As for the 3rd party apps being locked, honestly, how many people here who will (most likely won’t) admit that you bricked your phone doing something silly and then used the “ manufacture’s warranty “ to replace it? Good for them for locking it down if noob’s jump in head first without knowing what they are doing. It might even bring the cost of phone’s down and bring down that ETF! I don’t care to pay for anyone else’s mistakes. Download the app to your computer and transfer it to your phone if you want it that bad.
Motorola is not going anywhere and they have top quality devices. In my opinion, best on the market! Don’t be mad because you can’t afford one
Carriers are taking over Market billing and earn their cut, hence why they're blocking non-market apps. That said, it won't be long before Atrix is rooted and sideloading enabled.
Have little patience and faith in xda community, will ya?
I simply can't believe how US carriers get away with 2 year contracts. It's simply retarded how they take advantage of their customers.
Sent from my Legend using XDA App
People are constantly modifying stock ROMs, taking drivers from leaked builds, putting apps in their ROMs, ect... And it makes me wonder, is any of this technically illegal? Maybe not "directly" illegal, I'm thinking "indirectly" illegal. For example, the way installing OS X on a hackintosh is illegal cuz you violate some of Apple's rules or whatever. Get what I mean? Are we breaking the rules and violating a ton of companies' work?
Is there anything wrong with all the ROMing and rooting that goes on with Android?
Edit: Oops, this thread is probably in the wrong place. Sorry. It might belong in "General" or something
Well,I think that flashing roms by itself isn't illegal,as Android is open-source.Messing with locked bootloaders could be considered illegal,and as punishment we are deprived of our warranties.I also think that porting close-source stuff(UIs etc like Sense) that are the property of companies is also illegal,but they do have a way to protect that stuff well enough...
tolis626 said:
Well,I think that flashing roms by itself isn't illegal,as Android is open-source.Messing with locked bootloaders could be considered illegal,and as punishment we are deprived of our warranties.I also think that porting close-source stuff(UIs etc like Sense) that are the property of companies is also illegal,but they do have a way to protect that stuff well enough...
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Hmm. That sucks. Basically every ROM out there is probably using something illegally taken out of some stock or leaked ROM or whatever. Doesn't it seem that way?
Yumunum said:
Hmm. That sucks. Basically every ROM out there is probably using something illegally taken out of some stock or leaked ROM or whatever. Doesn't it seem that way?
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No, not really. I think that the whole android system is based on open source (AOSP), including "stock" roms.
There are tons of roms developed directly from google's aosp source, taking nothing illegally- on the opposite- contributing to the project...
You can google or look in wikipedia for more info about android open source project.
Why, do you see any problem?
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
Im calling the Police!!!! Your Going Down Town to Google Jail!
mattfox27 said:
Im calling the Police!!!! Your Going Down Town to Google Jail!
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Lol, my concern isn't anything like that. I'm not afraid of getting "caught" or whatever. It's morals. And that's a whole different discussion, I'm not going to get into it ;P
Stuff that is used in custom roms that comes from paid work is ILLEGAL in any way.
Drivers as sample:
- a lot of guys working in company's where the code is done by paid work - used in custom roms is illegal because the small letters from the law
- how to get these cooks by the law. It is hard but the evidence is sampled every day, believe me.
- every cook who is using leaked or stock stuff without the permission from the owner is illegal. Oh s**t XDA has to close a lot of threads very fast, because it is illegal .
Sense is the next sample:
ok HTC is doing nothing at the moment, because they have a profit on that. But in nature it is illegal in any way
Also the Samsung leaked stuff:
Samsung has a lot of profit in that way, but wait for the day when they are bigger or equal as Apple, they will go against that.
Apple:
is the best sample. Ok Apple's politics is s**t in my eyes, but they have the right on his site. Every jail break as sample is illegal in any way.
At the end, i had asked my lawyer about all this leaked and stock stuff, modding and cookking (not a local small one, a big player in our world company). He shows me some facts and normally we all use illegal stuff in the eys of the law. And a normaly good froum, so as XDA, can't change anything on that.
mike2nl said:
Stuff that is used in custom roms that comes from paid work is ILLEGAL in any way.
Apple:
is the best sample. Ok Apple's politics is s**t in my eyes, but they have the right on his site. Every jail break as sample is illegal in any way.
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not in usa jailbreaking is legal,downloading paid apps for free,that's another story
Illegal or not once you buy the phone its up to you how you use it
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
If you buy a phone, it is now yours and you can do everything with it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Jay794 said:
Illegal or not once you buy the phone its up to you how you use it
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Dennisalex said:
If you buy a phone, it is now yours and you can do everything with it.
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When you buy a phone then you are right, but what is with the millions of people who has a contract with her provider and a locked phone, or a phone gift or a phone with the quarter of the price....
Then it is illegal, because you don't are the owner of that phone. You have to pay for it with the contract. At the end of that contract the phone is yours not earlier.
The same thing is when you buy a second hand phone with all this stuff, it is illegal and you have to format it (in simple word *lol).
@xxmarkosxx:
that was new for me that amercia has given it free and that by the power of Apple. I will ask the american lawyer of our company and will come back for that. In two weeks i am there and then i will ask.
The most active illegal activity in custom roms is people porting closed-source vendor apparently like Sony Walkman or HTC Keyboard to other brands. Any kind of reverse engineering on these closed source files is a breach of license.
Sent from Xperia Play (R800a) with Tapatalk
Sorry to say, not all the time. Because i know what i have written and what is payed and what not. But in some cases you are right Dan.
In some images i have added special code to see back my work. So some things can be illegal
mike2nl said:
Sorry to say, not all the time. Because i know what i have written and what is payed and what not. But in some cases you are right Dan.
In some images i have added special code to see back my work. So some things can be illegal
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Click to collapse
There's no such thing as owning software unless you created it yourself from scratch. Even if it's free/free (libre, as in free beer) open source, you don't own the software. You still have to follow the laws of the license. And even if you did create the software yourself, you are still bound my the license agreement of whatever IDE('s)/SDK('s) you used to write it. (E.g. it is illegal to sell software, or use software in a commercial environment, if it was created in Microsoft Visual Studio Express).
This goes the same for apps that are not open source, e.g. Xperia S Launcher or HTC Keyboard, and many apps on the Play Store. When you bought the app/device, you do not own the software, but you are legally permitted to use the software as defined in the license agreement. 95% of closed-source license agreements deny the permission to reverse engineer these files, so as soon as you use APKTool on an APK that is not open-source, you've breached copyright law.
With that said, most OEM's don't seem to care too much about XDA and various other website developments about porting proprietary vendor packages to other devices. They just don't have time or resources to chase these people down and try to sue them (I mean, they're not Apple heh) - it'd cost more money than they'd feasibly get. OTOH, some developers, such as Xiaomi (MIUI ROM creators from China), actually congratulate and share public releases of their closed-source packages being ported to non-MIUI devices and ROM's.
If you do your research, there is no argument to stand against it being illegal - it's a fact. But that's not to say it's wrong, and not to say the OEM's are too bothered about it. After all, they get a bit of publicity about it (some time ago, I switched from a HTC to a Sony device because I was much more impressed with Xperia's UI and stock apps which I used on a hacked HTC device).
Regarding bootloader/unlocking/rooting, not all manufacturers demonize it. Sony provide an official means to do it - as long as the provider has not blocked bootloader unlocking (which then requires specialized service - as said, this is usually in the case of a plan because you don't actually own the phone yet).
With that said, I will answer the original question -
It is not illegal to install a custom ROM on your phone if you own the phone. However, there are two points to consider - firstly, do you actually own the phone or does your carrier? Secondly, if it includes Google Apps, it is illegal. CyanogenMod project had to remove Google Apps from their ROM's some time ago because of a license breach (the OEM's have to pay Google to release a phone with Google Apps preinstalled).
So the only 100% legal ROM is Cyanogenmod without Google Apps, or your own AOSP compilation without Google Apps. So obviously, Google and the OEM's don't care too much about custom ROM's - because techically, 90% of them have actually broken the law somewhere. It's just not worth their time to enforce these laws, especially since these devices we buy usually have Google Apps pre-loaded already (so it's a legal grey area really, they can't prove anything in the end).
Short info..i don't write any software for XDA. I am from a company who pays for work.
http://www.androidauthority.com/google-issues-statement-regarding-support-for-cdma-devices-50545/
I'm done. More fragmentation.
Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk
qhinton said:
http://www.androidauthority.com/google-issues-statement-regarding-support-for-cdma-devices-50545/
I'm done. More fragmentation.
Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk
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Blame your carrier for using bs CDMA...
lowandbehold is right here. Google didn't create the cdma vs. gsm thing you guys have going on there in the US.
.
Thread moved. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.
its not our fault that cdma carriers are so much better than GSM ones here in the US. google shouldn't be doing this to its users, it's not like they're any less good as developers just because they choose the superior network (in some areas.)
Sent from my ICS SCH-i500
sageDieu said:
google shouldn't be doing this to its users
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Did you even read the article? Google can't do anything about it. The carriers have created a situation where a ROM cannot be created without them signing the phone apk. In other words, your verizon nexus already isn't AOSP because some of its core functionality is reliant on custom, locked, carrier-installed crap.
This whole issue could have been avoided by verizon/sprint allowing/providing unsigned cell network apks. I'm quite sure google has asked for this by now. The carriers chose to be dicks about it, they chose to make timely google updates impossible, so they don't get google support. Lay the blame where it belongs.
This is why i hate CDMA.. though they have good signal, they are worst in this case.
The levels of fragmentation are incredible, really. And Google happily continues to turn a blind eye to it all. It's sad, really, because Android has some real potential if it were handled better.
Sent from my SGH-I897
i'm not sure why you guys are *****ing. from a PR perspective, Google did the right thing, hands down. Told you what was going on, and stated that they are going to work on it. just because they didn't say they were going after the carriers in a vicious way you guys are mad. ridiculous...
As another said before, don't blame google, blame the carrier. they are the ones that are messing it up
Always the carriers fault. Sigh.
-Sent from my Rezound-
ridethisbike said:
As another said before, don't blame google, blame the carrier. they are the ones that are messing it up
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It's Google's fault that the carriers are in a position to mess it up.
Sent from my SGH-I897
Hmm somehow Apple doesn't have this problem. Updates available day 1 for both GSM and CDMA phones. Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers since Android is Trojan horse for data mining and mobile advertising while iOS puts consumers first. Truth is Google doesn't care about fragmentation, they're focused on volume at all costs. Since Google(and everyone else with half a brain) are well aware that no single Android phone will come close to iPhone sales they need to get as many manufacturers on board as possible, which necessitates letting carriers run the show. Great for Google since they get to sell your personal data to advertisers, but sucks for the consumer.
alex2792 said:
Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers
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Well, not exactly. They're making the decision to give the power to carriers rather than give it to consumers like Apple and Microsoft do. They could choose otherwise, but they really don't care about you and me.
My two cents tells me Google can fix a lot of issues that Android has by, closing it, not making it Open Source. Then there would be an even bigger cry out towards Google. By closing Android, Google can control every aspect of Android, as they see fit, forcing OEMs to adhere to Google's strict guidelines and policies. That is not what Google had envisioned for the Android OS. Instead Google gave OEM's and Carriers the infrastructure,sources, and starting point to create their own vision.
Giving these Companies free rein to create, ultimately Google gets what they wanted, more Google searches (form devices), creating more revenue for Google. So you might say that Android was not created for the consumer, as much as another revenue stream. Google just needs to keep Android appealing enough to the consumers, and allow OEMs and Carriers to do the rest. I'm surprised that the carriers don't provide Google with the ability to sign the .apks themselves, that would take the responsibility away from the Carriers, and solely on Google's shoulders.
Just thinking out loud hear.
sageDieu said:
its not our fault that cdma carriers are so much better than GSM ones here in the US. google shouldn't be doing this to its users, it's not like they're any less good as developers just because they choose the superior network (in some areas.)
Sent from my ICS SCH-i500
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^This
Not all of us live in an area where we are free to choose between GSM and CDMA. I live in a rural area where At&t reception can be spotty, T-mobile and Sprint are almost non-existent and Verizon gets a signal pretty much everywhere.
google confirmed with the verge that it will push updates to verizon galaxy nexus! ... please don't jump to conclusions.
alex2792 said:
Hmm somehow Apple doesn't have this problem. Updates available day 1 for both GSM and CDMA phones. Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers since Android is Trojan horse for data mining and mobile advertising while iOS puts consumers first. Truth is Google doesn't care about fragmentation, they're focused on volume at all costs. Since Google(and everyone else with half a brain) are well aware that no single Android phone will come close to iPhone sales they need to get as many manufacturers on board as possible, which necessitates letting carriers run the show. Great for Google since they get to sell your personal data to advertisers, but sucks for the consumer.
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Click to collapse
Android is not a trojan horse, seriously most of your comments on android seem very negative and often just apple rhetoric.
Android has to run on lots of phones so its hard to unify that whereas iphone is just one. Very easy to update one phone model whose only difference is carrier type as opposed to thousands of different ones.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
The only way to fix this fragmentation is for google to move to a more apple like approach to selling phones. If they locked down android to where manufacturers had to meet certain specs before they could use android or had to follow certain rules, then there would ultimately be less choice for the consumers. I think what makes android great is the wide range of options we all have, even if that means we have to wait a while for the carriers to upgrade us to the newest OS. We're all aware that when we buy these phones they have a chance of lagging behind the "newest and greatest thing". Just take Android for what it is, a diverse platform that is very fragmented, because thats not going to change.
mistermentality said:
Android is not a trojan horse, seriously most of your comments on android seem very negative and often just apple rhetoric.
Android has to run on lots of phones so its hard to unify that whereas iphone is just one. Very easy to update one phone model whose only difference is carrier type as opposed to thousands of different ones.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So if Android's number one goal isn't enabling Google to push "personalized" ads then what is it? I'm negative about Android because Google places carrier interests ahead of the consumer resulting in shoddy user experience. Apple isn't perfect and their propensity to omit seemingly basic features does annoy me at times,but even with that said the iPhone offers a far more pleasurable experience. When I use an Apple product I can see that they really put a lot of thought into creating a first rate experience(which is why they have a ridiculous retention rate) while Android OEMs are just trying to push something out the door. For example used the Galaxy Nexus for a few weeks and I've encountered a ton of issues with reception,random data drop outs and abysmal battery life even with 4G turned off, which simply don't exist on the iPhone. I'm not an Apple fanatic, just someone who enjoys solid, reliable products that "just work" without me needing to spend hours tweaking ****.
wrong forum..
Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?
Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.
They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.
thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.
It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".
You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.
Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium
Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!
How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser
MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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Click to collapse
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.
thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
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Click to collapse
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.
MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.
It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."
thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.
Android is supposed to be open, customizable and free, vs iOS. That's why I'm making the switch (plus I couldn't stand the screen size of iPhone).
But now I realize Samsung is behaving like Apple:
- Knox highly discourages (prevents) rooting, just like Apple tries to prevent jailbreaks
- Firmware can't be downgraded, just like on iOS too
Part 1 is still acceptable under the pretext of corporate security, especially since end users generally have no issues getting warranty even with Knox tripped.
But part 2 is simply inconceivable IMO. No downgrading is just ridiculous. It's way worse than part 1 because at least users can choose to void warranty and ignore Knox, but part 2 is maintaining an iron control.
That is the really stupid bit. I have been upgrading, downgrading when I wanted to since the galaxy s days and now this not being able to downgrade really ppppppeeee me off. Didn't care about Knox and tripped it.... But...?... Let's set what's out there come September when my contract runs out
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When I read threads on how which firmware versions are rootable (without tripping knox) and which aren't, they remind me of apple blogs posting about which iOS versions are jailbreak safe.
Can't believe I'm still gonna buy a note 3!
fterh said:
When I read threads on how which firmware versions are rootable (without tripping knox) and which aren't, they remind me of apple blogs posting about which iOS versions are jailbreak safe.
Can't believe I'm still gonna buy a note 3!
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I get it. The hardware is still a good value, but I'll probably look elsewhere in the future.
These companies get too big and start to dictate what the user wants instead of listening... And when they are sitting pretty on top they tend to stop developing new innovations because "They are the best" and then the item tends to stagnate with VERY little actual developement thrown in. Anything new is a kneejerk reaction to the next up and comer for king of the heap....
They will still say it is for the best of the user but in reality its because they're too damn lazy to work. Then comes the copyright everything attitudeand the litigation and more effort is spent suing others for copyright einfingement than making the latest and greatest, what was Apple"s big thing a while back, oh yeah, lets make it white....
Works well for them and most users who have a hard time working out which end to speak in but not for those who actually want to own, use and control what their device actually does....
Take a lil bit, bit by bit til theres nothing less
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It's not just Samsung others are going the same route, LG for instance says it got something similar to KNOX in the pipeline, HTC makes it difficult as possible to root their phones, Sony is also going to follow a similar path to Samsung & LG as they all want the corp market to buy their smartphones and feel safe, sod the general consumer that not interested in any of this.
The option in the near future if you want to tinker without tripping something or blowing an efuse is to buy a Nexus.
Its also because of the data breach that chinese and NSA are doing. They want our phones and its data to be safe. Not like modified system files with backdoors and trojans. So its for our own safety. Yes u can always change the layouts, launchers and other stuff. But changing kernel and rooting devices to use system procedures. These are just for developers and those who actually know abt stuff. Not for the common man.
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Because Samsung need sale by millions on US like Apple but must be very Secured:
Quote from another post:
...The Knox Bootloader that is the first from a new type of bootloaders, block and not permit many things.
To understand what is the Knox and is bootloader and kernel read this:
https://www.samsungknox.com/en/overview/technical-details See also the video How to Use on it...
On the first attachment we see at left the usual Android, at right we see the Android whit the Samsung Security System Knox in white and the usual until now in blue. Whit this System people can have like two phones on one. A personal whit his own appl and a second secured to work on Enterprises and Governments and others.
The Knox Bootloader protect the secured part and not permit the flashing by Odin some files that it consider not secured like the oldest bootloaders. Then the Knox Warranty Void: 0x0 is first of all the Security System Knox secured. 0x1 is not secured.
For example I quote this from that doc/link:
Samsung KNOX offers a multi-faceted security solution rooted in the tamper-resistant device hardware, through the Linux kernel and Android operating system. The first line of defense against malicious attacks, Samsung KNOX is currently approved to run on US Department of Defense networks. (If flag 0x0, my opinion).
fterh said:
Android is supposed to be open, customizable and free, vs iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And there's your problem.
Android is open, customizable, and free - at source code level. However, individual implementations (such as Samsung's Touchwiz) have so such requirement to be so.
People like us, who like to hack around with our phones, are not the market that Samsung is aiming for. The vast, vast majority of Samsung Android users are never going to root their phone, manually upgrade/downgrade their firmware via Odin, or install custom ROMs. These users are *never* going to even thing about tripping Knox, let alone do anything that might trip it.
To be fair, Samsung are not alone in this - pretty much all major phone vendors are doing similar. Someone works out how to get S-OFF on the HTC One, and HTC release a patch to prevent it.
Going forward, I see a time coming where if you want to have complete control over your device, you will have to buy a developer edition.
Regards,
Dave
Really? Another thread to whine about Knox?
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ultramag69 said:
These companies get too big and start to dictate what the user wants instead of listening... And when they are sitting pretty on top they tend to stop developing new innovations because "They are the best" and then the item tends to stagnate with VERY little actual developement thrown in. Anything new is a kneejerk reaction to the next up and comer for king of the heap....
They will still say it is for the best of the user but in reality its because they're too damn lazy to work. Then comes the copyright everything attitudeand the litigation and more effort is spent suing others for copyright einfingement than making the latest and greatest, what was Apple"s big thing a while back, oh yeah, lets make it white....
Works well for them and most users who have a hard time working out which end to speak in but not for those who actually want to own, use and control what their device actually does....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This post basically nails all the reasons in one fell swoop..
And then they are forcing to use original accessories which is really really stupid of Samsung.
Question: Why is Samsung acting like Apple?
Answer: Because Apple is the most successful company in the world.
Do you really need another reason?
aydc said:
Question: Why is Samsung acting like Apple?
Answer: Because Apple is the most successful company in the world.
Do you really need another reason?
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Click to collapse
C'mon!!
OK. I've had rooted and hacked everyphohe I've had.. Since Nokia monocromatic days, Sony Ericsson devices and now android... I've used almost every custom ROM.. Applied hundreds of modifications, etc, etc... Trust me. Its funny how ppl complain about software and this Knox thing... Android continues to be on top of iOS for many many reasons... Many many reasons!!
I personally like to root .. Of course but with power comes disorder.. Yes maybe cosmetic custom is one of the reasons for rooting..and its fun. But as it comes with plenty of features so it comes with problems never experienced on stock.. Like freezes, restarts,etc, etc.. U know what am talking about.. Most of us have chosen the Gnote 3 for its innumerable capacities over almost every device on the market. It is a beast. No doubt. For me I haven't seen yet any modification or feature that make me wanna root my note.. It is a beast as it is now. Am not running KK.. Uh uh.. I'll wait for a more completed version... I have more than 15 years using cellphones and customizing them.. And now it seems that companies are getting to know what customers need in their devices .. That's why rooting will no longer be necessary.. Why don't you sit and think about this? I've root my Sgs2 and could have the multi window feature when it came out.. And the list goes and goes.. Arent you able to see we are going to another place now with stock phones?? Actually CM will have its on device sponsored by Google itself !!! See for example the multiple features of the moto x ... It is like R2D2 haha.. Personally I'm happy with the nowadays devices..let s see what's next...
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At least Samsung will not shut down your phone and force update, like Crapple does, on Samsung at least you can disable updates. And blame other users as well for this lockdowns: how many people brick their phones when modding and then at least try to claim warranty repairs or exchange? I don't have to look far, my good friend rooted his Note3 and this made his Gear stop working. Couldn't fix it, so he took it to service center and strangely enough they did fix it for free (he may have unrooted first, I don't know), by bringing all to stock and he is a hacker, perfectly capable of figuring it out, just didn't want to bother I guess. And yes, because Crapple is so successful, many companies will follow suit, so blame all Crapple users as well. If Crapple was a total failure, no one would imitate them.
pete4k said:
At least Samsung will not shut down your phone and force update, like Crapple does, on Samsung at least you can disable updates. And blame other users as well for this lockdowns: how many people brick their phones when modding and then at least try to claim warranty repairs or exchange? I don't have to look far, my good friend rooted his Note3 and this made his Gear stop working. Couldn't fix it, so he took it to service center and strangely enough they did fix it for free (he may have unrooted first, I don't know), by bringing all to stock and he is a hacker, perfectly capable of figuring it out, just didn't want to bother I guess. And yes, because Crapple is so successful, many companies will follow suit, so blame all Crapple users as well. If Crapple was a total failure, no one would imitate them.
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Soon change in a few years. You'll see Samsung become more and more like Apple in time.
Samsung used to be just another Korean electronics company, like what LG is today. Then they started copying Apple. The more they copied Apple, the more successful they became. It's this simple. Believe it. If you do what successful people do, you become successful. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't work.
aydc said:
Samsung used to be just another Korean electronics company, like what LG is today. Then they started copying Apple. The more they copied Apple, the more successful they became. It's this simple. Believe it. If you do what successful people do, you become successful. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't work.
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Just like the sales of apple is now falling I believe it will also happen to samsung.
Another thing not related to your comment since they've stopped allot people from rooting and developing due to the warranty issues. Development is Damn slow now. Like they did with gokhanmoral (think thats how you spell it all credits to him) with the s2 they had cherry picked from his kernel tree to implement into the stock to make stock run even smoother. Now there's only really one kernel in development for the international model compared to what previous phones had where there were quite a range.
What's the point of having really high end specs if you can't really exploit them? and sticking to something which much lower and play 'safe'.
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