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Is there a true Open Source Android phone? (drivers)

The current situation with the Dream and missing drivers have made me think about the importance of open drivers also for embedded devices like phones. Anyone using the combo Ati card + a distro that upgrades Xorg or kernel more often than Debian stable (whics is most of them) have felt the urge to curse closed source drivers to the deepest levels of hell. Now the same **** hits the fans for G1 owners.
Even though tis post is not about Ati, I must say in their defense that they have released specs, which is great.
Qualomm however, has not released anything whatsoever when it comes to source or specs, as far as I can understand. I have been stalking enough development efforts on embedded devices to know that this is common practise from hardware vendors - and extremely annoying for any geek wanting to do some heavy development for them.
And now i finally reach the question, which has already been mentioned in the title: Is there any device, released or upcoming, that features a SoC with opensourced drivers and firmware for all components? If not (and guess it is so, unfortunately), is anyone better than the others?

Of the many phones/MIDs/ARM gadgets I evaluated before I got my Vogue, the only ones I saw that had even remotely open OpenGL drivers were based on TI's OMAP3 SoC or had a PowerVR SGX GPU. Unfortunately, none of the OMAP3/PowerVR devices I saw were cheap (OpenPandora, AI Touchbook, BeagleBoard, Nokia N900, etc.) enough for me. That, and I saw what happened with the TouchBook's OpenGL ES library, which apparently wasn't allowed to be distributed outside of TI's SDK - but I haven't been following that. I also saw that the Samsung S3C6410, used in the cheap made-in-China SmartQ5 and Q7 MIDs, has open enough specs for writing a driver, but no one has stepped up to write one yet. Aside from OpenGL, though, an OMAP3/4 based phone would be perfectly open... except there aren't many consumer OMAP3 phones I really wish reverse-engineering or converting the Qualcomm/ATI libhgl.so for "real" Linux wasn't next to impossible/illegal - if doing it was easy, you'd have an OpenGL ES library for Debian on the Dream by now. I would reverse engineer it if I had the resources, unfortunately I'm unsure how legal it would be to do that.
EDIT: as far as phones (as opposed to the non-phones I was talking about), the most open right now seems to be Qualcomm - not counting Marvell PXA or other feature-poor (opposite of feature-rich ) SoCs - as contradictory as that may seem. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm basing everything on OpenGL drivers, since as far as other hardware goes, I don't have much expertise. Also, I haven't looked hard enough to find any Freescale- or other ARM SoC-based phones, and I don't know of any Android phones (shipped with android, not ported by third-party developers) that DON'T use Qualcomm chips. For the moment, it seems you must pay a premium for openness.

Well, thank for an insightfull reply anyway.
The N900 is definitely on my watch-list, but yeah, it sure is a bit expensive. Then again, it IS cheaper than the N1, So it isn't that bad.
As for the legality, it really shouldn't be legal NOT to give out open drivers for hardware when you sell it to consumers. They should have a legal right to have it!
But seriously, these outdated qualcomm chips in most HTC phones is no competitor to Snapdragon or Tegra, so who do they think they are fooling when they keep the drivers closed for "competitive reasons". Thats pretty much what they all us as an excuse.
Sad to hear about the "free" Touchbook fate though. I had high hopes for it, but if that is the stance they're taking now, I'm glad i didn't buy it myself.
Soooomewheeereee over the rainbooooow, coooode iiiiiiiiis freeeeeee (likeinfreespeechnotfreebeer) Soooomewheeeeree over...
In paradise there is no binary blobs in any code running on any of my devices.

Acer has just released the "Acer Liquid kernel source code". http://www.acer.co.uk/acer/service....tx1g.c2att92=122&ctx1.att21k=1&CRC=2980211862 Liquid support under Document tab.
Hope that everything is there.

The GeeksPhone One is an open source Android device running on the MSM7225 processor, and worth checking out.
http://www.geeksphone.com/en/

The samsung moment uses the Samsung S3C6410 processor .... whitch is used in otehr windows mobile devices and i do belive samsung has a sdk advable but im not sure

I don´t know it exactly but shouldn´t be the OpenMoko a true opensource phone?

Isn't the Droid pretty decent? Doesn't Motorola even release the drivers for the hardware as open source here: https://opensource.motorola.com/sf/sfmain/do/home

The Moment has the same problem the SmartQ 5/7 have, unless Samsung released source code for the Android OpenGL drivers behind my back. That still wouldn't cover running Debian, sadly - I was hoping I could run Debian if I got one, but I know it won't be 3D-accelerated even if Debian does run. The Motorola Droid has pretty much the same SoC as the N900 and friends, hence the same PowerVR driver problems. IIRC, the SGX drivers are only partially open - I think most of the source code is available, but I remember hearing somewhere that there were redistribution problems. The infamous Intel GMA500 IGP (which was actually designed - and manufactured I think - by PowerVR) still suffers from poor-quality closed drivers, and Intel still hasn't done anything about it, pointing fingers at PowerVR for who knows what reason. I've come to a conclusion: hardware companies don't care about the consumer anymore

What's the status of this these days?
- how open are the n900 drivers?
The Nexus and i9000 both have a thing where the modem reads the CPU so that's as far as the reliant project goes.
Geeks phone is pretty cool but has binary blobs.
I remember reading about another project to make a phone like the Geeksphone but being prepared for compromise to achieve full openness. But I forget the name of the project. Anyone know what its called?
I'm really hoping there's a cheap Chinese phone out there that one can really own from driver level up now.

If you were a developer at Google.............

Hello everyone,
Just for the sake of fun. If you have been given the opportunity to decide the future of android, What would you do? Which feature do you want to see in android?
May be people @ Google are 'really' watching this thread. Who knows?
Shoot your opinions
PS: I would say, a multi user (logoff and on) feature so that one can change profiles in office and home. (Haven't seen this as native android feature)

Feature wise, I'd push for smoother graphics, put an end to the "iPhone is faster" trolls.

Smoother ...more exclusives to android.. game mostly ...as gamevil seem to stick every thing on iPhone first ..
Sent from my MT11i using xda premium

One of the things that holds back game developers is having to do extra work to support multiple GPUs (Tegra, OMAP, Adreno, etc). It would be nice if Android had something like DirectX on Windows where the GPU brand doesn't matter, instead the GPU is certified for a DirectX # level and can run all games up to that #.
There have been some good games out there that were Tegra only early on for example and when you see its incompatible with your graphically capable OMAP device its not good. Judging from the reviews left people don't like when this happens.

I really don't understand why android cannot run as smooth as iphone, i think it's really system problem rather than hardware's problem...

crazyricky said:
I really don't understand why android cannot run as smooth as iphone, i think it's really system problem rather than hardware's problem...
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Apple have a few phones they build inhouse, and create software and drivers for it, that they can constantly tune and improve.
Google on the other hand, have to support an unlimited amount of devices and drivers, so they don't get the same time to improve drivers. Not to mention you then get 3rd parties with their own skins and what not.
It's the price we pay for freedom

[Q] Why is iPhone still faster than any Android Quad-Core Phone?

Hi,
my friend and I are comparing which Phone is better.. The iOS Phones or the Android Phones.
In my opinion an iPhone is not a real Smartphone because you can't really do nothing with it..
There is just a damn Appdrawer without a damn Home screen.
Just Apps and some other notification stuff.
An Android Phone has almost everything that you need. You can even Update a Ps3 system with just an Android Phone.
You can build your own system and run your Rom with your taste.
But why the hell has the iPhone 5 still compared to HTC One X or Sony Xperia Z a better Benchmark result?
I mean the iPhone got a Dual core with just 1 Ghz per Core. But it beat a Quad-Core Phone.
For example I got a Sony Xperia S and how you know it has a 1,5Ghz Dual-Core hardware. And STILL the iPhone runs Asphalt 7 or Shadowgun: Deadzone better than the Xperia S
How that can be possible??

xShottaZx said:
Hi,
my friend and I are comparing which Phone is better.. The iOS Phones or the Android Phones.
In my opinion an iPhone is not a real Smartphone because you can't really do nothing with it..
There is just a damn Appdrawer without a damn Home screen.
Just Apps and some other notification stuff.
An Android Phone has almost everything that you need. You can even Update a Ps3 system with just an Android Phone.
You can build your own system and run your Rom with your taste.
But why the hell has the iPhone 5 still compared to HTC One X or Sony Xperia Z a better Benchmark result?
I mean the iPhone got a Dual core with just 1 Ghz per Core. But it beat a Quad-Core Phone.
For example I got a Sony Xperia S and how you know it has a 1,5Ghz Dual-Core hardware. And STILL the iPhone runs Asphalt 7 or Shadowgun: Deadzone better than the Xperia S
How that can be possible??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To answer the question in title.
Iphones would seem faster because its software is only written for one device.. the Iphone.
When you build the hardware and the software you able to really optimise it for that device.
This would be possible with Android but for a device manufacture would take far to much work at the lower levels of android itself, and they simply do not have the time or resources to do that (After all we do want updates within 6 months of google pushing them).
If you however get a Nexus device built for stock Android you will see what android can do

zacthespack said:
To answer the question in title.
Iphones would seem faster because its software is only written for one device.. the Iphone.
When you build the hardware and the software you able to really optimise it for that device.
This would be possible with Android but for a device manufacture would take far to much work at the lower levels of android itself, and they simply do not have the time or resources to do that (After all we do want updates within 6 months of google pushing them).
If you however get a Nexus device built for stock Android you will see what android can do
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes and Java android implementation has a really time spent garbage collector, IOS programs are written over Objective C with just in time memory management.
No garbage collector = faster app

The on-the-surface reasons are a fast and capable CPU and GPU, but mainly the fact that apps have a very limited ability to run in the background. There are more technical reasons, as mentioned above, but that's the gist of it.
iOS's efficiency and performance comes from its heavy software limitations.

Okay, so mainly it has to do with optimizing the hardware with the software right?

xShottaZx said:
Okay, so mainly it has to do with optimizing the hardware with the software right?
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Click to collapse
Yes, and like I said, heavily disallowing apps from running in the background.

I bet thats also the reason why macs are seen as such intuitive machines compared to pcs. Windows is made for any pc while mac os is strictly built for mac. :good:

Omega Supreme said:
I bet thats also the reason why macs are seen as such intuitive machines compared to pcs. Windows is made for any pc while mac os is strictly built for mac. :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Macs use the same parts as PC's. It's just that they say, "Alright, these are the parts we're going to use this year. We only need drivers and software compatible with these parts. Anything extra is up to the manufacturers." It's the same thing with Windows, but like you said, just a wider array of devices and parts.
Intuitiveness has nothing to do with hardware and interfacing software; it has everything to do with aesthetics and software design.

Okay thanks for your answers guys

for me, Iphone is only good for old people, who doesnt really care about their gadget, they only use it for show off, without knowing the "true" potential of their phone.
with android, we could squeeze the juice from the phone out untill its screaming, lol, and our device will worth every dime and penny we spent, like many of people only know that they have Intel i7 processor without knowing that their i7 processor can beat up so easily with Overclocked core 2 Quad processors.
just my 2 cents though

There's more to it than benchmarking though. I actually carry and use both devices. My DNA is a good bit faster than my iPhone with some processes. Other things the iPhone is faster with. But as stated above, the apple hardware and software is highly optimized, which is why iPhone users don't see force closes or random reboots except for the occasional rare extreme problem.
They both have their pros and cons, there's a lot of young people also that the iPhone fits better than android.
There's a lot of people in this world that think differently than me. I did not see the dialer or keyboard on my DNA until after it was unlocked and rooted and had a custom rom and kernel overclocked. I didn't realize until later that I didn't even open much on the interface until after I had installed the software I wanted. Lots of people wouldn't want to take an off contract 700 dollar device and blindly void the warranty, but that's all I bought mine for is the hardware and ability to build my rom and interface to fit my needs.
Sent from my DNA... S-Off like a baws

apple not only manufactures its own software, but also hardware, hence it has better control to customize their hardware according to the software or vice versa.

ob7125 said:
apple not only manufactures its own software, but also hardware, hence it has better control to customize their hardware according to the software or vice versa.
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Click to collapse
Apple doesn't manufacture anything. Most of their components come from Samsung and other manufacturers like Qualcomm. They work ONLY on the software.

i think you are wrong.
zacthespack said:
To answer the question in title.
Iphones would seem faster because its software is only written for one device.. the Iphone.
When you build the hardware and the software you able to really optimise it for that device.
This would be possible with Android but for a device manufacture would take far to much work at the lower levels of android itself, and they simply do not have the time or resources to do that (After all we do want updates within 6 months of google pushing them).
If you however get a Nexus device built for stock Android you will see what android can do
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i saw the nexus 5 benchmark fight with the iphone 5s, NEXUS 5 can't reach near iphone 5s , actually i don't understand how is this possible and i don't believe that optimization makes iphone to this much faster, when we are looking forward the case of samsung galaxy note 3 and iphone 5s just an optimization can't beat the 8 core and 3Gb ram with 1.3gh 2 core with 1gb ram, may be the precision is the key

[Q] Linux for Tegra /w shield

I know the current answer is not possible with current released source code (only support for tegra 2/3). And a 2nd answer is nothing official is announced regarding any shield source code release. However I want to throw this out there as a topic of discussion.
How likely do you guys feel Linux for tegra (straight Linux not android and possibly dual boot /w android) is going to find its way to the shield and what it could mean for the shield?
For those that don't quite see the point, look into the openpandora project. While desktop experience computing is a major advantage of having straight Linux in that form factor of a handheld, arguably the greatest advantage it also offers is direct access to the HAL (hardware abstraction layer; Frame buffer etc etc) it gives a significant boost in performance in emulators and games over android even with its use of the NDK. Removes even the most minor latency in games for the most purest of experiences.
Games / emulators can be written in straight c, c++, assembly, or a plethora of different programming languages without being wrapped in java or using the multiple abstraction layers android uses and you get the full potential of your hardware.
This isn't an android hate post by any means, but more of a promotion of Linux for tegra and what it could benefit if paired with shield.
So thoughts? chances of seeing it supported? Interest? Ideas? Potential additional uses?

johnsongrantr said:
I know the current answer is not possible with current released source code (only support for tegra 2/3). And a 2nd answer is nothing official is announced regarding any shield source code release. However I want to throw this out there as a topic of discussion.
How likely do you guys feel Linux for tegra (straight Linux not android and possibly dual boot /w android) is going to find its way to the shield and what it could mean for the shield?
For those that don't quite see the point, look into the openpandora project. While desktop experience computing is a major advantage of having straight Linux in that form factor of a handheld, arguably the greatest advantage it also offers is direct access to the HAL (hardware abstraction layer; Frame buffer etc etc) it gives a significant boost in performance in emulators and games over android even with its use of the NDK. Removes even the most minor latency in games for the most purest of experiences.
Games / emulators can be written in straight c, c++, assembly, or a plethora of different programming languages without being wrapped in java or using the multiple abstraction layers android uses and you get the full potential of your hardware.
This isn't an android hate post by any means, but more of a promotion of Linux for tegra and what it could benefit if paired with shield.
So thoughts? chances of seeing it supported? Interest? Ideas? Potential additional uses?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am unaware of a L4T build, and it likely would be lacking some significant features (like touchscreen support). That said, I also disagree with the statements about being faster due to direct access to the HAL. While it is true that L4T would give you direct access to the frame buffer, what it *doesn't* give you is any GPU support. The GPU turns into nothing but a pixel pusher. All rendering must be done in software on the processor. While this isn't a big deal for older emulators on platforms which don't support native 3D, games that do support the GPU for more than pixel pushing can run faster with less latency because the system isn't as busy rendering the graphics.

agrabren said:
I am unaware of a L4T build, and it likely would be lacking some significant features (like touchscreen support). That said, I also disagree with the statements about being faster due to direct access to the HAL. While it is true that L4T would give you direct access to the frame buffer, what it *doesn't* give you is any GPU support. The GPU turns into nothing but a pixel pusher. All rendering must be done in software on the processor. While this isn't a big deal for older emulators on platforms which don't support native 3D, games that do support the GPU for more than pixel pushing can run faster with less latency because the system isn't as busy rendering the graphics.
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If L4T is built for tegra 4 and not specifically for the shield, it would undoubtedly be missing quite a few device specific drivers. I'm sure it's a bit of work to port that stuff over from android source. My understanding it's not the brunt of the work such as the chipset and gpu, having full support would make things much easier I'm sure. Thanks for the info about it probably not being worked on though, it's a little disappointing, but at least I won't have my hopes on it being released in the near future. Hopefully L4T isn't a forgotten project, and one can only hope it eventually finds it's way to being officially supported on shield.
One thing that was suggested in not so many words was possibly opening up the 3d GPU driver source for tegra 4. I am speaking out of turn for sure and should probably sit patiently until something is publicly released, and base my comments off something solid rather than hearsay, but if true it would hopefully allow for the hardware acceleration rather than just a pixel pusher. I'm out of my lane in questioning it and giving a comparison, but for the openpandora they have at least some level of gpu hardware acceleration with their powervr GPU because Texas Instruments provided it. It may only be at the same level as your talking about and just taking some of the load off the CPU rather than processing complex graphics but the difference between the point in which they implemented hardware accelerated graphics and non-hardware accelerated was quite noticeable, at least on that platform. I know they don't have full GPU driver source on that platform either just compiled binaries unfortunately. I know they would have appreciated the same level of support that was suggested for tegra 4.
I wouldn't say only older emulators and 2d games would see a benefit from straight linux support. There is some newer emulators like PPSSPP that runs visually faster on linux than it does under android on the same hardware and same clock speed and kernel. Also highly optimized emulators like pcsx rearmed that runs significantly faster on linux than android (retroarch) That's just performance clock for clock on the same hardware. That also doesn't go into the audio and input lag (however insignificant) it is still detectable under android even if the program uses the NDK. Now I would accept that it's only because of the lack of the same background processes and services, but I imagine and have been told it's more than that. It is directly linked to android's use of it's HAL's
Thanks for your insight and detailed answer, it's much appreciated, hopefully it will continue, it's good to have someone who knows what they're talking about to talk to that won't just flame you or blow you off.

Raw linux on the shield would make for a damn sweet machine but most of your reasons for doing so can be done on a rooted android device anyway (with some trickery you can bypass dalvik - yes, dalvik, android is not actually java - entirely and run native code on the linux kernel, but its not easy).

Do you have any more information about that? I've seen chrooted Linux on android is that what you're talking about?
Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

resurrecting the 2nd oldest post in this catagory to show this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAvXLqPKxow
source here
https://github.com/linux-shield/kernel

Knew it would be possible, if only he had the drivers to wrap that up fully.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Knew it would be possible, if only he had the drivers to wrap that up fully.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far I just followed his instructions on the kernel, haven't setup a rootfs yet but if you want a copy of what I got so far you can follow below. Looks like it builds just fine.
http://forum.openhandhelds.net/index.php/topic,448.0.html

[Q] As a laptop owner, am i screwed? Or are there workarounds?

First of all, let me list my Laptop specs
CPU: 3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3630QM (2.40GHz 6MB Cache)
GPU:NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX660M 2GB with DirectX® 11
RAM: 8GB
I heard that the Nvidia shield officially doesn't support Laptop streaming, but has a good and reliable method for supporting streaming been released yet via third party app or something? If so, are there any good guides in order to do so(without screwing up any in the process?) I think i did hear that some laptops with some GPU(that i've never really heard of: Kepler I believe) can support it, but i'm not sure if my Laptop would fill the bill. I think I also heard something about optimus, but i don't even know what that is.

John6670 said:
First of all, let me list my Laptop specs
CPU: 3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3630QM (2.40GHz 6MB Cache)
GPU:NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX660M 2GB with DirectX® 11
RAM: 8GB
I heard that the Nvidia shield officially doesn't support Laptop streaming, but has a good and reliable method for supporting streaming been released yet via third party app or something? If so, are there any good guides in order to do so(without screwing up any in the process?) I think i did hear that some laptops with some GPU(that i've never really heard of: Kepler I believe) can support it, but i'm not sure if my Laptop would fill the bill. I think I also heard something about optimus, but i don't even know what that is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, Nvidia shield game streaing feature is NOT FORMALLY supported by Nvidia at the moment but it may come in near future. however, with the newer mobile GPUS ( keplet architecture based- such as series 600/700 etc) - u can probably try some other third party apps - ' splashtop + Droidmote combination ' - follow this link http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2506438 .
some i heard tried kainy instead
Am in a similar situation like you with a mobile GPU GTX 680M but i am waiting for my shield to arrive, so can't confirm whether the methods mentioned above are good for smooth gameplay.

I'm not positive this will all still work for you, but cgutman worked on making streaming work from mobile kepler.
Check it out: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2394478
Specifically this post might be useful: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=47843410&postcount=91

Aaronneyer said:
I'm not positive this will all still work for you, but cgutman worked on making streaming work from mobile kepler.
Check it out: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2394478
Specifically this post might be useful: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=47843410&postcount=91
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay guys, my Shield wont be coming until tomorrow. That said, I checked the above link, and it looks like someone got it working?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2394478&page=2
OMG!!!! It works. Credit to @cgutman!!!!!
Used the registry entry you provided. I am using a Lenovo Y400, that has the intel GPU disabled. It freaking works!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a Lenovo Y580 which isnt that much different from a 400. So maybe there is hope? Once I get it, i'll test it out, and maybe ask questions to things i dont understand

mobile streaming has been completely halted by nvidia in their latest updates. The only workaround that doesn't involve a 3rd party app (negating the native protocol support between tegra 4 and kepler) is to downgrade and then apply the reg fix. This also only works if you have a sole discrete gpu or can completely shut off optimus in the bios. poopoo to you nvidia.