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I think most of us with Nexus One's have discovered or read about the display's PenTile pixel setup. I am frustrated, because I look at a Droid, and the resolution seems so much better. But maybe, hopefully something can be done about this.
My main question is: How would one go about tweaking/changing the Pentile display driver hardware?
Supposedly, you can eliminate color fringing by tweaking certain register values in the display drivers and reducing the amplitude of modulation. It sounds like you basically need to stop the locally adaptive filter detector.
This article describes the whole issue:
ww.metalev.org/2010/03/more-on-resolution-of-nexus-one-display.html
Have any of the developers out there discovered tweaks and/or fixes for this dilemma? Is anyone like cyanogen working on improving the nexus' resolution?
there's nothing wrong with PenTile or it's register settings
Visit the Nouvoyance website and look for technology white papers on the PenTile OLED displays
The above link will explain that the resolution is fully supported. Hutinson simply found a "hack" to make the SPR engine give slight colors when excersized in a very unusual pattern.
hmmmm
Despite the claimed resolution, the screen does not look a good as the 3 subpixel screens. Nouvoyance claims it should look the same, but I just don't see it and I want a solution. I will start reading those white papers at nouvoyance. Thanks man
So a friend of mine was telling me that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 has a nicer and brighter screen because Samsung boosted the color saturation. At first I didn't believe him, and said it was because it had an Amoled or Super Amoled screen. He then told me that you cannot make amoled screens that size.
So I was wondering if it's possible to increase the saturation on our beloved transformer. The screen is great and all, but hey anything that can make the tablet better sounds good to me.
EDIT: Just googled "galaxy tab 10.1 screen type" and got a Slashgear article that says the GT uses a GFI display. (?) Is that better than IPS? I have no idea about displays, hell, I just learned whats the difference between LCD and Plasma...now to learn about LED
Both tablets have an IPS display. The color temperature is much higher on the 10.1 tab.
The iPad has 6500k, TF has 7800 and the 10.1 has over 9000(literally). The 10.1 color is far from what you are supposed to see. It isn't better, just more inaccurate.
Should still be adjustable, right? All my graphics cards have the option.
Love the over 9000 reference here and it actually works in reality.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
I am not aware of any change, but the TF is closer to the nominal setting. The Samsung is way over saturated. It makes people look sunburned. Samsung really needs to fix this.
Yea like someone mention, the 10.1 may seem more vibrant/saturated .. It doesn't mean that its more accurate.
I see nothing wrong with TF display. its a beautiful display with more natural look. As a photographer, I rather have more accurate screen than a more saturated one
I am not disagreeing but I think agree that having options isn't a bad thing...
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App
transceiver said:
Should still be adjustable, right? All my graphics cards have the option.
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Go right ahead. Find the driver source code and just start hacking. It may be inherent to the display and not user adjustable, or maybe they're leaving the calibration to the kernel in which case you could probably change it if you wanted.
sassafras
there is probably some xml file you can edit... ask clemsyn or someone that messes with code.
chatch15117 said:
Both tablets have an IPS display. /QUOTE]
The GT has a PLS display.
Regards,
Dave
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galaxy tab uses pls(plane line switching) transformer is ips(in plane switching) both are similar the ips on the transformer produces more accurate natural colors, while as the gtab shows more saturation but less real to life color accuracy
Wasn't saying the GT was more accurate, I just thought it'd be nice to be able to change the saturation of the screen. I like the vibrant-ness of the GT and the color pop. It just looks nice to me. Plus, wouldn't lowering the saturation mean more battery power? Some people may not care about the display since they use the device more for business or what not.
EDIT: After some googling, I found this. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=745248 It's an app that allows you to calibrate the screen's color. it's for CM7 I think, and I found it in a HD2 thread. Maybe a port? I would try, but I can't even wrap my head around Java and coding..
SwiftLegend said:
Wasn't saying the GT was more accurate, I just thought it'd be nice to be able to change the saturation of the screen. I like the vibrant-ness of the GT and the color pop. It just looks nice to me. Plus, wouldn't lowering the saturation mean more battery power? Some people may not care about the display since they use the device more for business or what not.
EDIT: After some googling, I found this. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=745248 It's an app that allows you to calibrate the screen's color. it's for CM7 I think, and I found it in a HD2 thread. Maybe a port? I would try, but I can't even wrap my head around Java and coding..
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I believe you would need to increase saturation to get closer to the Tab 10.1, thus, if saturation has anything to do with battery life (????) you would reduce your life.
Saturation has nothing to do with battery life. Backlight (brightness) is the only thing that will vary the battery life on the screen.
That app, which works on the Nexus One, just hooks into the surfaceflinger library which is the software that Android uses to render all of it's 2D elements on screen. It may work on Honeycomb, but I highly doubt it. Besides, it allows you to change color temperature, not saturation.
sassafras
Interesting topic.
I'm a hobby photographer seeking most natural colors and I think, though the TF's display is suboptimal for this purpose, it's acceptable.
Why it is suboptimal? Because it's an 18 bit color gamut display, which dithers colors to 24 bit.
And this fact might be a limitation regarding raising color saturation and especially calibration.
Right?
Firstly i really love Atrix2. and i love the TFT display. i always hate the AMOLED ro Super AMOLED or SAP , because the AMOLEDs are colors distortion too much.
But now, the Atrix2 display color is too dark ,even i adjusted the brightness to 100%. there still something like the <dark grey> became to <black>, also the <dark blue> became to <black>, all the colors are too dark!
i took some photos and videos by Atrix2, and they are looks so bad on the phone, when i copied them to the PC then they are looks very beautiful and the colors are very true.
I particularly like this phone excepted the display. i'm so disappointed, yes the RGB pixel lets the texts looks much better, actually the brightness is enough too, but just all the colors are too dark.
i don't want to change another phone, i don't like Samsung or HTC.
So can someone fix this display problem? i'll appreciate that.
gigii said:
Firstly i really love Atrix2. and i love the TFT display. i always hate the AMOLED ro Super AMOLED or SAP , because the AMOLEDs are colors distortion too much.
But now, the Atrix2 display color is too dark ,even i adjusted the brightness to 100%. there still something like the <dark grey> became to <black>, also the <dark blue> became to <black>, all the colors are too dark!
i took some photos and videos by Atrix2, and they are looks so bad on the phone, when i copied them to the PC then they are looks very beautiful and the colors are very true.
I particularly like this phone excepted the display. i'm so disappointed, yes the RGB pixel lets the texts looks much better, actually the brightness is enough too, but just all the colors are too dark.
i don't want to change another phone, i don't like Samsung or HTC.
So can someone fix this display problem? i'll appreciate that.
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Wow, first report I've heard of this - I would take it back and exchange it - compare it to ones in store at least. For me, it looks brilliant and bright - outdoors even better than iPhone 4.
Yeah mines been great in that department. "almost" bright as Samsungs SMOLED.
I pitted my up against a SGS II in the store and I believe the blues are brighter on the SGS II. However the A2 is just slightly less brighter than the SGS II. The blacks are super black and the other colors pop nicely. I think my display is on the warmer side compared the cooler side of the SGS II. However I have zero complaints with my display. I keep my display on 0% brightness at the work place and it looks just fine.
cheetablaze said:
I pitted my up against a SGS II in the store and I believe the blues are brighter on the SGS II. However the A2 is just slightly less brighter than the SGS II. The blacks are super black and the other colors pop nicely. I think my display is on the warmer side compared the cooler side of the SGS II. However I have zero complaints with my display. I keep my display on 0% brightness at the work place and it looks just fine.
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Actually mine is doing the same. Take for example I was watching Iron Man 2 and the race track scenes were perfect, FANTASTIC. But the scenes where it was dark were HORRIBLE. The night scenes from any video are really bad.
Clovett said:
Actually mine is doing the same. Take for example I was watching Iron Man 2 and the race track scenes were perfect, FANTASTIC. But the scenes where it was dark were HORRIBLE. The night scenes from any video are really bad.
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Yes i think we got same point. the dark scenes and night scenes are very bad. it could be the display contrast is too high.
Its really annoying if its like gigii says so. But still some people think that as bright as samsung amoled.
Confused.....
b520iverson said:
Its really annoying if its like gigii says so. But still some people think that as bright as samsung amoled.
Confused.....
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It is super bright. I just watched the International. All the scenes popped and were perfect. I could see every detail. Even the night scenes were great because there were lots of night lights. Then there was a night scene inside the back of a car with a black interior. That same video on my old Ipod 3rd gen touch you could see all the details of the seat etc... inside the car. On the Atrix 2 it was so bad it was like they floated in black.
Now the deal is I would rather have the Atrix for sure. I love the super high rez and accept the trade off for super dark scenes. Nothing is perfect and I love this phone. grrrrrr
Don't worry. The Atrix 1 screen is just as bad, if not worse. It's black crush is *horrid*.
I think the screen is great looking if not doing anything dependent on perfect color. Text is extremely crisp and most stuff looks nice if it isnt dark.
cushcalc said:
Wow, first report I've heard of this - I would take it back and exchange it - compare it to ones in store at least. For me, it looks brilliant and bright - outdoors even better than iPhone 4.
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please tell me more about atrix 2 display
at compare with iphone 4 or other smartphone ?
i a, atrix 4g user and dont love it so much . however its good too . but not great !?
how about atrix 2 !??
thx
Don't complain too much, the sgs 2 screen maybe bright but its blurry when compared to qhd of atrix 2. I still kinda miss the screen
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
As far as I know,this Atrix2 has some problem abt display in dark scenes.
sigh.
koriflame said:
I think the screen is great looking if not doing anything dependent on perfect color. Text is extremely crisp and most stuff looks nice if it isnt dark.
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1+
I love the screen
The Atrix 2 does not have a pentile display like the Atrix 4G did. Therefore, it is far improved for certain colors such as green, yellow and black.
However, a true black is difficult for LCDs of any variety. The color on the Atrix 2 is not as vivid when compared to other phones, especially the SGS series, however it should be noted that when you get down to it, the colors on the SGS line are actually overly vibrant, and as such are indeed further from the *true* color of whatever it is you are looking at VS the Atrix 2.
This is determined by doing color tests, however tests are really BS, because its more about taste than anything else.
As to the Atrix 2 having a hard time with dark scenes, I have not experienced this to the degree described in the thread. I find the screen to be quite vivid, blacks / dark screens included. Even at low brightness it seems far improved over the OG Atrix.
The iPhone 4 series has a better color definition in MY opinion, however when I tested it against a color test, it was not as true as the Atrix 2, being slightly over vivid.
I'd recommend exchanging your A2 for a different one given the description of the problem, as I have issued 70 of these things out to company employees and never seen one be as bad as what is described.
I got the point of gigii.
You see, it's NOT about the backlight being too dark, it's the color contrast itself. Try getting another android phone, let's say, a Motorola Defy. Do NOT compare with any AMOLED/SUPER AMOLED.
Try installing yahoo messenger app. I chose to compare this coz you'll see the obvious difference with the color.
You will notice that the color purple is DARKER in Atrix 2 compared to any other phones.
I think this is intentional as the display would look more vivid given that you have proper backlighting. All colors have darker shades. This would actually "fool" us on having better color contrast. Some may not notice it but if you have another phone to compare to (a TFT LCD unit perhaps) then you would know.
been meaning to try this ought to do the trick.rooted phones only!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1366280
try this app to view your picture :
"Perfect Viewer" , it can immediately apply gamma correction when browseing picture.
set gamma 1.1~1.3 is helpful.
I still can not find a video player app which can provide gamma correction function.
Any one suggest ?
Besides, I also use "Screen Adjuster" to increase color temperature because I feel the white color is too yellow. (set Blue value15~20)
I keep my brightness at the lowest for battery life, looks good to me.
mtnlion said:
been meaning to try this ought to do the trick.rooted phones only!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1366280
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This doesn't work for our phones.
The OP said it only works for samsung phones, but I tried it any ways =P. No luck.
It's kind of a head scratcher. I compared it with my 3T and is pretty noticeable as on the 3t the colors are better. Was it to keep cost down?
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
Possible issues securing sufficient quantities if amoled panels.
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
My last three daily drivers were the Note 7, Oneplus 3 and s7. There's definite advantages to amoled but there's advantages to lcd as well. Personally I have no complaints, Huawei have used a very high quality ips panel, so I'd be surprised if cost was the main motivator.
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Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
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I forgot to mention screen burn in - a problem that lcd panels don't face and which they still can't solve for amoled.
The screen on the Mate 9 is gorgeous, I've caught myself just staring at it a few times. Not once have I felt like it is a downgrade from the s7, and the s7 is a better panel than what the Oneplus has.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
hackdrag0n said:
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
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Tell that to LG. Their phones are LCD yet have terrible battery life. Yet my Pixel XL and Samsung phones have had much better battery life despite using AMOLED... so this is not necessarily true.
hackdrag0n said:
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
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Again, color calibration/saturation has NOTHING to do with screen tech. The manufacturer sets the color calibration/target. The Mate 9 IS OVER SATURATED. Not as much as most AMOLED phones, but it is not calibrated to sRGB by ANY means. AMOLED phones have typically over saturated because AMOLED has had much higher color coverage capability, and it was a strong selling point. I dislike over saturated colors, but love AMOLED when it is set to a reasonable target (sRGB or Adobe RGB). Contrast is extremely important for image quality, ESPECIALLY in dark viewing conditions. Fast pixel response time is hugely important for a smartphone to maintain a "clean" looking display when scrolling. The Mate 9 LCD is one of the worst I've seen. It has bad ghosting and/or overshoot artifacting which makes the problem even worse.
hackdrag0n said:
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
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This is true. Maybe Samsung will bring back RGB for the S8. They used to have RGB AMOLED in older phones at one point, you know?
hackdrag0n said:
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
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Not true. Samsung panels have high brightness modes under sunlight and other bright light sources. I can trigger this mode whenever I want using root and a kernel. My Pixel XL is brighter than my Mate 9.
Governa said:
Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using XDA Labs
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It is clear cut. AMOLED is superior. It's why I spent nearly $6,000 for TWO TV's in my house that are AMOLED. The quality is mind blowing on a large screen, and once you realize its benefits there, you will never want an LCD again... even on your smartphone. At least that's the case with me. It's also why Apple is going for AMOLED with the iPhone 8... because they know it's better.
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
There are a lot of misconceptions about display technology.
As mentioned they each have advantages and disadvantages.
LCD has a very flat power consumption due to the fact that it's essentially white LEDs shining through color filters whereas AMOLED consist of individual pixels that combine to create color meaning that each LED will vary in consumption according to what is displayed meaning white requires all of them to shine at maximum to create white which is why AMOLED uses more power in that situation and no power when displaying pure black. LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
AMOLED is only oversaturated because it is naturally a wide gamut display. When uncalibrated it will look oversaturated because all content is pretty much sRGB which is a limited color space. Many manufacturers including Huawei don't bother calibrating their displays for accuracy.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
LCD has poor latencies which is also why the regular 9 doesn't support Daydream. OLED displays naturally has low latencies which is why all Daydream compatible phones are AMOLED.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
LCD displays have higher peak brightness and is therefore more easy to see in sunlight. On the other hand, AMOLED have individually controlled brightness meaning pure blacks can be attained (turning off pixels completely) whereas LCD have edge lit displays with poor control resulting in light bleeding and above-zero blacks resulting in grey-ish blacks because there will always be some light shining through. So the contrast is much greater and only limited by peak brightness on the AMOLED display.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
PS. Typed this on my phone... Should have switched to laptop. What a pain to do this write-up.
↑ now THAT is a great post. Kudos.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using XDA Labs
hackdrag0n said:
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
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Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Trixanity said:
LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
Nitemare3219 said:
Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
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This is the first time I've been called a unicorn. I like it.
Thanks for the correction on the LG OLED TVs. I was under the impression they used the W-pixel to both produce higher brightness and reduce the added power consumption from going full tilt on each of the other pixels. I did not know they used filters like that actually. I thought they used similar tech to Samsung but apparently not But that also explains why their yields are so different.
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both Pentile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different. I wish LG would get back in the OLED display game for smaller screens including phones, tablets, laptops and monitors. It would be so awesome with some competition.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
If only they could invent a display that could switch between being emissive and reflective with few drawbacks - that would solve a lot of problems.
Edit: forgot to address the Huawei panel. Whether Huawei could get a 6" panel for the phone or not is uncertain. I'm just guessing; I have no sources to back that up but it seems to be the case that they couldn't find a panel that suited their needs. They probably also had a good deal with JDI since they've used their panels for some years and AMOLED was only just about to become the expected standard. We've long seen LCD being used by most manufacturers - it's only in the recent year or two that it has spread to other brands than Samsung. I mean Apple, LG, HTC, Sony and Huawei have all been using LCD either exclusively or primarily. That's about to change in the coming years.
I'm thinking the AMOLED panels they could get weren't up to the standard they were looking for. The LCD panel they used was pretty damn good although poorly calibrated. Although now that I think of it the reason the Pro is is 5.5" might be more to do with the requirement for a curved display which limits their options quite a bit. Also, keep in mind a custom display is expensive so producing a phone on the scale of a Mate 9 would probably limit them to off-the-shelf components to avoid gutting their profit margins. I'm sure they could have gotten any display they wanted if they were willing to pay the price.
With that being said: there are probably many reasons not to go AMOLED for the regular Mate 9 and all we can do is guess what their reasons are.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both PenTile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Nitemare3219 said:
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a heads up, I've added an edit to my previous post.
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
I don't think maintaining peak brightness is an issue unless you're standing out in direct sunlight all day with your phone. I mean you wouldn't switch to manual brightness and crank it up when you're inside. Most probably use auto brightness anyway and that means it won't be anywhere near the maximum unless you're outside. I'm sure it might reduce the lifespan of the LEDs or maybe increase the likelihood of a defect.
I was actually quite intrigued by LG's G Flex series (aka banana phone) which had a P-OLED display. It might be a bit gimmicky especially the 'self-healing' back cover but it looked different but it was plagued by poor sales and the second iteration was let down by the Snapdragon 810.
The G6 will have their new 18:9 (2:1 really) 5.7" LCD display. It will have 2880 x 1440 resolution. So not this time.
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Trixanity said:
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Lodix said:
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Trixanity said:
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
I don't mind a quality 1080 panel. Huawei makes me rethink my love of AMOLED displays.
I personally don't see a major difference unless it's the newest Samsung flagship. Not a major change from my 6p or Nexus 6 but these weren't cream of the crop AMOLED displays.
I truly thought this would be the mate that got the qhd AMOLED especially after the honor note 8 that released not long before this one. Extremely happy with the LCD panel.
Last 2 LCD phones I used was LeEco s1 and lg v10. The s1 had a great LCD panel that look AMOLED. Lg v10 just looked washed out most of the time.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're wrong. In 2015, yes they were ****. I had an EG9600 and it had about 50ms of input lag. I have 2 2016 TV's now, a C6 and a B6. The B6 just got an update and it does 28ms of input lag at 4:2:2, but close to 70ms at 4:4:4. The C6 does 34ms of input lag at either setting (4:2:2, or 4:4:4). The lag is NOT noticeable at all, and part of this is because the pixels respond instantly to new frames (<.1ms) whereas IPS and VA can take MANY milliseconds to update the pixels - some panels take dozens of milliseconds for a full transition for some colors. OLED is the fastest refresh for a panel today. My C6 has hundreds of hours of PC use ONLY, and has ZERO burn in... NONE.
Lodix said:
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is a lot of people mistake burn-in for image retention because they don't come back and check again later after viewing different content on the display for awhile. I will say that burn-in can be an issue for phones though, depending on how you use them/set them up. My friend's S5 has the keyboard ghosted/burned into the display. He must text a LOT or something. Blew my mind when I saw that.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not in Gaming/PC Mode on the most recent models. On the 2017 OLED the input lag is 21ms in virtually all situations.
Trixanity said:
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For pricing, you just have to wait until Black Friday for deals on the current year's models. That's the best time to buy a TV that will last you many years. Picked up the LG 65" C7P for $1900 last Fall. I wouldn't consider Samsung's QLED TV's over LG's RGBW OLED. However, there is the advantage of luminance. QLED have a higher luminance. Also keep in mind that although RGBW is not Pentile and doesn't suffer from inferior sub-resolution, you do lose color volume to an extent when using the higher levels of luminance (You'll be depending on the additional white sub-pixel). I'd say this is a fairly tertiary concern but could be important if you use the OLED in a bright living room. If using a dark room, there's absolutely no contest. Personally, I have the C7P in a living room and still completely satisfied. There's a reason why it's a champ on every review site. Oh and for reference, all the LG 2017 OLED have essentially the same panel irregardless of price.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Samsung Galaxy Note II (2012) also had a Full RGB AMOLED Display (720P HD). That was the last time for phones. However, Samsung also still does Full RGB AMOLED for the larger 9.7" models in their premium lines of tablets (Galaxy Tab S2, Tab S3). Those have the same 4:3 resolution as the iPad (2048x1536). The 10.5" Galaxy Tab S has a 2560x1600 Full RGB AMOLED Display as well. I certainly hope Samsung turns away from Pentile sometime in the future, but I don't think they'll do so anytime soon for smartphones. However, there is some hope.
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
60
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
normal for amoled screen
saidgta said:
Is this something wrong with the phone? Or is that normal?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have a defective display get it replaced ,& no this isn't normal with oled screens
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
blackhawk said:
You can see the lines with your eyes or just with the cam?
Normal for a cam image... try decreasing shutter speed, a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
saidgta said:
I can see with eyes but very rare, just when the screen is on 120 Hz and lowest brightness. On 60Hz everything's ok!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is that in a completely dark room?
If you're not using a incandescent light source for room lighting that may cause it.
Otherwise regardless of screen brightness or display frequency it should be not be showing anything except what's being displayed.
At that price it better be spot on.
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
screen lines
Hi. I just got my Note 20 Ultra and I have the same problem. I see streaks in my photos. If I switch between 60 and 120Hz, sometimes the lines disappear, but not always.
saidgta said:
Yes, that's in a completely dark room.
The horizontal lines is static, not moving. And you can see just in Gray Backgrounds with lowest brightness and 120hz.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not good. Was thinking maybe background LED lighting might be "strobing" it.
Probably a firmware issue but could hardware is my guess.
Maybe software... try clearing the system cache on boot menu, a hard reboot and clearing graphic driver data even if it reads zero. If you have PD MDM use that to clear instead of in Settings.
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I know someone that replaced the phone, but new phone has the issue too.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
blackhawk said:
Do you normally use that low a level at night?
I have excellent center vision; my 10+ goes dimmer than I will ever use. No flicker or color anomalies though.
It may be the physical hardware limits of the device or they may eventually patch a firmware flaw.
They also may have inadvertently set the lower limit of the brightness too low...
If it doesn't effect night usage I might ignore it.
Samsung can be notoriously slow at fixing firmware/software glitches in their products.
Amazingly even after almost 2 years they are still patching both firmware and software on the original Buds. They now perform much better then a year ago. Crazy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
blackhawk said:
That's seems annoying. Guess using a lower frequency at night be the easiest solution. Sammy throws out a lot of betaware that needs more work...
On the 10+ Pie the display settings are goofy for screen mode. If you set it to "vivid" it's way oversaturated. Natural is the best setting but you have little ability to dail it in much more than that.
I'm curious about these controls on the 20U and Q.
Any improvement?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
coilbio said:
Mine does the same. I think they all do it some people just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Frankly it's always visible since I know what to look for. when I'm not looking for the it, it's when it's really annoying to see.
I have a note 9 and a 10+ which I still daily drive both on their own sims. The difference in screens is very noticeable. The 120 hz mode is the problem. Put the phone in full resolution and it's way better.
The screen on the n20u is less vibrant than my other notes, but it's more color accurate so I like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
coilbio said:
Honestly don't notice a difference switching between the two in n20u, on note 10+ yes big difference.
So I tried the green slider mod setting where you dial it all the way down under advanced display setting.
Its not much of a difference, it does reduce it a little. The screen becomes purple dominant obviously but the green fringes still show.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the 10+ the color sliders are weak too.
A 3rd party overlay app works but is a pain.
Overlay apps won't work with Q though I believe.
Rather sloppy of Goggle and Samsung... this is an ongoing issue with Androids; no color calibration
Fortunately the 10+'s aren't too bad but it the color blind coders need to get up to speed...
Androids need color calibration.
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
doggydog2 said:
OLEDS are horrible sceens, but similarly to screen-to-body ratio we have brightness race now, a useless but review-happy attribute which does help your eyes only in very rare situations. Otherwise it makes your eyes tired with pulsing. For use in dark these screens are bad. You will also got ugly backbleeding as a bonus. Horror movies are unwatchable.
I have this with each phone nowadays, and there's no escape from it. I can see the lines on Note20U too, of course. It even blinks when you're tired. The backbleeding is rather uniform tho and not so intensive.
Funny as I use mobile 90% in dark, i prefer dark mode, and i like dark movies Killer trio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not the OLEDs that are the issue as the display on my 10+ is the best display I ever used.
It's the firmware/drivers and perhaps the >60 hz hardware. It's very disconcerting that it's not sorted out yet.
Well that's Samsung. It may be fixed. Samsung just pushed out yet another Buds+ firmware update today. Wow. They keep trying, I'll give them that... the best the Buds+ ever sounded.
So there's hope. The bad news is it will most likely need to be a firmware update if it is fixable.
Flashing the Buds is a lot easier (and less risky) than patching the bloody phone firmware.
Based on issues like this and the abomination that Q and above are, I may simply buy another backup 10+ 512gb phone running on Pie and call it good for the next 3 years.
Both Samsung and Goggle/Android have been practicing drop the ball like drooling kindergarten ftards lately
saidgta said:
Hi,
My Note 20 ultra has some Display problems.
When my phone is on a lower brightness and Adaptive(120Hz) refresh rate setting on a grey background, I can see all sorts of funky horizontal lines across it.
(except gallery - i think the refresh rate reduce to 60hz in gallery automatically so in gallery you can't see the problem).
I see them big time on settings screens or Apps where there is a gradient of gray.
see the attached Picture. Two pics with 120Hz(Adaptive) Display Refresh Rate and others with 60hz!
Note: the problem seems to be more than real in these pictures because of camera, with eyes you can't see such this bad!
Any one here with this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have same issue..! Have you sorted out this issue!?