Related
Take it with a grain of salt. But it sounds mildly legit.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045
edit: actually i call b.s.
whiteguypl said:
edit: actually i call b.s.
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Why? I have no firm opinion one way or the other, but just saying "bull****" really doesn't mean much unless you're playing the card game.
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Open source doesn't mean free.
I'm inclined to believe it. It makes more sense than trying to say they have been testing it for months. I've had my captivate for 6 months, almost 5 of them running FroYo thanks to the awesome devs here. Has the froyo always been stable and fast? No. But the devs don't work for Samsung with all the resouces, they are doing it in their spare time. I would bet Samsung had a fairly stable, almost complete version of FroYo ready before the phone released.
I am really getting tempted by the Atrix, apart from the awesome hardware and webtop app, Motorola devices get updates. But, they sound harder to flash custom ROMs, so its a give and take. Based on what I saw on the CES coverage, going with only official software may not be so bad.
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Even if thus is true, both AT&T and Samsung have all ready made too many mistakes. Both will lose some business. Yes it won't be enough to hurt either but maybe all the pestering will make them rethink their business models. Probably not. My last Samschmuck phone on AT&T for sure.
Sent from a phone somewhere in the universe
ianwood said:
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
This is the same point I tried to make on the thread. While Samsung may have been the ones to state that Froyo would come to Galaxy S, it may be that the carrier(s) decided to balk on the 2.2 update due to extra cost as probably stipulated by whatever contract they negotiated with Samsung.
If Froyo is already on Canadian carriers' devices (officially) why not U.S. carriers. Something reeks here.
While Samsung should have kept their mouths shut about the update, I'm sure a part is being played by the American carriers here.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are mixing up open source with free software. Ask Richard Stallman the difference
Also, I would imagine that they would not be paying Samsung for the software itself but more so the software development to tailor it to the carriers needs.
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
A.VOID said:
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
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Click to collapse
AT&T has nothing to do with iPhone updates. Matter of fact, AT&T has nothing to do with iPhones at all, except sell them. All iPhone updates are done through iTunes and all iPhone support is handled by Apple. This is not a good comparison.
Even comparing WinMo doesn't really work. I had a Wizard on AT&T, and there was exactly one firmware update, even though there were other versions that were available later. Plus, Windows is not free and not based on open source code. So, carriers would expect to pay for updates with closed source operating systems.
Xaviorin said:
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released.
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Click to collapse
If that were true, then Apple and AT&T would be facing some serious litigation. This is similar to the deals that Intel made with computer manufacturers, forcing them to slow leak AMD sales in order to sell more Intel chips. Intel paid quite a hefty fine and suffered a serious PR black eye. That type of practice stifles competition and is very, very illegal. So, I doubt that Apple and AT&T would even consider doing that.
Xaviorin said:
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Conspiracy theory much? Like someone said, your theories border on anti-competitive in practice. AT&T is also not so obsessed with the iPhone given how much they've diversified their smartphone portfolio in the past 9 months (+2 WebOS devices, +2 BlackBerrys, +3 Windows Phones, +5 Android devices).
I'm usually skeptical about these things, but this is about the only rumor that makes sense.
For those comparing it to the iphone, its like comparing oranges to apples. Apple pretty much takes care of everything on their side.At&t just peddles their product. Apple has a 400 person call center just for the iphone, next door to where I work.
Apple makes the hardware and creates the OS.
Samsung just makes hardware which is a good thing considering how bad their software engineers are at coding.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I'm more in the conspiracy theory side
Don't trust everything you read.
Thing about it deeply, what is more likely:
A Sammy employee risked his job, created an account just to create this post, and tell us the truth about the updates and how bad his employer is? seriously? What did he gain by doing this post? peace of mind? can he go to sleep now that he has revealed the truth of the US-only updates? Does really the Samsung employees care this much for only the US based users? This smells, and bad.
Now lets look at the conspiracy side. An AT&T employee notices our frustration against them. They see that seem to be more frustrated people are the non tech-savvy ones; that we got to admit they are more than us and represent a big number for them. On the other hand I bet they receive a gazillion calls from you guys on these subject.
Wouldn't be more likely than AT&T representative created that post to wash their hands and pass the blame to sammy? Isn't them who released a restricted phone and made a deal with Samsung saying that they will be in charge of this phone's updates? Samsungs cost in releasing an update of a phone that is almost equal to 6 other phones they released is null; whereas AT&T cost in updating their crap is high. Don't be blind. Carriers are the new tyrants. They will do anything in their power to get more money. If you could see what they are able to do in countries like mine you wont even doubt this. In my country of such a deal is made you can forget that you will ever get updates. There even is a carrier that, after 4 months passed that you have purchased a motorola's android based phone, charges you 10 uss monthly for MOTO BLUR, and this was written in the small print of the contract... seriously... I've seen carriers cancel their users contracts, saying they requested that, to bill them their contract-cancelation fee...
I could go on with this for pages... I've witnessed carriers lying, deceiving, and even more right in the people's face. If you want to check this, and know some spanish or use translators, just google "Claro hijos de puta" (sons of a...) or "claro estafa" (scam); both searches give more than 3 million results, and you wont imagine what you might find inside those pages...
This whole thing smells badly. And if I had to bet, I would say that post was made by a carrier to buy them time, or even to start making up an excuse so they wont ever release an update... after all, they would be the only ones that would benefit from such events...
I'm through waiting
This story was the final straw for me, whether it's true or not. I am tired of the drama and am no longer waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to deliver what AT&T told me would happen when I bought the phone. If AT&T store staff said something incorrect it was corporate's fault for not guiding their staff correctly. I was told shortly Froyo was coming, but it never came. Samsung said on Twitter/Facebook we all would have Froyo last year. There is no excuse for what they have done, none. I've waded through the myriad of 3rd party ROMs and was leery of the leaked Froyo ones due to everyone seemed to have an issue here or there. The 9000 ROMs sounded exciting but came with issues I didn't want. I just want a working GPS and a stable phone, running Froyo, what I thought I was getting last summer.
Now that Rogers released a North American ROM and the talented coders have seized upon it, we seem to be approaching a new level of stability with Froyo. After reading up on the various Rogers ROM based images I installed Cognition (donation coming later tonight) and after 30 minutes of playing around, I am home with Froyo now. I am beyond tired of waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to do the honorable thing for they are not honorable companies. I doubt another Samsung will grace my pocket and yet maybe it will be the 3rd party coders that will ultimately deliver what I have waited patiently for, for months. Wouldn't it be a wonderful environment if Samsung would just release the source to everything and let those out here, those infinitely more talented than Samsung staff, have access to the code they need to work pure magic.
Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
polarbee said:
Open source doesn't mean free.
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Click to collapse
Open source comes under GPL license. This isn't the one that is of cost, but the efforts involved in packing for a device, its extensive testing is what is costly.
In the most simplest of terms, the following people would be involved:
Business Team x 3 people
Development Team x 6 people
Testing/QA Team x 10 people
To take care of these people:
Project Manager x 1 person
Team Leads x 3 people (1 for each team)
Taking this to 23 people, to say the least.
On an average, if we pay each person say $ 50k for 6 months effort, it would be $ 50,000 x 23 = $ 1,150,000 i.e., $ 1.15 millions for 6 months.
Now see, this is only the minimal scale. For a phone so wide spread, I would assume a team of atleast 50 where managers charge more than 100-200k a year.
Now u see why Samsung doesn't wish to put this kind of money into a phone already sold, and is looking into marketing newer phones.
I think its all hoopla.
This "leak" of sensitive information on one of many android forums is only going to reach the eyes of a hand full of readers.
We (the brave souls wanting new updates for our gadgets and willing to hack them to get it) are very few in numbers compared to the vast amounts of consumers who own this phone, and usually don't give a hoot about a new update/upgrade for their phones ROM, IF they even know what the heck it is. They only care that their calls and texts go through, and they can browse the web on their lunch break.
The ONLY issue that most would care about is the GPS issues we have had. And I bet that AT&T, and Samsung have both received tens of thousands of customer complaints regarding Mr. Joe Average not being able to find his way on his family vacation. Again, we are but a small number compared to that. I would think that alone would motivate something to happen, at least an OTA update to fix the GPS issues. Nope.
So other than an intellectual debate on "why haves", and "why have nots" on a forum like this, there is nothing else this message could possibly accomplish.
The above thread, and this one will slowly slide down the thread list and be forgotten and nothing else will change.
The Bottom Line
Rumors aside, if it doesn't sell more phones, minutes or data plans and it can be avoided without seriously upsetting customers, they won't bother. Outside of our merry band of flash-a-holics, what percent of Captivate owners even know what Froyo is or care?
Also, judging by the JH7 OTA debacle, Samsung's OTA upgrade capability is decidedly unreliable. I'd bet that caused a mountain of returns. AT&T HATES returns!!! Costs them a fortune. The cost of paying Samsung for a Froyo upgrade is a drop in the bucket by comparison. So a bad OTA system is worse than none at all. If AT&T can get away with avoiding it, they will.
I think our best hope is to make A LOT of noise! Complain to Samsung, AT&T and Google. Do it publicly on FB, Twitter, etc. Do it often. A small vocal group of XDA readers can probably stir up a decent amount of attention at AT&T if they coordinated their efforts.
Thought i would share this with the rest of the XDA community who got scammed by Samsung.
A user revolt is starting among the tech blogs and on Twitter about Samsung's absolutely shameful lack of communication on updating its U.S. Galaxy S phones (including the Captivate, Epic, Fascinate, Mesmerize and Vibrant) to Android 2.2.
This is the first article i found posted 1-14.
Samsung Must Come Clean on Android Updates.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375769,00.asp
Here is the second article i found posted on 1-17.
Samsung Forcing US Carriers to Pay for Android Froyo on Galaxy S?
http://www.phonenews.com/samsung-forcing-us-carriers-to-pay-for-android-froyo-on-galaxy-s-15151/#more-15151
Here is the third article i found posted on 1-18.
Samsung Galaxy S Froyo Coming in March?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375940,00.asp?kc=PCRSS03069TX1K0001121&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ziffdavis%2Fpcmag%2Fbreakingnews+%28PCMag.com+Breaking+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
Here is yet another article.
Are Samsung Galaxy S Froyo Updates Being Held Back Because Of Cost?
http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/01/16/are-samsung-galaxy-s-froyo-updates-being-held-back-because-of-cost/
I don't know but there is only one way for them to please everyone and get users back on their side.....
Upgrade straight to Gingerbread. That would make all Galaxy S Users happy and probably keep a large % of them customers on their next phone.
Lets be honest, there were certainly issues when Samsung released their version of Froyo to select providers up here in canada. Rogers decided to wait it out and have them work out some bugs that were crippling other galaxy s phones. As you know FROYO is now available on Rogers and Canada being a smaller market, I believe it's being used as as testing ground for the firmware before it's released en mass to the much larger AT&T community. I've been using FROYO since it was launched on the Rogers network and haven't encountered any problems as of yet. I'm also not seeing an onslaught of complaining about phones being bricked or melted due to the release, so it would seem the AT&T update should be along rather soon. But what do i know?
http://pocketnow.com/android/samsung-not-charging-carriers-for-galaxy-s-froyo-updates
I certainly hope so and not because i would use the stock firmware but because it would provide a much easier base to dev on than what the captivate devs have to deal with at the current moment.
Reminds me of the **** Apple and Microsoft have done with updates in the past, only in reverse. "Let's update all the devices, but make the new software so robust that the old hardware can't run it!" Only Samsung's case is quite different. Our phones are very capable of new updates.
They've got us by the balls and I'm just about fed up because we're never going to see an update. It just doesn't make sense for them from an economic standpoint and AT&T doesn't want to shell out the money. If I were in business to make and keep as many billions of dollars as possible, I'd probably behave in a similar manner.
Lancez said:
http://pocketnow.com/android/samsung-not-charging-carriers-for-galaxy-s-froyo-updates
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Click to collapse
That's so arbitrary and conceited. Well, all of this is actually. But Samsung releasing that little utterance just to give us a glimmer of hope is just more hay in the barn and can't possibly be taken seriously. They've been saying the same **** since day 1. Anyone remember what happened with the boy who cried wolf?
upNsmokeAllDay said:
Here is the third article i found posted on 1-18.
Samsung Galaxy S Froyo Coming in March?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375940,00.asp?kc=PCRSS03069TX1K0001121&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ziffdavis%2Fpcmag%2Fbreakingnews+%28PCMag.com+Breaking+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
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Click to collapse
This would make me the winner of the office pool. Check my signature, been saying it since November.
People think that by complaining loud enough they will get what they want. But honestly the people who are begging for froyo are a small subset of the total handset owners. People who are on xda are the die hard tech people who always want the latest and greatest.
It will happen when it happens
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
We may be a small subset, but we are the ones our friends and family come to for recommendations. All of a sudden, the impact is no longer small.
I have no idea if the rumors are true, I know Phandroid will help spread the rumors but the rumors make sense.
Samsung sold you a device if it does not work they will fix it, but yes Android 2.1 is a working OS and Android 2.2 is an upgrade. They like most manufactures add bloatware, it does take engineering time to take stock Froyo add the bloat and all the carrier customizations, why should Samsung bother? Makes economic sense for them just to sell a next generation Galaxy S .
I for one love the stock Froyo running on my Rogers Captivate but I will not hold my breath waiting for Samsung to deliver 2.3 or 2.4
I agree at the end of the day 95% of the people will never visit XDA, or run Kies.
The tech geeks do not speak for the majority, this is why there were not line ups for the Nexus One.
Captain Geezer said:
I've been using FROYO since it was launched on the Rogers network and haven't encountered any problems as of yet.
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Click to collapse
It's been near perfect for me as well. The only complaints I have are:
1. The proximity sensor is screwed up. During a call, if the phone's screen is facing up the screen will turn back on. This means any time you hold the phone between your head and shoulder, your face starts mashing buttons. It's annoying as hell.
2. The contacts application never exits. It'll remain active in memory unless you end it. If you end it, your desktop disappears for several seconds before returning.
Gingerbread or bust.
Never again.
Sent from my Captivate.
AstroDigital said:
Samsung sold you a device if it does not work they will fix it, but yes Android 2.1 is a working OS and Android 2.2 is an upgrade. They like most manufactures add bloatware, it does take engineering time to take stock Froyo add the bloat and all the carrier customizations, why should Samsung bother? Makes economic sense for them just to sell a next generation Galaxy S.
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Click to collapse
We are not a bunch of whiners unhappy because we don't have the latest update and demanding something we have no right to. We are a group of consumers unhappy that we have been lied to and mislead. Samsung promised this update almost at the same time the phones were released. They promised a time frame in which it would be delivered. They have not followed through on their promises. They are selling accessories for these phones that have features that will only work with the promised updates. That right there is fraud. They have released this update everywhere but in the US, which says to me that it is not a technical consideration that is holding it up. Regardless of what may or may not make sense economically to Samsung, a company that does not keep its promises deserves to have that fact spread to consumers everywhere. Let's see how many next gen Galaxy phones Samsung sells after this debacle.
I've saved them the trouble and gone ahead and switched to T-mobile and a brand new G2 (no nexus s, because I will never buy another samsung device ever again, be it tv, blu-ray player, phone, microwave, toaster, blender, pocket knife, zipper, or plastic guitar pick).
As far as the $200 early term fee? Well, I've paid it, and I will be making a trip to the county courthouse on Friday to file against AT&T in small claims court for knowingly selling a malfunctioning device and breech of contract. Should they actually decide to show up instead of calling me to settle like I expect they will, I will be citing Cuomo v. Dell as a point of reference.
After 2 non-functioning replacements, I'm done with samsung, and to be honest, it really doesn't bother me to make AT&T pay for Samsung's mistake, because AT&T sold me the phone in the first place, and could have easily given me an Iphone as a replacement when I asked them to. Maybe next time they'll think twice about using a manufacturer with a history of repeating this exact same ****.
No class action because, well, let's face it, I don't have the money or the time to pursue a class action, and as a consumer, I know that I won't be putting up with their **** ever again. I just want the contract they conned me into gone, and the $400 for the phone and the ETF back. I would suggest that if any of you are unhappy with the phone that you don't sit around and just put up with it. You need to go get another phone with another carrier, cancel your contract, and file in small claims against AT&T. When word starts spreading of this money will talk and the carriers will listen. Then samsung won't be able to sell their devices to carriers.
Thanks for making that decision easy, Samsung and AT&T.
AstroDigital said:
Samsung sold you a device if it does not work they will fix it
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Click to collapse
From experience (2 returns are failures, 1 was DOA) that simply isn't true. Samsung is making users play russian roulette with refurbished phones.
Yup. This whole story just makes me all the more satisfied with my decision to go with the EVO over the EPIC on Sprint. We, EVO owners, were among the very first phones to be updated to FroYo. I've been rockin 2.2 for months now!
Go HTC and go Sprint!
P.S. I have other reasons why I would never by a Samsung phone. For some strange reason, there are way too many apps and mods that are 'not compatible with Galaxy S phones'.
Sent from my EVO rockin' MikFroYo!
leetpriest said:
Should they actually decide to show up instead of calling me to settle like I expect they will, I will be citing Cuomo v. Dell as a point of reference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cuomo v. Dell was about defrauding customers out of money by falsely advertising a 0% interest rate. I think you are going to have trouble convincing a judge that AT&T committed fraud because you would have to prove that they sold you your phone knowing that it had hardware problems that could not be fixed. Since there are thousands of people using Captivates without shutdown issues or other hardware related problems, fraud is a huge stretch, especially when the burden of proof is on you. If you seriously cite Cuomo v. Dell, AT&T may defend against it just to prevent any example from being set.
nkrick said:
Cuomo v. Dell was about defrauding customers out of money by falsely advertising a 0% interest rate. I think you are going to have trouble convincing a judge that AT&T committed fraud because you would have to prove that they sold you your phone knowing that it had hardware problems that could not be fixed. Since there are thousands of people using Captivates without shutdown issues or other hardware related problems, fraud is a huge stretch, especially when the burden of proof is on you. If you seriously cite Cuomo v. Dell, AT&T may defend against it just to prevent any example from being set.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So there isn't a press release dated Dec 20 out from Samsung instructing AT&T to "Sell through existing inventory" of faulty captivates? Citing that during a small claims hearing may not do much for me, but anyone that purchased a captivate after that press release now has a very real case against samsung and AT&T.
Alas, that's neither here nor there. I couldn't cite that case in the FILING process, or the SERVING process, only during the hearing, which precedes a settlement. You're telling me AT&T might be willing to pay a local attorney thousands, or pay thousands to fly a corp attorney down here to fight over $400?
I don't see it happening. But hey, I could be wrong. They could always attempt to countersue and not win. I didn't ask for your legal advice. I merely suggested that it may be worth everyone's time to send a message to the carriers that Samsung devices shouldn't be sold, that's all. It's not like it's any skin off your back if I win or lose a SMALL CLAIMS case, right?
leetpriest said:
So there isn't a press release dated Dec 20 out from Samsung instructing AT&T to "Sell through existing inventory" of faulty captivates? Citing that during a small claims hearing may not do much for me, but anyone that purchased a captivate after that press release now has a very real case against samsung and AT&T.
Alas, that's neither here nor there. I couldn't cite that case in the FILING process, or the SERVING process, only during the hearing, which precedes a settlement. You're telling me AT&T might be willing to pay a local attorney thousands, or pay thousands to fly a corp attorney down here to fight over $400?
I don't see it happening. But hey, I could be wrong. They could always attempt to countersue and not win. I didn't ask for your legal advice. I merely suggested that it may be worth everyone's time to send a message to the carriers that Samsung devices shouldn't be sold, that's all. It's not like it's any skin off your back if I win or lose a SMALL CLAIMS case, right?
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Click to collapse
I applaud your efforts, and i would do the same thing. Small claims court should be an easy victory and here is why:
1. It probably will never get that far, as the cost of the lawyer is in excess of the $ amount - assuming you are only going after the early term fee - I don't think you have a case for anything else
2. There are laws on the books about "merchantability" or "fitness of purpose". I don't AT&T or Samsung engaged in outright, but the simple fact that the phone had defects is enough - it is not dissimilar to invoking the lemon laws for cars.
Cars have 0 day return guarantee, so lemon laws were necessary. As a consumer, you went through the proper process and let them replace your device 2 times yet defects persisted. By then your 30 day return was over.
Document your experience and you should be OK if it goes to court.
I am not a lawyer but i have filed in small claims court in the past and had very good success getting results.
After today's expected launch went without an event, I contacted Verizon.
Here is the link to the about page for VP and Chief Marketing Officer, Marni Walden.
http://bit.ly/iAKpSp
I sent her the following letter (click the link at the bottom of her page)
Ms. Walden,
I am contacting you as a very disgusted customer. Since last fall, I have been waiting for Verizon to release a Windows Phone 7 device. I learned in the fall that this device would not be available on the CDMA networks, and as a software developer, I understand how Microsoft had not yet implemented support for it. However, Verizon has been stringing its customers along for about five months now with the implied promise of a Windows Phone 7 device, yet has not delivered.
In December, VZW advertized to Microsoft employees the Trophy, and it promised an "Early 2011" delivery. That offer had an expiration date of 12/31/2010, although that delivery has been pushed back to March, April, and May, and the delivery time range has been removed from the flier.
On March 23 the CDMA Sprint HTC Arrive was released. CDMA support was finally here. But Verizon dragged its feet. An April launch was expected, because despite the tight lips at Verizon, pictures were leaked of a Verizon branded Trophy, as well as an April expiration date on the Microsoft employee offer. That came and went. Now two Thursdays in May have come and gone without the device that many of us are waiting for.
You are not doing anything but making customers angry by dragging your feet, not releasing the device, and not giving us a release date. You are holding on to a phone that was available in Europe last October, albeit without CDMA support. Which means if you wait much longer you will be releasing a year-old phone. Do you think it is all right to treat your customers like this? Are you that ticked off at Microsoft over the failure of the Kin that you are willing to drag your customers who want the Windows Phone through the mud like this?
It is high time for whomever at Verizon is throwing the temper tantrum about the Kin to get over it, and give us the phone we want. I don't want one of the 47 different Android phones you now carry. I don't want the iPhone. I and many well-informed consumers like me, want a Windows Phone 7 device. Please quit holding us hostage.
Sincerely,
Richard Hopkins
Verizon frustrating
I've talked to many salespeople about what signs there are of the Trophy being released. The general consensus is that the rumor start a month before the device is available and training is done a week before. None of these things have happened for the Windows Phone 7 device. There are two blank spots at Costco for two new devices.........maybe.....?
A dummy device was spotted at Best Buy this week. http://bit.ly/iig3Sr
XBox Live had a Verizon Trophy theme for download yesterday (since pulled) http://bit.ly/mTOJbU
Verizon employee training started two weeks ago. http://bit.ly/itTXms
The phone is currently on Bestbuy.com, and can be placed in shopping cart, but order cannot yet be completed. http://bit.ly/mbk04A
Press shots have been leaked http://bit.ly/m3wCia
Verizon is excited to offer Win Phone 7 http://cnet.co/erI5Wp
I'm not sure how much louder the rumors could get, to be honest.
Encouragement
Just talked to another Verizon guy and he said training was last week. Asked the Costco people and they said they "hoped" that one of the spaces was for the Trophy.
You're going to learn very little if anything at all by canvasing the VZW employees and retailers. They can (and often do) lose their jobs for letting information out. And since they often do leak, they are often kept more in the dark than those of us who know how to use Twitter.
I just had a nice chat with Lachelle at Verizon Wireless. I voiced all of the concerns I've had, blah blah blah.
Among the things she said:
1. We can't give out release dates for our phones because it affects our competitiveness. My response: You announced on Feb 11 that you were going to carry iPhone, release in a month. You gave a month notice, and you launched on time. How competitive are you on this platform if you're the only major carrier in the world (with supported language) that doesn't have a phone on the platform? You have like 47 different Android models, but not everyone wants Android.
2. I will pass your comments on to our marketing department so they can look into whether we should carry this phone. My response: You WILL be carrying this device. You have made a special offer to Microsoft employees, and have modified that offer at least 3 times that I can think of off the top of my head. A dummy device has been spotted in a Best Buy store, and I've seen pictures of it online (I forgot to tell her it is listed on bestbuy.com). Your store employees have been trained on it. Verizon branded devices have been seen in the wild (I forgot to tell her about the one on craigslist). You're on the edge of launching, and granted, all I've got are rumors, but the photographic evidence to back those rumors is overwhelming. You are frustrating your customers by keeping this so tightly under wraps. The whole world, except for Verizon employees it seems, knows that there is a device coming, and the lack of information is frustrating your customers. I stayed with Verizon, and gave you until the 12th, because the most powerful evidence of a launch seemed to point at the 12th, but I NEED the phone now, so today I became an ATT customer, and I'm talking to you on an ATT phone.
Anyway, she gave me the typical "I'm going to pass this up to marketing" blah blah blah and "thank you for your feedback because it helps us to keep our customers happy blah blah blah." She also said that the more they hear from customers, the more attention they can give this issue. WRITE THOSE LETTERS!
We'll see what happens. I'm kind of hoping, since there is a droid phone launching tomorrow, that it may be tomorrow, however that is just speculation on my part and I have no evidence to back it up whatsoever.
As we close in on the 15th, I think two things will happen:
A) No Mango. The rumor-mill did it again.
B) Microsoft will STILL not have learned their lesson about replying to rumors.
They have to know what is being said on every single blog on earth. Type Mango into Google and it pulls up 500 news stories that say "durr will Sept 15 be release date??". Yet the closest thing I can find is a reply to a comment on the dev team blog. What happened to that guy who was hired after the NoDo fiasco to liaise with consumers?
Rule 1 in their position should be addressing rumors. No matter how small. Set up a "wp facts" page. Address the 15th rumor or whatever is next. By not, they're shooting themselves in the foot. I'm a cold-hearted cynic, and even I'm half convinced that it may actually begin being launched tomorrow.
A. I think the chance is rather high, but one never knows until that day gets here, right? That's what makes those rumors so power - the suspense of it. If it doesn't come people will just blame the carriers or OEMs. I think Microsoft was smart to say that their job was done, but they threw the OEMs and carriers under the bus in the process. Microsoft still has to approve the OTA even after the OEMs and Carriers do their thing, and there really isn't much to do since you they aren't allowed to bake in a ton of apps like on Android, WinMo/Symbian, and BB.
B. I think Microsoft thinks it helps them because it gets headlines, but when those days come and go the disappointment more than counters whatever was gained leading up to those days.
They did set up a webpage. Mango is not on it yet.
Just to answer your question. The guy they hired to be customer facing said in a blog post about a month and a half ago that he was going to maintain radio silence and "the next blog post will be the announcement that it is being released." A lot of good that's doing him.
While I wish they could have a concrete release date, I do wish they would at least deny dates. Sure it's our own fault for investing to heavily into unsubstantiated rumors, but they really could kill all of the speculation with one quick blog post.
Although the guys who said the release was this week have been spot on with their previous predictions, I may have to bet against this one.
Sent from my LG-C900 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
A: Microsoft only have an estimate date of when Mango will be ready for roll out.
B: Microsoft will only roll out the update after it test the update infrastructure.
Lol @ test the update infrastructure.
No.
Also, "this fall" is not an estimated date. Fall is a season, not a month, not a week, and certainly not a date. It's a 3 month season and if they wish to pass that off as an estimated date, I guess it means they genuinely think their customers are idiots. An estimated date would be something along the lines of "the second week of September." "This fall..." That tells me nothing other than "we're giving ourselves a 3 month span so that if they ahve to wait until the dawn of Winter, we won't look like idiots."
But anyways, we've seen this tactic employed recently. Remember the Samsung US Galaxy S FroYo updates and #NeverAgain? Yea, that's basically what happened. I'm suprised WP7 users aren't furious they had to wait a whole year for an update, but this seems like a special kind of user base. Microsoft must be ecstatic they're given so much rope to play with (then again, they didn't sell 10M phones like Samsung, probably 3-4M in the US alone)...
Main issue is getting the update through the OEMs and carriers. Most OEMs already have the update ready, and they're even making new stock Mango phones.
Carriers are another deal, but I'm suprised it takes carriers so long with WP7 updates when they have a lot less stuff to test due to their inability to bake as much bloatware into the devices' ROMs and stuff like that.
Maybe the carriers are waiting for their partners (TeleNav, MobiTV, Slacker, Netflix, etc.) to get their apps Mango-ready before they approve it? Cause we all know they won't Okay the update if their subscription-based Value-Adds don't work correctly on it...
sure haven't said:
B) Microsoft will STILL not have learned their lesson about replying to rumors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft has a policy concerning rumors. That is they do not comment and that is the best policy.
If this rumor is true, MS might make an announcement in the next few days and then the download will be available. If that's the case, then there was no need to comment on the rumor and say "Yes Mango is coming this week, but we want it to be available shortly after we announced it so we're not announcing it today."
If the rumor is false, people might be pissed at MS but they have no reason to be so. We do not know who started the rumor and all we ever heard from MS was "fall".
Now if MS were to dismiss every incorrect rumor as soon as they can (to not get up expectations), a missing comment on a rumor would kind of mark it as true.
They only comment on rumors when the rumor really might leave many people disappointed, like the Xbox + blu ray thing a couple of years ago.
Xbox 360s have sold way better than Windows Phones and this Mango rumor might be a big deal for us enthusiasts, but apart from us that's that.
BTW, I saw someone yesterday or the day before casually toss out the 2 PM PST time for a Mango release. That rumor's now dead.
I have a feeling it will be released on the 20th
9/15 isn't mango day, that was another rumor, folks. We've been saying "fall"... it's not fall yet! http://t.co/ZcvBO5ys
From joebelfiore on twitter.
I5 launching around then. Theyre dumb.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
sure haven't said:
As we close in on the 15th, I think two things will happen:
A) No Mango. The rumor-mill did it again.
B) Microsoft will STILL not have learned their lesson about replying to rumors.
They have to know what is being said on every single blog on earth. Type Mango into Google and it pulls up 500 news stories that say "durr will Sept 15 be release date??". Yet the closest thing I can find is a reply to a comment on the dev team blog. What happened to that guy who was hired after the NoDo fiasco to liaise with consumers?
Rule 1 in their position should be addressing rumors. No matter how small. Set up a "wp facts" page. Address the 15th rumor or whatever is next. By not, they're shooting themselves in the foot. I'm a cold-hearted cynic, and even I'm half convinced that it may actually begin being launched tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What lesson do they have to learn? They get free publicity, the only ones disappointed are the idiots that power the rumor mill.
fb401 said:
Just to answer your question. The guy they hired to be customer facing said in a blog post about a month and a half ago that he was going to maintain radio silence and "the next blog post will be the announcement that it is being released." A lot of good that's doing him.
While I wish they could have a concrete release date, I do wish they would at least deny dates. Sure it's our own fault for investing to heavily into unsubstantiated rumors, but they really could kill all of the speculation with one quick blog post.
Although the guys who said the release was this week have been spot on with their previous predictions, I may have to bet against this one.
Sent from my LG-C900 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
by the way, that's the same guy that kept radio silence while the blog was exploding with angry people during the nodo update failure.
The best thing for EVERYONE, devs, users, shops, etc would be to a predetermined release date, well in advance too. Failing that, as the date closes in, more and more accurate time windows. Failing that too, bad enough as it is, at least dispel rumors. Because it's not like people are EXCITED about the update. People are IMPATIENT. And rightly so, you're putting out features that have been on every smartphone for a long time !
let face with it or without mango WP7 is never going to win much of the market share, I expect theres a few who will have renewed their contact & jumped OS's before the mango hits the consumer ?
now i know this has been asked before but i would like to know in more detail. What exactly would be needed to get the G2x and other devices to work on the Newest versions of android (future builds beyond ICS and JB). do we need just an open source driver or do we need on open schematic of the hardware, or what?
I know its a longshot but i would like to start a petition for google to require that when a device is dead (no longer sold retail) that a company release whatever we need to use as development.
I dont claim to know everything so PLEASE if there is am LG rep or dev looking at this PLEASE correct me, but i dont feel it is going to hurt the company to just release the open source for the phone after its lifespan is up. I know that they are banking on people just buying a new phone (which i have no problem doing) but when you are on a 2 year contract you cant just go spend $300-$500 on a new phone because your phone wont get the newest updates. i know you can always sell and buy a new phone on trading sites like swappa and ebay, but i rather not go through that hassle. too many times have i bought a phone or other device that is 3 months old (paying attention to specs) and have it die a few months later and be outdated. My problem is our G2x's are more powerful than most phones out there and we are stuck because a company wants to be (for a lack of better words) greedy. I mean hell my G1 lasted till GB before even dev support dropped (each build ran very well at that).
Maybe this is just a far fetched request for google or even just each individual company. i honestly dont think that the Rooting/Dev community is going to even put a dent in sales for these companies if they just release drivers. Im willing to start this and hope everyone is willing to spend less than 5 minutes of there time to read and sign the petition and even share is on other android forums and social media sites. I left iOS for android because of the openness and freedom, and this isnt about having the newest features but having app support. Im sure if anyone boots up an android 1.6 device right now they probably cant even sign into there google accounts. I feel caged now with android just like when i was using an iPhone unless you buy a Nexus device.
Also one more thing. Does anyone know a good legit digital petition site?
Thank you to anyone that took the time to read this.
The G2X may be EOL but the Optimus 2X and other phones are still sold that have the same NVIDIA SOC. So, even if the policy you propose for releasing the source code for the drivers for the processor, etc., were to be a Google requirement, NVIDIA wouldn't have to do it for the G2X.
Well no I'm talking in general. This is more in the interest of future devices. Or even set it to at the release of the device. Who knows there may be a similar palicy soon, there has already been some buzz about unlocked bootloaders in the new galaxy phones.
But hey I'm flexible and open to ideas. My point being is we should be fighting for our investments. I mean we spend hundreds of dollars for these phones and then are told "hey we aren't going to support this anymore, but you are welcome to buy are newest phone that we are going to drop support for in 6 months"
Once again thanks for taking the time to read ^_^
Sent from my LG-P999
I think the phone should be supported for the maximum length of the cell phone service contract from the date the cell phone was purchased for/with that contract. That should also apply to the warranty. For example, if a person signs up for a 2 year contract and buys a subsidized or non-subsidized phone from that service provider, the phone is guaranteed to receive timely firmware, etc., updates and repair for those 2 years. If the phone is an Android phone, the phone would receive Android updates which were released by Google over those 2 years. This would guarantee that early adopters of a phone would receive updates for more than 2 years, they would receive 2 years of updates from the date of the sale of the last phone of that type, the G2X for example.