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Discussion - Is WinMo being left behind?

With the advent of iPhone (love or hate), and Android devices the broadcast media seem to be touting this technology as new, ignoring that us faithful WinMo users have been creating, downloading and using 'apps' and generally customising our phones for years.
I never hear of new releases for WinMo, but plenty about iPhone and increasingly Android - I'm thinking Spotify client and the new actual reality stuff where data is superimposed on the camera view; but there are many others.
I know there's loads of us out there, and we tend to look after ourselves, but the mainstream appears to be shunning the WM operating system.
I'd pay for a Spotify client, a WM version of Dynolicious, and I'm quite excited about actual reality, but I'm fast thinking WM is a dead technology.

So if we refute that, and laud the benefits of winmo.. will that reaffirm your belief in this mobile o/s?
Always dangerous letting others dictate whats relevant to your world.

66mustang said:
With the advent of iPhone (love or hate), and Android devices the broadcast media seem to be touting this technology as new, ignoring that us faithful WinMo users have been creating, downloading and using 'apps' and generally customising our phones for years.
I never hear of new releases for WinMo, but plenty about iPhone and increasingly Android - I'm thinking Spotify client and the new actual reality stuff where data is superimposed on the camera view; but there are many others.
I know there's loads of us out there, and we tend to look after ourselves, but the mainstream appears to be shunning the WM operating system.
I'd pay for a Spotify client, a WM version of Dynolicious, and I'm quite excited about actual reality, but I'm fast thinking WM is a dead technology.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMHO, the reason that you hear more regarding the other o/s's is that they are newer and have much less testing and use than winmo does, not to mention less apps as well as more more problems and issues! Each time a new version of winmo comes out, we have to deal with the same types of problems, but as it is a more developed platform, it does not take as long to work out the bugs.
A good example here is when MS created that p.o.s system known as Vista! It was JUNK! Then over time, it got a bit better, but MS finally got smart and gave up on fixing it's many issues and has now developed Win 7.
Later............

Phen0m said:
So if we refute that, and laud the benefits of winmo.. will that reaffirm your belief in this mobile o/s?
Always dangerous letting others dictate whats relevant to your world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What a rediculous argument. I know WM is the best mobile OS, but then Betamax was the best video system.
I'm not talking about what's important for me, I'm talking about what people see as available - WM gets no mainstream media coverage, no-one goes into shops asking for it (just try going into an O2 shop or Carphone Warehouse and attempting to get an informed conversation from the sales staff about any WM device) and then we get a snowball effect where none of the 'killer' apps are being devloped for it - all efforts are being made towards the iPhone because it's sexy, WM is much better, more flexible, but ultimately nerdy (not that the general public even know it exists).
Maybe it'll remain as the business class mobile OS, which I'll be happy with as there's always the skilled people on here and similar sites to keep the software coming. Thanks guys.

I think one of the main reasons why WinMo is being left behind is because other people are intimidated by it. iPhone and Android are more user friendly with less things to worry about. Whenever I suggested a WinMo phone to my friends, they always say something along the lines of "I don't want to get stuck with a bunch of problems"
I will say, that it does take some kind of persistance and knowledge of how this OS works in order to be able to fiddle around with it. In the mean time, I guess android and iPhone are the "go-to" devices for people who want something easy to start with.
I honestly would never choose an iPhone, and I've never used an Android, so I wouldn't know how closely Android resembles WinMo.

theomni said:
I honestly would never choose an iPhone, and I've never used an Android, so I wouldn't know how closely Android resembles WinMo.
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Click to collapse
While the iPhone 3GS is becoming what the iPhone should have been in the first place - I would never get an iPhone either for all the familiar reasons. The iPhone's main UI is an icon fest. I'd like to seem more information on the home screen. Also, the control freakery of Apple when it comes to what apps are allowed to run is unacceptable to me.
Android on the other hand is leaving WM completely behind. The HTC Hero is just amazing. It makes WinMo look very clunky indeed. You have the power, flexibilty and openness of the WM platform, with almost the polish and usability of the iPhone platform - but with multi-tasking.
What's worse is that this does not have to be the case. PointUI shows what's possible with existing WM technology but for some reason M$ hasn't gone there up to now.
I have not seen WM6.5 or WM7 yet so I can't comment on how they are addressing the issue in these new versions.

Android need a while longer to mature. But at this moment it seems like Android is the new windows mobile. Customizable, opensource, HTC, app store, its like the bastard step child of what would happen if the IPHONE and WINMO had a one night stand. That said, I don't feel like Winmo is being left behind. You only need to look at the Samsung who makes phones for everyone but the Omnia was its "THE PHONE" and it ran on windows. HTC will not abandon windows, look at the anticipation for TD2 TP2. Toshiba is getting into the fray. Nvidia will soon be throwing some love into windows (based upon the look of the Zune HD, we could be in for some fun). Lets be honest, the phone market is Winmo'd out. Every brand except Nokia is cranking out phones and its an oversaturated market. Which is why its hard for any particular brand to make a big splash unless they innovate, innovation will push this market foward. This is an exciting time to have windows.
However, i do believe the problem is this, hardware. Clearly Winmo is a huge system to carry. Simple things need to disappear..huge load times, massive lag. These things make our devices, no matter how current the software is, seem ancient. This is up to M$ to fix, and for developer (HTC) to start addressing by using proper hardware...I'm tired of having underpowered devices, I'm tired of key things missing, companies need to step up to the plate. I applaud Toshiba for loading the TG01 to the teeth with hardware, but am disappointed in them letting a 5 year old design their interface. Like it or love it....this is where we sit. I wouldn't trade it for any other OS.

I think you're right when you say that every man and his dog are knocking out winmo phones - how many X1 users are aware that behind their panels is WM? It's not a must have for the average punter, at least not like the iPhone, that is just lovely to look at, but that's where it ends for me. When their adverts brag that you can cut and paste - to me that's the measure of the device. I would have been gutted if I'd got one and found it wouldn't do the simplest of tasks - almost like making a Walkman with no headphone socket; pointless.
I've no experience of Android, so i can't comment, but it appears to be going where WM should be.
I just wish that the mainstream media were a little more informed about WM and it's benefits, not least the adaptability and flexibility and the years of experience that is available.

I'm stuck on Windows Mobile because it's the only platform with the functionality I demand.
Android shows promise, and it may even have a decent Office suite if someone's ported OpenOffice.org (to help me overcome the lack of SoftMaker Office), but I don't know if the multimedia format support will be as good as TCPMP on Windows Mobile, and I certainly don't know if it has a PIM suite worth dirt, let alone capable of standing up to the good old Pocket Informant + PocketBreeze combo (or, better yet, an Apple Newton MessagePad 2000/2100, which is actually still a better device than the new iPhones and iPod touches in some respects, especially if it's PIM and battery life).
I must admit, though, the Creative Zii Egg enticed me with its specs. It just fell flat by not having a hardware keyboard and only having a 480x320 screen when I'm used to 640x480 and want to move all the way up to 800x480. Then again, the other device I want-the Samsung Mondi-has only a microSDHC slot as opposed to a full-size SDHC slot and only 4 GB of internal storage instead of a whopping 32 GB. It also lacks multitouch, but at least the resistive digitizer permits a stylus with a fine point. Finally, it's 50 US$ more expensive than the Zii Egg.
(Also, you might notice something in common with those two devices: they are NOT phones. What happened to the non-phone Windows Mobile devices, ruggedized GETAC units aside? I mean, Apple has the iPod touch for those who want most of the iPhone experience, but don't want to be tied to AT&T and may not even care for the phone part. The Samsung Mondi was a surprising exception to that rule, though it veers close to phone territory with that WiMAX radio. Just wait 'til Clearwire gets some actual coverage, and Mondi owners are gonna Skype/Google Voice/VoIP it up...)

I believe Windows Mobile is being left behind in terms of processing speed of its applications. Sure they are releasing devices with powerful processors to cope up, but I believe the best solution is to redesign WM from within, so that even slow processors can handle humongous applications. Other than that...I don't think I have any other complaints against WM. That is why I have always been praying for more powerful devices.

Honestly, I think the truth is that WM6 is going to be dead in the near future. I expect WM7 to be a radical departure from previous versions, and I think we'll see a more powerful, more functional, more consumer-friendly ecosystem emerge. Unless, of course, it tanks.
WM6 isn't dead yet from a user standpoint and there IS new software being released, especially cool little user-made apps. For flashy commercial apps, though, I think it's largely a dead platform. Windows Mobile was developed as an OS for executives and tech geeks, not mainstream consumers. That won't change until WM7.

Lets be honest, if winmo came out properly and had all the OS functionality the we crave, this site would be severely lacking. The majority of the apps for WINMO are used to do things that the should be successfully doing in the first place. Finger friendly menus, better functionality (calendar,appointments,settings..etc), and more eye pleasing apps (SMS,contacts,taskmanager)....these are the short comings of winmo....but our biggest flaw might honestly be our biggest perk.
I like tweaking, I like to choose what I want, skin it how I want it, I can go from Vito-contacts to I contacts, to finger friendly contacts...I can play with SPB3, Winterface, Pointui....I can make my phone whatever I want it...do that with an Iphone....matterfact, I'll take my Touch HD and do the Iphone UI for you, hell give us a few months and I'll show you android as well.
It seems with Manila 2.5 coming, and Samsung's Omnia2 rolling, windows is doing just fine. If you want to see a TV commercial about it...don't blame M$, they just create the OS...blame the companies who make the phones for not advertising, but I don't believe advertising is needed because our phones sell themselves. M$ just needs to tidy up some of the UI, make it snappy make it transition, make it not hog memory, and the Hardware will make it sing. Right now we have the hardware with the software which is why the Omnia2 still lags and runs slow even though its running 800MHz. WINCE ftw.
Right now honestly, I hold my breath for the X3...it makes android look so silky

66mustang said:
What a rediculous argument. I know WM is the best mobile OS, but then Betamax was the best video system.
I'm not talking about what's important for me, I'm talking about what people see as available - WM gets no mainstream media coverage, no-one goes into shops asking for it (just try going into an O2 shop or Carphone Warehouse and attempting to get an informed conversation from the sales staff about any WM device) and then we get a snowball effect where none of the 'killer' apps are being devloped for it - all efforts are being made towards the iPhone because it's sexy, WM is much better, more flexible, but ultimately nerdy (not that the general public even know it exists).
Maybe it'll remain as the business class mobile OS, which I'll be happy with as there's always the skilled people on here and similar sites to keep the software coming. Thanks guys.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if this gets off topic, but I find Phen0m had a valid point, and in fact, philosophically a sound argument. Even more so when you say "I'm fast thinking WM is a dead technology."
On topic, the question for me is left behind "in what areas?" I believe you are absolutely right about the press coverage, the hype etc and that the more consumer oriented, mass market kind of apps could end up not being developed for the WM platform if the market is too small. Possibly you could always speculate that there will be some differentiation in the market, where one brand/and or platform could become the premier consumer product, and other platforms become more corporate centric. This type of niche development would be natural in most markets.
On the other hand, many consumers don't care what the OS is, and so we've seen reasonable success with Samsung's Omnia and HTC's Diamond. As long as there is widespread consumer acceptance of WM phones it's likely consumer oriented apps will be developed.

In comparison to the iPhone and Android, WinMo has been around for quite a long time. As such it has to be backwardly compatable with programs written to run on WM2002. It is no use if you release a super wizzo updated OS, if all previous stuff is rendered unservicable overnight. Programs, whether they are written in Win32 or .NET, still have to work.
In some respects Microsoft has one hand tied behind its back on this one. As the iPhone and Android develop further they will also hit the same problem. CE 6.0 may allow a few major changes but that will probably be WinMo 7. 6.5 seems a bit half-baked as yet.

stephj said:
In comparison to the iPhone and Android, WinMo has been around for quite a long time. As such it has to be backwardly compatable with programs written to run on WM2002. It is no use if you release a super wizzo updated OS, if all previous stuff is rendered unservicable overnight. Programs, whether they are written in Win32 or .NET, still have to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a feeling that WM7 might not support previous WM apps (though I assume it'll be easy to port, especially .NET stuff). I could be wrong, but I have a definite suspicion that MS actually WANTS a clean break.

typo said:
I could be wrong, but I have a definite suspicion that MS actually WANTS a clean break.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could be right.
WM certainly needs a clean break. Android is a breath of fresh air.

stephj said:
In comparison to the iPhone and Android, WinMo has been around for quite a long time. As such it has to be backwardly compatable with programs written to run on WM2002. It is no use if you release a super wizzo updated OS, if all previous stuff is rendered unservicable overnight. Programs, whether they are written in Win32 or .NET, still have to work.
In some respects Microsoft has one hand tied behind its back on this one. As the iPhone and Android develop further they will also hit the same problem. CE 6.0 may allow a few major changes but that will probably be WinMo 7. 6.5 seems a bit half-baked as yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree here, because a lot of developers have dumped everything prior to Windows Mobile 5 already. It puts me between a rock and a hard place when it comes to deciding which OS to run on my hx4700, at least until I can afford the Samsung Mondi.
Windows Mobile 2003 SE and earlier have no decent Web browsers (about the best you're going to get is IBM J9 + Opera Mini, and getting that running in full VGA is a hassle), no new Skype client support, no new media players, and who knows what else.
If Windows Mobile 7 gets a focus on the finger, though, then they'll definitely need a clean break. Heck, it's even stated to have multi-touch as a REQUIREMENT. I just hope it doesn't come at the expense of the stylus.

This thought has occurred to me in the last few months. WM is nothing in the public eye due to a lack of press. There is a flip side to this though.
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Luckily it can be skinned so Samsung, HTC, Toshiba, etc... can spice it up, put their own spin on it and actually brand it with their phones. Once HTC created TouchFlo and the other companies picked up on this feature, WM became much more valuable to the phone manufacturers. It allows them create a brand identity without spending the time and money on creating a new OS. They get the tried and true while looking innovative. The hardware and interfaces will need to improve for WM to retake the market again.
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I've never used Android so no comment. The iphone is all about apps and advertising. The clones love it and that is a powerful market tool, but eventually it will have to graduate to a true multitasking system to hang on. Palm, Blackberry and WM are always adjusting when forced so I expect major improvements in what we get once the world economy changes course.

What I'm thinking is that Microsoft waited a little too long to start catching up. Maybe they didn't think the iPhone was a threat...or maybe they thought that HTC and others could do things like TouchFlo3d and TouchWiz and "cover up"...but as it stands now, we've had a few years, the iPhone has had several iterations, Android is releasing its second go-around of products, the Pre is now on stage one, and the "old guys" like WinMo, BlackBerry, S60, are left holding the bag.
6.5 is too little, too late. ZuneHD's interface is AMAZING...so if Microsoft thinks to put something like it with WM7, it won't be too little, but it may still be too late.
(As far as I'm concerned, Nokia and RIM are in the same boat, and they are actually doing worse at catching up than Microsoft with the OS or HTC with software around the OS and hardware)
From a public standpoint, WinMo has suicided its mindshare. This doesn't mean WinMo is technically worthless...but rather it's not in the spotlight.

i cannot believe some of you people actually prefer WM over Webos or the IPhone's OS.
i switched from a IPhone 3G to a TMO Tp2 wednesday(8/12) when it came out. i believe everything i read on here that WM is not that bad. now i know you all either have your head so deep in the sand you have no idea what other OS's are capable of or your not willing to admit it.
Opera 9.5 is good. but the scrolling is erratic. this is probably a product of Resistive touchscreens. so it's hard to fault the OS here. but even the built in IE has nicer scrolling (to me at least)
Random slow downs, in a call no less having Touchflo slow down to the point that the person you are sending a text to gets the text, AND replies to you before the OS even confirms the message was sent is insane.
lack of software, i know WM has more applications then any other phone OS. but where do i find them all? google works. but i spend hours searching for something decent. much less free. and then i have my personal information spread out all over the place on the web. great.
don't get me wrong. i LOVE the hardware on the Tp2. the keyboard is fantastic, the screen looks amazing and the battery life rocks. but WTF is going on with the software? i've spent more time fighting with the OS to accomplish what i want in the last few days then i spent in the previous 15 months playing with an IPhone.
hopefully WM6.5 and cooked roms bring something decent to the table. because this is just a train wreck.
/rant

[Q] What does WP7 need the most to convert other OS users?

Listed 4 choices in the poll, if you vote Other... please post a reply with what you think would make an android/iOS/blackberry user convert to wp7.

i guess less microsoft would be the right answer. what a pitty that this really powerfull devices can't even play most avi videos just because they are divx or xvid. mkv can't be played to. mobile phones are focussed on multimedia, but that's not a good deal. who wants to use or convert almost everything to wmv? nobody!
and zune is a pretty nice software buit people don't want to be forced to use it. That's what many complain abot iphone and itunes, and is most probably the reason they pick up android.
Only apple is able to do stupid things like that because they aim a very special group of consumers, who doesn't care what the devices can do. they just need to have the newest fancy apple product.
What a shame, because on the other side i think winphone7 is really the most modern and sophisticated OS at the moment.

Definitely not the first 3 choices.
I voted "other" thinking about UI workflow and different concept of this.
Devices and Marketing are worse than other platforms.
Some features are better but there is alot missing too.

Other: The Apple/Google Brand name. People have a tendency to buy any crap from Apple or Google these days as long as its not Microsoft.
But yeah in the long run thru good word of mouth WP7 will eventually win

Interesting answers...
I associate microsoft and windows with good software. Just look at Office and tell me it's not the ****. On the other hand, Apple does make very "pretty" software. It makes you feel special when you use it because it animates and looks a certain way.
Google has always been the odd one, it has horrible UI and their chrome browser is ugly as well.

I agree with everyone else to an extent, but I actually think that the biggest thing is that it is lacking in features. You can't send video clips via text message, you can't have custom alert sounds and you can't even have custom ring tones (without hacking it). I think that missing features such as these is a major turn off for people looking for a new phone.

Windows Phone 7 needs a constant and unending series of free commercials losely disguised as the evening news. Just in day to day contact it seems like the majority of people don't really "hate" MSFT, but they love to get caught up in the hype provided by the masters of buzz, Apple and the likes. MSFT should just drop some checks in the pockets of these pseudo-reporters we know as bloggers and buy their buzz.
We all know that the masses do not really care about the number of cores, an extra 0.1 inch of screen size, or an extra megapixel of camera resolution (if they did the iPhone would not be eatng other manufacturer's lunch). They want to walk into the room and when they take out their phone they want someone to say "is that the latest iPhone?"
This is not a slight at iPhone users, I still have my 3GS, but today people's phones are like their car or wardrobe. It's sometime a fashion accessory.
Sorry to ramble. I know I'm not saying anything that those on this forum haven't already observed.

Nobody975 said:
I agree with everyone else to an extent, but I actually think that the biggest thing is that it is lacking in features. You can't send video clips via text message, you can't have custom alert sounds and you can't even have custom ring tones (without hacking it). I think that missing features such as these is a major turn off for people looking for a new phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Video to text, and custom ring tones added to mango
Sent from my Windows Phone Mango Focus using Board Express

mikroland said:
Video to text, and custom ring tones added to mango
Sent from my Windows Phone Mango Focus using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I Actually just upgraded to mango and I have found many nice upgrades, but I was unable to attach a video to a text. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong! lol I'm still disappointed though that it is such a tedious process to use a custom ringtone... I should be able to just pick a song under Zune, hiold it for a sec. and choose an option "Set as ringtone"...But, that is not how easy it is...Not too much of a problem for me, but I have a few friends who are bothered by it.

...I voted for "better marketing". Having had GSM devices since the beginning and having been a "WM Power User" for a couple of years, flashing and tweaking everything I was able to lay hands on, I can say that WP7, even in the actual NoDo-Version is the most awesome OS I ever used. Before settling for WP7, I also tried Android on an HTC HD2 and I found it had basically the same problems as WM6.5 WP7 is working "out of the box" and I don't need to spend hours flashing and tweaking to make in run smoothly. There are of course some features which are still missing, but most of them will be included in Mango. And Mango will not be the end of the line.....
WP7 needs a better and more agressive marketing. Apple managed to establish "iPhone" as synonym for "smartphone" and ironically with hardware which has never been top technology. Even with the millions of Apple and Android devices in the market, this only scratches the surface of the potential and future markets of smartphones which goes into billions. The WP7 alliance of Microsoft, the makers, the providers and the trade have to find an efficient way to communicate the advantages of the WP7 philosophy (don't let your phone take over your life) to the non technic affine public, which actually are the hughe majority of the potential users.....

It actually needs all of these. In fact, it's an easy textbook case in terms of theory, here's what they need:
1. Meaningful effective positioning and branding. The "Really?" ads won't cut it. The "In and Out" message is totally missing the point, nobody understands what it's about. Using the "Windows Phone" name is totally stupid.
2. Variety of cool and sexy hardware (not the 4.7" Eternity stuff, and not just one or two decent phones, with all the buzzwords in place such as megapixels, gigabytes, super AMOLED plus ultra, what not), shelf presence everywhere (countries, operators), and of course training/stimulating floor staff.
3. Completed concept of hubs/integration, for third party apps/services to really be an integral part of the OS, or "immersive" as MS call it.
4. Seamless backup/device-to-device migration, carrying over settings, app data etc. This isn't crucial right now, but will be a must have in a year or so, and could be a differentiating factor over Android, although it's more important for markets where handsets aren't subsidized. In the US this can wait. However, a migration path from Android/iOS would be useful even there.
5. Integration with "big" Windows, Windows on tablets which would work well with WP7, together with repositioned/rebranded/streamlined Live services which should be a joy to use as opposed to current PITA state.
6. Introducing lots of things for media to talk about over the next year or two.
7. Profit
Unfortunately, 1. is out of the question, not gonna happen. Hardware depends on manufacturers (Nokia alone won't do it). Most other things, even if understood at Microsoft, will take a year at least. So don't expect anything radically exciting happening this year.

Numbers.
It's a numbers game - more devices = more users.

Also have it so that my WP7 phone will mount as a hard drive without Zune software. So dumb that it doesn't. All of my Androids do that!

Android: Does the OS sell the hardware? or is the hardware selling the OS?

When it comes to android, you know that you have an outstanding range of hardware. From the low-end Optimus T/S to the titans of the OS such as the Galaxy S2, and everything imaginable in between. These days, you can even find generic china phones running an, often dated, android. Every carrier has it, they come in all price ranges, and they're available on demand. The question I pose to you, "Is android's key selling point the hardware?"
I understand that numerous XDA members and even some outsiders enjoy the limitless customization options made readily available in android and that's awesome. However, the general consumer is happy to end customization at setting their own ringtone. It's not a breaking factor for the majority that you can swap out kernels. Overall, android is a decent enough platform, but for the masses, I see little that it offers, hardware aside, that it's competitors don't.
Here recently, a thread was posted regarding the ASUS Transformer 2, a pentacore processor in a tablet. Now, most people have yet to exhaust the resources on their dual core phones. A penta-core device seems to be pushing the limits. Considering that it is running a mobile OS, by the time those cores could be utilized, wouldn't the tablet be long outdated? However, I know it will sell well because the word "Penta-core" sounds too awesome for the masses to pass up.
Another occurrence I've seen, having worked in retail shops for some time. A lot of customers, when asked about what OS their phone is running, will reply, "HTC" or, "Samsung." A lot of them have no idea what our little green friend is. Another point towards my personal opinion that the hardware is a huge selling factor.
Overall, android is a very complete platform. It is not my daily driver, but I do enjoy it whenever I have time to tinker. I am inquiring about this matter to get your opinions, what sells? Hardware or software?

I think for me its a little bit of both. I like the fact that the hardware is there in my 3d when I need to push the system really hard. Its not often I do, but its good that when I do, it executes the tasks with ease.
On the same hand there are huge software benefits for me. I love the UI and that I can set swype gestures to open particular apps or settings. It makes multi tasking tthat much easier and fluid for me.
Also, at least from what I have seen with iOS5 (my girl has the 4s) is that android seems to be ahead in certain areas of functionality. For example it is not an innovative thing (to me anyways, being an android user) to be able to back up your device without the use of a computer... I have been doing wireless backups and internal backups since I bought my first android phone.
I think one thing you mentioned before... I think it was you, anyways... was pretty much right on when you said that android is capable of meeting so many different needs in the sense that you have a wide range in variety of devices to choose from and at different costs. There are high end phones available such that perform to today's standards in the mobile world, and there are lower end ones available that are more cost effective.
I feel if you yourself are innovative and creative, you are way more capable of taking an android phone and building the UI to what you want/need. I don't sacrifice functionality for speed, ever. In the end it is still just a phone, but I prefer this platform because it caters to that need I have to customize my phone the way I want it to be, not what somebody else feels it should be.
---------- Post added at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 AM ----------
And to address your comment about the bajjillion core tab....
Seems the hardware is way ahead of the software in this case... therefore, I am not impressed by it.
I have a Motorola xoom and it has plenty of power to do what I need it to do. I will not be taking it back to simply have two more cores under the hood. And somebody else mentioned the new kal el device only has 1gb of ram? In my opinion that is really disappointing for a device with that kind of processing power.

i buy phones based on hardware specs
the OS is optional
I prefer to load my OS of choice
just like my PCs / Laptops

z33dev33l said:
When it comes to android, you know that you have an outstanding range of hardware. From the low-end Optimus T/S to the titans of the OS such as the Galaxy S2, and everything imaginable in between. These days, you can even find generic china phones running an, often dated, android. Every carrier has it, they come in all price ranges, and they're available on demand. The question I pose to you, "Is android's key selling point the hardware?"
I understand that numerous XDA members and even some outsiders enjoy the limitless customization options made readily available in android and that's awesome. However, the general consumer is happy to end customization at setting their own ringtone. It's not a breaking factor for the majority that you can swap out kernels. Overall, android is a decent enough platform, but for the masses, I see little that it offers, hardware aside, that it's competitors don't.
Here recently, a thread was posted regarding the ASUS Transformer 2, a pentacore processor in a tablet. Now, most people have yet to exhaust the resources on their dual core phones. A penta-core device seems to be pushing the limits. Considering that it is running a mobile OS, by the time those cores could be utilized, wouldn't the tablet be long outdated? However, I know it will sell well because the word "Penta-core" sounds too awesome for the masses to pass up.
Another occurrence I've seen, having worked in retail shops for some time. A lot of customers, when asked about what OS their phone is running, will reply, "HTC" or, "Samsung." A lot of them have no idea what our little green friend is. Another point towards my personal opinion that the hardware is a huge selling factor.
Overall, android is a very complete platform. It is not my daily driver, but I do enjoy it whenever I have time to tinker. I am inquiring about this matter to get your opinions, what sells? Hardware or software?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First time I have to agree with you pal.BUT:
i)Those guys/gals whose customisation needs end with setting the ringtone are the ones who won't care or even won't realize if the OS is different between an iPhone and an Android device.
ii)Android offers most(if not all) of the things other OSes offer,plus the infinite customisation capabilities no other OS has.Now this is what matters for those of us who can do more than changing the ringtone.
Other than these two things,I generally agree.In the end,though,it's user preference that matters.And people's idiocy in fact.Hell,many people buy their phones depending on how many megapixels their camera can do!

AllGamer said:
I prefer to load my OS of choice
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd prefer that too, but mobile hardware is pretty much completely closed, so this is not really possible in practice, except maybe on very very few models.
To answer the title question: I don't know about others, but for me it's definitely the OS. Android is the closest to Linux as I'll probably get on a phone, people are free to cook up their own ROMs (not completely free in many cases, there's closed components in every ROM, but oh well), vast customization capabilities, for getting software you're not limited to one store with draconian rules and sometimes arbitrary decisions.

Certainly a combination of software + hardware with a little bit of company preference.
But considering the range of manufacturers for android based phones, I find it hard to lag behind hardware wise.

1) I look for a device that I think will last me the three years of my contract or at least the majority of it
2) I look here on XDA and see what the dev community is like
3) I buy the phone

I would guess that for 80%+ of phone buyers the main factor is price. Sure they know about the iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy devices, but for most those phohnes are out of their price bracket. So they find the device which has the same sort of idea but in a cheap package, which has helped Android no end since there are low end Android devices, and Apple have little interest in that.
For myself as a more techie person, I use Android becuase of the freedom to do what i want with my hardware. At least that's why i got into Android. Now I will continue to buy Android devices, but the major reason is I've invested in the app market, I have tens of pounds worth of apps for Android. To jump to anotehr platform now would mean having to start over with that. That's the power of these stores and markets, once you are invested changing platform is a lot more of a jump that just deciding which you like the most at the time.

countstex said:
I would guess that for 80%+ of phone buyers the main factor is price. Sure they know about the iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy devices, but for most those phohnes are out of their price bracket. So they find the device which has the same sort of idea but in a cheap package, which has helped Android no end since there are low end Android devices, and Apple have little interest in that.
For myself as a more techie person, I use Android becuase of the freedom to do what i want with my hardware. At least that's why i got into Android. Now I will continue to buy Android devices, but the major reason is I've invested in the app market, I have tens of pounds worth of apps for Android. To jump to anotehr platform now would mean having to start over with that. That's the power of these stores and markets, once you are invested changing platform is a lot more of a jump that just deciding which you like the most at the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've seen the price comment being made multiple times but aren't these devices pretty close to each other in terms of price after a 2 yr contract? In fact if you shop around, you can find some of these highend units for nearly nothing from online stores such as amazon
As for me, overall package is what sold me to galaxy s2. Form factor, hardware specs, overall implementation of the OS (gpu acceleration various places), etc. Version number really doesn't really bother me (2.3.3 vs 2.3.4/5/6/7) as long as there aren't any key features missing in the current revision that exists in the newer revisions.

Gusar321 said:
I'd prefer that too, but mobile hardware is pretty much completely closed, so this is not really possible in practice, except maybe on very very few models.
To answer the title question: I don't know about others, but for me it's definitely the OS. Android is the closest to Linux as I'll probably get on a phone, people are free to cook up their own ROMs (not completely free in many cases, there's closed components in every ROM, but oh well), vast customization capabilities, for getting software you're not limited to one store with draconian rules and sometimes arbitrary decisions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HD2 was a great example
then there are many other HTC devices that did the same
and a few Samsung devices as well
and there's the HP Touchpad
and...

For most people it's both.
They're attracted for the first time by the look and find the OS easy to use.
Despite people stating that the iphone is for people who just want to use a smartphone for the first time etc and Android is for techies and geeks to customise, if that were actually true then that would mean that there are a hell of a lot of geeks out there, which obviously isn't the case.
I would guess the majority of Android users' extent of customisation is changing the picture of their wallpaper, and that's the thing, with Android you can do that, it's easy to use, with the extra buttons it can seem more logical to new users compared with the single button on the iphone for instance.
It has the "apps and the wifis" that average users want, it looks good and you can make it look pretty much how you like.
Being able to just plug it into another computer and transfer files is a huge boon too, something a colleague was very disappointed with the iphone4 because of it's lack of ability.

There is 500+ android devices on the market globally, its the brand name and hardware specs that sell. Not the os.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

I'd rather say that that none of those sell the other: it's actually the price selling both, plus the "status symbol" factor thatbhas to do with Apple things. Androids are generally cheaper then both the iPhone and WP7 phones. This, plus the fact that most people don't seem to like WP7 tiled ui, basically because it doesn't "look like an iPhone" enough. That might sound harsh, like saying that most people are dumb, but it's not (only) that actually: people got used to icons since the day they got their first pc, no wonder they go for something that looks more familiar to them when they wanna buy a smartphone. Maybe Win8 will totally change the name of the game, but that's it for the moment (sadly enough I dare say).

I think we have to remember that 'most' people don't include the tiny fraction of the consumer market that are active on XDA. We make choices on a range of factors as we are better informed about both hardware and software. When we walk into a phone shop we want to assess the phone on build quality, size, Android version, display type, etc.
When the average punter walks into the same shop their buying choice usually boils down to no more than, 'Oh look, a shiny thing. I want that one'.

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Thread moved to Android. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.

Do you review the content of my threads before moving them or do you see my name and play pin the tail on the donkey with the final location of the thread?

My Thoughts on Most Operating Systems Since the Beginning of Smartphones

Well, after developing for a few different OSes (WinMo, Windows Phone, Meego, Maemo, Android, BBOS) and owning pretty much every high end phone under the sun, I thought I'd pour out my thoughts pertaining to each individual OS and why I feel this way about them. This is by no means a comprehensive guide or anything to live by. Just one person's experience in each OS that I've used.
Windows Mobile:
Have to start with the classic, I never owned a Palm and WinMo had a place in my heart from the first time I ordered that HTC Wallaby, of course back then it was something like, "Microsoft Pocket PC 200X" or some outlandish name like that. Oh man, 32 MB of ram on a phone? This thing was monstrous! Mockeries aside, it started a love affair, the likes of which many girls came to be jealous of. I was an avid Winmo fanboy, transitioning from the Wallaby, to the Samsung Behold, HTC Dash, Samsung Behold 2, HTC Touch, HTC PPC 6800, then the Samsung Omnia which was everything a phone should be at the time. I remember geeking out so hard over the accelerometer. So few phones had them back then. I even briefly went back to WinMo after starting Android when I saw how amazing the HTC HD2 was.
I always felt that, despite not being truly open source, Windows Phone was just so much more capable than Android. I know that's not the case but it definitely felt like it. That and the launchers for it offered so much more depth than the same generic rows of icons with one added, mostly menial, feature. I played my first PS1 emulator on Winmo which made me love it by itself and I also co-developed my first app on it. It was an awful little RPG with 32 bit graphics but I was so proud you wouldn't believe it. It was my high school project and my little game blew people away. The OS was definitely not without flaws. HTC delved in as far as they were allowed to make the menus usable by something that wasn't a stylus but could only go so far which required a pretty nice and very well-aimed push right on the check box. If you missed it, too bad. This was also mostly on resistive screen technology making the odds of being dead on much worse. I'd also get random reboots even when I was just texting at times. Still, I remember having so much trouble transitioning into Android only because how could I use an OS without Swype? Sounds like some kind of sadistic torture if you ask me... WinMo held it's own and just destroyed the iPhone in every way except being pretty. For that and for it's time frame, it will always hold a special place in my heart.
My next big transition was into Android. I saw HTC making a big move and I was an HTC fan. That Z Hinge on the HTC Dream/G1 was too cool and futuristic to pass up, plus who doesn't like track balls? So, I went to Android. Android has and will always be to me, a very basic OS that the consumer is expected to make usable. This isn't based off just the one HTC Dream (Which, funny enough, is currently flashed with Kit Kat) I've actually owned over 80 Android phones throughout the years. I've felt this way even on my Galaxy S4. I became a fan only because I got to say, "Oh, your iPhone can... Well, mine actually has 3G and can picture message." It was all a battle with the iPhone for us early adopters. A battle that back then, we won. Then, Apple kept progressing, they fixed all of the little things that effected everyone and only left flaws for us nerds to gripe about. That war quickly became pandering. Something along the lines of, "Well, my phone has this trivial gimmick so it's better than yours!" I was literally trading around and upgrading phones every 1-2 weeks. I lived in Austin and there is always someone dumb enough on Craigslist to trade you what you want there if you make yours sound sweeter, especially when it's not. I had pretty much every GSM Android phone released in the US from the G1 to the Galaxy S2 Of course there were some that I missed but I even had that awful Garminfone Asus that we all try to forget existed. I always wanted something that could keep up but as I was playing RoboDefense on my Android device, the iPhone was getting Infinity Blade. It got to the point where I harbored a distaste for Android but I was too stubborn to go iPhone. Roughly when I reached that point is when Windows Phone 7 dropped. Android was dead in the water to me though I still own Android devices. They're there for development. My opinion on Android is this, it is a foundation. It's something that you take and you build on to make good. It is awful as a standalone. That said, individuals aren't going to be able to make the same quality software that a multi-billion dollar company can. To this day there are no good keyboards on Android. The OS is still buggy, there are still no devices that feel premium and there is still far too much lag even on the revered Nexus devices. I think that perhaps the Oneplus One might aid in resolving some of these issues based solely on videos but anything can be spoofed in a video.
So, on to Windows Phone 7. Spoiler alert: I hated it. At least I thought I did. I got the HD7 three days prior to release due to an error and was so excited. After using the Galaxy S Vibrant with it's AMOLED display, the HD7 looked awfully washed out but I'll deal, whatever. I thought I wanted those roms though, I thought I wanted Swype, I thought I wanted app folders. So, I traded that HD7 for a Dell Streak. Many of us remember this as the first "Phablet" with it's absolutely massive 5 inch screen *snicker* and prior to the HD7, I thought it my dream phone. I was absolutely giddy to get that trade... Then, I started really noticing Android's flaws. The incessant lagging, the bad keyboard, everything. I missed that HD7. I missed Windows Phone. I missed a coherent and speedy experience. I hunted and hunted and finally found another HD7. This was late in the year, maybe October, and for Christmas, I knew what I wanted. The Dell Venue Pro. Hands down, the best hardware keyboard I've ever used and I've used most. It was the first of two phones to ever last me more than two months and actually retained use for a full 8 or 9 months. I loved the thing. It was everything I wanted in a phone. Then, in a stroke of luck, I got offered to be a part of Nokia's developer program and got a pair of Nokia Lumia 800s shipped to me. I believe one was supposed to be for my old development partner who'd left to pursue other interests two months earlier so I had two Nokia Lumia 800s. One of which I traded for a Nokia N9 and both of which inspired a love for Nokia in general Nokia sells Windows Phone as well, if not better than the OS and the early marketing was often effective and always hilarious. This phone was bulletproof... I got pushed into a pool holding it, I fell off a motorcycle with it in my pocket and landed on it and this thing just kept going. In my opinion, it's the highest quality Nokia device with a touchscreen. However, it wasn't long til I realized that it would soon be tragically obsolete with the release of Windows Phone 8. I made the sad decision to trade it for the iPhone 4S which was new and worth a lot more at the time in hopes that I might soon trade the iPhone for a Lumia whatever comes out. Windows Phone 8 is an entirely different monster so I'll come back to that one. Ultimately, Windows Phone laid a strong foundation but due to poor support on the part of developers, it really was as their advertisement said, A phone to keep you away from your phone.
So, as I stated, my next endeavor was Meego. I also branched in to Maemo at this point but it was pretty uneventful and I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other about it. I got myself a cyan 64 gig monster with a front facing camera, imaging software that destroyed any other non-Nokia phone at the time and features that Samsung is just now incorporating into their phones while claiming they're revolutionary. Meego is also a heavily gesture driven OS which, let's face it, is the future. Meego, to me, was what Android should have been. It was smoother, it felt alive, it was on a premium device, it seldom lagged, it was pretty and it was bursting with features. Honestly, I still wish I hadn't gotten rid of that thing. I might still use it as a backup if I hadn't but as a broke College kid obsessed with the latest and greatest I had to get rid of both for the Nokia Lumia 920 which I don't regret but I would still love to have that huge piece of cell phone history. To date, I'd say it's the only non-Windows phone to breach my top 5 favorite phones of all time. Everything was seamless, the experience was great... I'll be honest, I had 0 complaints with this phone. I mean, sure there weren't a lot of apps but the basics were there and at the time it trumped Windows Phone in that regard. Aside from that, I wish Meego were still alive.
Then, there's iOS. I had this phone all the way up to iOS 7 so I can give at least some opinion on each version from then on. iOS when I got it on the 4S was ugly, plain and simple. It looked so painfully outdated that I had to jailbreak it just so looking at it didn't give me an aneurysm. The keyboard was almost as bad as Android's and the auto-correct was worse. It just felt like a jumbled mess at all times regardless of how things were arranged. If I had to explain iOS as an OS at that point, I'd call it a glorified app launcher because it was little else in my eyes. That said, as it progressed they added new features to make it a unique experience and enhance Siri (The one part of the OS I enjoyed) to offer deeper integration though it doesn't touch Google Now or Cortana. My biggest issue is that if you went Apple, it seemed you had to go all Apple or bust. To get out of their stupid iMessage system is hell, want to transfer contacts away from iPhone? Too bad, go through this lengthy and unorthodox process to do so. It was pretty bad. 7 added a few gestures I really liked but having been spoilt by Meego at this point, it was pretty underwhelming in comparison. iOS, to this date, feels like a glorified app launcher that they occasionally attach a new gimmick to for people to confuse for revolutionary. At least they finally made it easy on the eyes though.
Now, back in to Windows Phone 8. Given that my brand new Lumia 800s were made obsolete, I wanted something profound. What it felt like I got were slight improvements and a lot of apps that I'd paid money for that didn't transfer over. Some of my favorite Windows Phone 7 games don't exist on Windows Phone 8. This includes several Xbox live titles that I poured a bit of funds into including Tentacles, Splinter Cell, and the bullet hell game that Cave released for us. The name escapes me at present. I was taken aback, I had given up my perfect little Lumia 800 for this? The Lumia 920 which felt okay in comparison. On top of that, the wireless charging coil wasn't even in my first one so I needed a replacement and had to settle for black instead of yellow for my replacement. Overall, the experience started rough. Then, there was wordflow. Since the beginning of phones, I'd always wanted a keyboard that was smart. Sure, there are learning keyboards out there but none compared to Windows Phone's. I don't know who Belfiore sacrificed to The Dark Lord but this is perfect. The live tiles also certainly kept me enveloped. The slightly better customization in different tile sizes also made everything a bit less stagnant. Overall, it warranted at least a continued interest. Since then, I feel that Windows Phone has made great strides plus, thanks to Nokia, they're releasing the highest quality devices of any OS. At this point, I feel like Nokia took Windows Phone and single-handedly built it. The 8X was a beautiful device with a lot of issues and no real added software and Samsung just tossed another OS on their galaxy series. However, despite being carried by a single OEM, Nokia paired with Microsoft has created an OS to be revered and even with little things like Glance background has really flexed their muscles. Overall, the OS wasn't enough of an upgrade to just sell me but thanks to Nokia's additions and the overall quality of the OS that it exuded from it's Windows Phone 7 roots, it is the premium OS. That said, there is still an app gap that was made even worse by the poor transition to Windows Phone 7 to 8 and they've shown that they're not shy about alienating users.
Then, there was the Blackberry. this is something I bought from someone locally for $40 very recently and overall, it's a new experience. What do I think so far? Well, it's budget Meego on higher end hardware. The gestures are not as good, the OS itself looks like a very confused version of Android (which has enough conflict of it's own) and it's heavily dependent on the work of other OSes to try to stay afloat. I never had the earlier Blackberry devices so perhaps there was a point at which they were ahead of the game and the hardware is honestly pretty amazing, easily matching the iPhone in terms of sheer quality. However, they sacrificed security which was a massive selling point for them in favor of trying to swim in the big kid's pool and to say that they failed miserably would be an understatement.
So, what am I rocking now? I'm sadly rocking a Lumia 1520. Not that it's bad, it's great really, just a bit big. I'd bite on the 930 but no Glance screen is a deal breaker. I also have a Moto G and a Blackberry z10 as backup/development devices. None of them have ever been taken out into the wild though because they're not functional daily drivers to me. A key point in my eyes is texting and the keyboards are pretty dismal. I know I've touted the Windows Phone keyboard a lot in this thread but honestly, it's that good and with the shapewriting technology in 8.1, they put themselves light years ahead of everyone else in a very necessary though sadly underappreciated area.

Wow, you've had quite the journey, it seems like you experience nearly every version of Android and the last couple versions of iOS, as well as every version of windows phone.
Personally, I've only had a 3GS, NL 521, and NL 1520 (current).
I got the iphone about two months before iOS 6 came out and so I really didn't experience any of the annoyances that made iOS less than pleasant. Still when I switched to WP somehow things still felt streets ahead.

SoI can say you have long experience using different smartphone OS
I have 3 questions
1- What is the best OS you have ever used ?
2- What is the OS which you think now is the best for your needs ?
3- What is the formula for the best Smartphone I mean which OS with which company hardware will make the best smartphone ?
Some people says Nokia smartphones hardware with Android OS.

one-option said:
SoI can say you have long experience using different smartphone OS
I have 3 questions
1- What is the best OS you have ever used ?
2- What is the OS which you think now is the best for your needs ?
3- What is the formula for the best Smartphone I mean which OS with which company hardware will make the best smartphone ?
Some people says Nokia smartphones hardware with Android OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. That's a real toss up between Windows Phone 8.1 and MeeGo
2. Windows Phone, you won't get something more intuitive. Sure, you can't customize or overclock or all that crap but you don't need to. It works perfet out of the box.
3. Nokia Windows Phone has me nailed down pretty hard. I wouldn't want Android on a Nokia because Nokia is about infallible quality and that's pretty much the opposite of Android.

I`he used Windows Phone, the system is intuitive, looks nice but there aren`t many features available on android.
iOS on tablets and iPhones is usefull but I always feel limited by prices or lack of some solutions that is why I choose android.
I know android from Capcake 1.5 and I was always pleased and surprised by subsequent changes of capabilities of the system.

Hi Poecifer
I agree with you, I have used Lumia 520, 720 & 920 and to be honest Windows Phone is such a stable system, but I left it back to Android because VPN & file manager wasn't supported at the time in the OS.
Now I'm waiting for the WP8.1 Nokia devices.
for me Lumia 630 is missing flash light & Lumia 930 come with small battery, hope Nokia will provide prime high end flagship soon.

Holy crap 80 androids, I've had like 3 or 4 phones in the last 10 years xD

Some experiences about the newly released Firefox OS?

You say you don't like android keyboards. What about SwiftKey? I've tried many keyboards, from all different os's, and I think SwiftKey is great. And as for androids lagging, I am currently using a n5, and have used a m8 and I experience zero lag from both of those phones. I was wondering where you experience lag in these higher end devices. Currently I'm all about Android, the only thing I dislike is the build quality. Even with the m8, it could have been designed better. All these companies designing android phones have no taste or style.

Is it (money)wise to upgrade to the new Apple iPhone 13(Pro)?

Hi all,
Since the release of the new Apple 13 (Pro) device, the main question is: do the new features of this new Apple iPhone justify to upgrade from an Apple 11 or Apple 12? In a lot of reviews the new Apple 13 is mainly seen as an/compared to the Apple 12S with minor added features. What are the new features of the new iPhone 13 (Pro)?
1. Better camera's compared to it's predecessors
2. More storage
3. A bit faster processor
4. Faster loading and a bit greater battery
But the question still remains, is it worth to upgrade?
IMPO, this is not the case when you own, as I do, the Apple Pro 12 Max. It's only worth to upgrade when you are a die-hard photographer. Then you will enjoy and appreciate the added new features in the Apple iPhone 13, which are somewhat disappointing regarding the costs. Also the update from iOS 14.8 to iOS 15 do not lead to big improvements, which is Apple unworthy unfortunately. Also the use of the lightning cable has become obsolete as of today. Apple has to switch to the, at this very moment, generally accepted USB C cable. A severe omission. What are your experciences and considerations to buy the new Apple iPhone? Am I right or wrong?
kindest regards, kuzibri

Whether the iPhone are pricey or not, totally depends on what weights more on your value scale.
iPhone is simple, easy to use (ridiculously easy), and very powerful in many aspects.
Apple managed to benefit from this combination.
Of course there's a lot of cons and pros, but there's something you need to know, if you were to buy a phone from Apple, Apple has one line of phones, and they are the company's flagship products.
You know how much flagship devices cost, the difference lays in what each OS offers. I personally don't like Apple products. So much underestimates.

I also disliked Apple products due to their stuberness to let us choose our own home display, etc. I acknowledged though that they made beautiful devices (my wife is an Apple addict). But at a certain moment, Apple released the watch 6 of which I was stunned by it's possibilities compared to the Fitbit Versa 2. I relealized that when I wanted to buy this watch, I also needed to buy an iPhone. Not so an interesting idea, UNTILL Apple released iOS 14.5, with which it was possible to achieve what I wanted, e.g. compose my own home display. This was the moment to make the switch for me and after one year now, I totally do not miss Android at all. Using the Apple now, I noticed a few things in comparison with Android: 1. It never crashes, 2. Updates, in contrast to Android, are not only on a very regular basis, but devices are also supported for a long time. Now iOS 15 is released, which still works on an iPhone 6S. This is not the case with the support of any of the Android devices. Besides that, altough the iPhones are not cheap, the Samsung top devices are also vey expensive. My home display is now exactly the same as I had on my Android devices. Regards kuzibri

I picked up my second new Note 10+, 256gb, 12gb ram for $800 a week ago.
Anything without a SD card slot is dead to me.
A dual drive 1.25tb handheld PC... hell yeah.
Apples run very good, are very easy to use, and bore me to tears. I loathe them; they are overpriced and use CCP sweat cities to manufacture them. The bright icons and pastels drive me insane; Debbie would love them.
Samsung's are the most customizable stock phones on the planet. Unfortunately the 10+ and Android 10 were Samsung's and Android's best releases to date respectively. Which is why I went with a 2nd 10+, sad but true.
It's ok because even after 2 years the 10+ is just plain fun to use; fast, stable, excellent build Q with one of the best displays there is even today. No high refresh rates but better color rendering than even some newer flagship phones. The display has perfectly square corners, none of that horrible CRT roundness here. 7mm thick, even in a good case it's thin. Pics don't do it justice. The spen nests until needed as a remote shutter release or for Smart Capture which is great to have.
No way I would upgrade the Apple, but I'm extremely biased and hate pastels

blackhawk said:
I picked up my second new Note 10+, 256gb, 12gb ram for $800 a week ago.
Anything without a SD card slot is dead to me.
A dual drive 1.25tb handheld PC... hell yeah.
Apples run very good, are very easy to use, and bore me to tears. I loathe them; they are overpriced and use CCP sweat cities to manufacture them. The bright icons and pastels drive me insane; Debbie would love them.
Samsung's are the most customizable stock phones on the planet. Unfortunately the 10+ and Android 10 were Samsung's and Android's best releases to date respectively. Which is why I went with a 2nd 10+, sad but true.
It's ok because even after 2 years the 10+ is just plain fun to use; fast, stable, excellent build Q with one of the best displays there is even today. No high refresh rates but better color rendering than even some newer flagship phones. The display has perfectly square corners, none of that horrible CRT roundness here. 7mm thick, even in a good case it's thin. Pics don't do it justice. The spen nests until needed as a remote shutter release or for Smart Capture which is great to have.
No way I would upgrade the Apple, but I'm extremely biased and hate pastels
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, very glad that I finally stirred up the discussion between Android and Apple users. As already mentioned, used to be a very satisfied Android user, but since Apple introduced the iOS 14, there is no difference anymore between an Android and Apple device. You're now able to make your own Home Screen, just like in Android. And let's be honest, which company gives updates so long to old devices as Apple. The most recent Apple iOS is 15 and runs on an Apple 6S. No Android device supports that long their devices. All in all, I do agree with earlier responders that Apple used to be boring, but that is now just ancient history since the release of iOS 14.5 and certainly now iOS15. Best regards, kuzibri

I haven't played with an Apple in 6 years... so there's that. That icon pack burns my eyes and display out though. Apple is going in unsavory directions on multiple fronts now. No SD card support alone though blows them out of the water.
As for updates once I have firmware that's fast, stable and fulfilling it's mission I leave it be. I rarely update and rarely have issues, that's not a coincidence. I may update my older 10+ running on 9 to 10, the same as the new one but that will be the last update.
Security simply isn't an issue. My current way outdated load is 16 months old, still fast and stable. No breaches.
All my critical data is redundantly backed up, a forced reload is the worst that could happen. Down time 2 hours, 6 if I need to repopulate the SD card. Any major firmware upgrade would cause far more downtime and worse could permanently degrade performance or capabilities.
I see no real advantage to updating an old device with a bloated OS it's hardware wasn't designed to handle. OS's tend to get larger, not smaller and are designed/optimized with the current hardware in use. So that 3, 5 whatever years support doesn't impress me in the least.
Tough choices if you are even considering one platform let alone two. I probably would wait to latter in 2022, even 2023. My next new purchase will be probably 2023 or latter. This year is a bust for Samsung and likely 2022. Apple may or may not be faring as badly, but there are supply chain issues worldwide. China is also having power infrastructure issues as well as a growing political storm both of their own making. I expect especially the latter to grow worse not better in the next 3 years.

kuzibri said:
Hi, very glad that I finally stirred up the discussion between Android and Apple users. As already mentioned, used to be a very satisfied Android user, but since Apple introduced the iOS 14, there is no difference anymore between an Android and Apple device. You're now able to make your own Home Screen, just like in Android. And let's be honest, which company gives updates so long to old devices as Apple. The most recent Apple iOS is 15 and runs on an Apple 6S. No Android device supports that long their devices. All in all, I do agree with earlier responders that Apple used to be boring, but that is now just ancient history since the release of iOS 14.5 and certainly now iOS15. Best regards, kuzibri
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't mean to be rude, I'm sorry, but .. do you really want to compare the customisation level between Apple & Android?
Apple is never close to a customisable OS, it has always been late to the party. Not just the home screen, there's a lot of features took it years to implement, though they were on Android for a long.
I used iPhone 11 Pro Max for about a week. I don't know, but I never got relieved about it. Leaving all the customisation behind, and step into a kindergarten?
One thing I hated was Apple's underestimation, they act & think on your behalf. If they thought a regular user don't need to manage files, they'll not integrate any support for file manager.
That's exactly how their security system works, if they thought something can risk the device, they don't build a firewall, they just eliminate the target. A very good example is the recent Visa payment hacking issue, where a warning was sent to remove the Visa as a payment method.
I see this very ridiculous, it gets the job done, but in a non-professional way.
In the other hand, Android does not think on your behalf, it gives you what an iPhone lacks, an option. A vast range of options, and if something doesn't suit you, you can change it. Or simply, build it.
I think I may use an iPhone when I'm dying or something. At least I won't have anything else to do but socialising.

Hi, "@Mohamedkam000: do you really want to compare the customisation level between Apple & Android?". No that is not my purpose. My point is that untill recentrly there were two incompatible worlds, e.g. the Android world vs the Apple one. Now, due to the the release of iOs 14.5 Apple offers somewhat more possibilities to customize your device. Untill recently I belonged to the Android world and my motto was always "Apple is for dummies", although I was also always under the impression of the build quality of the devices, which is beyond doubt. Since it's possible to customize your iPhone, it has become easier, certainly if you just like me want the Apple watch but not the iPhone, to make the switch to Apple. There is now more or less an "in-between" world. That's my point, no more or less. Kind regards, kuzibri
BTW: let's be honest, the best OS for mobile devices that even existed was Windows Mobile, which was as versatile as it could be. I owned an HTC HD2 with windows mobile, android and apple on one phone and all working perfect.

kuzibri said:
Hi, "@Mohamedkam000: do you really want to compare the customisation level between Apple & Android?". No that is not my purpose. My point is that untill recentrly there were two incompatible worlds, e.g. the Android world vs the Apple one. Now, due to the the release of iOs 14.5 Apple offers somewhat more possibilities to customize your device. Untill recently I belonged to the Android world and my motto was always "Apple is for dummies", although I was also always under the impression of the build quality of the devices, which is beyond doubt. Since it's possible to customize your iPhone, it has become easier, certainly if you just like me want the Apple watch but not the iPhone, to make the switch to Apple. There is now more or less an "in-between" world. That's my point, no more or less. Kind regards, kuzibri
BTW: let's be honest, the best OS for mobile devices that even existed was Windows Mobile, which was as versatile as it could be. I owned an HTC HD2 with windows mobile, android and apple on one phone and all working perfect.
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I can go ahead and bring the pros and cons of iOS, but that's a long fight. So I'm gonna stick into the reasons you're providing to justify iPhone.
kuzibri said:
due to the the release of iOs 14.5 Apple offers somewhat more possibilities to customize your device
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I don't think you ever tried custom ROMs on Android phones. CyanogenMod? What about MIUI custom ROMs of 2014? How about the famous LineageOS?
Okay let go of the systems, how about Xposed? Ever used it? Ever used Dr. Ketan's ROMs? I'm asking to see if you had any experience in deep customisation.
Okay, do you know that you can change the home screen launcher on Android? You can change icons? You can use themes? Not just a wallpaper, a full theme.
If you know that, I wonder how can you even think about saying the iPhone is comparable to the customisation level on Android.
kuzibri said:
"Apple is for dummies"
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The company does literally acknowledge this phrase. And they are right to assume that. But, they are profiting from their right assumption.
Apple treats people like babies, people don't need the complications of programming and themes and customisation and other stuff. People just need to pay and use the limited things Apple offers.
kuzibri said:
want the Apple watch but not the iPhone
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Safety features like Fall Detection, Emergency SOS, and high and low heart rate notifications make Apple Watch great for older family members, even if they don't own an iPhone.
Calling, texting, and location sharing provide an easy way to stay connected with the family. Where I live, no one cares about smart watches, so I can't speak about it.
One last thing:-
iPhone has been released earlier than Android, it was revolutionary back then, and as you know, first impressions has a very huge impact on the customer's preference.
I have a relative that is using an iPhone for appearances, but his actual primary phone is an Android. It simply helps him a lot in his work, for he don't need a laptop to manage files or something.

@Mohamedkam000 said: I don't think you ever tried custom ROMs on Android phones. CyanogenMod? What about MIUI custom ROMs of 2014? How about the famous LineageOS?" Yes in my Android time I have used a lot of custom ROM's, like f.i. CyanogenMod, Artemis Rom, etc. So I'm familiar to customizations. To state that the iWatch is only for older family members is IMPO at least shortsighted. It's by far the best smartwatch available at this very moment (except for battery life). My sole purpose is to bring the Android and Apple world somewhat closer together instead of the current "War of the worlds". Both make beautiful devices with it'own pros and cons. Kind regards kuzibri

kuzibri said:
@Mohamedkam000 said: I don't think you ever tried custom ROMs on Android phones. CyanogenMod? What about MIUI custom ROMs of 2014? How about the famous LineageOS?" Yes in my Android time I have used a lot of custom ROM's, like f.i. CyanogenMod, Artemis Rom, etc. So I'm familiar to customizations. To state that the iWatch is only for older family members is IMPO at least shortsighted. It's by far the best smartwatch available at this very moment (except for battery life). My sole purpose is to bring the Android and Apple world somewhat closer together instead of the current "War of the worlds". Both make beautiful devices with it'own pros and cons. Kind regards kuzibri
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Unless Apple changes its ecosystem of which it does not allow its devices to work well with other rival products, there's no way the two worlds could join.

Hi @Mohamedkam000 , regarding this "Unless Apple changes its ecosystem of which it does not allow its devices to work well with other rival products, there's no way the two worlds could join." If we're holding on to these points of view, indeed the two worlds will never join. It's a matter of giving and taking. F.i. you ask Apple to change their ecosystem in order to work well with each other. But, what do yo have in return for Apple? That's the main problem for this dead end. As I see it, Apple has a lot of knowledge about securing the privacy of their users, while Android suffers once and a while from mal/ransomware due to the opensource of the OS. See what I mean? Regards, kuzibri
BTW: this does not mean that I'm able on my own to solve that problem not are you, but if we cooperate in this line, we might be able to convince some leading persons of both sides to do something about this.
BTW2: Also see this regarding customizations regarding icons on an iPhone: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/customizations-on-the-apple-iphone.4342639/. It's only an example of many other apps.

kuzibri said:
Hi @Mohamedkam000 , regarding this "Unless Apple changes its ecosystem of which it does not allow its devices to work well with other rival products, there's no way the two worlds could join." If we're holding on to these points of view, indeed the two worlds will never join. It's a matter of giving and taking. F.i. you ask Apple to change their ecosystem in order to work well with each other. But, what do yo have in return for Apple? That's the main problem for this dead end. As I see it, Apple has a lot of knowledge about securing the privacy of their users, while Android suffers once and a while from mal/ransomware due to the opensource of the OS. See what I mean? Regards, kuzibri
BTW: this does not mean that I'm able on my own to solve that problem not are you, but if we cooperate in this line, we might be able to convince some leading persons of both sides to do something about this.
BTW2: Also see this regarding customizations regarding icons on an iPhone: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/customizations-on-the-apple-iphone.4342639/. It's only an example of many other apps.
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iPhone is safer than Android, but not more secure. For a device that receives so many patches for vulnerabilities, it doesn't seem to be better than Android.
I mean .. I've never heard of an essay alerting Android users to remove their Visa from the device. Android does fix the vulnerability. Apple does remove the reason the vulnerability is their in the first place.
Android is used by many, many people around the world, it is a very attractive target for hackers, of course it'll get some attacks. But, most of them does exploit the negligence of the phone owner. Like the latest report of malware-infected apps.
Example: Samsung has allowed iOS devices to connect to her Watch products for a long, maybe sometimes there's some missing features, but that's because it is created for Samsung devices.
On the other hand, Apple smartwatch does not allow any Android device to pair with it, it simply refuses to pair. If it was really a give-and-take, then Apple will take and not give.

Hi @Mohamedkam000 , regarding this: "On the other hand, Apple smartwatch does not allow any Android device to pair with it, it simply refuses to pair. If it was really a give-and-take, then Apple will take and not give.", see this video:
. It's not flawless, but it's possible.
Pairing Android watches to an iPhone is also not very easy and has it's disadvantages: https://www.lifewire.com/pairing-android-wearables-with-the-iphone-3875746. Regards kuzibri

kuzibri said:
Hi @Mohamedkam000 , regarding this: "On the other hand, Apple smartwatch does not allow any Android device to pair with it, it simply refuses to pair. If it was really a give-and-take, then Apple will take and not give.", see this video:
. It's not flawless, but it's possible.
Pairing Android watches to an iPhone is also not very easy and has it's disadvantages: https://www.lifewire.com/pairing-android-wearables-with-the-iphone-3875746. Regards kuzibri
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I thought we were talking about what is official, and what can be done without using back-door. Hacks happen due to an existing restriction, iPhone does not need to hack anything to connect to Samsung Watch, it is allowed to. Sometimes with limited features, and you know why.
I know there is Jailbreak on iPhone, too. But have you thought about the word itself? Jail? Break? iPhone is a Jail? Like .. I've never seen a company that makes choices on behalf of their customers like Apple do. It'll probably take them years to, for example, add another user-prefered customisation features.

Mohamedkam000 said:
I thought we were talking about what is official, and what can be done without using back-door. Hacks happen due to an existing restriction, iPhone does not need to hack anything to connect to Samsung Watch, it is allowed to. Sometimes with limited features, and you know why.
I know there is Jailbreak on iPhone, too. But have you thought about the word itself? Jail? Break? iPhone is a Jail? Like .. I've never seen a company that makes choices on behalf of their customers like Apple do. It'll probably take them years to, for example, add another user-prefered customisation features.
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I just replied to your remark that Apple does not allow to pair with Android Smartwatches at all, no more or less. The only Smartwatch I know that supports both Android and, in a bit minor fashion, Apple's iOS, are the Fitbit devices due to their own Fitbit OS. Maybe in the near future Google Smartwatches are able of paring to Apple due to the fact that Google bought Fitbit.

Depending on what factors more heavily on your value scale, you can decide whether the iPhone is expensive or not. The iPhone is straightforward, really simple to operate, and extremely powerful in many ways. Apple was successful in gaining from this combo.
There are undoubtedly many advantages and disadvantages, but if you were to get an Apple phone, you should be aware that the business only produces one line of phones, which are its flagship models.
The pricing of flagship devices is well known; the differences are in the features that each OS provides. Apple items don't appeal to me personally. Much is understated. But I had spent a lot of money to buy it.