Related
I have two Nexus S at the moment and they both have significantly different screen rendering while running the same ROM with the same customizations and brightness. This shows up most clearly with the wpclock wallpaper. I took a screen shot of each to post in the wpclock thread to see which of the renderings was most similar to other people's screens. The screen shots for both phones looks the same on my monitor, which I guess makes sense because a screen shot is a representation of the data of the picture and not an actual picture of the rendering on the screen.
Is my most accurate NS as far as screen color goes the one that matches the screen shot on my monitor? This assumes my monitor is fairly decent. I need to return one of the NS and I really don't know which is the more accurate screen rendering, one looks saturated with red and the other looks saturated with blue.
I had only looked at the phones individually before and thought the screen looked great on both, so it's really not that big a deal. When I looked at them together I noticed that they rendered quite differently and the red saturated one is slightly brighter than the blue saturated one. The red one has only been used for a few hours and the blue one for almost 30 days.
replying directly to the topic tittle question
i'd say no
the screeshot is capture within the machine, it will always show the correct color even if the physical device (screen) is not displaying the correct color
there have been very few SAMOLED screen that came defective from factory (from SGS)
but so far we've not see that as of yet in the SNS
^^ Thanks for the reply.
I found some good information in this thread, in particular post #7: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=883109
We can probably close this thread.
I have 2 Dell 22 inch LCDs here bought them at the same time and the colors are slightly different between the two.
my point being is that monitors and such display colors differently,
So a friend of mine was telling me that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 has a nicer and brighter screen because Samsung boosted the color saturation. At first I didn't believe him, and said it was because it had an Amoled or Super Amoled screen. He then told me that you cannot make amoled screens that size.
So I was wondering if it's possible to increase the saturation on our beloved transformer. The screen is great and all, but hey anything that can make the tablet better sounds good to me.
EDIT: Just googled "galaxy tab 10.1 screen type" and got a Slashgear article that says the GT uses a GFI display. (?) Is that better than IPS? I have no idea about displays, hell, I just learned whats the difference between LCD and Plasma...now to learn about LED
Both tablets have an IPS display. The color temperature is much higher on the 10.1 tab.
The iPad has 6500k, TF has 7800 and the 10.1 has over 9000(literally). The 10.1 color is far from what you are supposed to see. It isn't better, just more inaccurate.
Should still be adjustable, right? All my graphics cards have the option.
Love the over 9000 reference here and it actually works in reality.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
I am not aware of any change, but the TF is closer to the nominal setting. The Samsung is way over saturated. It makes people look sunburned. Samsung really needs to fix this.
Yea like someone mention, the 10.1 may seem more vibrant/saturated .. It doesn't mean that its more accurate.
I see nothing wrong with TF display. its a beautiful display with more natural look. As a photographer, I rather have more accurate screen than a more saturated one
I am not disagreeing but I think agree that having options isn't a bad thing...
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App
transceiver said:
Should still be adjustable, right? All my graphics cards have the option.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go right ahead. Find the driver source code and just start hacking. It may be inherent to the display and not user adjustable, or maybe they're leaving the calibration to the kernel in which case you could probably change it if you wanted.
sassafras
there is probably some xml file you can edit... ask clemsyn or someone that messes with code.
chatch15117 said:
Both tablets have an IPS display. /QUOTE]
The GT has a PLS display.
Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
galaxy tab uses pls(plane line switching) transformer is ips(in plane switching) both are similar the ips on the transformer produces more accurate natural colors, while as the gtab shows more saturation but less real to life color accuracy
Wasn't saying the GT was more accurate, I just thought it'd be nice to be able to change the saturation of the screen. I like the vibrant-ness of the GT and the color pop. It just looks nice to me. Plus, wouldn't lowering the saturation mean more battery power? Some people may not care about the display since they use the device more for business or what not.
EDIT: After some googling, I found this. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=745248 It's an app that allows you to calibrate the screen's color. it's for CM7 I think, and I found it in a HD2 thread. Maybe a port? I would try, but I can't even wrap my head around Java and coding..
SwiftLegend said:
Wasn't saying the GT was more accurate, I just thought it'd be nice to be able to change the saturation of the screen. I like the vibrant-ness of the GT and the color pop. It just looks nice to me. Plus, wouldn't lowering the saturation mean more battery power? Some people may not care about the display since they use the device more for business or what not.
EDIT: After some googling, I found this. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=745248 It's an app that allows you to calibrate the screen's color. it's for CM7 I think, and I found it in a HD2 thread. Maybe a port? I would try, but I can't even wrap my head around Java and coding..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe you would need to increase saturation to get closer to the Tab 10.1, thus, if saturation has anything to do with battery life (????) you would reduce your life.
Saturation has nothing to do with battery life. Backlight (brightness) is the only thing that will vary the battery life on the screen.
That app, which works on the Nexus One, just hooks into the surfaceflinger library which is the software that Android uses to render all of it's 2D elements on screen. It may work on Honeycomb, but I highly doubt it. Besides, it allows you to change color temperature, not saturation.
sassafras
Interesting topic.
I'm a hobby photographer seeking most natural colors and I think, though the TF's display is suboptimal for this purpose, it's acceptable.
Why it is suboptimal? Because it's an 18 bit color gamut display, which dithers colors to 24 bit.
And this fact might be a limitation regarding raising color saturation and especially calibration.
Right?
I was looking at some photos and noticed something about the pictures, all shadow detail was gone! It shows as pure black. Now OLED screens are supposedly better at showing shadow detail as there is no backlight haze to cover it up. I saw the same photo on the Samsung Note and the shadow detail was there. It seems the Note has correct calibration.
It is like they take all shadow detail past a certain level and instead of displaying it, they pull it all to black. I know Samsung loves to do this in their LCD TVs as their DNIE or something like that to try to give LCDs more psuedo contrast. All it does though is ruin low light images. It seems they do this with this phone, I presume to give it more "pop". The thing is OLEDs don't need an artificially darkened grey level, OLEDs are good as is in that way.
I tried that voodoo app on "soft" but that doesn't work. It only seems to raise the gamma on the parts of the image that show anyway. It doesn't override the gamma past a certain low level. The shadow detail that was gone before, is still gone.
Is there any other way to tweak this?
I know exactly what you're talking about. There's a huge difference in shadow detail between my plasma and the SAMOLED+ display, and I don't think it's as easily corrected as achieving an accurate gamma curve.
I'm not sure the infuse runs true 32bit color. most LCD screens don't and have some algorithm to mix pixels to cover it up but on a cell phone i doubt they'd even do that. I don't think they really took the infuse screen to its potential. maybe they tried to free up resources in the gpu by running 16bit color, or just figured it looks great so why take it to the full potential.
Dani897 said:
I'm not sure the infuse runs true 32bit color. most LCD screens don't and have some algorithm to mix pixels to cover it up but on a cell phone i doubt they'd even do that. I don't think they really took the infuse screen to its potential. maybe they tried to free up resources in the gpu by running 16bit color, or just figured it looks great so why take it to the full potential.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it has nothing to do with color depth. If there were issues with that graphics would have banding due to lack of colors. No banding. Eliminating shadow detail isn't because of bitness of the display, it doesn't work that way, you would see that everywhere.
It is deliberate. I looked at the same photo on a Galaxy Note supposedly with an inferior screen (pentile) and all of the shadow detail was there. It is like Samsung decided to cut off all shades below a certain threshold, probably to "enhance" the contrast.
GGXtreme said:
I know exactly what you're talking about. There's a huge difference in shadow detail between my plasma and the SAMOLED+ display, and I don't think it's as easily corrected as achieving an accurate gamma curve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except that the Galaxy Note shows this detail, and with an inferior screen tech (pentile). It isn't an OLEd issue, it is something they did. I would guess it needs a firmware/screen driver hack to fix, too bad that isn't likely.
DaveC1964 said:
Except that the Galaxy Note shows this detail, and with an inferior screen tech (pentile). It isn't an OLEd issue, it is something they did. I would guess it needs a firmware/screen driver hack to fix, too bad that isn't likely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm. Maybe supercurio can look into it (although he seems busy enough as-is). I'd be truly impressed with this screen if the shadow detail was there, even with the white point well above 6500k. This is actually similar to running my TV with 0-255 output levels or RGB Full pixel format, but I doubt it's related.
Edit: The graphs supercurio posted show black clipping below 4% gray, but I'm not sure if this is the direct cause of this (or if it's even correctable).
GGXtreme said:
Edit: The graphs supercurio posted show black clipping below 4% gray, but I'm not sure if this is the direct cause of this (or if it's even correctable).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It probably is the problem. I don't know why they clip anything. If the detail is there it should display it, period.
This is probably just another case of some marketing type at Sammy saying that this should be done to give things more contrast and "pop". It is idiotic however as it ruins some pictures/video.
It could be probably be fixed but it would have to be done low level, in the firmware somewhere.
supercurio mentioned that it could be fixed with a driver. One can always hope...
Since lots of users like to compare phones that didn't even hit the shops yet, or are not even officially launched , why not compare other related stuff? :
I find this recent Erica Griffin's video which is called "the truth about Amoled vs LCD" quite interesting:
I stick with Amoled anytime, even with the possibility of that "blue pixel burn-in"
Edit:
And here some interesting related info provided (once again) by Barry:
BarryH_GEG said:
Good news for the reviewer! She can buy AMOLED again if she wants to. Starting with the SGS4 Samsung's moved to a new PenTile geometry called Diamond Pixels. In it, sub-pixels are sized differently based on their longevity. Blue is the least energy efficient (most likely to erode) and is now larger than red and green.
A high resolution screen shot of the Galaxy S4*(provided by Samsung) shows an interesting design and sub-pixel arrangement, which Samsung callsDiamond Pixels. First of all, the Red, Green, and Blue sub-pixels have very different sizes – Blue is by far the largest because it has the lowest efficiency, and Green is by far the smallest because it has the highest efficiency. The alternating Red and Blue sub-pixel PenTile arrangement discussed above leads to a 45 degree diagonal symmetry in the sub-pixel layout. Then, in order to maximize the sub-pixel packing and achieve the highest possible PPI, that leads to diamond rather than square or stripe shaped Red and Blue sub-pixels. But not for the Green sub-pixels, which are oval shaped because they are squeezed between two much larger and different sized Red and Blue sub-pixels. It’s display art…
As for what display is best, that's easy. The one you like the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
betoNL said:
Since lots of users like to compare phones that didn't even hit the shops yet, or are not even officially launched , why not compare other related stuff? :
I find this recent Erica Griffin's video which is called "the truth about Amoled vs LCD" quite interesting:
I stick with Amoled anytime, even with the possibility of that "blue pixel burn-in"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only buy Samsung because of the AMOLED screens.
it's true there will eventually be some bluish pixel burn-in after you have used the phone for a good 3 or more years
and it doesn't seem to affect all AMOLED screens, but specific to the 5 color ones, the S-AMOLED seems unaffected by it.
I'm basing that from my old AMOLED i9000 and Nexus S vs. the S-AMOLED on the S2
As for color accuracy, I like the more vivid color provided by the AMOLED than the LCD / S-LCD
Interesting stuff. My next phone gonna be LCD.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
magik300 said:
Interesting stuff. My next phone gonna be LCD.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
even after learning what they do to the LCD displays?
you will probably have to run your own tests to see which phone has a correct LCD display, or waiting until some one has done a Gamut color level review on it before getting one.
at least with AMOLED you know what to expect.
I will not go into fight any about this, but after using both AMOLED and LCD, I simply don't find LCD 'interesting'.
But if we really want to go deep into technical analysis, you will find that a AMOLED display is considered to be the best display commercially available now. Check Samsung's new OLED TV KN55S9C reviews. Every reviews (including consumer reports) have mentioned that this has the best picture quality available right now.
I am going to be honest here and put my hands up and say I was not aware OLED screens are still affected by burn-in - but it makes sense.
I think I am going to cancel my pre-order of the Note 3, things like this really put me off - I love my nexus 4 screen and I think I may now wait out the Nexus 5 which will in all likelihood have IPS.
My last 4 devices were all with Amoled S and N series and never had such issues.
You really have to stay a loooooong time on one screen position to then, only increase a chance of blueish burn-in......... I guess
.
betoNL said:
My last 4 devices were all with Amoled S and N series and never had such issues.
You really have to stay a loooooong time on one screen position to then, only increase a chance of blueish burn-in......... I guess
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, screens have come a long way since even my galaxy nexus, which I didn't like it always looked greenish to me. But I played with a note 2 and that screen is great, the gs4 is even better, screens are largely a personal preference but give me true black any day
Interesting find. Gonna have to look for something to replace all the JellyBean blues on the new phone to ensure longevity. Tbh I haven't noticed anything on my current 1.5 yr old amoled phone or the 3 yr old phone before that. But I have noticed how much I enjoy the color, over saturated or not. An Apple genius bar friend had severe screen envy when he saw the size and colors lol.
Only downside has been viewability in sunlight to where I have to drag brightness all the way up to get a decent picture.
Good news for the reviewer! She can buy AMOLED again if she wants to. Starting with the SGS4 Samsung's moved to a new PenTile geometry called Diamond Pixels. In it, sub-pixels are sized differently based on their longevity. Blue is the least energy efficient (most likely to erode) and is now larger than red and green.
A high resolution screen shot of the Galaxy S4*(provided by Samsung) shows an interesting design and sub-pixel arrangement, which Samsung callsDiamond Pixels. First of all, the Red, Green, and Blue sub-pixels have very different sizes – Blue is by far the largest because it has the lowest efficiency, and Green is by far the smallest because it has the highest efficiency. The alternating Red and Blue sub-pixel PenTile arrangement discussed above leads to a 45 degree diagonal symmetry in the sub-pixel layout. Then, in order to maximize the sub-pixel packing and achieve the highest possible PPI, that leads to diamond rather than square or stripe shaped Red and Blue sub-pixels. But not for the Green sub-pixels, which are oval shaped because they are squeezed between two much larger and different sized Red and Blue sub-pixels. It’s display art…
As for what display is best, that's easy. The one you like the best.
The chick in the video seems to like making videos about this very same topic every now and then, not sure why she's obsessing over this topic.
Erica move on, is this the only topic you could throw out there to actually sound like you're smart?
Who gives a hoot about the difference it's all a matter of preference and now let's move on to something else.
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app
Regardless of what the sales and marketing terms are, the simple fact is all current and future Samsung devices have made the switch to "Super AMOLED" based panels so do not concern yourself with any BLED burn-in. This so-called issue was addressed several generations ago when AMOLED was still under testing and Samsung is among the best when it comes to yield/performance.
With that said, both the Samsung and T-Mobile sites show the final NS3 specs, which includes the use of their "Super AMOLED Display".
All is good and here in San Diego, CA, both T-Mobile and Verizon retail stores are sticking with October 1st and 2nd (respectively) as the official release.
Scott
References:
http://www.samsung.com/us/register/samsung-mobile-unpacked-event-2013/
http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phones/samsung-galaxy-note-3.html
BarryH_GEG said:
Good news for the reviewer! She can buy AMOLED again if she wants to. Starting with the SGS4 Samsung's moved to a new PenTile geometry called Diamond Pixels. In it, sub-pixels are sized differently based on their longevity. Blue is the least energy efficient (most likely to erode) and is now larger than red and green.
A high resolution screen shot of the Galaxy S4*(provided by Samsung) shows an interesting design and sub-pixel arrangement, which Samsung callsDiamond Pixels. First of all, the Red, Green, and Blue sub-pixels have very different sizes – Blue is by far the largest because it has the lowest efficiency, and Green is by far the smallest because it has the highest efficiency. The alternating Red and Blue sub-pixel PenTile arrangement discussed above leads to a 45 degree diagonal symmetry in the sub-pixel layout. Then, in order to maximize the sub-pixel packing and achieve the highest possible PPI, that leads to diamond rather than square or stripe shaped Red and Blue sub-pixels. But not for the Green sub-pixels, which are oval shaped because they are squeezed between two much larger and different sized Red and Blue sub-pixels. It’s display art…
As for what display is best, that's easy. The one you like the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gonna add this info tomorrow to the first post....
Nighty night
Transparent notification bars ftw
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
I hope u guys really did understand her video.Even if LG over saturated in real life the s4's colors are still more saturated than the LG's even if the calibration on the s4 is about right.This is because of the wide gamut.She's pissed that LG over saturated so much not that the G2 is more saturated than the s4(the s4 is more and I compared them).AMOLED is new tech and even if it looks great with puchy colors maufacturers have way more work to do.They run hotter than LCD,they die earlier,blue pixel burn in,previously black clipping which is solved only on the s4 and note 3.Even power saving many talk of except your phone is completely black with black fonts, wallpaper,widget(lol u won't see anything) u can't save power on AMOLED.I just don't like it because of it's issues.Everyone has his opinion but don't say it's great or better than LCD just because your device has AMOLED.Tell the truth.AMOLED needs a breakthrough to really show it's power management and other qualities.The famous moto x doesn't blow the HTC one out of the water in terms of battery life even with all the power saving tech and AMOLED.(some LCDs OPPO find 5 and xperia z1+ z ultra have punchy blacks unless you turn off all the lights)
Well gn3 might be my first samoled device, but in all honesty I don't really give a damn since in about a year or max 2 I'll get a new device anyways. Disposable
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
hackarchive said:
I hope u guys really did understand her video.Even if LG over saturated in real life the s4's colors are still more saturated than the LG's even if the calibration on the s4 is about right.This is because of the wide gamut.She's pissed that LG over saturated so much not that the G2 is more saturated than the s4(the s4 is more and I compared them).AMOLED is new tech and even if it looks great with puchy colors maufacturers have way more work to do.They run hotter than LCD,they die earlier,blue pixel burn in,previously black clipping which is solved only on the s4 and note 3.Even power saving many talk of except your phone is completely black with black fonts, wallpaper,widget(lol u won't see anything) u can't save power on AMOLED.I just don't like it because of it's issues.Everyone has his opinion but don't say it's great or better than LCD just because your device has AMOLED.Tell the truth.AMOLED needs a breakthrough to really show it's power management and other qualities.The famous moto x doesn't blow the HTC one out of the water in terms of battery life even with all the power saving tech and AMOLED.(some LCDs OPPO find 5 and xperia z1+ z ultra have punchy blacks unless you turn off all the lights)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who said saturation is bad? And when did wide colour gamut become a bad thing? Even with a wider gamut, AMOLED still can't cover full range of visible colour space. Even if someone pushes to Adobe RGB or NTSC colour space, I think its good.
AMOLED covers more green-yellow-cyan range. Remember that the eye is more sensitive to yellowish-green light than other colors. G2 is over-saturating the colours, but it can't show additional colours like AMOLED as it's inherently restricted to show just near sRGB space. Why restrict ourself to sRGB when it was designed for CRT monitors?? But the fact remains that AMOLED can show more colours compared to LCD. And that's a good thing.
Reviews have proved that the best available display right now is OLED display. Samsung's OLED TV KN55S9C is considered to have the best picture quality. Saying AMOLED is bad is pure non-sense.
A very irritating woman - Take with a pinch of salt
hackarchive said:
.AMOLED needs a breakthrough to really show it's power management and other qualities.The famous moto x doesn't blow the HTC one out of the water in terms of battery life even with all the power saving tech and AMOLED.(some LCDs OPPO find 5 and xperia z1+ z ultra have punchy blacks unless you turn off all the lights)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL...There is no High-end device with better battery performance than the GNote2...Totally energy efficient and the screen is gorgeous....
Maybe the GNote3 will have better battery performance, but that remains to be seen ...
And I hope you really did understand the new PenTile geometry called Diamond Pixels thing, mentioned just a couple of posts before yours....
.
hackarchive said:
Everyone has his opinion but don't say it's great or better than LCD just because your device has AMOLED.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's my opinion. I could give a crap whether a device I want to purchase has AMOLED or LCD. All I want is a good high quality display. There are crappy LCD displays (there are tons of posts in the One and Z1 forums about display issues) and crappy AMOLED displays. Truthfully, on a 4.7-6" canvas the amount of energy devoted to examining nuances in displays is comical. AMOLED has far superior contrast, bolder colors, better reflectance, better viewing angles and uses less energy on dark colors. LCD produces truer colors (depending on OEM calibration choices), is brighter, and uses less energy on light colors. The hardest part of going from AMOLED to LCD for me is the drop in contrast and greyish blacks which are unavoidable. If the N3 had a high quality LCD display I'd be totally fine with it. More important than the display is what it's attached to and I happen to be happy with Samsung's products. I'm not buying a display; I'm buying the high-end mobile device it's a component of. And the displays in Sony and HTC's phones are all made by Sharp-Renasys or JDI anyway.
And as you ridicule AMOLED, ask yourself why Motorola (Google) used it in the Moto X which is the most important phone they've ever released.
Like LCD? Bully, buy a LCD-equipped phone. Like AMOLED, buy a phone that has it. If you're happy I'm happy for you.
It's kind of a head scratcher. I compared it with my 3T and is pretty noticeable as on the 3t the colors are better. Was it to keep cost down?
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
Possible issues securing sufficient quantities if amoled panels.
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
My last three daily drivers were the Note 7, Oneplus 3 and s7. There's definite advantages to amoled but there's advantages to lcd as well. Personally I have no complaints, Huawei have used a very high quality ips panel, so I'd be surprised if cost was the main motivator.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using XDA Labs
I forgot to mention screen burn in - a problem that lcd panels don't face and which they still can't solve for amoled.
The screen on the Mate 9 is gorgeous, I've caught myself just staring at it a few times. Not once have I felt like it is a downgrade from the s7, and the s7 is a better panel than what the Oneplus has.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
hackdrag0n said:
Screen on time is much better than amoled when viewing mostly white content such as web pages.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tell that to LG. Their phones are LCD yet have terrible battery life. Yet my Pixel XL and Samsung phones have had much better battery life despite using AMOLED... so this is not necessarily true.
hackdrag0n said:
Amoled tends to over saturate colours, lcd is more subdued but also more natural looking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, color calibration/saturation has NOTHING to do with screen tech. The manufacturer sets the color calibration/target. The Mate 9 IS OVER SATURATED. Not as much as most AMOLED phones, but it is not calibrated to sRGB by ANY means. AMOLED phones have typically over saturated because AMOLED has had much higher color coverage capability, and it was a strong selling point. I dislike over saturated colors, but love AMOLED when it is set to a reasonable target (sRGB or Adobe RGB). Contrast is extremely important for image quality, ESPECIALLY in dark viewing conditions. Fast pixel response time is hugely important for a smartphone to maintain a "clean" looking display when scrolling. The Mate 9 LCD is one of the worst I've seen. It has bad ghosting and/or overshoot artifacting which makes the problem even worse.
hackdrag0n said:
Rgb matrix gives better sharpness than the pentile matrix typically used in amoled screens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true. Maybe Samsung will bring back RGB for the S8. They used to have RGB AMOLED in older phones at one point, you know?
hackdrag0n said:
Mate 9 screen is also brighter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true. Samsung panels have high brightness modes under sunlight and other bright light sources. I can trigger this mode whenever I want using root and a kernel. My Pixel XL is brighter than my Mate 9.
Governa said:
Exactly. People tend to hear AMOLED and think it's clear cut. It's not. Each tech has its own pros and cons.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is clear cut. AMOLED is superior. It's why I spent nearly $6,000 for TWO TV's in my house that are AMOLED. The quality is mind blowing on a large screen, and once you realize its benefits there, you will never want an LCD again... even on your smartphone. At least that's the case with me. It's also why Apple is going for AMOLED with the iPhone 8... because they know it's better.
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
There are a lot of misconceptions about display technology.
As mentioned they each have advantages and disadvantages.
LCD has a very flat power consumption due to the fact that it's essentially white LEDs shining through color filters whereas AMOLED consist of individual pixels that combine to create color meaning that each LED will vary in consumption according to what is displayed meaning white requires all of them to shine at maximum to create white which is why AMOLED uses more power in that situation and no power when displaying pure black. LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
AMOLED is only oversaturated because it is naturally a wide gamut display. When uncalibrated it will look oversaturated because all content is pretty much sRGB which is a limited color space. Many manufacturers including Huawei don't bother calibrating their displays for accuracy.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
LCD has poor latencies which is also why the regular 9 doesn't support Daydream. OLED displays naturally has low latencies which is why all Daydream compatible phones are AMOLED.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
LCD displays have higher peak brightness and is therefore more easy to see in sunlight. On the other hand, AMOLED have individually controlled brightness meaning pure blacks can be attained (turning off pixels completely) whereas LCD have edge lit displays with poor control resulting in light bleeding and above-zero blacks resulting in grey-ish blacks because there will always be some light shining through. So the contrast is much greater and only limited by peak brightness on the AMOLED display.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
PS. Typed this on my phone... Should have switched to laptop. What a pain to do this write-up.
↑ now THAT is a great post. Kudos.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using XDA Labs
hackdrag0n said:
No, it's your opinion that amoled is superior. It's not a hard fact.
I'm also not sure how your pixel can be brighter when review sites have it listed at under 400 nits and the Mate 9 is listed at over 600.
Actually, I'll rephrase that: if contrast ratio is the most important factor to you then yes amoled is a must. Other than that I still maintain that there are still areas where lcd has advantages.
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Trixanity said:
LG has somewhat solved that on their TVs because they use 4 sub pixels: RGBW. They therefore create white separately and can save power that way.
Huawei most likely used LCD for the regular Mate 9 because no decent 6" AMOLED was available which explains why the Pro variant has a 5.5" display.
AMOLED is more prone to burn-in and is also prone to display degradation due to each sub pixel aging at varying rates.
AMOLED doesn't have RGB but RG-BG sub pixels resulting in some odd problems including potentially green tint and reduced display quality and sharpness. Pentile sucks but the yields are better I guess and it does have some advantages such as decreased power consumption.
Finally, an often overlooked issue: many modern LCD displays use voltage controlled display brightness regulation where all AMOLED displays use PWM. Why is this important? PWM can cause eye strain and headaches. Especially due to the low frequency of 240 Hz that many AMOLED displays use. Your eyes won't necessarily notice the flickering but they can be irritated by it anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
Nitemare3219 said:
Look at the world of TV's. As is sits, LG's OLED TV's are the pinnacle of displays. They are the absolute best. No question, no contest, every quality review site agrees, as do the owners (myself included). I said the Pixel is brighter because I have enabled the Samsung panel brightness boost mode via root and a custom kernel - it acts just like the sunlight brightness boost on the S7/S7E, except I can enable it whenever I want. It is just as bright, if not brighter, than the Mate 9. The only advantage LCD has today is higher peak brightness, and that is only true in TV's since they have much larger backlights. Cellphones, AMOLED is actually much better in terms of outdoor viewing as tested by GSM Arena, due to a combination of peak brightness and lower reflectivity. Other than the potential for burn-in/image retention, there is zero benefit to an LCD in a cell phone.
Someone who actually knows something about AMOLED too on XDA! It's like finding a unicorn... just a few things to add...
LG does add a 4th white subpixel in their TV's, but it's moreso to increase peak brightness and not really save power. When display white, there are actually 3 subpixels turned on (I believe it's red, blue, and white) so it's not making much difference there... but it is certainly brighter because ALL the subpixels are WHITE subpixels (red, blue, and green have color filters), so having a white subpixel without a color filter eliminates brightness loss on those subpixels.
It blows my mind that Huawei couldn't get a decent ~6" AMOLED panel. Motorola did it for the Nexus 6. And hell, Samsung made them a custom 6.6" AMOLED display for the Honor Note 8! Oh well... maybe Samsung wanted less competition against the S8.
I will say that AMOLED phone panels have had a nasty tendency to burn-in. I can't say how the 2016 panels perform in normal usage (store burn-in is not a fair baseline), but it seems to improve every year. Neither of my 2016 LG OLED TV's show any burn-in, and 1 of them has been used as a PC monitor its entire time. I have taken a few steps to mitigate it (I hide icons behind browser windows, have the task bar set to auto-hide, and turn the brightness down slightly), but nothing major and it is perfectly fine. Image retention and uneven wear on the display is often confused with burn-in. For instance, the nav bar on my Pixel XL is clearly visible if I go fullscreen on a gray background (the most obvious color for burn/IR tests), but that is mostly because the black pixels there just never get used... so they're actually brighter, ever so slightly, than the rest of the screen. By running a manual compensation cycle when I'm not using the phone (such as white noise, or inverted colors), it mostly fixes the issue. That is an acceptable trade-off to me, especially considering the fact that the nav bar is always there. My TV's run black-screen compensation cycles automatically every 8 hours or so (after shutdown), so this is the nature of the beast.
True about the RG-BG pentile garbage. But that's Samsung's doing since they have terrible yields with full RGB. They did make at least 1 phone years ago that had true RGB AMOLED, and they marketed that specific feature too, literally telling customers how much sharper RGB is compared to pentile! - funny how they went away from it. Probably why their OLED TV division failed as well, since RGB AMOLED is clearly impossible to produce good yields right now, especially at larger sizes. I am hoping that the S8 brings back RGB AMOLED in the mobile world... rumors say it will.
AMOLED phone panels certainly do use PWM, but LG OLED TV's do not use PWM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the first time I've been called a unicorn. I like it.
Thanks for the correction on the LG OLED TVs. I was under the impression they used the W-pixel to both produce higher brightness and reduce the added power consumption from going full tilt on each of the other pixels. I did not know they used filters like that actually. I thought they used similar tech to Samsung but apparently not But that also explains why their yields are so different.
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both Pentile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different. I wish LG would get back in the OLED display game for smaller screens including phones, tablets, laptops and monitors. It would be so awesome with some competition.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
If only they could invent a display that could switch between being emissive and reflective with few drawbacks - that would solve a lot of problems.
Edit: forgot to address the Huawei panel. Whether Huawei could get a 6" panel for the phone or not is uncertain. I'm just guessing; I have no sources to back that up but it seems to be the case that they couldn't find a panel that suited their needs. They probably also had a good deal with JDI since they've used their panels for some years and AMOLED was only just about to become the expected standard. We've long seen LCD being used by most manufacturers - it's only in the recent year or two that it has spread to other brands than Samsung. I mean Apple, LG, HTC, Sony and Huawei have all been using LCD either exclusively or primarily. That's about to change in the coming years.
I'm thinking the AMOLED panels they could get weren't up to the standard they were looking for. The LCD panel they used was pretty damn good although poorly calibrated. Although now that I think of it the reason the Pro is is 5.5" might be more to do with the requirement for a curved display which limits their options quite a bit. Also, keep in mind a custom display is expensive so producing a phone on the scale of a Mate 9 would probably limit them to off-the-shelf components to avoid gutting their profit margins. I'm sure they could have gotten any display they wanted if they were willing to pay the price.
With that being said: there are probably many reasons not to go AMOLED for the regular Mate 9 and all we can do is guess what their reasons are.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
I'm hoping the S8 can do away with both PenTile and PWM. Then I'd probably buy it instantly but that's wishful thinking.
PWM is apparently used to avoid hue shifts which I suspect might be because of the Pentile arrangement but I'm not sure. I've not seen measurements on the S2 but I've heard anecdotal evidence that it was actually not using PWM.
It might also explain why LG doesn't use it on their TVs; that they simply don't have that problem with hue shifts because their panels are so different.
By the way, interesting note on the peak brightness. Can the brightness boost be maintained indefinitely or does it dim after a while? I know LG had a booster on their recent LCDs (of all things) and it dimmed shortly after. One thing I should note that the Mate 9 reaches up to 700 nits and that's not limited to auto brightness like Samsung's is meaning that you can manually boost it to that at all times. The Pixel XL only manages 400 in the same scenario but if you can boost the peak brightness through a mod and keep it there (perhaps even without auto brightness?) then that's impressive especially if goes over 700. I do believe 700 nits is about as bright as you'll get on a smartphone LCD. The only reason we even need it is because of sunlight. 700 nits would be blinding to my eyes in any other scenario
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Nitemare3219 said:
The S2... man, long time ago. They probably only managed RGB because of the low resolution and/or realized then just how bad the yields were.
I've never noticed PWM, so it's no issue for me. I believe the color hue shifts when viewing at an angle is actually because the display is pentile. LG's OLED TV's have mind blowing viewing angles - it is essentially perfect no matter where you view from in terms of color, AND the brightness does not decrease either like on an LCD - forgot to mention that too! LCD panels get much dimmer if you view off-axis... OLED do not.
As far as I know, the Pixel can maintain the brightness boost indefinitely. I have used it for upwards of 20 minutes or so before. I can manually enable it via widget, or have it set to function automatically as well. I'm not sure I want to test long periods of time though... there could be a downside to it over time (perhaps why Samsung does not allow it to be user enabled). I know LG's phones in the past have quickly turned down their peak brightness due to heat issues. I wonder if the Mate 9 could suffer from the same problem eventually? Probably not seeing as how Apple manages to have displays that bright as well without issue. I think LG's mobile division is just really, really lacking right now. Hopefully they bring OLED to their phones again soon (they've used P-OLED a few times, and I experienced it in their Watch Urbane LTE 2nd edition smartwatch, and that was fantastic).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a heads up, I've added an edit to my previous post.
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
I don't think maintaining peak brightness is an issue unless you're standing out in direct sunlight all day with your phone. I mean you wouldn't switch to manual brightness and crank it up when you're inside. Most probably use auto brightness anyway and that means it won't be anywhere near the maximum unless you're outside. I'm sure it might reduce the lifespan of the LEDs or maybe increase the likelihood of a defect.
I was actually quite intrigued by LG's G Flex series (aka banana phone) which had a P-OLED display. It might be a bit gimmicky especially the 'self-healing' back cover but it looked different but it was plagued by poor sales and the second iteration was let down by the Snapdragon 810.
The G6 will have their new 18:9 (2:1 really) 5.7" LCD display. It will have 2880 x 1440 resolution. So not this time.
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Trixanity said:
I doubt the input lag stems from the panel technology. Input lag is usually related to processing lag in the display controller and other IC. However they can achieve 1 ms response time and theoretically 100000 Hz refresh rate, so it has the potential to be the best gaming display technology ever.
As previously mentioned: what many consider burn-in is merely image retention which is very much reversible and it does continue to get better in that regard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Lodix said:
Well "burn-in" is actually the leds "burning" so there is no way to recover them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Trixanity said:
That doesn't really refute what I said. That's merely an explanation for what burn-in is. What I said is that many think image retention is burn-in when they're two different things (or more accurately you could say that the symptoms are the same but the prognosis is different especially if given the right medication - so to speak). Image retention is reversible as I said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
I don't mind a quality 1080 panel. Huawei makes me rethink my love of AMOLED displays.
I personally don't see a major difference unless it's the newest Samsung flagship. Not a major change from my 6p or Nexus 6 but these weren't cream of the crop AMOLED displays.
I truly thought this would be the mate that got the qhd AMOLED especially after the honor note 8 that released not long before this one. Extremely happy with the LCD panel.
Last 2 LCD phones I used was LeEco s1 and lg v10. The s1 had a great LCD panel that look AMOLED. Lg v10 just looked washed out most of the time.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag. They can also suffer from burn in. Oled/amoled may be the technology of the future if they sort the niggling issues. Right now lcd still has merits. Quantum dot might bring lcd to the fore again though, time will tell
Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're wrong. In 2015, yes they were ****. I had an EG9600 and it had about 50ms of input lag. I have 2 2016 TV's now, a C6 and a B6. The B6 just got an update and it does 28ms of input lag at 4:2:2, but close to 70ms at 4:4:4. The C6 does 34ms of input lag at either setting (4:2:2, or 4:4:4). The lag is NOT noticeable at all, and part of this is because the pixels respond instantly to new frames (<.1ms) whereas IPS and VA can take MANY milliseconds to update the pixels - some panels take dozens of milliseconds for a full transition for some colors. OLED is the fastest refresh for a panel today. My C6 has hundreds of hours of PC use ONLY, and has ZERO burn in... NONE.
Lodix said:
But the problem with oled panels is the burn-in, not the retention. Maybe this year they have manged to solve it someway since Apple is implementing it in their iPhones and people are very nitpicking with their devices.
PD: I am all over AMOLED panels, it is one of the reason why I got the 9 Pro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is a lot of people mistake burn-in for image retention because they don't come back and check again later after viewing different content on the display for awhile. I will say that burn-in can be an issue for phones though, depending on how you use them/set them up. My friend's S5 has the keyboard ghosted/burned into the display. He must text a LOT or something. Blew my mind when I saw that.
hackdrag0n said:
While beautiful, oled tv's are **** for gaming due to the horrendous input lag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not in Gaming/PC Mode on the most recent models. On the 2017 OLED the input lag is 21ms in virtually all situations.
Trixanity said:
I wish I could afford an OLED TV One would be foolish not to pick up an LG OLED TV over any LCD display out there today (barring the price that is).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For pricing, you just have to wait until Black Friday for deals on the current year's models. That's the best time to buy a TV that will last you many years. Picked up the LG 65" C7P for $1900 last Fall. I wouldn't consider Samsung's QLED TV's over LG's RGBW OLED. However, there is the advantage of luminance. QLED have a higher luminance. Also keep in mind that although RGBW is not Pentile and doesn't suffer from inferior sub-resolution, you do lose color volume to an extent when using the higher levels of luminance (You'll be depending on the additional white sub-pixel). I'd say this is a fairly tertiary concern but could be important if you use the OLED in a bright living room. If using a dark room, there's absolutely no contest. Personally, I have the C7P in a living room and still completely satisfied. There's a reason why it's a champ on every review site. Oh and for reference, all the LG 2017 OLED have essentially the same panel irregardless of price.
Trixanity said:
About Pentile: that phone was the Samsung Galaxy S2 (coincidentally my first Android phone) - released in 2011. I guess the yields weren't good enough and at the same time they wanted to increase screen density. Maybe it made the yields plummet and then pushing towards HD and full HD made it unfeasible. The S2 had a 800x480 resolution by the way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Samsung Galaxy Note II (2012) also had a Full RGB AMOLED Display (720P HD). That was the last time for phones. However, Samsung also still does Full RGB AMOLED for the larger 9.7" models in their premium lines of tablets (Galaxy Tab S2, Tab S3). Those have the same 4:3 resolution as the iPad (2048x1536). The 10.5" Galaxy Tab S has a 2560x1600 Full RGB AMOLED Display as well. I certainly hope Samsung turns away from Pentile sometime in the future, but I don't think they'll do so anytime soon for smartphones. However, there is some hope.