Hi,
Does anyone know if there will be any perceivable difference in battery life between the latest batch of smartphones based on single core 45nm SoCs and the new 45 nm dual core versions.
All manufacturers state state improved performance AND lower power consumption with the dual cores, but I am wondering how this will affect my day-to-day battery life. I actually read somewhere that e.g. Tegra 2 phones may drain the battery quicker instead of saving power.
I was planning to buy the Desire Z or Galaxy S, but I may also wait for their upgrades if this will mean better battery life. I am not too eager about the performance improvements as I am not a gamer and will likely not feel the benefits (I mostly browse 3G or WiFi/use GPS/occasionally may play a movie + a couple of calls a day).
I'm expecting the battery life to be a bit low seeing that they have a "lot" of things in them.... I reckon it maybe the same as current smartphones?
Apparently battery times will be better, let´s see...
what i have learned that dual cores will save energy. (well atleast tegra 2) that soc has sth like 7 different cores if i remember right, each and every one of them made for a specific purpose (audio play/ video encode/ decode/ gpu....a nd other things i dont remember) so the soc it self will use only what YOU need at that very moment, lets say ur watching a vid, so only the video decode core will work whereas other should be in standby or sth.
(imo battery life should increase cuz of this, not sure how much tho)
and excuse me if my knoweledge isnt exatcly correct on this matter
There are two train of thoughts here:
1) as the die gets smaller (65nm[1st gen snaps] to 45nm[2nd gen snaps] to 40nm [tegra2] to 28nm[3rd gen snaps], etc), the processor tends to draw less energy. So yes, most dual cores (having a smaller die) SHOULD be more energy efficient.
2) With dual core, executions get carried out a lot faster than they were on single core. As evident by the benchmark done on dual cores (+2000 and up), it'll take less time to start/process a program and UI, in theory, should be a lot faster and smoother (that is if manufacturers don't start ****ing around with a UI and make it sluggish). Being that it's faster and a lot more versatile than single core, people will tend to youtube a lot, play games a lot, and generally use a lot more multimedia applications. Being that we don't have a self-sustaining energy source that isn't radioactive, the battery will drain from excessive use.
So at the end of the day, it depends on your use. Yes, dual cores are more energy efficient than single core, but in the hands of a 15yo teenage girl with more life than paris hilton, they probably get the same battery life as any other phone out there.
Hi guys,
thanks for the comments and predictions. My prediction would be that there would be hardly any noticeable change between the single & dual core 45 nm chips (given same usage of course), similar to how there was almost no change when switching from 65nm to 45nm chips - which are more energy efficient as well.
the better energy efficiency seems to be quickly soaked up by more power hungry hardware and software. so it all boils down to whether one needs the better performance as the battery life will likely stay the same.
But this of course is only a prediction based on past observation. I hope I am wrong and I am still considering if it is worth waiting for the dual core devices to hit the market. In the meantime if anyone has had a chance to play with such a device (tablet?), any additional info will be welcome
Related
I am a bit concerned about the battery life of the upcoming htc. The first reviews I have read about it on german blogs speak from 12 to 15 hours battery life under medium to heavy usage. Even though, one needs to remain cautious with these numbers as the software is not finalized, I wouldn't expect these to double when final.
The Incredible S has a quite satisfying battery life according to users experience. But the Sensation has a bigger screen, higher resolution, a full load of 3D effects and almost the same battery. I fear the battery life will be insufficient in that case, even though dual core is supposed to consume a little less.
Samsung has built a slightly bigger battery on his GSII and people seem to experience a very good battery life. But Amoled doesn't drain the battery when black is displayed and the whole UI has been designed in black for this purpose. So the Sensation will probably not be able to achieve such an autonomy.
Hopefully it will still go through the day under heavy usage. Otherwise I might gonna settle for incredible s instead.
Has anyone read other numbers somewhere?
eadred said:
I am a bit concerned about the battery life of the upcoming htc. The first reviews I have read about it on german blogs speak from 12 to 15 battery life under medium to heavy usage. Even though, one needs to remain cautious with these numbers as the software is not finalized, I wouldn't expect these to double when final.
The Incredible S has a quite satisfying battery life according to users experience. But the Sensation has a bigger screen, higher resolution, a full load of 3D effects and almost the same battery. I fear the battery life will be insufficient in that case, even though dual core is supposed to consume a little less.
Samsung has built a slightly bigger battery on his GSII and people seem to experience a very good battery life. But Amoled doesn't drain the battery when black is displayed and the whole UI has been designed in black for this purpose. So the Sensation will probably not be able to achieve such an autonomy.
Hopefully it will still go through the day under heavy usage. Otherwise I might gonna settle for incredible s instead.
Has anyone read other numbers somewhere?
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This is how I see it. Multi-core cpu's theoretically are more power efficient. You spread work over both cores, if software is optimized, to allow for less "strain" on the cpu. From what I can tell they are "optimizing" their Sense UI to run on both cores which efficiently manages the amount of power is being used. This now gives you less power draw hence power is saved. The battery isn't as big as some devices, but in my honest opinion I believe you will get a little more than 12-15 but probably won't get up to double that. This is all based off of my own conclusions after reading several articles. I may be wrong and if you need to correct me feel free. =) All I will say is you probably won't have to worry about battery issues.
So I bought the application
CPU usage and Frequency Monitor (dual core support)
It's on the market, and you can find its thread here at xda:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1160319
The dev says there a limitation for the Sensation, but I bought it anyway:
****** NOTE ******
HTC Sensation Owners
There is a device limitation with reading the CPU Frequency. I am looking into a workaround for this problem.
****** NOTE ******
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I asked the question in the dev thread, hopping for a fast answer,but want to ask here too:
Can we trust the CPU usage, individual for each core, that is displayed by the app????
This app displays, at the top of the screen, in the notification bar, what core is used, with one column for each core
So with our asynchrone dual core, one of the column is often empty, when the other can be half full, or full, in normal use, this seem to be OK (even if the used freq for each core is not read, as the dev says, but is the usage correctly read??)
But I noticed the second column, so second core, very often starts filling too!
I used to think Android 2.3 is not supposed to handle dual core, so that almost all the time, only one is used????
That was for me, and for what I've read, the big reason why we have really bad scores on every benchmark?
If CPU monitor is right, I can see the second core easily waking up when the first one is already full, sometimes just a little, sometimes 50%, sometimes 100%
INCLUDING DURING BENCHMARKS where CPU monitors displays both cores running at 100%!!!!
So what is true here? Is CPU monitor fooled by Android 2.3 and shows the second core waking up when it's not?
Or does indeed our second core easily wake up, including in benchmarks, meaning our pittyful scores will never be greatly improved since both cores already release their power??
Need more infos on these asynchrone dual core, the way they work and are supported by Android 2.3, what HTC did to implement this, etc
Not a single answer from a dev of someone with more knowledge than me concerning dual core architecture and the way Android can handle it?
I had an answer from the dev of CPU usage monitor:
The CPU usage information is abstracted in both cases at the App level. Apps just need to read the standard CPU usage information at the OS level to gather its data. Control of when and how the dual core magic works is not a worry at the app level since the OS handles it. Hope this helps.
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So...........
=> In normal use, the app shows one core only running, very low if no app running, sometimes when the first one is full, the second one starts working a little after the first one is full, 10%, 25%, etc, for apps requiring a little more power, everything seems very logical for an asynchrone dual core CPU (wasn't I told that Android 2.3 doesn't really manage async dual core???? When we overclock, don't we overclock only one core?)
But when doing a Benchmark, or playing heavy openGL games, the app displays that both core run at 100%, CPU at its max power for both cores!
So if it is, even with a better rom once S-OFF or better drivers, our bench scores will always be very low
I need this to be confirmed or not, if we already have both cores running at 100% during bench or openGL games, we can't expect much more from our Sensation :-(
I'd be interested to understand this also.
I appears that the Gingerbread doesn't support Dual-Cores properly.
Have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/android-platform/browse_thread/thread/b754408b9af17e55?pli=1
I guess we need an upgraded Kernel and associated libraries. I must admit I was surprised when I started looking.
I do not understand why people make a big deal about the benchmarks for. I mean does it really prove anything? For example the HTC sensation is rocking a. 1.2 processor and the atrix only a 1 but yet the atrix will smash the sensation on a benchnark. How, so I guess I'm just wondering
A. What does a benchmark prove?
B. Shouldn't a 1.2GHZ processor be faster than a 1GHZ
I mean the atrix opens apps and scrolls faster than the sensation. How could this be and are processors just a joke?
It does not prove anything.
The most common use of benchmarks is e-penis comparison.
It can be an indicator for somewhat improvements, but that is all quite relative and subjectiv.
Then what would show processor quality?
How good a processor is should be determined by its processing power, its heat production, size and power consumption.
There is no app for that.
For testing raw processing power and getting some numbers LINPACK is okay.
Dark3n said:
How good a processor is should be determined by its processing power, its heat production, size and power consumption.
There is no app for that.
For testing raw processing power and getting some numbers LINPACK is okay.
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so 1.2 dual core or in my case 1.56 would'nt necessarily be faster at opening apps and loading pages than say a 1ghz? or is it that is has more stamina? so to speak
I am basically trying to get the answers i know people have questions to. especially more so now than ever since the development of dual core. also now that custom ROMS such as revolution HD are claiming faster processing speeds but yet there isn't an indefinite way to prove such claims. so far it seems to be up to the user and opinion.
rddocke said:
so 1.2 dual core or in my case 1.56 would'nt necessarily be faster at opening apps and loading pages than say a 1ghz? or is it that is has more stamina? so to speak
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App opening speak is not only determined by CPU clock speed.
Cpu caches, memory, system buses.
Its a whole bunch of things that determine the "speed" of a device.
In my point of view android has not been fully optimized for dual core processing, and I expect to see an improvement with icecream or what ever comes after that. Also the processors build quality, reliability and productivity is very important. As for now its just a leech sucking on the battery.
DroidFreek said:
In my point of view android has not been fully optimized for dual core processing, and I expect to see an improvement with icecream or what ever comes after that. Also the processors build quality, reliability and productivity is very important. As for now its just a leech sucking on the battery.
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Exactly what I was thinking. Long term effects are what count. Consistency is the most important it goes hand in hand with battery life.. stamina stamina stamina
I was wondering about... Is it true if x64_x86 build (arm64) uses more RAM than just x86 (arm)? Considering this phone can't take any advantages of 64 bit OS (cmiiw), I just wonder whether it's possible to build the x86 ROM version of any available custom ROM out there?
I know only a little about theoretical of why it wouldn't be easy task / wouldn't possible perhaps due to its kernel only available in x64_x86 build... or it needs a lots of codes rework (since C++ x64 has additional instruction/data types which not available in x86), or its blobs only available in x64_x86... So, anyone has more convincing arguments about this task?
Hi x3r0.13urn
Just to clarify things: our Mi4c/s is built with a arm 64 SoC (system on a chip), and x86 means a different processor architecture (like computer cpu's) so there are 4 (common) cpu architectures:
"Normal" CPU: x86 (32 bit) and x64 (64bit)
"Mobile" CPU: Arm (32bit) and Arm64 (64bit)
So your question is, if it would have any benefits building an arm (32 bit) kernel/rom/Firmware for our arm64 Mi4c/s.
As the CPU itself is made for Arm64 i think there are lots of optimizations (things I, the noob, doesnt understand) in the Kernel/Firmware/Rom so it would be useless to go back to the old arm 32 bit environment (DEV's correct me if i'm wrong).
An idea of mine: Why not build an ARM64 Rom with small textures and low resolution? The screen would look **** but i think there would be many battery savings and more performance to use for other things..
Greetings
Wertus
I don't see why you need better performance, Mi4c is an already powerful device.
Regarding OP, there is no 32bit kernel developed for any msm8992 phone, as Qualcomm made it a 64bit chip and optimized the kernel for 64bit usage. So no, we can't compile a 32bit kernel for msm8992, and even if we did, it would be bad.
Regarding the smaller textures, a lot of Android is now vector graphics, and you can't make them smaller, and having smaller textures than we need would be useless as they would have to be upscaled to display them. The phone might even consume more power to upscale them.
I see... So, if it's true, the problem there's no x86 kernel source thus afflicts other aspects. It's quite shame... since even up till today, 32-bit only OSes (Windows, *nix) are still available.
I agree on, yes SD 808 packs a punch to withstand today's need. Regarding about textures, I take it we're talking about resolution downscaling (from 1080p to 720p?), would save few MiB of RAM usage, and it will also lower CPU usage, though in my personal experiences, it won't prolong battery life very much.
x3r0.13urn said:
I see... So, if it's true, the problem there's no x86 kernel source thus afflicts other aspects. It's quite shame... since even up till today, 32-bit only OSes (Windows, *nix) are still available.
I agree on, yes SD 808 packs a punch to withstand today's need. Regarding about textures, I take it we're talking about resolution downscaling (from 1080p to 720p?), would save few MiB of RAM usage, and it will also lower CPU usage, though in my personal experiences, it won't prolong battery life very much.
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Windows and Linux distros must run on a lot of machines, and be compatible with all.
The Linux kernel found in a Android device is much different, as it targets one specific chipset, which in this case 64bit. Also, 64bit is overall much better than 32bit, the only drawbacks being RAM usage(but the differences are really small!).
No, I was talking with the other guy which mentioned using lower textures.
About lowering resolution, it can actually get worse. In games where FPS isn't locked CPU can become a bottleneck, because GPU has less work to do and therefore it can finish it faster, then it requests more data from the CPU, and so on, until the CPU can't keep up.
Overall you can't really improve this device much on the speed side of things, and ROM developers try to improve battery life already. The problem is that users use their devices in various ways and you can't make everyone happy.
So yeah, we do our best to optimise stuff and if it hasn't been done then it can't be done or it doesn't improve anything.
Cozzmy13 said:
No, I was talking with the other guy which mentioned using lower textures.
Overall you can't really improve this device much on the speed side of things, and ROM developers try to improve battery life already. The problem is that users use their devices in various ways and you can't make everyone happy.
So yeah, we do our best to optimise stuff and if it hasn't been done then it can't be done or it doesn't improve anything.
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I meant to reduce the resolution (sry, explained it wrong with textures).
Well, i guess a lot of people want to use the Hardware they have (why 720p if u can use 1080p "to show ur friends"?)
I just wonder if one could compile- lets say- an HTC desire HD rom, which works fluently at 700mhz with a single core cpu (and even an old one). So you could adjust the governor settings of the mi4c (with a better optimized cpu, gpu, bigger battery...) and get an incredible battery.
I understand that this is not wanted from most of the users because u have an old system, missing many functions and u cant use your new device to the full excess because of the software.
But to use this rom when i dont have the chance to charge my mobile for 3-5days (with multirom) would be great (if that works how i imagine it).
Edit: And yes, the mi4c is very nice for performance, just the bat could be better
With regards to the battery: unfortunately for the short term, the solution is to buy an external battery (i.e. power bank), or do "extreme" things like switching on aeroplane mode, dim screen, powersave governor, etc.
In the medium term, there are things developers can do. However this work is very detailed and requires lots of testing. There's plenty of tweaks one can make with the CPU core load balancing, voltages, frequencies etc. It's difficult because there are so many knobs to twiddle, and so many ways to make things worse.
terence.tan said:
With regards to the battery: unfortunately for the short term, the solution is to buy an external battery (i.e. power bank), or do "extreme" things like switching on aeroplane mode, dim screen, powersave governor, etc.
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Well, with all connections shut down (except for mobile network, without mobile data) it holds about 2 days (i'm still taking pictures and phoning), which's not bad. i also use my own governor values (gave me the most).
But where to charge the power bank (they are empty fast on festivals..)? xD
Thx for your explanation/help, but i think i'll just end up attaching a stronger battery to my one x (which holds around 1.5-2 days with same usage).
Do you know if i need to adjust any kernel parameters for a new bat (i dont think so)?
wertus33333 said:
Well, with all connections shut down (except for mobile network, without mobile data) it holds about 2 days (i'm still taking pictures and phoning), which's not bad. i also use my own governor values (gave me the most).
But where to charge the power bank (they are empty fast on festivals..)? xD
Thx for your explanation/help, but i think i'll just end up attaching a stronger battery to my one x (which holds around 1.5-2 days with same usage).
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Yeah. I'm not sure that there's a lot more you can do, without a developer actually running a profile on your phone to see what's drawing power.
Along the same lines, performance is important. We have a concept called "race to sleep", which means that the phone runs faster for a shorter time, then can go to idle. This saves power.
One strategy is to use hardware acceleration where possible. For example, using crypto hardware instead of in software. This is one example of a medium-term project that requires lots of testing, because if you get crypto wrong, you can lose your data...
wertus33333 said:
Do you know if i need to adjust any kernel parameters for a new bat (i dont think so)?
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I'd just try it and see if it auto-detects.
Re: aeroplane mode and power saving. Here's the quote I was looking for:
During its research for Project Volta, Google took a Nexus 5 and put it in airplane mode and measured how long it took to die with the screen off. In normal use, the device struggles to last a full day, but while idling like this, it lasted a full month. The takeaway was that if you can just get the phone to stop doing stuff, your battery life will greatly increase. After this research, it's no surprise to see Google focusing on deeper sleep modes.
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Source: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...permission-controls-fingerprint-api-and-more/
This is what I mean by, with a persistent developer who looks for all the details, you can get results like above...
terence.tan said:
Re: aeroplane mode and power saving. Here's the quote I was looking for:
Source: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...permission-controls-fingerprint-api-and-more/
This is what I mean by, with a persistent developer who looks for all the details, you can get results like above...
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My op2 holds around 3 weeks if i only use it as an alarm in the morning (with some minor tweaks, without gapps).
What really made me think is that the op2 with its 5.5" screen and a 3300mah bat gets around 10h SoT (lowest brightness, just idling) and the mi4s with its 3260mah and 5" screen only about 4h SoT (lowest brightness, idling).
Its not that hard to get results like in your link if you adjust the gov to just keep cpu load on the lowest possible. I also got 2 weeks with an SGS plus just idling around, but when i use it to browse the web its empty in 30mins xD.
I know i made some negative posts on the htc u11 but tbh i love this phone and i was just feeling annoyed by some things.. But i wanted to ask, i expected this phone to be lag free and super fast, yes it is super fast abd smooth but the thing is that it does lag with me and it is noticable. Happens a couple of times a day i think, am i the only one having lag problems? I do have the power saving option on and idk if it's what's causing the phone to lag or not but all i know is it does lag with me and it is unexpected since this phone has htc sense and snapdragon 835. Share your thoughts below
Not just lag but freeze
I'll share my thoughts : you should really stop openning these threads because actually no one believes you, we're all aware that you're here to throw up on this phone.
For who ? We don't know.
Maybe a simple Samsung fanboy who's upset because HTC made a better phone than Samsung's flagships two years in a row ?
Now stop please, it's not funny and it will not prevent people to buy the U11 if they want to.
I don't see Samsung logo on front... Soo no lag here.
Dejan Kruljac said:
I don't see Samsung logo on front... Soo no lag here.
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Turn off the power saver. It's not needed with the Snapdragon 835 and it alters the distribution of the load between the clusters. Things that would complete swiftly and thus conserve power on the big cores gets offloaded to the little cores. The kernel isn't optimized to take advantage of the efficiency of the 835. With it being incredibly easy to get 7 hours of SoT, there is no need for the power saver. Somewhere on XDA there's a very detailed explanation as to what the power saver does and why it shouldn't be used unless your phone is about to die but it curbs both clock speeds and shuffles around the load, preferring to not use the big cores at all. It basically abolishes the efficiency of the big.LITTLE premise and often has opposite the intended effect if you're actively using the phone.
If you need optimization, you can use Boost+ to set individual high drain apps up to be run in 1080p, limit background usage, etc. This is much more effective than essentially killing the performance of the phone and gaining little, if any, additional battery life. It can have the opposite effect and in fact did so on the 10.
Think of it like this - the little cluster may take half the power per cycle than the big cluster (I don't know the exact numbers and highly doubt it's anywhere near half but it works for the example). You open an app that would have completed in a single cycle on the big cluster. That same app can take four to five cycles on the little cluster. You've just thrown efficiency out the window.
If you have a lot of background apps misbehaving and a lot of apps constantly syncing, it can be advantageous but I haven't seen any evidence of that since the Snapdragon 820. The 805 in my Nexus 6 benefited from it but my Note 5 with the Exynos 7420 and my 10 with the Snapdragon 820 suffered.
Lag?? OP must be in the wrong forum. Please go back to your Lagsung S8..
I had freezes on my previous HTC(one m7), and the reason was some crappy game I installed. After removal - no lag at all. Just try and revise your applications and remove ones you have doubts
0 lag. None, Nada, zilch. Either the person who started this post has an app or setting that is causing it or they are intentionally trying to keep people from buying it...Which seems crazy...who would care that much...?